Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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RileyXY1

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Thinking about it, it does seem like this pass is trying to skew towards being a little bit more marketable to children. Being completely honest, none of the DLC fighters from FP1 would be likely to get a kid excited based on identity alone:
  • Joker is a character from an M-rated game that can only be played on a different console, which isn't a problem for adults with control over their disposable income but could be problematic for a child reliant on their parents.
  • Hero is a character from a T-rated game with alts from games that were released well over a decade ago.
  • Banjo is a character from a game double their age that can only be played on a different console.
  • Terry is a character from a series of games that were most relevant two decades before they were born.
  • Byleth is a character from a T-rated game with slow, tactical gameplay, something that may turn some kids off.
Compare this to Fighter's Pass 2, where both Steve and Min Min are from games that are:
  • Rated E10 (which, honestly, may as well just be E nowadays, given how easy it is to get this rating and how little attention people actually pay towards it).
  • Released semi-recently and still have some level of cultural relevancy.
  • Can be easily accessed on the Switch.
  • Have gameplay that was designed around or would appeal to children.
Now, whether we will see this trend continue throughout the entire pass is definitely up in the air. I'd be somewhat surprised if we didn't get a more retro character or a character from a game rated T or higher. However, it does seem like characters with some appeal to children may be worth keeping an eye on.
That's honestly what I think.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Thinking about it, it does seem like this pass is trying to skew towards being a little bit more marketable to children. Being completely honest, none of the DLC fighters from FP1 would be likely to get a kid excited based on identity alone:
  • Joker is a character from an M-rated game that can only be played on a different console, which isn't a problem for adults with control over their disposable income but could be problematic for a child reliant on their parents.
  • Hero is a character from a T-rated game with alts from games that were released well over a decade ago.
  • Banjo is a character from a game double their age that can only be played on a different console.
  • Terry is a character from a series of games that were most relevant two decades before they were born.
  • Byleth is a character from a T-rated game with slow, tactical gameplay, something that may turn some kids off.
Compare this to Fighter's Pass 2, where both Steve and Min Min are from games that are:
  • Rated E10 (which, honestly, may as well just be E nowadays, given how easy it is to get this rating and how little attention people actually pay towards it).
  • Released semi-recently and still have some level of cultural relevancy.
  • Can be easily accessed on the Switch.
  • Have gameplay that was designed around or would appeal to children.
Now, whether we will see this trend continue throughout the entire pass is definitely up in the air. I'd be somewhat surprised if we didn't get a more retro character or a character from a game rated T or higher. However, it does seem like characters with some appeal to children may be worth keeping an eye on.
One major issue with this is the fact that chilldren adore media meant for people older than them as it makes them feel like they're grown up too and fit in, this has always been a thing and kids have always been able to recognize Robocop, Xenomorphs, GTA, etc. Not to mention this is acting as if Dragon Quest is obscure and ignores how one of those alts just so happened to be from a character who appeared in a game that got a worldwide release due to France's aggressive fan demand in 2017. I swear, Smash fans constantly pretend Europe doesn't exist
 

Rie Sonomura

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Thinking about it, it does seem like this pass is trying to skew towards being a little bit more marketable to children. Being completely honest, none of the DLC fighters from FP1 would be likely to get a kid excited based on identity alone:
  • Joker is a character from an M-rated game that can only be played on a different console, which isn't a problem for adults with control over their disposable income but could be problematic for a child reliant on their parents.
  • Hero is a character from a T-rated game with alts from games that were released well over a decade ago.
  • Banjo is a character from a game double their age that can only be played on a different console.
  • Terry is a character from a series of games that were most relevant two decades before they were born.
  • Byleth is a character from a T-rated game with slow, tactical gameplay, something that may turn some kids off.
Compare this to Fighter's Pass 2, where both Steve and Min Min are from games that are:
  • Rated E10 (which, honestly, may as well just be E nowadays, given how easy it is to get this rating and how little attention people actually pay towards it).
  • Released semi-recently and still have some level of cultural relevancy.
  • Can be easily accessed on the Switch.
  • Have gameplay that was designed around or would appeal to children.
Now, whether we will see this trend continue throughout the entire pass is definitely up in the air. I'd be somewhat surprised if we didn't get a more retro character or a character from a game rated T or higher. However, it does seem like characters with some appeal to children may be worth keeping an eye on.
I do think we’ll get at least one more character from a T rated game. M rated, not so much, idk why but that’s just my intuition.

