Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think that the notion that Grand Theft Auto is on a whole 'nother level is objectively false; The series as a whole is still rated M, not AO. It may be more grounded in realism than Metal Gear, Persona 5, and Bayonetta, but imo, that's superfluous.

If they can make it work without raising the game's age rating, then it's fair game as far as I'm concerned.

EDIT: I personally don't have an attachment to the series, but I disagree that there's any evidence to suggest that they are impossible additions. Unlikely sure, but impossible? No.

 

[Will]

I think people are saying GTA won't get in for the wrong reasons. It isn't because of its origins, its grounded realism, what a character can or can't do, its mature origins, or any of that **** that's already been proven to not have any significance to your inclusion in Smash Bros.

If anything it's because the last GTA on a Nintendo system was in 2009 and it wasn't even a mainline series game, it was just Chinatown Wars.

I think the Switch can run GTA 5 since it's a 2013 game and it was on the 360 and PS3, it's just that Rockstar never seemed to have interest to pump these things on Nintendo consoles at all, they haven't put anything up since the Wii era. But we've already had characters who have either scarcely appeared or never appeared on Nintendo systems, like Snake, Cloud, and Joker.

EDIT: Since people haven't really responded I'll just go off another tangent. I could easily make a moveset out of any GTA character, it isn't very difficult if you have played and understand the games, much similar to Steve despite seeing many people say he would just be too clunky. The appeal of the moveset may not be for you, but that's subjective and also acceptable of your own opinion. However, your desires of what makes characters interesting has nothing to do with the fact that you can make a moveset. So a moveset issue doesn't exist either.

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

But Shantae has seniority over all of them and has 5 games while those guys only have one. Popularity isn't the only factor in inclusion decision. Not saying Shantae is going to happen, but she has seniority and moveset potential to be chosen over the rest to be the Indie rep despite her games not being as popular.

I disagree there. I never got how some Shantae fans put her on this high pedestal for having seniority when she's been pretty niche/obscure for half the series' life. Took around the 3rd game in 2014 for the games to pick up some steam. Her having 5 games also doesn't seem like a good justification for her to be chosen over a game like Undertale, which made more of an impact than all Shantae games combined.

In a battle of priority Undertale would always win imo. Tho since a character form that game can be considered disconfirmed because of the Sans costume, I'd also like to point at Hollow Knight, which may not be on Undertale levels of succes and popularity but still gives the whole Shantae franchise a run for its money.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Please. Enough about the "moveset potential." Everyone has moveset potential, how much of it is purely subjective and has no bearings on Nintendo's decisions. And don't you pull the Sakurai quote on me, either. Sakurai just makes crazy movesets with what Nintendo gives him. He won't pass over a character for being "too boring" or whatever-If anything, he's pass over a character for being too much for him to handle.

Bottom line, stop using "moveset potential" as a plus for likeliness.

Shantae is a half genie that can transform into different animals and can use spells. If she got in, there would be no one like her on the roster. She has amazing moveset potential to go off of.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Shantae is a half genie that can transform into different animals and can use spells. If she got in, there would be no one like her on the roster. She has amazing moveset potential to go off of.

People know that.

But he's saying that moveset potential isn't inherently something that makes a character more likely.

Shantae's potential moveset does not impact her chances of being included.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

People know that.

But he's saying that moveset potential isn't inherently something that makes a character more likely.

Shantae's potential moveset does not impact her chances of being included.

Maybe, maybe not. But Sakurai could choose her over the others because of her amazing moveset potential. She definitely shouldn't be written off just because her games don't sell as well as Shovel Knight, Undertale, or Cuphead.

 

[Will]

Maybe, maybe not. But Sakurai could choose her over the others because of her amazing moveset potential. She definitely shouldn't be written off just because her games don't sell as well as Shovel Knight, Undertale, or Cuphead.

But should she be written in solely because of this moveset potential? This thing's running in circles but you gotta at least leave the argument with a certain answer instead of a "maybe".

