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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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I agree with people saying Bandana Dee's best chance in DLC is Nintendo wanting to push a new Kirby game in the next year. He's the kind of character I would place as more likely for base game (I was kind of expecting him before "everyone is here" was announced), but that wasn't the case, so instead of being a new addition in a $60 game he's now a $5/6 character by himself. He has to captivate the audience all by himself, which is tough for any character, especially if you aren't the face of your game. It would be a lot easier if he can point to a shiny new product and say, "I'm part of that."

It's hard to say what Nintendo even wants to push for the next year. It could be Kirby, Xenoblade, a third party collaboration, BotW 2. It could be something we don't know about like a new Ice Climbers/Tomb Raider crossover. We could all be thrown for a loop and get no more blatant "shill picks." I don't personally think Bandana Dee is super likely at this point, but if Nintendo decides they want to push Kirby like they've been pushing Fire Emblem I could see it happening towards the end of the pass.
Assuming we don't get the hot new face of the next game.
 

Garteam

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I mean... look at that chart. Roughly 65% of all Kirby content comes from just four games in a thirty-game series. That's basically two thirds of the content from an eighth of the games. And that's giving equal weight to one spirit as it is to one character, because all the "major" content is Sakurai-era too.

There's as much from Air Ride as there is Return to Dream Land in Ultimate. And you can say that Sakurai's games debuted a lot of the recurring elements from Kirby, which is true - but take the original Zelda, Ocarina of Time, and any other Zelda of your choosing, and that still wouldn't equal 65% of the Zelda content in Smash.

Not even Gen 1 is weighed that heavily. Not even all of "modern" FE is weighed that heavily, and that's like a third of the series.
There's a lot of problems with that chart though.
  • It counts spirits like the Warp Star, Whispy Woods, and Waddle Dee as Sakurai-era Kirby content even though they're from the entirety of the series. If you were to instead divide Kirby's spirits into "Reoccuring elements", "classic Kirby characters", and "modern Kirby characters", its likely that the modern Kirby spirits would outnumber the classic characters.
  • Similarly, a good chunk of the songs sourced as "Sakurai-era Kirby songs" are reoccurring motifs throughout the entire series like Green Greens and Dedede's theme or medleys that encompass both modern and classic Kirby games. Sakurai has also said in the past that he largely allows the sound team to decide which songs they remix, so that's which games are getting remixed most often isn't really his fault.
  • The stages are bit more complicated, but they're still not that bad. Green Greens, Dream Land 64, and the Fountain of Dreams all came when Sakurai made all of the mainline Kirby games, so that's half the stages right there. Dream Land GB was originally a Mario Land stage and was converted into a Kirby stage late in development, presumably to give a Kirby a stage in Smash for 3DS when he otherwise wouldn't have one. Likewise, the Great Cave Offensive started as an Epic Yarn stage and got reworked to not step on Woolly World's territory. Those two were not attempts to disvalue modern Kirby, they were last minute efforts to save other stages and give Kirby something. That just leaves Halberd, which was more likely chosen to give Meta Knight a stage, not to flaunt Sakurai's run on Kirby.
  • Marx is the most popular final boss in the entirety of the series other than maybe Magolor, so it makes sense he'd get priority to be a boss.
  • If there's bias for the original Kirby games behind Kirby, Meta Knight, and Dedede being the playable Kirby characters in Smash, then there's bias for DKC1 behind Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, and King K. Rool being the DK characters.
I won't deny that most of Kirby's content comes from his older games, that's an empirical fact. I'm much more hesitant to accept that this is motivated by bias though and not 20 years of development across 6 different games and the complications that come about through that.
 
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N3ON

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Look at all the major Kirby content (characters, stages, ATs, items, even Mii costumes). You know how much of it wasn't created by Sakurai? 0%. Nada. You don't find anything amiss there? It's just Sakurai not having had a chance?

Think about it, of course he's had a chance to prove impartiality, he's been off the series since before Brawl, and there are probably a dozen mainline Kirby games he didn't make by now. Even by Brawl there were five.

And think how many notable non-Sakurai Kirby characters there are: Bandana Dee (mostly), Gooey, Susie, Daroach, Dark Matter, Magolor, Adeleine, etc etc. Meanwhile the ATs are a generic enemy (Knuckle Joe), a very minor character (Chef Kawasaki) and Nightmare... who makes sense. And the latter two were added this decade, long after a bunch of other Kirby characters gained prominence. And that doesn't mean they're bad choices, but at the exclusion of so many more visible ones, they're a little strange and conspicuous.

