Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[MattOnwheels]

There's a lot of sheer coincidences on the roster if this is truly the case.

Don't get it twisted: Being popular helps. It just isn't a deal breaker.

 

[Will]

Man it's like once a week with Geno arguments huh

It is the weekend, so it's right on time.

 

[N3ON]

Guys, why haven't you learned? No character that gets into the game has to have any rhyme or reason beyond Sakurai going "Oooj, that would be fun!" and the owners being OK with it. How "Dead" a franchise is doesn't matter nor how "Alive" it is. Nothing is off the table. Sakurai could put Sonny from Mario Golf 64 into the game if he wanted to and was allowed.

Ok. Well, I mean the last two characters were specifically stated to be at the behest of other people, and the four before that to Nintendo generally, then three of the twelve before that attributed to the ballot, five because they worked as clones (and also the ballot), one was per Poke-mandate, and two happened to be huge, recent characters. Suspicious how despite all that rhyme and reason Sakurai just picked them cause he thought they'd be neat.

But hey, clearly no one other than Sakurai picked Piranha Plant.

The anything is possible argument is kinda weak because not only is it unlikely anyone was saying that "x is impossible" (unless they're not from gaming), but also because something simply not being impossible doesn't inherently mean it's at all likely.

It's not really a deep process. All that's really required is that Sakurai Nintendo and the publisher are ok with it and from what I know Nintendo usually let him add who he wants, except in the case of this DLC where Nintendo approved the list. That's not to say that there;s this complicated reasoning that goes into it. Most of the time Sakurai picks who he thinks would be fun, not who is "Relevant" or "Marketable," No character is beyond a possibility if Sakurai sees potential in them. Perhaps "No logic" was a stretch, but the fact people still place arbitrary reasons as to why a character "Can't" get in is baffling. He doesn't WORK like that.

What's required =/= What's entailed

You're oversimplifying if not skipping past the process and just landing on the outcome. If it was as basic as "hey they're fun", all the series in Smash wouldn't feature their top-billed cast in a descending hierarchy addition-wise, with a strong bent on recency and success. There's clearly methodology behind why the inclusion gets included.

I mean otherwise where's the one-off tertiary Zelda character? Where's the non-protag, non-Lord FE unit? Why do we never get some random-ass never-promoted Pokemon from like three gens back or whatever? Lord knows there are some "fun" options we don't get.

 

[ChronoBound]

It definitely it, yes.

Support is always more visible and vocal when the community thinks its likely.

Like look at Cloud. He was almost never brought up, but it wasn't because no one wanted him.

You are absolutely correct on this. The perception of likelihood absolutely fuels character requests and passion.

A case in point (that probably won't cause drama in this thread) is the case in regards to Ashley. The release of the remix for her theme during pre-Brawl created a sizable bandwagon for her out of virtually nowhere. Many were absolutely convinced she was going to be WarioWare's second playable character because why else would her theme get a remix, or at least according to those who wanted her. After the unveil of the Brawl roster, the passionate portion to her Smash fanbase basically lay dormant for a decade.

Her Smash fanbase resurfaced again after the Ultimate unveil at E3 2018 due her Assist Trophy was nowhere to be seen, as well as the first traditional WarioWare title releasing in July. During the two month period between the E3 2018 direct and the 8/8 Smash Direct, Ashley was among the most highly wanted characters for Ultimate on this site and had among the most passionate supporters.

Most Ashley supporters were going into the upcoming direct expecting a confirmation due to WarioWare Gold releasing two weeks prior. It ended up being the case where she was pretty much the only veteran Assist Trophy confirmed during the direct. After this, her fanbase deflated once again.

There are many, many examples of this throughout the history of Smash character support.

I wonder if this is why support for Krystal died down after Brawl despite being in a similar situation to another Rare character, K. Rool, while support for him skyrocketed. Both hadn't appeared in their series for a long time. The last DK game K. Rool was in was Donkey Kong Jungle Climber (2007), while the last Star Fox game Krystal was in was Star Fox Command (2006). Did Krystal fans think she wasn't ever going to appear again? I suppose her absence in Zero didn't help either...

Krystal had actually held on to much more of her support than Geno, Midna, and Lyn did after Brawl's release (Geno did not start to rebound as a character request until his Mii costume was unveiled). Even up until the end of the ballot, I would say she was still within the Top 15 most wanted characters within the Western side to the Smash fanbase.

Krystal's depreciation of requests was due to three factors primarily:

1. Krystal's last appearance in her own series being in 2006. This limits new exposure of the character, and also gives a perception that the character is "irrelevant". It is usually an uphill battle to argue for character inclusion when a character has been gone from their own series for a very long time (simply one of the things that made Dark Samus's inclusion so miraculous, especially considering she was never a mega star in terms of requests at any point).

2. Star Fox basically falling in prominence after the mid-2000's. The only three major things done with Star Fox during the 2010's was the release of Star Fox 64 3D, the release of Star Fox Zero (a game with a mixed reception that was released on the failing Wii U), and the official release of Star Fox 2. All three of these notable developments for the series lacked an appearance for Krystal as well.

3. The "we need more females" bandwagon finding other female characters to gravitate towards. During pre-Brawl, she might have been the most prominent female Nintendo character (outside of Dixie Kong and Daisy) that was not a one-shot, not yet part of the roster. As more female characters were added to the roster during Smash 4, and the roster gradually opened up to more and more third-parties, the unique attribute that Krystal had (being a non-one shot female Nintendo character) started to look less special, especially on the back of the Star Fox series losing prominence.

