Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Will]

Why fight as a tank when we have the e x c i t e b i k e r a c e r

give me mach rider or give me death

Will's funeral will take place August 17, 2019

 

[Vrbtm]

Why fight as a tank when we have the e x c i t e b i k e r a c e r

I'd rather have Mach Rider.

 

[Opossum]

You... you do realize that doesn't matter, right?

It went on to take influences from Banjo-Kazooie, at which point it went on to become a more successful franchise, but that's mostly because the PlayStation was a better console than the N64. The first Crash game wasn't well-received, relatively speaking. Neither was the second game. Do you realize that?

The first game sold over four million copies by 1999. The second game was the first Western game to sell over one million copies in Japan alone. To say it wasn't well received is some next level revisionism.

 

[Nquoid]

You... you do realize that doesn't matter, right?

It went on to take influences from Banjo-Kazooie, at which point it went on to become a more successful franchise, but that's mostly because the PlayStation was a better console than the N64. The first Crash game wasn't well-received, relatively speaking. Neither was the second game. Do you realize that?

Crash 2 also came out before Banjo and Crash 3 was 6 months later.

Also in what world is an 80% and millions of copies sold 'not received well'

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Logic.

The presence of an exception applying to a SPECIFIC case proves that a GENERAL rule exists.

So...you're saying that because of the one exception proves that there is a rule in place that will absolutely never be broken ever again? I fail to see how that's a logical conclusion.

This doesn't matter. Banjo-Kazooie is the game that allowed all these 3D platformers/collect-a-thons featuring anthropomorphic animals to exist. Conker, Crash, Spyro, Ratchet & Clank, Jak & Daxter, Sly Cooper, Gex, Blinx, Ty the Tasmanian Tiger, Croc: The Legend of the Gobbos, and even Tak and the Power of Juju all basically did what Banjo-Kazooie set the foundation for years ago. Even Donkey Kong and Star Fox fell into that **** for a game or two.

Ok what? How is Tak and the Power of Juju a ripoff of Banjo-Kazooie? It's got a very different feel and none of the characters are just anthro animals.

Also, Star Fox Adventures is like The Legend of Zelda, not Banjo-Kazooie.

Also Also, Super Mario 64 predates Banjo-Kazooie by two years. If anything Banjo-Kazooie is a "Great Value Mario".

 

[Vrbtm]

The first game sold over four million copies by 1999. The second game was the first Western game to sell over one million copies in Japan alone. To say it wasn't well received is some next level revisionism.

Why do you think sales matter?

They don't.

Also in what world is an 80% and millions of copies sold 'not received well'

Has to be at least 90% because people were exceedingly generous to these games back in the day. 80% is the equivalent of a 50% today.

 

[ze9]

Mach Rider would be so cool... Sigh.

 

[Us3inMN]

You... you do realize that doesn't matter, right?

It went on to take influences from Banjo-Kazooie, at which point it went on to become a more successful franchise, but that's mostly because the PlayStation was a better console than the N64. The first Crash game wasn't well-received, relatively speaking. Neither was the second game. Do you realize that?

The only thing poorly received was poor controls. Lack of innovation was also mentioned, but Naughty Dog wasn't striving towards an innovating game.

 

[AntagonisticGalaxyCetacea]

Because I don't think what you said about No More Heroes is true. I think that's an unfair and reductive characterization.

NMH """fans""" literally refused to play Travis Strikes Again and **** on it because it didnt have the same gore and swearing. But go off

 

[ze9]

Crash is more influenced by the classic DKCs than by Banjo. It's kind of the closest thing to DKC in 3d that's ever been published, I think.

Banjo was the pinnacle of classic 3d platforming though, Mario 64 is the only game in the genre you could say is better than Kazooie, and Tooie for better or worse really tried to push the genre forward.

 

[Vrbtm]

NMH """fans""" literally refused to play Travis Strikes Again and **** on it because it didnt have the same gore and swearing. But go off

Will do.

The only thing poorly received was poor controls. Lack of innovation was also mentioned,

Those are kind of big deals.

So...you're saying that because of the one exception proves that there is a rule in place that will absolutely never be broken ever again? I fail to see how that's a logical conclusion.

That sucks for you, I guess. It's perfectly logical, and I'm not gonna spoonfeed you why.

Also Also, Super Mario 64 predates Banjo-Kazooie by two years. If anything Banjo-Kazooie is a "Great Value Mario".

I don't disagree there.

 

[Us3inMN]

Those are kind of big deals.

Again, everything else was positive and Naughty Dog was NOT trying to innovate. They knew it was just another platformer.