Imagine if Zelda's ATs were a Stalfos, King Dodongo, and, like, Agahnim - and Skull Kid, Midna, Ghirahim, Tingle, they were all missing.

Even if you want to stress not focusing on "new faces" (which I think is pretty incidental, because other series do it all the time), three of those aforementioned Kirby characters date back to the 90s. Two come from the third-ever Kirby game. I mean every one of the characters listed, bar Susie, dates back to at least pre-Smash 4, most pre-Brawl.
 

Rie Sonomura

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I think there’s a chance that we can get some
Niche characters but there’s a world of difference between the characters you listed (besides Arle) & Terry/Joker/especially Hero.

Terry/King of Fighters & Joker/Persona are probably B- tier series. Persona was lower for a while but 5 really boosted its mainstream popularity. Dragon Quest is definitely an A tier series, it’d be a S tier if it was popular in the West.

I think it’s definitely possible that we could get something along the lines of Reimu or Monokuma, but it’d be the first of its kind instead of a continuation of Joker & Terry.

Slightly off-topic but I feel Monokuma’s Danganronpa is in a similar spot to Persona pre-5 right now. It’s garnered a healthy cult following in the West. It’ll be interesting to see if it can ever break out like Persona did.
uhhh feel like you should switch the words there
 

SpectreJordan

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I agree with people saying Bandana Dee's best chance in DLC is Nintendo wanting to push a new Kirby game in the next year. He's the kind of character I would place as more likely for base game (I was kind of expecting him before "everyone is here" was announced), but that wasn't the case, so instead of being a new addition in a $60 game he's now a $5/6 character by himself. He has to captivate the audience all by himself, which is tough for any character, especially if you aren't the face of your game. It would be a lot easier if he can point to a shiny new product and say, "I'm part of that."

It's hard to say what Nintendo even wants to push for the next year. It could be Kirby, Xenoblade, a third party collaboration, BotW 2. It could be something we don't know about like a new Ice Climbers/Tomb Raider crossover. We could all be thrown for a loop and get no more blatant "shill picks." I don't personally think Bandana Dee is super likely at this point, but if Nintendo decides they want to push Kirby like they've been pushing Fire Emblem I could see it happening towards the end of the pass.
Assuming we don't get the hot new face of the next game.
I think Xenoblade is a safe bet. It’s a budding series that Nintendo wants to push, fans want to see more of in Smash & Sakurai’s a fan of/expressed regret at not getting one of its characters in. It’d please basically all of the major parties involved.

I’ll be very shocked if we don’t see another Xenoblade characters. The only reason I could see is if the next 5 characters are all designed to attract outside fanbases/players. A Xenoblade character wouldn’t really do that.
 

SKX31

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Oof. Can you imagine if a game simply got rid of two entire characters in your region? That'd be just the worst feeling.
And they were kept because... The playtesters thought they were unique. I don't know if the irony here is sweet or bitter..
I for one am eternally happy that the testers made the right call, since:

That'd impact Smash's then-nascent competitive scene heavily. Especially since Marth's a top tier in Melee; and him being region-locked would prevent most - if not almost all* - of competitive scene from using him really (including two of Melee's historically dominant "Five Gods"**). If anything many competitive players would probably be amongst the loudest complainers and demand that Marth / Roy get into future Western releases. EDIT: A lot of them would probably complain that the Japanese would get an "unfair advantage" by having practically exclusive access to Marth / Roy.

*(Japan didn't have much of a competitive scene in any game back then due to now-relaxed gambling laws forbidding direct prize money. So going there would not be much of an option. The most famous Japanese Melee player - the Yoshi player aMSa - only started getting international attention 7 years ago, right as Sm4sh was around the corner.)

**(Using the term because it's used within competitive Melee. Those five won nearly every single major Melee tournament - where at least two of them participated - from 2008 to 2015.)