I think the Brazilian (?) rating for pass 2 was lower than pass 1; pass 1 also had “sexual themes” in the Brazilian rating while pass 2 (so far) doesn’t
 

Phoenix Douchebag

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Thinking about it, it does seem like this pass is trying to skew towards being a little bit more marketable to children. Being completely honest, none of the DLC fighters from FP1 would be likely to get a kid excited based on identity alone:
  • Joker is a character from an M-rated game that can only be played on a different console, which isn't a problem for adults with control over their disposable income but could be problematic for a child reliant on their parents.
  • Hero is a character from a T-rated game with alts from games that were released well over a decade ago.
  • Banjo is a character from a game double their age that can only be played on a different console.
  • Terry is a character from a series of games that were most relevant two decades before they were born.
  • Byleth is a character from a T-rated game with slow, tactical gameplay, something that may turn some kids off.
Compare this to Fighter's Pass 2, where both Steve and Min Min are from games that are:
  • Rated E10 (which, honestly, may as well just be E nowadays, given how easy it is to get this rating and how little attention people actually pay towards it).
  • Released semi-recently and still have some level of cultural relevancy.
  • Can be easily accessed on the Switch.
  • Have gameplay that was designed around or would appeal to children.
Now, whether we will see this trend continue throughout the entire pass is definitely up in the air. I'd be somewhat surprised if we didn't get a more retro character or a character from a game rated T or higher. However, it does seem like characters with some appeal to children may be worth keeping an eye on.
To put things into perspective, Minecraft is almost as old as Super Castlevania 4 was when Melee was first released. Calling Minecraft recent is honestly kind of misleading. It's just that Minecraft operates different from a lot of gaming IPs. While other games tend to get sequels in that time span Minecraft instead kept updating itself for years with the occassional spin-off here and there.

Also, a lot of the resurgence of Minecraft recently comes from the Adults who were kids when Minecraft was first released. It took the Popularity Polynomial route.

I don't see why people think that adding two characters that somwhow appeal to children means no M-Rated characters. One came from the idea that Sakurai considered for base roster but only could excecute now. and Steve is no trendy flavor of the month, no Pog guy, he's now on the same caliber as Mario.


At the very least, there's gonna be an exception to the norm here. Remember when people thought they the last Figher Pass 1 Pack HAD to be a Third Party? Yeah me too.
 

3BitSaurus

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Honestly, I don't see how anything that released in the 2010s could possibly qualify as "old" when we've just entered a new decade past that. Not to mention most of them fall under the same generation of consoles.

I do think we’ll get at least one more character from a T rated game. M rated, not so much, idk why but that’s just my intuition.

I think the Brazilian (?) rating for pass 2 was lower than pass 1; pass 1 also had “sexual themes” in the Brazilian rating while pass 2 (so far) doesn’t
I think I've mentioned this before, but Brazilian ratings are inconsistent at best. Don't take that rating for a fact, because it'll most likely just change if a M-rated game is included.
 

Guynamednelson

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Also, a lot of the resurgence of Minecraft recently comes from the Adults who were kids when Minecraft was first released. It took the Popularity Polynomial route.
It's also from people who were teens/young adults who played Minecraft in the alpha/beta days, back before it was the "cringe kiddy game", since it was more oriented towards them in early development. They've come back due to recent updates (the Update Aquatic onward) being more worth a **** than most updates between 2012-2017.
 

SKX31

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I swear, Smash fans constantly pretend Europe doesn't exist
One major reason why is that EU is constantly combined with NA in "the West" category. Yes, I do agree that that definition does not take into account the regional differences and what not, but it's difficult to really emphasize that when the speculation scene is heavily centered around Japan (and a lot of Japanese speculators think that America's the reason why a number of characters are picked) and the competitive scene is centered around NA. Also, there's a lot of similarities between NA and EU playerbases, even if there are major differences between them too (for instance, the EU one I'd argue leans a bit further towards the computer).

Honestly, I don't see how anything that released in the 2010s could possibly qualify as "old" when we've just entered a new decade past that. Not to mention most of them fall under the same generation of consoles.
TBF one could argue that a lot of games from the early 2010s (I'm looking primarily 2010-2013) could be considered at least somewhat old. Especially those that show the more stereotypical traits of the seventh gen (to borrow a phrase from a FPS youtuber when he discussed RE6 and why he loves it in a "So Bad it's Hilarious" way: muted hallways, QTEs, cover systems, turret sections, vehicle chases, explosive set-pieces, co-op, etc.).

Now that's going to be inherently subjective, but I think it's fair to say that at least some games from that period feel old(er).
 