 

[GoodGrief741]

I would argue that GTA is likely to be as controversial today than it was previously because we've gone from parents who are terrified of its impact on the world to people pointing out that GTA has some genuinely mean spirited and very problematic notions of what it uses to try and make its humor with. GTA is very stuck in the early 2000s culture of gaming it feels like, and that's generally for the worse, and a lot of that stuff is increasingly being rightfully called out as an issue. It's a movement in the controversy that I think has the potential Rockstar tries to make a GTA game. I think a sequel to a game that has sold over 100 million units with as much problematic **** as GTAV had would garner a lot of attention and likely criticism. And the same parents that criticized it in the past are still going to largely be around and new ones will still have issues.

But I just also fundamentally reject the notion that Nintendo is OK with Super Smash Bros Ultimate X Grand Theft Auto. We're not talking about fantasy violence and suggestive material that can be downplayed in Smash, we're talking about a series that is often incredibly grounded in excessive violence, murder, drug trafficking, assassinations, robbery, torture, sexism, racism, etc. GTA has grown so big and wide known that the second its name is said, those very specific connotations come to mind. The game is literally named after an act of robbery that can be a felony charge in the US and often carries pretty significant punishment regardless of the country. No Nintendo is not incredibly prudish as they once were and they've let M-rated games be toned for inclusion in Smash, but GTA is a WHOLE DIFFERENT LEVEL compared to anything that has been close to Smash. And I think that's fundamentally something that Nintendo would not be comfortable even allowing in any context in their E10+ Smash game.

Like the connotations of GTA are impossible to divorce at this point and you immediately bring those to the table with including it in Smash no matter how much you tone down the content itself. I think all that adult and excessive content also often times being so grounded in real world illegal activities just also pushes way past any limits. Like I don't think that M games are traditionally a huge hang-up for Sakurai and Nintendo, but I definitely see GTA as that one definitive never ever franchise inclusion (Mortal Kombat and Doom I kind of lean against for similar issues, but I won't rule them out like I will with GTA).

You can believe anything you want about Nintendo's standards and whether GTA falls outside them, but nothing in its current history indicates that they'd have any trouble with it. So let's leave it at that because this is just gonna become a circular argument.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

But should she be written in solely because of this moveset potential? This thing's running in circles but you gotta at least leave the argument with a certain answer instead of a "maybe".

No. But she has enough going for her to be worthy of a roster inclusion. Sells ain't everything and nether is moveset potential. Just because some of the other popular Indies sell better than Shantae games that doesn't mean they're more important/more worthy than her.

 

[Knight Dude]

On a more positive topic, what references would you guys want your most-wanted character to have if they get into Smash? Whether it be in their moveset or in their animations (including Victory Screens).

For me, I'd want Sora to have a unique character icon during matches, like the UI in the original KH games. Like, he'd still have his normal promo render on the character select screen and whatnot, but specifically during a battle, his character icon is a different render of just his head that changes like it does in the original games (one for normal, one for being damaged, and another for being at critical damage). For the "critical damage" one in particular, along with the smoke that emits from fighters' icons when they have high damage, maybe it can flash red? It'd exclude the loud beeping from the original KH games, since that would probably be VERY grating for other players.

Or if Crash becomes a character, maybe he can have his weird "victory dance" as a victory screen, or one where "missed boxes" fall repeatedly on top of him? Maybe if he gets KO'd via bottom blast zone, his shoes would fly up before falling down during the explosion?

Give Mega Man X a secret QCF move for the Hadouken. And an actual SRK, that's more powerful than his usual Up-B and goes higher, but can only be done with said input. For more obvious references, SNES style sound effects for his charge shots and lemons. X4 style after-images when he dashes. Oh, and a voice too, since MMX and Zero talk fairly often, even in the SNES games.

you know

I don’t see Shantae discussed much in here despite her topic being one of the top topics

She's a cool character, but not too many indie characters got more than a spirit. With Cuphead, Undertale and Shovel Knight all being bigger games. Minecraft too, but I don't know if that's considered indie anymore. Certainly started that way.