Out of the four settings (Not counting repeats), there's the inevitable Dream Land, Meta Knight's ship, the penultimate area of Adventure, and a Super Star subgame. The GCO is the only one I find unnecessary. It should also be noted that we do have noteworthy modern content in Kirby and Dedede's Final Smashes.
Maybe Sakurai's biased towards his content, but I don't think it's enough to prevent him from adding any modern content whatsoever. It's just that he ended up with mostly his own works in past games, which became more apparent when Kirby didn't get much new content in general.
Well, one could make the argument that it isn't just Sakurai bias:

* Dreamland's relatively easy to develop (it's got three unused "cousins" - New, Small and the Tutorial Stage, suggesting that Dream Land was built from this base).

* Green Greens could be seen as Sakurai / HAL wanting to give Dreamland a new twist, what with Whispy actually attacking here and blocks falling down.

* FoD's not just the penultimate area but also full with particle effects. As well as Sakurai / HAL incorporating the idea of platforms raising / lowering out of and into the ground. Which had one unintended benefit: the competitive community at large came to really like the stage.

* One could argue that Halberd was chosen not just due to :metaknight:, but also to show Brawl's sheer scope: the E3 2006 trailer depicts the Halberd as huge. Also, the Halberd features prominently in SSE.

* Dream Land GB could be seen as Sakurai / Sora not only giving a shoutout to Sakurai's first game, but also as a way to built a Game Boy stage. Two birds, one stone.

* And Great Cave Offensive - like Gaur Plains and Palutena's Temple - was very likely built with 8 player Smash in mind. Shame it isn't as good as Temple though.
 
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Opossum

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I also find it very funny how an Epic Yarn stage was planned and Sakurai took the first available opportunity to change it to something else: by changing it to be for Yoshi's Wooly World, a game that wouldn't release until two years after Smash 4.

He was that eager to move away from the one major piece of modern Kirby content lol.
 

Perkilator

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I also find it very funny how an Epic Yarn stage was planned and Sakurai took the first available opportunity to change it to something else: by changing it to be for Yoshi's Wooly World, a game that wouldn't release until two years after Smash 4.

He was that eager to move away from the one major piece of modern Kirby content lol.
It was already explained that it was to avoid treading in Woolly World’s territory (and that game came in 2015, not even a full year after Smash for Wii U, on the Wii U).
 

JCKirbs

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I'd say it helps more than it hurts. Final Smashes seem to have been given a ton more attention in this game than the previous one. Dedede Burst could have just been something they could make quickly and easily.
Reminds me of some of the theories people used to make in favor of Bandana Dee's inclusion in Ultimate, which obviously hasn't happened (yet).
Like how Bandana Dee appears in the background of the Masked Dedede fight in SSU, but doesn't appear in the background of Dedede's Final Smash.

It was already explained that it was to avoid treading in Woolly World’s territory (and that game came in 2015, not even a full year after Smash for Wii U, on the Wii U).
Yeah, since Yoshi didn't have a stage yet he probably just wanted to grab something from the most recent Yoshi game which just so happened to overlap with the concept of Kirby's Epic Yarn.
 

Dinoman96

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I think Street Fighter has the same problem Kirby does, actually.

In that, they both have tons of content in Ultimate, but the problem is that the vast majority of that content is almost entirely based around a specifc era in their respective franchise: Street Fighter 2 and Sakurai's games.

Like Terry's challenger packs comes with music rips from KOF 13 and 14 and yet Street Fighter 4 can't even get a single music rip, because literally ALL of SF's music in Smash is taken from SF2. It's just absurd when you compare it to how other IPs like Zelda, Castlevania, Fatal Fury (which covers SNK games entirely), etc are represented.
 

Perkilator

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I think Street Fighter has the same problem Kirby does, actually.

In that, they both have tons of content in Ultimate, but the problem is that the vast majority of that content is almost entirely based around a specifc era in their respective franchise: Street Fighter 2 and Sakurai's games.

Like Terry's challenger packs comes with music rips from KOF 13 and 14 and yet Street Fighter 4 can't even get a single music rip, because literally ALL of SF's music in Smash is taken from SF2. It's just absurd when you compare it to how other IPs like Zelda, Castlevania, Fatal Fury (which covers SNK games entirely), etc are represented.
Which is odd. Since Capcom seems to be pushing SFV a lot, you’d think that game would get at least a song.
 

JCKirbs

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Yeah Sakurai seems against adding content from modern Kirby for some reason, and whenever he does, it's all super minor stuff. Hope that changes someday: There' a ton of good content not being explored there.
I will never trust anyone who unironically says that the Kirby franchise is "perfectly represented" with what it currently has.
In fact, I think it's because of the lack of Kirby characters/diverse content that convinces some people to say such a thing.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I think Street Fighter has the same problem Kirby does, actually.