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SharkLord

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I adore Celeste. Such a fun game with gorgeous visuals and music on top of superb writing that I've had to stop playing for a bit to think about what was said. It's an absolute gem of a game and I'd love a stage but I do not enjoy the idea of beating Madeline up
Maybe I'm just cauterized, but the concept of committing YEETUS MADELINE honestly doesn't sound too much worse than Ridley %$#@ING IMPALING LUCAS.
I think it could work. Giver her attacks and abilities based off of stage gimmicks, let Badeline do the offensive options but telling other character that they're not as good as they think they are and for her final Smash, she traps the foes in the scary mirror.
Yeah, make her a Villager-type character. Actually make Celeste in Smash. One idea I saw was to give her a dash of some sort that replaces a standard inpute (tilts, shields, specials, etc.), which I think could be an interesting concept.
 

BernkastelWitch

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Messages
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With four slots left, Reimu is the only indie with a shot, I feel, and even then it's a big question mark because of how Japan-focused her playerbase is.
I can kind of argue that the region centric popularity isn't too big of an issue. Terry has an extremely huge following in Latin America and Dragon Quest, despite being extremely influential is much, much bigger in Japan than the West. Banjo is also more Western centric.

Touhou has been around since the late 90's, believe it or not and has survived due to a combination of longevity and ZUN basically allowing people to make actual fangames, some of which are released in the West and on the Switch no less. Touhou is basically the oldest indie series to my knowledge with Shantae being a close second.


I can see a character more popular in Japan than other regions getting in with a combination of it being much easier for communication for Sakurai and Nintendo due to how things are right now and it's good business to cater to different audiences for Smash. I don't know, I just don't see the "Japan centric"ness an issue here because if regional popularity is an issue, we wouldn't have certain characters and it'd limit the potential Newcomer choices.
 

Cutie Gwen

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One major reason why is that EU is constantly combined with NA in "the West" category. Yes, I do agree that that definition does not take into account the regional differences and what not, but it's difficult to really emphasize that when the speculation scene is heavily centered around Japan (and a lot of Japanese speculators think that America's the reason why a number of characters are picked) and the competitive scene is centered around NA. Also, there's a lot of similarities between NA and EU playerbases, even if there are major differences between them too (for instance, the EU one I'd argue leans a bit further towards the computer).
Oh I'm well aware why it's the case, it's just irritating that it happens, especially with a recent example being more and more common, Dragalia Lost has yet to be relrased in Europe and likely never will, which goes against Sakurai's philosophy for at least 19 years yet people suddenly forget that
Maybe I'm just cauterized, but the concept of committing YEETUS MADELINE honestly doesn't sound too much worse than Ridley %$#@ING IMPALING LUCAS.
Celeste feels far more grounded to me, Lucas is obviously a tragic character with Mother 3 being a fantastically written story, but it's got all sorts of crazy ****, whereas you can replace Celeste with a regular mountain and keep Badeline as Madeline's inner thoughts and Madeline may as well be a real person dealing with real issues. Lucas dealing with an immortal fascist dictator indirectly killing his mother for fun and destroying his home with capitalism and consumerism feels less realistic due to all the **** around it, though obviously tragic.
 

BernkastelWitch

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Messages
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Y'know, random thought. The people that were arguing over Banjo and Steve as if it was a one or the other thing must feel incredibly stupid now, regardless of which side they were on at the time.
I still remember the great Banjo vs Steve war of 2019. So many people lost on both sides. In the end, peace was made for both sides as Banjo and Steve shook hands in peace before they Smashed.
 

spicynun

Smash Rookie
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Messages
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Thinking about it, it does seem like this pass is trying to skew towards being a little bit more marketable to children. Being completely honest, none of the DLC fighters from FP1 would be likely to get a kid excited based on identity alone:
  • Joker is a character from an M-rated game that can only be played on a different console, which isn't a problem for adults with control over their disposable income but could be problematic for a child reliant on their parents.
  • Hero is a character from a T-rated game with alts from games that were released well over a decade ago.
  • Banjo is a character from a game double their age that can only be played on a different console.
  • Terry is a character from a series of games that were most relevant two decades before they were born.
  • Byleth is a character from a T-rated game with slow, tactical gameplay, something that may turn some kids off.
Compare this to Fighter's Pass 2, where both Steve and Min Min are from games that are:
  • Rated E10 (which, honestly, may as well just be E nowadays, given how easy it is to get this rating and how little attention people actually pay towards it).
  • Released semi-recently and still have some level of cultural relevancy.
  • Can be easily accessed on the Switch.
  • Have gameplay that was designed around or would appeal to children.
Now, whether we will see this trend continue throughout the entire pass is definitely up in the air. I'd be somewhat surprised if we didn't get a more retro character or a character from a game rated T or higher. However, it does seem like characters with some appeal to children may be worth keeping an eye on.
Definitely hard to tell at this point, but I feel like we will only get one more M rated character if any. A lot of people have been predicting a large amount of characters from M rated series (Dante, Master Chief, partially Ryu Hayabusa, Doom Slayer, Gordon) and just based on the game's current amount of fighters from M rated series which is three out of almost 80 plus the fact some popular rated M game series became mii costumes like Fallout and NMH and even Resident Evil becoming a spirit event, I don't see more than one happening this pass. This is all just speculation of course and the next four could all be from M-rated series for all I know. Nintendo can be hard to predict.
 

