Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Vrbtm]

What happened to "Sakurai likes breaking rules, but he only breaks those rules once and never again".

I have no idea why you're taking it so literally. Pretty obnoxious. It's very obvious what I meant when I had said that.

Fan rules aren't broken. They're disproven as rules.

I'm going to continue to say "broken" just because you decided to be needlessly pedantic about it.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Fair enough, but what about after the fighters pass? Would there be a second one for characters from already represented series? Echo fighters pass?

If the hypothetical character were to be coming after the Fighter Pass, then that wouldn't be the reason why the 'New' sticker disappeared from the Fighters tab recently.

 

[N3ON]

I have no idea why you're taking it so literally. Pretty obnoxious. It's very obvious what I meant when I had said that.

I imagine it is pretty obnoxious when someone can discredit your argument just by quoting you.

And yeah, it's obvious you were trying to argue against characters you don't like using reasoning you abandoned on the very same page.

 

[KillerCage]

It was actually Snake believe it or not.

ACTUALLY it was both Snake AND Sonic whose supposed to be in Melee but came in too late into development.

 

[Vrbtm]

I imagine it is pretty obnoxious when someone can discredit your argument just by quoting you.

Deliberate misinterpretation is not quoting. It is indeed misquoting.

 

[N3ON]

Deliberate misinterpretation is not quoting. It is indeed misquoting.

Then please enlighten me as to how the statement that Sakurai never breaks rules twice can be reconciled with all those rules broken multiple times.

 

[Izanagi97]

Ignoring that one guy for the time being, I wonder what sorts of cool **** will get announced at EVO. I'm not expecting Smash stuff if only because we just got a new character around 4-5 days ago, but I am pretty interested in the other stuff.

 

[Vrbtm]

Then please enlighten me as to how the statement that Sakurai never breaks rules twice can be reconciled with all those rules broken multiple times.

Your attitude proves that you're never going to be convinced anyway, so what would the point be?

 

[N3ON]

Your attitude proves that you're never going to be convinced anyway, so what would the point be?

Stop stalling.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I have no idea why you're taking it so literally. Pretty obnoxious. It's very obvious what I meant when I had said that.

I'm going to continue to say "broken" just because you decided to be needlessly pedantic about it.

It's not. It's not obvious. Meaning is easy to misinterpret from text. What makes sense in your head doesn't necessarily make sense in everyone else's. Especially when you change your story to suit your narrative. Combine this by telling people they're wrong because of one part of their argument (even if it's missing the point of what they said overall), and you turn what would normally be an interesting debate into a frustrating cycle of saying the same thing over and over.

Also I wasn't trying to be pedantic, I was trying to say that there's a difference between us seeing a trend and assuming it's a hard rule and an officially stated rule being broken.

Your attitude proves that you're never going to be convinced anyway, so what would the point be?

There isn't one, let's move on.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Your attitude proves that you're never going to be convinced anyway, so what would the point be?

****ty attitudes didn't prevent us from talking to you, I think you can handle it.

If you actually have a retort, that is.

 

[Flyboy]

This is the song that never ends

Yes it goes on and on my friends

Ignoring that one guy for the time being, I wonder what sorts of cool **** will get announced at EVO. I'm not expecting Smash stuff if only because we just got a new character around 4-5 days ago, but I am pretty interested in the other stuff.

While I don't think there will be any Smash stuff announced like a character, I do think Nintendo will hint at something like a direct date. It feels too soon since Hero just dropped but then again E3 was a few months ago and they announced a direct last year.

I'm hoping for some new characters in other games, like some unleaked Street Fighter V content or maybe a new Tekken season.

 

[Vrbtm]

Also I wasn't trying to be pedantic, I was trying to say that there's a difference between us seeing a trend and assuming it's a hard rule and an officially stated rule being broken.

Not a meaningful one in the context of this conversation.

Now I'm going to go through the tedious process of why N3ON is wrong about every single little thing because what I'm trying to say just isn't coming through in spite of how obvious it all is. Oh boy.

Only one M-rated character?

Per game. Yes.

Getting Snake in Brawl didn't result in getting a ****-ton of M-rated games added shortly thereafter, because he only broke the rule once.
Then we got one for Smash 4, and now we have one for Ultimate. We will not receive any more, because Sakurai doesn't break rules twice.

Only one third-party?