In that, they both have tons of content in Ultimate, but the problem is that the vast majority of that content is almost entirely based around a specifc era in their respective franchise: Street Fighter 2 and Sakurai's games.

Like Terry's challenger packs comes with music rips from KOF 13 and 14 and yet Street Fighter 4 can't even get a single music rip, because literally ALL of SF's music in Smash is taken from SF2. It's just absurd when you compare it to how other IPs like Zelda, Castlevania, Fatal Fury (which covers SNK games entirely), etc are represented.
I had assumed this was because it was the only mainline title on Nintendo consoles, but after a quick search it looks like that was never the case.

And then there's Final Fantasy only taking things from Final Fantasy VII, and Persona taking everything but the soundtrack exclusively from Persona 5, and, while this doesn't bother me, the Mega Man series mostly just pulls from the classic series.

...

It's a sad day when you realize that that there are franchises in Super Smash Bros. that adhere to specific eras within that series and Sonic the Hedgehog isn't one of them.
 

SharkLord

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While there are somethings going against Bandana Dee at the moment, I think it's rather silly to dismiss him as impossible because of the alleged "Sakurai bias," which isn't even confirmed. Nintendo's choosing the characters in this situation, and even in a base game scenario, popular request can influence additions.

The main thing standing in his way is the fact that he's just not really DLC material. Prominent in the series as he may be right now, he's still a supporting character without a game to tie himself to. It doesn't help that said franchise doesn't have a major release coming up, at least not to our knowledge. While yes, he can bring some extra content the base game is missing, there isn't much he can push at the moment, aside from, what? Star Allies, which came and went? Super Kirby Clash, which doesn't feature him prominently? He's best suited for the base game, maybe a solo fighter if we're lucky.

Apparent Sakurai bias won't prevent him from happening, though. If Nintendo wants to push Kirby suddenly, Bandana Dee would work fairly well. He's a fairly popular pick as well, and that can at least influence selection. He may not be happening, but it won't be because of the quote-unquote "Sakurai bias."
 

Rie Sonomura

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at the very least let's see how FP7 and/or 8 go, if they're meant for promotion or not. if they are promotional, Bandana Dee's chances have gone down without a game to tie himself to. Dixie Kong too, possibly
 

TheBeastHimself

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While there are somethings going against Bandana Dee at the moment, I think it's rather silly to dismiss him as impossible because of the alleged "Sakurai bias," which isn't even confirmed. Nintendo's choosing the characters in this situation, and even in a base game scenario, popular request can influence additions.

The main thing standing in his way is the fact that he's just not really DLC material. Prominent in the series as he may be right now, he's still a supporting character without a game to tie himself to. It doesn't help that said franchise doesn't have a major release coming up, at least not to our knowledge. While yes, he can bring some extra content the base game is missing, there isn't much he can push at the moment, aside from, what? Star Allies, which came and went? Super Kirby Clash, which doesn't feature him prominently? He's best suited for the base game, maybe a solo fighter if we're lucky.

Apparent Sakurai bias won't prevent him from happening, though. If Nintendo wants to push Kirby suddenly, Bandana Dee would work fairly well. He's a fairly popular pick as well, and that can at least influence selection. He may not be happening, but it won't be because of the quote-unquote "Sakurai bias."
I was going to agree with you. Not trying to be attacked by Kirby fans right now because I really want BWD as the 4th Kirby character, but we're talking DLC. Would he really sell that much to make Nintendo want to market him? I mean maybe theoretically, but I can't see Nintendo doing it unless they're promoting a new Kirby game, but nothing is really going on with Kirby right now.

I feel like BWD would work much better as a base character.
 

JCKirbs

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While there are somethings going against Bandana Dee at the moment, I think it's rather silly to dismiss him as impossible because of the alleged "Sakurai bias," which isn't even confirmed. Nintendo's choosing the characters in this situation, and even in a base game scenario, popular request can influence additions.

The main thing standing in his way is the fact that he's just not really DLC material. Prominent in the series as he may be right now, he's still a supporting character without a game to tie himself to. It doesn't help that said franchise doesn't have a major release coming up, at least not to our knowledge. While yes, he can bring some extra content the base game is missing, there isn't much he can push at the moment, aside from, what? Star Allies, which came and went? Super Kirby Clash, which doesn't feature him prominently? He's best suited for the base game, maybe a solo fighter if we're lucky.