TimeSpace

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Honestly the fact that Reimu is actually a very plausible candidate (though by no means a lock) is so surreal to me. Would've been heresy to even consider back in the Smash 4 cycle. I love Touhou so in turn I'd love to see her get in, and just knowing that that isn't completely ridiculous is a nice thought.
 

3BitSaurus

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TBF one could argue that a lot of games from the early 2010s (I'm looking primarily 2010-2013) could be considered at least somewhat old. Especially those that show the more stereotypical traits of the seventh gen (to borrow a phrase from a FPS youtuber when he discussed RE6 and why he loves it in a "So Bad it's Hilarious" way: muted hallways, QTEs, cover systems, turret sections, vehicle chases, explosive set-pieces, co-op, etc.).

Now that's going to be inherently subjective, but I think it's fair to say that at least some games from that period feel old(er).
Even then, we'd be talking about games that are at least approaching 10 years of age. And many of them are part of the previous console generation, so I feel like it's still fair to see them as relatively young.

Regardless, you'd have to jump through a lot of hoops to call, say, Overwatch (2016) and NieR Automata (2017) old.

I can kind of argue that the region centric popularity isn't too big of an issue. Terry has an extremely huge following in Latin America and Dragon Quest, despite being extremely influential is much, much bigger in Japan than the West. Banjo is also more Western centric.

Touhou has been around since the late 90's, believe it or not and has survived due to a combination of longevity and ZUN basically allowing people to make actual fangames, some of which are released in the West and on the Switch no less. Touhou is basically the oldest indie series to my knowledge with Shantae being a close second.


I can see a character more popular in Japan than other regions getting in with a combination of it being much easier for communication for Sakurai and Nintendo due to how things are right now and it's good business to cater to different audiences for Smash. I don't know, I just don't see the "Japan centric"ness an issue here because if regional popularity is an issue, we wouldn't have certain characters and it'd limit the potential Newcomer choices.
Tbh, Touhou is one of the few Japan-centric series that I actually see surpassing that ""limitation"". The games have become increasingly popular in the west over the years, so the question is whether or not Nintendo would have Reimu as an option in that context - we do know that ZUN would be up for it.
 
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SharkLord

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I suppose as long as Reimu has official games that have been released in the west, I think she's safe. Much like Dragon Quest since that series has been released world wide but has a mostly Japanese centric fan base.
Uh... Sorta? The way it works is a bit more complicated than the usual.

Basically, we have twelve official (That is, ZUN-made) Touhou games on Steam. This means that anyone can go there and download them. However, they aren't translated. This is because ZUN knows that the fans will just create a translation a couple days after release, so he just lets them do their thing so he can focus on the games. Basically, to translate the games you'll need to go to the Touhou Translation Center (Which is an entire wiki devoted to these things, mind you) and download the Touhou Community Reliant Automatic Patcher, or THCRAP, which will automatically patch whatever Touhou game you download to whatever language you set it as, provided McAfee doesn't throw a hissy fit over the patcher every time you try to play the game.

So basically, a good amount of Touhou games are available to the West, but you need a more roundabout method to download them. I personally see it as a point in Reimu's favor, since it shows the dedication of the Western fanbase to the point that the developer relies on them for translations, but I could see why someone might see it as an issue.

Oh yeah, that's right-Antimony of Common Flowers was translated officially. Maybe not the best, but it's still the first official Touhou game to get an official translation. So at least there's that.
 

BernkastelWitch

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Honestly the fact that Reimu is actually a very plausible candidate (though by no means a lock) is so surreal to me. Would've been heresy to even consider back in the Smash 4 cycle. I love Touhou so in turn I'd love to see her get in, and just knowing that that isn't completely ridiculous is a nice thought.
I want to say it's a combination of people realizing the idea of Touhou content in Smash isn't an utterly ridiculous thought and the fact that we already got a ton of long wanted characters(Ridley, K. Rool, The Belmonts, Banjo, etc etc) that now we're moving to lesser speculated characters that otherwise would have been glanced over or had people mock you for previously.

It's honestly good to see how our character speculation has changed over the years, which should hopefully lead to a good future for Smash and speculation.
 