 

[Cosmic77]

Even though moveset potential plays a part in some characters getting in over others, I think it applies mostly to characters from the same franchise (For example, Spring Man vs. Min Min).

I think Nintendo and Sakurai care more about the importance of the character and their franchise than a potential moveset. To be brutally honest, I wouldn't be surprised if none of the DLC characters so far got in because Nintendo was thinking about movesets. Feels like they've been more concerned about promotion and recognizable names (and in Banjo's case, fan demand).

 

[TwiceEXE]

I believe that movesets influence selection in a binary fashion. That is, Sakurai either believes they can design a moveset for the character or he doesn't. I'm assuming that most every video game character could be adapted by Sakurai, and that it's the rare outlier when a character truly has no viable moveset ideas.

That said, when it comes to fans discussing potential characters I think movesets do matter. For example: I really like Tomb Raider. I think the series does deserve some sort of recognition in Smash. But when I imagine how Lara might play as a character it simply is not that interesting to me. This doesn't mean anything about her viability, it simply means that I would be more enthused about the character if she had different source material for moveset ideas.

 

[TechPowah]

Yeah Sakurai has seemed to not care about "what would [character] even do, though"

he's more worried about "are we be able to have [character] do it or not, and still be true to the source material"

 

[UnknownTemptation]

All of these indie discussions and yet this one keeps getting left out...hmmm?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

But Shantae has seniority over all of them and has 5 games while those guys only have one. Popularity isn't the only factor in inclusion decision. Not saying Shantae is going to happen, but she has seniority and moveset potential to be chosen over the rest to be the Indie rep despite her games not being as popular.

I'm indifferent to Shantae but she doesn't have seniority over all indies, it's always funny seeing people act like Shantae's the queen of indies. She's one of the most wellknown indie franchises, yes, but I think that name belongs to Reimu, who debuted a full 5 years earlier.

So I watched Higurashi Gou and it'd make me wonder about having a When They Cry rep in Smash.

Mainly Rena from Higurashi or Battler/Beatrice from Umineko. Visual Novels are games so they should be viable too.

God that'd make for the most meta trailer ever. Battler would keep arguing with Beato about who the next Smash character would be with all sorts of possibilities, being confident he's finally figured out the next fighter until Beatrice goes "I am the final Smash Bros challenger"

 

[ZelDan]

The only way I could see movesets affecting a character's chances of joining Smash is if Sakurai has trouble thinking up how to make a character work for Smash. I think this is why it took Ridley until Ultimate to finally be playable. Of course nowadays we see Sakurai pulling off Pirahna Plant and what he did with Steve so who knows how possible "Sakurai might have trouble making a character work for Smash" even is anymore.

that aside I don't think "Oh wow this character has so much moveset potential!" is a major reason or that big of a part of why Sakurai/Nintendo decide characters.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

All of these indie discussions and yet this one keeps getting left out...hmmm?

I adore Celeste. Such a fun game with gorgeous visuals and music on top of superb writing that I've had to stop playing for a bit to think about what was said. It's an absolute gem of a game and I'd love a stage but I do not enjoy the idea of beating Madeline up

The only way I could see movesets affecting a character's chances of joining Smash is if Sakurai has trouble thinking up how to make a character work for Smash. I think this is why it took Ridley until Ultimate to finally be playable. Of course nowadays we see Sakurai pulling off Pirahna Plant and what he did with Steve so who knows how valid "Sakurai might have trouble making a character work for Smash" is anymore.

that aside I don't think "Oh wow this character has so much moveset potential!" is a major reason or that big of a part of why Sakurai/Nintendo decide characters.

Sakurai's initial problem with Ridley is that he felt his vision of Ridley wouldn't fit well within the cast, nothing to do with his moveset

 

[Guynamednelson]

that aside I don't think "Oh wow this character has so much moveset potential!" is a major reason or that big of a part of why Sakurai/Nintendo decide characters

Who Nintendo suggests to Sakurai isn't based on moveset potential, but I think Sakurai wants characters to be unique enough to be in development for almost a year in this pass. Otherwise we would've had CP8 be revealed alongside Steve.