Apparent Sakurai bias won't prevent him from happening, though. If Nintendo wants to push Kirby suddenly, Bandana Dee would work fairly well. He's a fairly popular pick as well, and that can at least influence selection. He may not be happening, but it won't be because of the quote-unquote "Sakurai bias."
At this point I'm just banking on the idea that the next game could feature Bandana Dee as a fully-fledged playable character, since ARMS proved that you don't need to have your face on the box in order to be a viable choice. At the same time Smash DLC has implied that being a main playable character for your respective game/series is ideal for promotional purposes, so Bandana Dee playing a supporting role for the next Kirby game wouldn't be ideal.

(Yes, this all depends on if there is a Kirby game on the horizon which so happens to feature a playable Bandana Dee, which Nintendo would want to promote; because Nintendo is all about turning a profit).
 

Garteam

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Look at all the major Kirby content (characters, stages, ATs, items, even Mii costumes). You know how much of it wasn't created by Sakurai? 0%. Nada. You don't find anything amiss there? It's just Sakurai not having had a chance?

Think about it, of course he's had a chance to prove impartiality, he's been off the series since before Brawl, and there are probably a dozen mainline Kirby games he didn't make by now. Even by Brawl there were five.

And think how many notable non-Sakurai Kirby characters there are: Bandana Dee (mostly), Gooey, Susie, Daroach, Dark Matter, Magolor, Adeleine, etc etc. Meanwhile the ATs are a generic enemy (Knuckle Joe), a very minor character (Chef Kawasaki) and Nightmare... who makes sense. And the latter two were added this decade, long after a bunch of other Kirby characters gained prominence. And that doesn't mean they're bad choices, but at the exclusion of so many more visible ones, they're a little strange and conspicuous.

Imagine if Zelda's ATs were a Stalfos, King Dodongo, and, like, Agahnim - and Skull Kid, Midna, Ghirahim, Tingle, they were all missing.

Even if you want to stress not focusing on "new faces" (which I think is pretty incidental, because other series do it all the time), three of those aforementioned Kirby characters date back to the 90s. Two come from the third-ever Kirby game. I mean every one of the characters listed, bar Susie, dates back to at least pre-Smash 4, most pre-Brawl.
No one's saying Sakurai didn't have the chance, but game development is much more complicated than just saying "Classic Kirby outnumbers modern Kirby in terms of content because Sakurai's biased". There's a non-biased explanation that seems much more plausible than Sakurai being unwilling to work with other aspects of the series. I really don't think Sakurai chose Kirby, Meta Knight, and Dedede because he's in love with his characters, but because those three were the only three consistently reoccuring characters at time. Most of Kirby's items either occur across the entire series or have become Smash staples after being added when they were more relevant. The Meta Knight Mask and Marx hat are because they had high quality models of those characters which they could turn into Mii costumes.

Even the ATs aren't really that strange. Knuckle Joe was added at a time when the series was largely reusing Kirby, Meta Knight, and Dedede rather than creating new characters and he was added during Brawl, before assist trophies fully adopted the roll of showing off a series' popular supporting characters. Nightmare is the main antagonist of the first Kirby game and served as the ultimate villain of the anime. Kawasaki's the only weird one of the group, but I imagine that partially had to do with referencing Brawl's Final Smash for Kirby.

In regards to the missing assist trophies, Gooey, Adelaide, and Dark Matter aren't assist trophies for the same reason characters like Marin aren't: they were outdated when assist trophies even became a thing. Gooey appeared once as a Player 2 and Dark Matter was a villain in one game and a boss in another, and both of their last appearances were a decade before Brawl. Adelaide (and I know I'm gonna step on some toes here) was never important at all. She was a supporting character for one game. A relatively popular supporting character, but her role never extended beyond that.

Susie had Rex syndrome and her game released after Ultimate began development but before Ultimate released. Similarly, Squeak Squad released during Brawl's development and Daroach was irrelevant by the time of Smash 4 and Ultimate. That really only leaves Bandana Dee and Magolor, who only started appearing in major and semi-major roles respectively shortly after Smash 4 released. Why weren't they ATs in Ultimate? I dunno, but I don't think their absence as ATs is enough to say Sakurai hates them.
 