TimeSpace

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I want to say it's a combination of people realizing the idea of Touhou content in Smash isn't an utterly ridiculous thought and the fact that we already got a ton of long wanted characters(Ridley, K. Rool, The Belmonts, Banjo, etc etc) that now we're moving to lesser speculated characters that otherwise would have been glanced over or had people mock you for previously.

It's honestly good to see how our character speculation has changed over the years, which should hopefully lead to a good future for Smash and speculation.
I think it's worthwhile to note that there's some characters that you'd never think to want until they actually get in. I never asked for Terry. Didn't think about him enough to want him at all. And here he is, and I can see what he brings to the game and really appreciate him being around.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Few thoughts:

1) I don’t think there’s a thematic thing of 3rd parties over 1st parties, nor do I think Steve and Min Min show a new attention paid to children. I believe they continue the “unique gameplay and content” that every challenger pack so far has abided by. That is- new character, new game/series, new stage, new music

2) Based on how they have treated indies up to this point I find it highly unlikely we get one as playable. While I know Reimu has had a recent upsurge in notability, I would just remind folks that she is still relatively niche compared to a handful of characters, especially given her lack of notability outside of Japan- something that hurt Takamaru, could have hurt Fire Emblem and Lucas, and shut down Ayumi Tachibana if I remember correctly.

3) While ratings certainly do say what to expect in a game, I think given the fact that Grand Theft Auto is grounded far more in reality than Metal Gear, Persona 5, or Bayonetta, especially even having a crime as the name of the game, I really just can’t see Nintendo execs picking it.

That is all.
 

7NATOR

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Steve is a Character with Global Appeal

I guess I could see Character that have more Western Focus, and Character that Have more Japanese Focus. If we have a character like the Former, I Imagine we'd see them at the Game Awards or so
 

Louie G.

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I think where Reimu’s biggest problem lies isn’t just that she’s not a widely recognizable character in the west, but that her games are not easily accessible to a western audience.

Localization of mainline games has generally been handled by fans, a practice endorsed by ZUN himself, but it makes it complicated for Sakurai to recommend particular games or introduce Smash fans to the series.

I think if you’re a relatively lesser known character, it really helps to have easily accessible games to let new fans experience the series when the character is revealed. Terry had a museum of SNK titles on the eshop to show off and Sakurai suggested several titles for people to get into the series. You could also compare to a hypothetical candidate like Arle, also very popular in Japan, but with several Puyo games properly localized and / or very easily available on Switch and promoted in Nintendo Directs (the SNK games were too actually).

That’s kinda the other thing, that Nintendo hasn’t shown any real interest in promoting Touhou. You could of course point to someone like Joker, but Nintendo’s relationship with ZUN isn’t exactly on par with Nintendo and Atlus, nor is Reimu realistically going to garner that same reaction from a worldwide audience. There’s always a chance, but I just think people prop Reimu a little too high up for what’s stacked up against her.
 
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3BitSaurus

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2) Based on how they have treated indies up to this point I find it highly unlikely we get one as playable. While I know Reimu has had a recent upsurge in notability, I would just remind folks that she is still relatively niche compared to a handful of characters, especially given her lack of notability outside of Japan- something that hurt Takamaru, could have hurt Fire Emblem and Lucas, and shut down Ayumi Tachibana if I remember correctly.
Momentary devil's advocate: out of those examples, Takamaru is the only recent one (Smash 4). The thing with FE and Ayumi happened in Melee, and Lucas happened in Brawl. Considering Touhou games do reach the west, at least, the mindset could be different here.
 
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SharkLord

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Honestly the fact that Reimu is actually a very plausible candidate (though by no means a lock) is so surreal to me. Would've been heresy to even consider back in the Smash 4 cycle. I love Touhou so in turn I'd love to see her get in, and just knowing that that isn't completely ridiculous is a nice thought.
Joker kicked open a lot of doors and Terry Buster Wolf'd them even further into oblivion. Plus, ZUN has officially stated that he wants Touhou in Smash in an interview that was held around April and released in November, something that gave a lot of people hope since apparently ZUN doesn't want his stuff to get to corporate-y and prefers to handle everything on his own. That seems to have been enough to get a lot of people hopeful.
2) Based on how they have treated indies up to this point I find it highly unlikely we get one as playable. While I know Reimu has had a recent upsurge in notability, I would just remind folks that she is still relatively niche compared to a handful of characters, especially given her lack of notability outside of Japan- something that hurt Takamaru, could have hurt Fire Emblem and Lucas, and shut down Ayumi Tachibana if I remember correctly.
Something I want to say about this is that Ayumi was from a relatively niche series that had only released on the Famicom, and Takamaru was in a similar boat, except by then the Famicom was that much older. Fire Emblem had an entire series, which I think is pretty telling as to why Fire Emblem was even given a chance at all while Ayumi was left out. Touhou has a much older and longer series than most indies (Re: 30+ games spread out across 25 years), which I think makes her more comparable to Marth than Takamaru. As such, I'm still hopeful. Or maybe I'm just really good at deluding myself
 