Nope, that wasn't the rule. We get a handful of third parties per game, because getting just one wouldn't please the fans enough. This hasn't been broken more than once either. We consistently get increasingly larger handfuls in proportion to how hyped up the game is, but never more than we "should" be receiving. So this follows my logic as well.

Only one AT upgrade?

JUST Little Mac in Smash 4, and then Dark Samus and Isabelle in Ultimate. This isn't an example of a rule being broken twice as it is an attempt to get Super Smash Bros. Ultimate to live up to its name of being ultimate, so some allowances are given here and there to break softer baby rules like this one. And it's a soft baby rule.

Only one character with guns? (just because Bayo's are colourful doesn't mean they don't still fire bullets)?

Bullets don't matter. The color of the gun is literally what matters. So Bayonetta doesn't count.

Only one character without a Nintendo association?

Yes. Joker is the only one.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I have literally no reason to believe that this is the case, and you haven't provided any.

The point is that they were already in other Smash games, and that's why they don't count as examples.

Neither do you. The difference is that I'm the only one posting ideas, while you're just naysaying while contributing absolutely nothing.

There are over 1300 Spirits, the spirit board system, them having to make sure each spirit works, make a lot of spirit battles, the summon system, and the entire story mode. There’s no way they started them in 2018, they’re not wizards. It would’ve started earlier in 2017 if not 2016 since the project plan was finished at either the end of 2015 or early 2016.

Why don’t they count? By the disconfirm logic, Sakurai had no plans for them either. They even kept their old trophies alongside the newer ones when they added them. They could’ve done the same for newcomers.

You keep pushing your ideas as facts. Sakurai straight-up said he knew of DLC since January 2018, and he also said he wouldn’t add non-videogame characters due to licensing issues or whatever. That’s his only rule. He mentioned Nintendo appearances before, but he said he sees it as more of a courtesy.

I have no problem with thinking M-rated characters won’t happen, or that Spirits disconfirm, but don’t push them as hard rules.

 

[Door Key Pig]

I mean Banjo isn't even released yet so a direct for Smash seems kinda strange so soon. (teased at EVO I mean)

 

[Izanagi97]

There are over 1300 Spirits, the spirit board system, them having to make sure each spirit works, summoning them, and the entire story mode. There’s no way they started them in 2018, they’re not wizards.

Why don’t they count? By the disconfirm logic, Sakurai had no plans for them either. They even kept their old trophies alongside the newer ones when they added them. They could’ve done the same for newcomers.

You keep pushing your ideas as facts. Sakurai straight-up said he knew of DLC since January 2018, and he also said he wouldn’t add non-videogame characters due to licensing issues or whatever. That’s his only rule. He mentioned Nintendo appearances before, but he said he sees it as more of a courtesy.

I have no problem with thinking M-rated characters won’t happen, or that Spirits disconfirm, but don’t push them as hard rules.

At this point, arguing with the guy is meaningless if only because I'm pretty sure a mod is gonna get fed up and ban him again

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

I wonder if character 4 would be revealed at the upcoming Nintendo live 2019 Kyoto.

 

[Vrbtm]

There are over 1300 Spirits, the spirit board system, them having to make sure each spirit works, summoning them, and the entire story mode. There’s no way they started them in 2018, they’re not wizards.

I will bet $10,000 in money that I don't have that NONE of this took any longer than two or three weeks to write and program.

Especially the """"""entire story"""""" of World of Light. I mean, you're joking, right?

Why don’t they count?

Because they've already been in previous games.

Which means there's no debate on whether they could work as characters, because they've already worked.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Just something quick to clear up;

Don't talk about people being banned in threads. Send a report if you think the user is causing issues. Let us see the evidence. Sometimes multiple mods need to look at the situation. One person cannot handle everything alone.

Also, having different opinions is not an issue in itself. How one goes about debating them can be.

Actually, that's about it. Continue on, but please don't make comments about other users. Debate their points, not their person.

 

[N3ON]

Now I'm going to go through the tedious process of why N3ON is wrong about every single little thing because what I'm trying to say just isn't coming through in spite of how obvious it all is. Oh boy.
Per game. Yes.

Getting Snake in Brawl didn't result in getting a ****-ton of M-rated games added shortly thereafter, because he only broke the rule once.
Then we got one for Smash 4, and now we have one for Ultimate. We will not receive any more, because Sakurai doesn't break rules twice.
Nope, that wasn't the rule. We get a handful of third parties per game, because getting just one wouldn't please the fans enough. This hasn't been broken more than once either. We consistently get increasingly larger handfuls in proportion to how hyped up the game is, but never more than we "should" be receiving. So this follows my logic as well.