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It was already explained that it was to avoid treading in Woolly World’s territory (and that game came in 2015, not even a full year after Smash for Wii U, on the Wii U).
Still, Sakurai leapt at the opportunity to represent a game that wouldn't release for a year, over a proven sucess. And the replacement stage? Does it come from the modern hit Return to Deam Land? The cult classic Kirby 64? No, it's Super Star.

That's bias.
 

N3ON

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This might be the most math I've ever done over Smash, lol.

There's a lot of problems with that chart though.
It counts spirits like the Warp Star, Whispy Woods, and Waddle Dee as Sakurai-era Kirby content even though they're from the entirety of the series. If you were to instead divide Kirby's spirits into "Reoccuring elements", "classic Kirby characters", and "modern Kirby characters", its likely that the modern Kirby spirits would outnumber the classic characters.
Similarly, a good chunk of the songs sourced as "Sakurai-era Kirby songs" are reoccurring motifs throughout the entire series like Green Greens and Dedede's theme or medleys that encompass both modern and classic Kirby games. Sakurai has also said in the past that he largely allows the sound team to decide which songs they remix, so that's which games are getting remixed most often isn't really his fault.
That's fair, so, because "classic" doesn't inherently mean Sakurai (he only ever made three mainline Kirbys - Dream Land, Adventure, and Super Star) let's look at the recurring elements just from Sakurai's games that became spirits. They make up 32% of Kirby's spirits.

Let's look at Zelda's recurring ones from across the whole series. 15%
Mario's. 25%
Metroid. 14%

And that's without the less recurring Sakurai characters like Dyna Blade, Heavy Lobster, the Meta Knights, Marx, etc. If they only showed up like twice, I didn't count that as really recurring.

And again, this comes from only three mainline games in a series with like fifteen mainline games. So I didn't count characters like Bandana Dee or Galacta Knight, who recur, but aren't really from Sakurai. I also didn't limit the recurring spirits to only a few games from the other series, and they still clocked in at less. I mean characters like Waluigi, E. Gadd, Petey Piranha, Toadsworth, Luma, etc. would all be recurring, even though they're comparatively newer, so I counted them. And Kirby still comes in higher. Doubly so, in some cases.

Also, he only said Ultimate had free reign for the soundtrack. iirc, he even made a point to say doing that was new for the series. So that would really only count towards Ultimate's remixes.

But frankly, more important than spirits and music (though I also believe those disproportionate) are the actual major categories, which have, like I said, 0% non-Sakurai content. That stuff is more pertinent in gauging the fate of future Kirby characters, which is how the conversation began.

The stages are bit more complicated, but they're still not that bad. Green Greens, Dream Land 64, and the Fountain of Dreams all came when Sakurai made all of the mainline Kirby games, so that's half the stages right there.
No they don't. By Melee, Dream Land 2, 3 and Kirby 64 were all out, and those weren't created by Sakurai.

Dream Land GB was originally a Mario Land stage and was converted into a Kirby stage late in development, presumably to give a Kirby a stage in Smash for 3DS when he otherwise wouldn't have one.
Ok. You know Kirby's Dream Land isn't the only Kirby game on Game Boy? Why not Dream Land 2? I mean the original Dream Land already had a stage, and Sakurai chose to give it another.

Likewise, the Great Cave Offensive started as an Epic Yarn stage and got reworked to not step on Woolly World's territory. Those two were not attempts to disvalue modern Kirby, they were last minute efforts to save other stages and give Kirby something. That just leaves Halberd, which was more likely chosen to give Meta Knight a stage, not to flaunt Sakurai's run on Kirby.
...and Sakurai could've chosen to re-work it into any number of other Kirby stages from any Kirby game. He chose giving Super Star another stage.

Marx is the most popular final boss in the entirety of the series other than maybe Magolor, so it makes sense he'd get priority to be a boss.
Magolor is more popular. Especially in Japan. Marx only eclipsed him once he showed up in Star Allies. But then everyone else did too. And if popularity takes precedence over the bias, where's Bandana Dee? Shouldn't he be at least an AT or something?

If there's bias for the original Kirby games behind Kirby, Meta Knight, and Dedede being the playable Kirby characters in Smash, then there's bias for DKC1 behind Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, and King K. Rool being the DK characters.
The characters all come from DKC1 (though Dixie was planned). Well, other than DK himself. But the stages don't. There's arcade DK, there's DK64, there's Jungle Beat, there's DKCR. The items don't. The costumes don't. The AT does, but there's only one.