BernkastelWitch

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I think it's worthwhile to note that there's some characters that you'd never think to want until they actually get in. I never asked for Terry. Didn't think about him enough to want him at all. And here he is, and I can see what he brings to the game and really appreciate him being around.
I've always been a fan of SNK and I drool over King of Fighters and Metal Slug but I never thought Terry would really get picked especially with other characters into the roster. If anything, Terrys inclusion in FP1 really threw a wrench in most discussions but in a good way.



Tbh, Touhou is one of the few Japan-centric series that I actually see surpassing that ""limitation"". The games have become increasingly popular in the west over the years, so the question is whether or not Nintendo would have Reimu as an option in that context - we do know that ZUN would be up for it.
They have been blowing up in popularity and went from this one series Westerners only saw from viral memes and someone with a Touhou avatar on Twitter or Youtube to something that is slowly becoming more appreciative, especially when you have games like World of Warcraft, League of Legends, and Undertale referencing it, showing there are big name fans of the series. It's just a matter of whether Nintendo sees value in Touhou content in Smash right now or not. Reimu doesn't have the red tape certain characters like Sora and possibly Crash may have since Touhou is made by one beer loving person who basically admitted he'd love to see Touhou content into Smash.
 

7NATOR

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Nintendo I think had a Touhou Music license around 2015, and they were selling Albums I Believe, so At least the see the Value in the Legendary Music of the Series.
 

SharkLord

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They have been blowing up in popularity and went from this one series Westerners only saw from viral memes and someone with a Touhou avatar on Twitter or Youtube to something that is slowly becoming more appreciative, especially when you have games like World of Warcraft, League of Legends, and Undertale referencing it, showing there are big name fans of the series. It's just a matter of whether Nintendo sees value in Touhou content in Smash right now or not. Reimu doesn't have the red tape certain characters like Sora and possibly Crash may have since Touhou is made by one beer loving person who basically admitted he'd love to see Touhou content into Smash.
Yeah, the easy negotiations are a major reason why I'm so hopeful. It's not like Nintendo would have to spark a working relationship with a big third-party company; Heck, they can probably sort this out over lunch break with ZUN. The guy pretty much just leaved a never-ending basket of keys to the vault for fans to take, so if he wants Touhou in Smash, I could easily see him doing the same for Nintendo. Plus, Nintendo once partook in Reitaisai, so we at least know that they're aware of Touhou.

On a side note, I've seen some people saying that Nintendo would "support ZUN in various ways" if he put an official Touhou game on the Switch. Does anyone have a link to that? I've seen it tossed around a fair bit, but I don't know where it comes from.
 

Rie Sonomura

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If we wanna play the game of appealing to certain demographics... not including PP, Byleth or Min Min:
Joker - appeals to JRPG fans who grew up on the PlayStation line of consoles
Hero - appeals to Japan (DQ is a cultural staple there)
Banjo - appeals to the west
Terry - appeals to Latin America
Steve - worldwide appeal to all demographics

character that appeals to South Korea and/or China - ????
Character that appeals to a female audience - ????
 

Perkilator

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If we wanna play the game of appealing to certain demographics... not including PP, Byleth or Min Min:
Joker - appeals to JRPG fans who grew up on the PlayStation line of consoles
Hero - appeals to Japan (DQ is a cultural staple there)
Banjo - appeals to the west
Terry - appeals to Latin America
Steve - worldwide appeal to all demographics

character that appeals to South Korea and/or China - ????
Character that appeals to a female audience - ????
Character that appeals to China: Crazy Dave
Character that appeals to a female audience: Sakura Shinguji

Those were my thoughts.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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ZUN wants Reimu in Smash. I get that.

Jeff Kaplan wants Tracer, or Overwatch, in Smash.

Meat Team wants Meat boy.

Itsuno says Dante would be great as long as DMC is on Nintendo.

We can say the head of the game wanting their character in is great, however I don’t actually see how that moves the needle for any particular character when damn near everyone wants their character in Smash. Regardless of the reason, it’s similar to the “potential” argument- everybody has it so if it helps everybody, it helps nobody.
 

7NATOR

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ZUN wants Reimu in Smash. I get that.