 

[Nquoid]

Has to be at least 90% because people were exceedingly generous to these games back in the day. 80% is the equivalent of a 50% today.

it must be tiring moving those goal posts all the time.

Video games have always, even now, had a ratings curve problem. But at no point has a game receiving an average 8/10 meant a bad game, even during the 90s. There are only about 20 games that average above a 9/10 on the original playstation. And that doesnt include Final fantasy VIII or Resident Evil 3, or Silent Hill. All great games for that system.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That sucks for you, I guess. It's perfectly logical, and I'm not gonna spoonfeed you why.

/Sarcasm: Ah yes, the ol' "I'm right and I'm not going to say why". That'll show me the truth of your words!

I don't disagree there.

Ok look, being inspired by or even being in the same genre as another work doesn't make you a cheap knockoff and having a similar feel as a character already in the game shouldn't stop a character from being added to a crossover game.
EDIT: In fact it usually has the opposite effect.

 

[Vrbtm]

But at no point has a game receiving an average 8/10 meant a bad game

Who said Crash is bad?

Ok look, being inspired by or even being in the same genre as another work doesn't make you a cheap knockoff and having a similar feel as a character already in the game shouldn't stop a character from being added to a crossover game.
EDIT: In fact it usually has the opposite effect.

Why do you keep saying "cheap knockoff" this and "ripoff" that, when I never used those words myself?

You guys are fighting an army of straw men.

 

[Will]

Who said Crash is bad?

nintendo purists in the 90s

 

[Door Key Pig]

This doesn't matter. Banjo-Kazooie is the game that allowed all these 3D platformers/collect-a-thons featuring anthropomorphic animals to exist. Conker, Crash, Spyro, Ratchet & Clank, Jak & Daxter, Sly Cooper, Gex, Blinx, Ty the Tasmanian Tiger, Croc: The Legend of the Gobbos, and even Tak and the Power of Juju all basically did what Banjo-Kazooie set the foundation for years ago. Even Donkey Kong and Star Fox fell into that **** for a game or two.

Crash is a footnote compared to that level of influence.

Gex - Debuted in 1995, with the 3D sequel still beating Banjo by several months in 1998
Crash Bandicoot - Debuted in 1996, with his sequel also preceding Banjo
Croc - Debuted in 1997
Banjo-Kazooie - Debuted in 1998

If anything, Banjo kinda owes them?
And yeah, I'd also bring you the footnote of Spyro being alive through Skylanders for years while Crash was completely dormant. But oh, it'd totally be a **** move if Crash was in something without Spyro...

 

[Vrbtm]

Gex - Debuted in 1995, with the 3D sequel still beating Banjo by several months in 1998
Crash Bandicoot - Debuted in 1996, with his sequel also preceding Banjo
Croc - Debuted in 1997
Banjo-Kazooie - Debuted in 1998

If anything, Banjo kinda owes them?

Already explained why none of this matters.

And yeah, I'd also bring you the footnote of Spyro being alive through Skylanders for years while Crash was completely dormant. But oh, it'd totally be a **** move if Crash was in something without Spyro...

Yes.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Crash is just Great Value Banjo.

Who said Crash is bad?

Why do you keep saying "cheap knockoff" this and "ripoff" that, when I never used those words myself?

Great Value is a very cheap brand you'll commonly find at Wallmart. When you buy it you run the risk of it being a worse product due to cut costs. Saying that "Crash is just a Great Value Banjo" is the equivalent of saying that Crash is a cheap knockoff of Banjo. This is why people think you said Crash is bad.

 

[Nquoid]

Who said Crash is bad?

Why do you keep saying "cheap knockoff" this and "ripoff" that, when I never used those words myself?

You guys are fighting an army of straw men.

You can tell when someone doesn't actually have a leg to stand on when they start criticising the use of synonyms and saying that they hadn't used a 'specific' word before when everyone can understand the point of the rebuttal.

I told myself I wouldn't get too deep into a debate this time. So I'm going to ask a question and leave it there.

If we did get a bonus character to the pass, would we prefer it launches before February or after February? And would people who have bought the whole pass want to have some kind of discont?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If we did get a bonus character to the pass, would we prefer it launches before February or after February? And would people who have bought the whole pass want to have some kind of discont?

Definitely after February, and maybe but it's not really a fair demand.

 

[Door Key Pig]

Already explained why none of this matters.

Was that your claim in that Banjo totally gave helpful influence to the success of Crash Bandicoot even though by the time Banjo debuted Crash was just several months away from concluding its golden original trilogy or

 

[3BitSaurus]

You can tell when someone doesn't actually have a leg to stand on when they start criticising the use of synonyms and saying that they hadn't used a 'specific' word before when everyone can understand the point of the rebuttal.