I won't deny that most of Kirby's content comes from his older games, that's an empirical fact. I'm much more hesitant to accept that this is motivated by bias though and not 20 years of development across 6 different games and the complications that come about through that.
Well, you're conflating all old games with Sakurai games. Half of the old games weren't even made by Sakurai. More than half. And those ones have no major content, and only small amounts of minor content. Dream Land 2, 3, Kirby 64, Amazing Mirror. And all the spin-offs other than Air Ride (which has as much content as a mainline Kirby game). It seems very clear to me that he's deliberately stepped around other titles in the series to mostly focus on his. Even if we had gotten one stage from a post-Sakurai game... that doesn't somehow tip the scales around the massive weight of Sakurai's content.
 
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cosmicB

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Well, there's that Famicom detective club remake that is suppose to release this year in Japan and will peobably never be localised.
Take a look at the origin of this quote chain again.

I genuinely believe a localization is coming and would be surprised if it didn't happen.
 

JCKirbs

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I feel bad for Kirby fans, they really do that franchise dirty in Smash.
The longer this conversation continued, the more depressing it was to reinstate the reality of Kirby representation in Smash and how it might not even change once Ultimate's development is completed. Which means that practically a decade's worth of Modern Kirby would've been ignored beyond PNG images, a Final Smash (which isn't even visually unique), and a handful of unremixed music tracks.
 

N3ON

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The longer this conversation continued, the more depressing it was to reinstate the reality of Kirby representation in Smash and how it might not even change once Ultimate's development is completed. Which means that practically a decade's worth of Modern Kirby would've been ignored beyond PNG images, a Final Smash (which isn't even visually unique), and a handful of unremixed music tracks.
Fwiw I feel like eventually Sakurai will include a Kirby stage or AT from a game he didn't make, I just don't think the imbalance will be redressed so long as he's calling the shots.

And he isn't right now I suppose - but I don't think Nintendo is going to find more Kirby content especially pressing for DLC, bar maybe a spirit event.

Take a look at the origin of this quote chain again.

I genuinely believe a localization is coming and would be surprised if it didn't happen.
I hope we get it, I've never played those games. But really, if there's any game that would buck the trend of being localized, there's a good chance it'd be Famicom Tantei Club.
 

Aetheri

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It is pretty curious why Sakurai neglects the modern Kirby games. He doesn't seem the kind of person that would purposely overlook the possibility of content simply because it's from an era that comes after his involvement with the series.

I'm not sure of the exact circumstances behind why he's no longer working on Kirby but I thought it was simply because he decided to move on from the series.
 
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7NATOR

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It is pretty curious why Sakurai neglects the modern Kirby games. He doesn't seem the kind of person that would overlook the possibility of content simply because it's from an era that comes after his involvement with the series.

I'm not sure of the exact circumstances behind why he's no longer working on Kirby but I thought it was simply because he decided to move on from the series.
I think i heard speculation that he didn't want to mess up on Mis-Representing the Newer Kirby content and such. that's why he uses content from Kirby games he created because he's much more familiar with that
 

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Fwiw I feel like eventually Sakurai will include a Kirby stage or AT from a game he didn't make, I just don't think the imbalance will be redressed so long as he's calling the shots.

And he isn't right now I suppose - but I don't think Nintendo is going to find more Kirby content especially pressing for DLC, bar maybe a spirit event.


I hope we get it, I've never played those games. But really, if there's any game that would buck the trend of being localized, there's a good chance it'd be Famicom Tantei Club.
Well, if Bandana Dee isn't happening as DLC at least I would know why.

I think i heard speculation that he didn't want to mess up on Mis-Representing the Newer Kirby content and such. that's why he uses content from Kirby games he created because he's much more familiar with that
That's far too ironic considering that he works with more franchises in which he wasn't directly involved with VS ones in which he actually was.
Plus, the direction/plot/gameplay for core Modern Kirby games has been pretty consistent so far, save for the new mechanics which are introduced for each entry.
 

Rie Sonomura

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Fwiw I feel like eventually Sakurai will include a Kirby stage or AT from a game he didn't make, I just don't think the imbalance will be redressed so long as he's calling the shots.

And he isn't right now I suppose - but I don't think Nintendo is going to find more Kirby content especially pressing for DLC, bar maybe a spirit event.