 

[Spongeboob]

All of these indie discussions and yet this one keeps getting left out...hmmm?

I like Celeste, but I don't think Madeline would be interesting moveset-wise.

 

[UnknownTemptation]

I adore Celeste. Such a fun game with gorgeous visuals and music on top of superb writing that I've had to stop playing for a bit to think about what was said. It's an absolute gem of a game and I'd love a stage but I do not enjoy the idea of beating Madeline up

Oh me either but she’s a tough woman lol. I believe in her. Maybe she could climb the walls that Steve builds? It probably couldn’t be a move used that often but it’s a nice thought lol

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I like Celeste, but I don't think Madeline would be interesting moveset-wise.

I think it could work. Giver her attacks and abilities based off of stage gimmicks, let Badeline do the offensive options but telling other character that they're not as good as they think they are and for her final Smash, she traps the foes in the scary mirror.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Man everyone is throwing in indie reps who have a good chance of being mii costumes while Yooka Laylee would need a miracle to even get a spirit. It's a shame because the Impossible lair was amazing and I'd love to get music like Queasy Quay Climb or Windmill Way Windy.

 

[PSIGuy]

the realization that moveset potential has no real impact on a character's chances is one step closer to the black pill that only cross-promotion and corporate agenda are relevant to DLC inclusions and that your most wanted characters have no chance if they do not fit into this cynical reality
oops i meant to say I SURE AM LOOKING FORWARD TO CHALLENGER PACK #8 AND THE WONDERS IT MAY BRING HO HO YES maybe it will be a new POKEMON CREATURE WOW

 

[3BitSaurus]

Honestly, I think Steve (with Minecraft's indie origins) is probably the closest we're gonna get to an indie rep in Ultimate. Unless they decide to promote Shovel Knight or Shantae, but I don't see it happening.

Quote is still there, but with the aforementioned two plus Undertale and Cuphead being Mii Costume'd, I don't think he has much of a chance. Neither does Ori imo.

With four slots left, Reimu is the only indie with a shot, I feel, and even then it's a big question mark because of how Japan-focused her playerbase is.

 

[PSIGuy]

If they added an indie character, I'd want them to make the most of it. Like all the DLC Fighters in that wave are premium and based on different indie characters/franchises, each coming with a song that plays on both the new challenge pack stage (Megalovania and Floral Fury would also be able to play on that stage) and as a general stage song.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

the realization that moveset potential has no real impact on a character's chances is one step closer to the black pill that only cross-promotion and corporate agenda are relevant to DLC inclusions and that your most wanted characters have no chance if they do not fit into this cynical reality
oops i meant to say I SURE AM LOOKING FORWARD TO CHALLENGER PACK #8 AND THE WONDERS IT MAY BRING HO HO YES maybe it will be a new POKEMON CREATURE WOW

I feel like there are more issues here than corporate cynicism,

 

[Arcane Jill]

The main problem with most popular indies that could be chosen for smash is that their fanbases tend to be quick burners. They tend to be super popular for a time but they usually fizzle out within 1, maybe 2 years. A character inclusion being dated and old hat by the time they are finished and in consumer's hands could be a disaster for their potential sales. I personally feel that indies that have already shown they can stick around and have longetivity (Reimu, Shantae, Quote, etc) or have just become THAT stupid popular internationally (Undertale) are the only ones the big N will feel confortable giving a slot.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

^responded twice to this by mistake.
This can be deleted. My Bad.

For the record, the solution to this is to edit the post, not make a third consecutive post

 

[UnknownTemptation]

For the record, the solution to this is to edit the post, not make a third consecutive post

Ok. Noted but it’s not letting me delete them.
Sorry, I’m still pretty new at this.