Jeff Kaplan wants Tracer, or Overwatch, in Smash.

Meat Team wants Meat boy.

Itsuno says Dante would be great as long as DMC is on Nintendo.

We can say the head of the game wanting their character in is great, however I don’t actually see how that moves the needle for any particular character when damn near everyone wants their character in Smash. Regardless of the reason, it’s similar to the “potential” argument- everybody has it so if it helps everybody, it helps nobody.
It doesn't hurt them either. Getting a Confirmation that the Creators, developers want their Character shows that they at least have a Chance in Smash. If Zun had come out and said he doesn't want Touhou in Smash, Reimu being in Smash would be dead idea. Him saying he would shows that at least the possibility is there
 

BernkastelWitch

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It doesn't hurt them either. Getting a Confirmation that the Creators, developers want their Character shows that they at least have a Chance in Smash. If Zun had come out and said he doesn't want Touhou in Smash, Reimu being in Smash would be dead idea. Him saying he would shows that at least the possibility is there
At the very least, it opens the idea that it's possible as long as both parties allow it. Believe it or not, there are some devs who probably wouldn't want their characters in Smash. And Banjo was in a slightly similar situation if I remember correctly where people weren't sure of his status for a while long before Smash Ultimate showed DLC until Phil Spencer ended up saying "I like that idea" and now look.

The fact that ZUN wants Reimu or Itsuno wants Dante(Provided the games are on Nintendo consoles) in Smash is a big step up compared to other characters who we don't know or even for one reason or another, the devs don't want in.
 

Phoenix Douchebag

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Uh... Sorta? The way it works is a bit more complicated than the usual.

Basically, we have twelve official (That is, ZUN-made) Touhou games on Steam. This means that anyone can go there and download them. However, they aren't translated. This is because ZUN knows that the fans will just create a translation a couple days after release, so he just lets them do their thing so he can focus on the games. Basically, to translate the games you'll need to go to the Touhou Translation Center (Which is an entire wiki devoted to these things, mind you) and download the Touhou Community Reliant Automatic Patcher, or THCRAP, which will automatically patch whatever Touhou game you download to whatever language you set it as, provided McAfee doesn't throw a hissy fit over the patcher every time you try to play the game.

So basically, a good amount of Touhou games are available to the West, but you need a more roundabout method to download them. I personally see it as a point in Reimu's favor, since it shows the dedication of the Western fanbase to the point that the developer relies on them for translations, but I could see why someone might see it as an issue.

Oh yeah, that's right-Antimony of Common Flowers was translated officially. Maybe not the best, but it's still the first official Touhou game to get an official translation. So at least there's that.
Fans have to make the translations.
Next thing you tell me is that they patch the glitches too.

.....oh wait................

Also T.H.C.R.A.P?

character that appeals to South Korea and/or China - ????
Character that appeals to a female audience - ????
You might as well put Terry in the China Category as well, as SNK is also really popular over there. As for the Female Audience: Arle Nadja due to her series, Puyo Puyo beign a Puzzle series, and that genre is particulary popular with female gamers in general.


Honestly the fact that Reimu is actually a very plausible candidate (though by no means a lock) is so surreal to me. Would've been heresy to even consider back in the Smash 4 cycle. I love Touhou so in turn I'd love to see her get in, and just knowing that that isn't completely ridiculous is a nice thought.
Ironically, the late 2000 to early 2010's were when Touhou was its peak in popularity.

I think where Reimu’s biggest problem lies isn’t just that she’s not a widely recognizable character in the west, but that her games are not easily accessible to a western audience.

Localization of mainline games has generally been handled by fans, a practice endorsed by ZUN himself, but it makes it complicated for Sakurai to recommend particular games or introduce Smash fans to the series.

I think if you’re a relatively lesser known character, it really helps to have easily accessible games to let new fans experience the series when the character is revealed. Terry had a museum of SNK titles on the eshop to show off and Sakurai suggested several titles for people to get into the series. You could also compare to a hypothetical candidate like Arle, also very popular in Japan, but with several Puyo games properly localized and / or very easily available on Switch and promoted in Nintendo Directs (the SNK games were too actually).

That’s kinda the other thing, that Nintendo hasn’t shown any real interest in promoting Touhou. You could of course point to someone like Joker, but Nintendo’s relationship with ZUN isn’t exactly on par with Nintendo and Atlus, nor is Reimu realistically going to garner that same reaction from a worldwide audience. There’s always a chance, but I just think people prop Reimu a little too high up for what’s stacked up against her.
This is the issue i have too. , the whole accessible thing.

It's one thing for a franchise to lack popularity in a certain region, but to basically not even bother to give them presence in that region is in my opinion a qualifier for exclusion.