I told myself I wouldn't get too deep into a debate this time. So I'm going to ask a question and leave it there.

If we did get a bonus character to the pass, would we prefer it launches before February or after February? And would people who have bought the whole pass want to have some kind of discont?

After February, when the Pass is concluded.

I mean... it's not like anyone would refuse getting a discount, but... unless that bonus character is related to a Pass character in some way, I don't see it.

 

[SonicMario]

I think the only Banjo and Kazooie-esque Crash game anyway was Twinsanity where it was a more full and open world at least in terms of the hub worlds as opposed to the mainly linear levels of the classic Crash games. And Crash for most of the game has a partner (Even if it's weirdly what's usually his main antagonist Cortex). It's decently beloved in comparison to most of the Post-Naughty Dog era though it certainly had it's mixed reactions. Though to be fair mostly because the game was somewhat of a rushed product that brought with it glitches and some places where things were obviously left unfinished (Like missing sound effects during cutscenes)

But other then Twinsanity, if there's any correlation between when Crash did something similar to Banjo after B-K released it's just as possible it's somewhat coincidental. I'd say Jak and Daxter (Which interesting enough was one of the franchises Naughty Dog moved onto after they let go of Crash) and Ratchet and Clank are more so the franchises influenced by Banjo and Kazooie. Though I wouldn't say any of those franchises is a "Great Value" version of another either way. Nothing wrong with taking a game concept starting with a few similar ideas that worked (Tag-team duo main characters, anthromorphic and/or cartoonish populated world, etc.) and giving your own spin on it.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Why do you guys even still talk to Vrbtm at this point?

Is it just fun to argue with someone that makes ridiculously incorrect statements, and then when you show evidence of why it's wrong, he makes up new rules for why your examples suddenly don't count?

He's clearly just taking ridiculous positions because he likes arguing. He doesn't even believe the things he's saying. Stop wasting your time with him.

 

[Vrbtm]

Was that your claim in that Banjo totally gave helpful influence to the success of Crash Bandicoot even though by the time Banjo debuted Crash was just several months away from concluding its golden original trilogy or

Yes.

You can tell when someone doesn't actually have a leg to stand on when they start criticising the use of synonyms and saying that they hadn't used a 'specific' word before when everyone can understand the point of the rebuttal.

I choose my words very carefully. You can't put words in my mouth.

Great Value is a very cheap brand you'll commonly find at Wallmart. When you buy it you run the risk of it being a worse product due to cut costs. Saying that "Crash is just a Great Value Banjo" is the equivalent of saying that Crash is a cheap knockoff of Banjo. This is why people think you said Crash is bad.

You've never had Great Value products that were better than name-brand ones?

I think the only Banjo and Kazooie-esque Crash game anyway was Twinsanity

Correct, and this was the exact game I was referring to.

Lo and behold, it's the best Crash game. I thought everybody knew this.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

You've never had Great Value products that were better than name-brand ones?

If there are any (and this could change between regions) I wouldn't know because my household is too poor to get anything else so long as it works at all. But there are examples where a Great Value product can be awful like the dishwasher detergent that just makes our dishes all grimy. There's a reason why people say "You get what you pay for".

 

[NintenZ]

Here's where speculation stands at the moment, from my perspective:

Spoiler

- Characters taken from Source Gaming's video, "Top 50 Super Smash Bros. DLC Fighters That YOU Voted For!"
- I could be convinced of the five characters in the IDK-tier, but as far as I'm concerned, anyone below is not happening
- The tiers were created a long time ago back when I thought Spirits merely "soft" deconfirmed; now, I think they're a hard deconfirmation
- "Other" includes any characters that appear in a stage's background, or in Pac-Man's Namco Roulette taunt (Heihachi, Prince of All Cosmos, etc.)

Yeah um, sorry to burst your bubble but about Dante: http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20..._demand_says_series_should_be_on_switch_first

(Also I highly doubt we’ll get the Hunter since we already have Rathalos and that seems to represent Monster Hunter just fine)

 

[Door Key Pig]

Lo and behold, it's the best Crash game. I thought everybody knew this.

Alright, you're trolling us, we get it.

 

[tenworldsguy]

Doesn't mean anything to me.

>enter Sakuri, circa the days of the DLC choosing
>list is given, many of the options are third party
>see one of your fav characters being held behind a massive price tag and a notoriously stingy company
>cough up the money because he's your fav, presumably with some reluctance
>decide to add another rep from that company because lolwhynot
>company still demands loads of cash
>instead of choosing any other character from the list, some of which are free, you choose that same company again

This argument mostly only stands for Hero and to a degree Banjo. There really isn't any other new Atlus series that could be repped in Smash.