 

[osby]

the realization that moveset potential has no real impact on a character's chances is one step closer to the black pill that only cross-promotion and corporate agenda are relevant to DLC inclusions and that your most wanted characters have no chance if they do not fit into this cynical reality
oops i meant to say I SURE AM LOOKING FORWARD TO CHALLENGER PACK #8 AND THE WONDERS IT MAY BRING HO HO YES maybe it will be a new POKEMON CREATURE WOW

This post implies that any character that isn't crazy unique is a shill pick which is hilarious considering how Banjo is one of the more traditional DLC fighters.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Ok. Noted but it’s not letting me delete them.
Sorry, I’m still pretty new at this.

Yeah you can't delete your own posts. Best you can do is report your own post as an accidental double post, I've never seen anyone get in trouble because of such an error either so all should be well

 

[Evil Trapezium]

With four slots left, Reimu is the only indie with a shot, I feel, and even then it's a big question mark because of how Japan-focused her playerbase is.

I suppose as long as Reimu has official games that have been released in the west, I think she's safe. Much like Dragon Quest since that series has been released world wide but has a mostly Japanese centric fan base.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I personally feel that indies that have already shown they can stick around and have longetivity (Reimu, Shantae, Quote, etc) or have just become THAT stupid popular internationally (Undertale) are the only ones the big N will feel confortable giving a slot.

I dunno. Undertale is what, five years old and still super popular?

I'd consider that staying power.

 

[osby]

I dunno. Undertale is what, five years old and still super popular?

I'd consider that staying power.

Sometimes I feel like a lot of people in Smashboards consider anything younger than a decade "too new".

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Sometimes I feel like a lot of people in Smashboards consider anything younger than a decade "too new".

The rule is that anything younger than Pikmin is new and anything older than Yoshi is retro.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

0

The rule is that anything younger than Pikmin is new and anything older than Yoshi is retro.

I thought the Retro rule was "If I enjoyed it as a child it counts as retro"

 

[Guybrush20X6]

0

I thought the Retro rule was "If I enjoyed it as a child it counts as retro"

Not on these boards.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Speaking of Reimu, I am a little surprised that region popular characters when it comes to Mii Costumes aren't an even bigger thing. Maybe its a case where getting certain franchises for them wouldn't be worth the effort in Nintendo/Sakurai's eyes, but there's likely a ton of Western centric or Japan centric characters that wouldn't be that financially risky to have as a Gunner, Swordsman, or Brawler.

 

[Jocario Zero]

Im replaying Freedom Planet right now and it really saddens me that we will very likely never get any content from that game in Smash (Ultimate or otherwise).
I take a Mii-costume with the FP-Main Theme (this games music is soooo good). Heck, im 100% ok with spirits of Lilac and the gang, just give me something.

That game is so underrated it's a crime.

 

[Garteam]

Thinking about it, it does seem like this pass is trying to skew towards being a little bit more marketable to children. Being completely honest, none of the DLC fighters from FP1 would be likely to get a kid excited based on identity alone:

• Joker is a character from an M-rated game that can only be played on a different console, which isn't a problem for adults with control over their disposable income but could be problematic for a child reliant on their parents.
• Hero is a character from a T-rated game with alts from games that were released well over a decade ago.
• Banjo is a character from a game double their age that can only be played on a different console.
• Terry is a character from a series of games that were most relevant two decades before they were born.
• Byleth is a character from a T-rated game with slow, tactical gameplay, something that may turn some kids off.

Compare this to Fighter's Pass 2, where both Steve and Min Min are from games that are:

• Rated E10 (which, honestly, may as well just be E nowadays, given how easy it is to get this rating and how little attention people actually pay towards it).
• Released semi-recently and still have some level of cultural relevancy.
• Can be easily accessed on the Switch.
• Have gameplay that was designed around or would appeal to children.

Now, whether we will see this trend continue throughout the entire pass is definitely up in the air. I'd be somewhat surprised if we didn't get a more retro character or a character from a game rated T or higher. However, it does seem like characters with some appeal to children may be worth keeping an eye on.