Banjo is a cult character in Japan at best, but at least his games were translated there. Nobody in the US is particulary Cray Cray for Fatal Fury or DQ, but at least i can go to a store and buy a copy, or go to the Eshop and download them legally with proper localization and stuff.

You can't exactly do that with Touhou, not without some extra steps at least.

I mean yes there's fan translations, but to use that as argument for actual localization is ******** in my eyes. At that point the franchise is basically a japanese exclusive with the fans doing the heavy lifting. and i know Touhou operates a little different from other Indies and games in general due to its Doujin status but still.
 

Blankiturayman

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ZUN wants Reimu in Smash. I get that.

Jeff Kaplan wants Tracer, or Overwatch, in Smash.

Meat Team wants Meat boy.

Itsuno says Dante would be great as long as DMC is on Nintendo.

We can say the head of the game wanting their character in is great, however I don’t actually see how that moves the needle for any particular character when damn near everyone wants their character in Smash. Regardless of the reason, it’s similar to the “potential” argument- everybody has it so if it helps everybody, it helps nobody.
While I agree that a dev wanting a character in Smash is really not something that helps or lowers their chances, what's surprising about ZUN actually wanting to do it is that he's always stuck by "doujin spirit" when it comes to Touhou, as in, let things go on a lower-scale, without huge games or huge media, IIRC he's even turned down doing an anime for it. So with those things in mind, being added to something as huge as Smash probably wouldn't have been something he wanted either, but lo and behold, it's all good. I suppose he's been getting more lenient lately. There's been more stuff like mobile games lately as well.
 

AmphabulouSnake

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I don't really get why people say Touhou isn't easily accessible to Western gamers when all you need to do is search "Touhou Games" on google and like a 1000 fan sites show up with plenty of english translated versions of every game...
When I got into Touhou (i.e recently) it took me like less than 5 minutes to find the games on a fan site.
Touhou games are the least "non accessible Japan-only" game that exists lmao
 

BernkastelWitch

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This is the issue i have too. , the whole accessible thing.

It's one thing for a franchise to lack popularity in a certain region, but to basically not even bother to give them presence in that region is in my opinion a qualifier for exclusion.

Banjo is a cult character in Japan at best, but at least his games were translated there. Nobody in the US is particulary Cray Cray for Fatal Fury or DQ, but at least i can go to a store and buy a copy, or go to the Eshop and download them legally with proper localization and stuff.

You can't exactly do that with Touhou, not without some extra steps at least.

I mean yes there's fan translations, but to use that as argument for actual localization is ******** in my eyes. At that point the franchise is basically a japanese exclusive with the fans doing the heavy lifting. and i know Touhou operates a little different from other Indies and games in general due to its Doujin status but still.
The games are slowly being ported over on Steam. You still need to apply fan patches on them but it is still a big step up compared to some other reps already in the game. Cough Lucas Cough. And there's fan games on Switch and IIRC, ZUN wants AOCF, the most recent fighting game to be on Switch but it sounds like either Twilight Frontier or the Pandemic delayed that a bit.

So you can get most of the games legally if you have a Steam account. AOCF has an official English translation too and it's far from the best and a bit cookie cutter but at least it shows ZUN is aware of his Western audience.
 

7NATOR

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Doesn't Steve appeal to the Female Audience anyway. Being the Best Selling Game on Earth, It must have alot of Female Players, more than probably any game represented through DLC...
 

Phoenix Douchebag

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ZUN wants Reimu in Smash. I get that.

Jeff Kaplan wants Tracer, or Overwatch, in Smash.

Meat Team wants Meat boy.

Itsuno says Dante would be great as long as DMC is on Nintendo.

We can say the head of the game wanting their character in is great, however I don’t actually see how that moves the needle for any particular character when damn near everyone wants their character in Smash. Regardless of the reason, it’s similar to the “potential” argument- everybody has it so if it helps everybody, it helps nobody.
Now this makes me bring a question.

Is there any developer in the world that doesn't want their character(s) in Smash?

Every single time someone ask this question, it feels like the answer is already answered before it's even brought up.
 

Louie G.

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I don't really get why people say Touhou isn't easily accessible to Western gamers when all you need to do is search "Touhou Games" on google and like a 1000 fan sites show up with plenty of english translated versions of every game...
When I got into Touhou (i.e recently) it took me like less than 5 minutes to find the games on a fan site.
Touhou games are the least "non accessible Japan-only" game that exists lmao
Because Nintendo isn’t going to endorse fan translated english patches when they’re too busy taking down all the ROMS, patches and fangames of their own franchises.
 
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