So, can I just interrupt all of this to say that the Blitztank reveal for BBTAG made me think that a character from Advance Wars/Famicom Wars inside a tank could be a really interesting addition if done right?

Dunno, I just really liked that concept. I love my left-field picks.

Any AW fans here? What do you think?

I really like the idea of an AW rep getting in. If Metroid's original sister series got in with Pit and Palutena, then why is Fire Emblem's sister series (the one that paved the way towards localized FE and possibly the future of FE) denied even an assist at this point? I think an AW rep is likely as DLC for the sheer lack of content in the game, only getting two spirits. Shame IS is never going to revive the series

 

[Vrbtm]

Alright, you're trolling us, we get it.

Nope.

>enter Sakuri, circa the days of the DLC choosing
>list is given, many of the options are third party
>see one of your fav characters being held behind a massive price tag and a notoriously stingy company
>cough up the money because he's your fav, presumably with some reluctance
>decide to add another rep from that company because lolwhynot
>company still demands loads of cash
>instead of choosing any other character from the list, some of which are free, you choose that same company again

Tenworldsguy, insider and genius, knows everything in and out of every game company AND in Sakurai's mind, at your duty.

You. Know. Nothing.

 

[Predictabo]

For people not watching EVO, SNK and Namco dropped some announcements, KoF XV confirmation and Haohmaru is the guest character for Soul Calibur VI Season 2. Good news for Kyo and Nakoruru hopefuls

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

On the subject of Excitebiker vs. Mach Rider my thinking is why not both? Excitebiker with Mach Rider as its echo fighter. Excitebiker would have a boost mechanic while Mach Rider would have projectile attacks instead.

I could see an Advanced Wars character being pretty interesting. Especially if it was riding a tank. *Gasps* Incineroar could suplex a tank! I NEEEEEED THIS!!!!!!

Shame IS is never going to revive the series

Plot Twist: Fire Emblem x Advanced Wars. The proposal went like this:

Person doing the pitch (Pitcher): Hey, you remember Advanced Wars?
Intelligent Systems (IS): What about it?
Pitcher: Let's do a crossover with Fire Emblem. We'd call it Fire Emblem: Advanced Warfare.
IS: I'm not sure that wo-
Pitcher: *Shows a picture of Marth trying to figure out how a tank works.*
IS: LETS DO IT!

 

[Will]

Good news for Kyo and Nakoruru hopefuls

Wouldn't that mean moreso that Haohmaru would get in instead of Nakoruru

 

[MagnesD3]

It doesn't count if the character and the stage were added at the same time.

I would consider that an exception that proves the rule.

Well, of course, because there's not just one Piranha Plant.

Travis Touchdown is one of the only characters from an ultraviolent series of games that could be toned down without harming his representation.

Obviously, all the other characters wouldn't work in my opinion. They're violent in different ways that are inextricable to their character.

I consider Hero more of an Enix rep. I know they're the same company, but still. Square did not create Dragon Quest, that's just a fact.

Crash is just Great Value Banjo. He's redundant, and you can't have a Crash Bandicoot crossover video game without Spyro. And nobody wants the last two characters to be Crash AND Spyro. That would be lame for a lot of people, speaking as a fan of those of those series.

Phoenix Wright was in UMvC3, and it was dumb. It was an experiment that failed, and there are cooler Capcom reps anyway.

Grant Kirkhope openly denied Banjo as well, so other developers doing the same literally doesn't mean anything at all.

Doesn't mean anything to me.

I want Crash and Spyro..

 

[Vrbtm]

On the subject of Excitebiker vs. Mach Rider my thinking is why not both? Excitebiker with Mach Rider as its echo fighter. Excitebiker would have a boost mechanic while Mach Rider would have projectile attacks instead.

Because I hate Echo Fighters, and I hate the idea of Echo Fighters for unlike franchises.

I also hate the idea of Echo Fighters having extreme differences, like one having projectiles and one not. Kinda betrays the concept.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I could see an Advanced Wars character being pretty interesting. Especially if it was riding a tank. *Gasps* Incineroar could suplex a tank! I NEEEEEED THIS!!!!!!

Better yet: Snake down throw on a tank.

God, this is so campy that I really love it.

 

[Vrbtm]

Better yet: Snake down throw on a tank.

God, this is so campy that I really love it.

I don't think you know what "campy" means.

 

[Will]

I also hate the idea of Echo Fighters having extreme differences, like one having projectiles and one not. Kinda betrays the concept.

dude is right there don't be so loud

 

[Vrbtm]

dude is right there don't be so loud

Ken has a projectile, Ryu has a projectile. What's your point?