I hope we get it, I've never played those games. But really, if there's any game that would buck the trend of being localized, there's a good chance it'd be Famicom Tantei Club.
i mean if Panel de Pon saw a worldwide release after 25 years (albeit still with Japanese text), FDC can (and should) too (fully translated to boot)
 

7NATOR

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That's far too ironic considering that he works with more franchises in which he wasn't directly involved with VS ones in which he actually was.
Plus, the direction/plot/gameplay for core Modern Kirby games has been pretty consistent so far, save for the new mechanics which are introduced for each entry.
Maybe Sakurai has problems with whoever is the New Kirby Director, I mean I have no idea. Honestly We need another Q/A with Sakurai, except instead of questions being asked about his Fetish and stuff, we could ask him about how he feels about New Kirrby, and why there's no SF3 Music in Smash
 

SharkLord

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It is pretty curious why Sakurai neglects the modern Kirby games. He doesn't seem the kind of person that would purposely overlook the possibility of content simply because it's from an era that comes after his involvement with the series.

I'm not sure of the exact circumstances behind why he's no longer working on Kirby but I thought it was simply because he decided to move on from the series.
I believe he's stated he doesn't play the modern Kirby games because he doesn't want to interfere with the development process, which I suppose is understandable. I could see him slanting towards his own content, but the idea that we'll never get modern Kirby content until Sakurai leaves the franchise is just silly. Wii U/3DS was the only time that really stuck out; Ultimate was focused on bringing back old content over adding new content, and evidently Kirby wasn't on high priority for new content. More than anything, Kirby's just got a stroke of bad luck, kinda like Fire Emblem's unbalanced playable representation, but in reverse. His new stuff got pushed aside in 4, Ultimate's base game was too focused in bringing back old content, and he doesn't really have a new game to push for the DLC. If it turns out a new Kirby game is on the horizon, things would start looking up for Bandana Dee, but nothing of the sort is happening at the moment.

But more than anything I just want a new Kirby game. Ever since Triple Deluxe, we've had a pattern of mainline games every other year, followed by spinoffs the next. Now we should be getting a new Kirby game, but there's been nothing of the sort. Hopefully the rumors of a 3D Kirby game come true next year, since I'd imagine a new engine would take more time than reusing an old one.
 

JCKirbs

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Maybe Sakurai has problems with whoever is the New Kirby Director, I mean I have no idea. Honestly We need another Q/A with Sakurai, except instead of questions being asked about his Fetish and stuff, we could ask him about how he feels about New Kirrby, and why there's no SF3 Music in Smash
Hm, that would be quite a splendid idea when you think about it.


I believe he's stated he doesn't play the modern Kirby games because he doesn't want to interfere with the development process, which I suppose is understandable. I could see him slanting towards his own content, but the idea that we'll never get modern Kirby content until Sakurai leaves the franchise is just silly. Wii U/3DS was the only time that really stuck out; Ultimate was focused on bringing back old content over adding new content, and evidently Kirby wasn't on high priority for new content. More than anything, Kirby's just got a stroke of bad luck, kinda like Fire Emblem's unbalanced playable representation, but in reverse. His new stuff got pushed aside in 4, Ultimate's base game was too focused in bringing back old content, and he doesn't really have a new game to push for the DLC. If it turns out a new Kirby game is on the horizon, things would start looking up for Bandana Dee, but nothing of the sort is happening at the moment.

But more than anything I just want a new Kirby game. Ever since Triple Deluxe, we've had a pattern of mainline games every other year, followed by spinoffs the next. Now we should be getting a new Kirby game, but there's been nothing of the sort. Hopefully the rumors of a 3D Kirby game come true next year, since I'd imagine a new engine would take more time than reusing an old one.
I keep stressing this, but I really do think that they're developing the "pinnacle of the series" as they've stated before.
I would also think that something like a Core 3D Kirby game would be the next big step for the franchise, and they certainly have been dipping their toes into 3D Kirby gameplay quite a few times...
 
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MooMew64

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Metroid representation used to suck too before Ultimate, so there's some hope for Kirby.

Admittedly, though, not a lot of hope: I personally feel the reason we lack stuff from Kirby might have something to do with Sakurai himself, for whatever reason, not feeling comfortable using Kirby content he himself is not familiar with, but hey, who knows.
 
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