JUST Little Mac in Smash 4, and then Dark Samus and Isabelle in Ultimate. This isn't an example of a rule being broken twice as it is an attempt to get Super Smash Bros. Ultimate to live up to its name of being ultimate, so some allowances are given here and there to break softer baby rules like this one. And it's a soft baby rule.

Bullets don't matter. The color of the gun is literally what matters. So Bayonetta doesn't count.

Yes. Joker is the only one.

Getting more than one AT per game is a "baby rule". The colour of the gun is what matters. Saying multiple third-parties now isn't a broken rule despite you listing it as a rule Snake broke. Are these the points you really want to go with? You know you can just admit that you spoke out of turn.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I will bet $10,000 in money that I don't have that NONE of this took any longer than two or three weeks to write and program.

Especially the """"""entire story"""""" of World of Light. I mean, you're joking, right?


Because they've already been in previous games.

Which means there's no debate on whether they could work as characters, because they've already worked.

Two-three weeks?

Two-three weeks? For all of it?

I guess the whole game took five months. There’s no way they finished all of it in three weeks, and you still have no proof they would’ve done it in 2018 anyway. This isn’t how coding works, they had to make over 1,000 specific battles, make sure the story mode stuff works, add the assets and get them to show up, and test for any bugs. Coding games isn’t an easy job. Some stuff like adding the png files I’m sure was very easy, but they still had to code these systems and make sure they worked almost flawlessly.


They may have already worked, but so what? How does that relate to the argument that the trophies disconfirmed characters because of no plans for them? Trophies would’ve been hard for them to add in Ultimate due to all of the modeling, Sakurai said so himself, it being a reason they went with spirits. I’m sure a lot of trophies were already done before Sakurai started DLC plans since the game started development at least 2 years prior to release, however, but some could’ve needed more work to where they decided to finish them even if the characters were planned as DLC by that point.

 

[Vrbtm]

Are these the points you really want to go with?

Yes.

And because answering a simple yes or no question with "yes" or "no" is considered spam on this forum for some ridiculous reason, here's why the color of a gun matters: Because soccer moms don't want little Timmy playing a video game that has realistic guns in it. If they can design the gun in such a way that it looks like a colorful fantasy weapon, it makes all the difference to soccer moms.

Back in the day, toy companies would get themselves in trouble for making realistic toy guns for children, so it became a policy to add an orange tip to guns so that you know for sure it's just a toy. This is standard even today.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

The interesting thing about a fan rule is that it was never a real rule to begin with.

 

[N3ON]

Yes.

And because answering a simple yes or no question with "yes" or "no" is considered spam on this forum for some ridiculous reason, here's why the color of a gun matters: Because soccer moms don't want little Timmy playing a video game that has realistic guns in it. If they can design the gun in such a way that it looks like a colorful fantasy weapon, it makes all the difference to soccer moms.

Back in the day, toy companies would get themselves in trouble for making realistic toy guns for children, so it became a policy to add an orange tip to guns so that you know for sure it's just a toy. This is standard even today.

And yet, Joker.

Is your next point that soccer moms are fine with one realistic gun but two is ridiculous?

 

[Vrbtm]

They may have already worked, but so what? How does that relate to the argument that the trophies disconfirmed characters

Please explain to me how you can disconfirm a character if they've already been in a previous game.

And yet, Joker.

A rule broken once. It will not be broken again (until the next game, and even then, maybe not).

The interesting thing about a fan rule is that it was never a real rule to begin with.

What a stunning observation... Really makes you think...

 

[GoodGrief741]

Yes.

And because answering a simple yes or no question with "yes" or "no" is considered spam on this forum for some ridiculous reason, here's why the color of a gun matters: Because soccer moms don't want little Timmy playing a video game that has realistic guns in it. If they can design the gun in such a way that it looks like a colorful fantasy weapon, it makes all the difference to soccer moms.

Back in the day, toy companies would get themselves in trouble for making realistic toy guns for children, so it became a policy to add an orange tip to guns so that you know for sure it's just a toy. This is standard even today.

And how does this relate to Sakurai's thought process?

Because your logic goes: parents don't want their children to see realistic guns -> ??? -> only one character with realistic guns can join Smash. You're missing links between those two.

 

[N3ON]

A rule broken once. It will not be broken again (until the next game, and even then, maybe not).

I notice you didn't answer the question.

 

[Vrbtm]

Because your logic goes: parents don't want their children to see realistic guns -> ??? -> only one character with realistic guns can join Smash. You're missing links between those two.

The link is that Sakurai likes to break rules. But not more than once.

Please watch as Joker remains the only character with a realistic gun in Smash.

 

[Door Key Pig]

The link is that Sakurai likes to break rules. But not more than once.

Please watch as Joker remains the only character with a realistic gun in Smash.

How'd ya figure?

 

[N3ON]

How'd ya figure?

The ones that contradict his argument are baby rules and don't count.

That's his actual reasoning.

 

[Vrbtm]

I notice you didn't answer the question.

The idea is that Sakurai stopped caring, or he realized that soccer moms won't actually care that much either.

There's still only so much he can get away with, which is why no one instantly dies when they get shot by Joker's gun, and there's never any blood.

I WONDER WHY

How'd ya figure?

Sakurai isn't known for breaking fan-rules multiple times.

It happened once, which is just enough for people to say "See? Characters with guns CAN work in Smash!"

But just like Wii Fit Trainer didn't cause a bunch of bizarre characters to join and Piranha Plant didn't result in a bunch of generic nameless enemies to get added, Joker having a real gun won't open the door for other gunslingers either. It's not how it works.

 

[N3ON]

The idea is that Sakurai stopped caring, or he realized that soccer moms won't actually care that much either.

There's still only so much he can get away with, which is why no one instantly dies when they get shot by Joker's gun, and there's never any blood.

I WONDER WHY

This is a great point for why we'd get further gun users.

 

[Vrbtm]

This is a great point for why we'd get further gun users.

If that's true, do you think Nintendo is stupid? Do you think they only just now figured out that they don't have to have blood or anything? Why doesn't Snake use any guns? Why aren't there more gun users already?

Because they never planned on going any further than Joker.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

What a stunning observation... Really makes you think...

You say that, yet you continue to act like fan rules are legit.

 

[Vrbtm]

You say that, yet you continue to act like fan rules are legit.

My entire ****ing point is that they are not.

That is the exact thing that I am saying.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Not a meaningful one in the context of this conversation.

Except it IS! Your argument was that rules could only be broken once per game, then list fan rules as examples. I made the clarification because...

The interesting thing about a fan rule is that it was never a real rule to begin with.

And thus cannot be broken!

What a stunning observation... Really makes you think...

Well if it was common knowledge then why didn't you get it the first time!

But just like Wii Fit Trainer didn't cause a bunch of bizarre characters to join and Piranha Plant didn't result in a bunch of generic nameless enemies to get added, Joker having a real gun won't open the door for other gunslingers either. It's not how it works.

Nobody thinks that because X character got in that a whole bunch of characters just like it will immediately swarm the roster. We're just more likely to accept these kinds of characters in our discussions.

My entire ****ing point is that they are not.

That is the exact thing that I am saying.

No. It is the exact opposite of what you are saying.

 

[Vrbtm]

And thus cannot be broken!

Pedantic and meaningless. I don't care.

No it is the exact opposite thing you are saying.

So you're intentionally misinterpreting what I'm saying.

Nobody thinks that because X character got in that a whole bunch of characters just like it will immediately swarm the roster. We're just more likely to accept these kinds of characters in our discussions.

And I think that's illogical and silly.

 

[ze9]

It's not like Sakurai breaks rules, but only once (except for when he does twice).
It's more like he cares about keeping each batch of newcomers pretty varied so he'll usually try to avoid redundancies between characters. But it's not like Joker and Doomguy or a RE character would share much of anything at all beyond having a gun, so...

 

[3BitSaurus]

It's not like Sakurai breaks rules, but only once (except for when he does twice).
It's more like he cares about keeping each batch of newcomers pretty varied so he'll usually try to avoid redundancies between characters. But it's not like Joker and Doomguy or a RE character would share much of anything at all beyond having a gun, so...

Gun styles would be very much different, too.

Though I do guess it helps characters from other genres... including the RE crew, Doomguy and others.

Which brings me to a question: which currently unrepresented genres would you all like to see in Smash assuming the last 2 DLC are from these new genres?

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Alright. This discussion on fan rules is just going in circles. Let's just please move onto another topic.

How about when do we think the next Direct is coming? And will they reveal ANOTHER character in it or naw?