I actually consider the inclusion of her as an Assist Trophy in Ultimate an impressive victory for the character. Ultimate in general had very few non-echo newcomers for its base roster in general, and among those few they did choose, they were the best of the best (Inkling and Isabelle being perhaps the two biggest Nintendo characters created during the 2010's, Ridley and K. Rool both being among the most highly requested characters in general for over a decade, and Castlevania being a legendary franchise in general with deep roots with Nintendo consoles, and Incineroar was included as part of a placeholder Sakurai is mandated to do in regards to Pokemon for every Smash title since at least Brawl).

She likely did quite well on the ballot to be able to even get that consolation prize. A lot of this is credit to Shorts who did an admirable job of holding the Krystal fanbase together after Brawl's release. Going into the ballot, she was in the best position she could hope for given her circumstances (Wolf being cut siphoned demand for her among Star Fox fan ballot voters that could have gone to her, and missing out on Star Fox Zero). The only higher consolation prize there is for Smash is the Mii costume, and for that there was no fighter type that Krystal could easily be made into a Mii costume for. As it stands, she is among the most dynamic Assist Trophies presently in Ultimate.

Going further on the tangent relating to Shorts, I do think it is possible that without the work of Shorts, Krystal might never have even been an Assist Trophy in Ultimate. A lot of character support in general is driven by organization (just look at BKupa's work in regards to the K. Rool and the Kremling Kutthroats), and I think he did well in that regard. His polling work also provided an interesting snap shot into the past in regards to character requests during the pre-Smash 4 period. I might someday write something on the last poll he put out back in October 2014 (he passed away in November 2014), since I think it in particular offers a very stark contrast to the dominant character requests in the present and would offer a fascinating history lesson to those who have an interest in character speculation backstory.

However, for requests, Krystal held on as best as she could given her circumstances. I think, should the character ever have a major role in a Star Fox title ever again, she will have a resurgence in support and will at least be within the Top 20 most wanted characters overall.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You are absolutely correct on this. The perception of likelihood absolutely fuels character requests and passion.

A case in point (that probably won't cause drama in this thread) is the case in regards to Ashley. The release of the remix for her theme during pre-Brawl created a sizable bandwagon for her out of virtually nowhere. Many were absolutely convinced she was going to be WarioWare's second playable character because why else would her theme get a remix, or at least according to those who wanted her. After the unveil of the Brawl roster, the passionate portion to her Smash fanbase basically lay dormant for a decade.

Her Smash fanbase resurfaced again after the Ultimate unveil at E3 2018 due her Assist Trophy was nowhere to be seen, as well as the first traditional WarioWare title releasing in July. During the two month period between the E3 2018 direct and the 8/8 Smash Direct, Ashley was among the most highly wanted characters for Ultimate on this site and had among the most passionate supporters.

Most Ashley supporters were going into the upcoming direct expecting a confirmation due to WarioWare Gold releasing two weeks prior. It ended up being the case where she was pretty much the only veteran Assist Trophy confirmed during the direct. After this, her fanbase deflated once again.

There are many, many examples of this throughout the history of Smash character support.



Krystal had actually held on to much more of her support than Geno, Midna, and Lyn did after Brawl's release (Geno did not start to rebound as a character request until his Mii costume was unveiled). Even up until the end of the ballot, I would say she was still within the Top 15 most wanted characters within the Western side to the Smash fanbase.

Krystal's depreciation of requests was due to three factors primarily:

1. Krystal's last appearance in her own series being in 2006. This limits new exposure of the character, and also gives a perception that the character is "irrelevant". It is usually an uphill battle to argue for character inclusion when a character has been gone from their own series for a very long time (simply one of the things that made Dark Samus's inclusion so miraculous, especially considering she was never a mega star in terms of requests at any point).

2. Star Fox basically falling in prominence after the mid-2000's. The only three major things done with Star Fox during the 2010's was the release of Star Fox 64 3D, the release of Star Fox Zero (a game with a mixed reception that was released on the failing Wii U), and the official release of Star Fox 2. All three of these notable developments for the series lacked an appearance for Krystal as well.

3. The "we need more females" bandwagon finding other female characters to gravitate towards. During pre-Brawl, she might have been the most prominent female Nintendo character (outside of Dixie Kong and Daisy) that was not a one-shot, not yet part of the roster. As more female characters were added to the roster during Smash 4, and the roster gradually opened up to more and more third-parties, the unique attribute that Krystal had (being a non-one shot female Nintendo character) started to look less special, especially on the back of the Star Fox series losing prominence.

I actually consider the inclusion of her as an Assist Trophy in Ultimate an impressive victory for the character. Ultimate in general had very few non-echo newcomers for its base roster in general, and among those few they did choose, they were the best of the best (Inkling and Isabelle being perhaps the two biggest Nintendo characters created during the 2010's, Ridley and K. Rool both being among the most highly requested characters in general for over a decade, and Castlevania being a legendary franchise in general with deep roots with Nintendo consoles, and Incineroar was included as part of a placeholder Sakurai is mandated to do in regards to Pokemon for every Smash title since at least Brawl).

She likely did quite well on the ballot to be able to even get that consolation prize. A lot of this is credit to Shorts who did an admirable job of holding the Krystal fanbase together after Brawl's release. Going into the ballot, she was in the best position she could hope for given her circumstances (Wolf being cut siphoned demand for her among Star Fox fan ballot voters that could have gone to her, and missing out on Star Fox Zero). The only higher consolation prize there is for Smash is the Mii costume, and for that there was no fighter type that Krystal could easily be made into a Mii costume for. As it stands, she is among the most dynamic Assist Trophies presently in Ultimate.

Going further on the tangent relating to Shorts, I do think it is possible that without the work of Shorts, Krystal might never have even been an Assist Trophy in Ultimate. A lot of character support in general is driven by organization (just look at BKupa's work in regards to the K. Rool and the Kremling Kutthroats), and I think he did well in that regard. His polling work also provided an interesting snap shot into the past in regards to character requests during the pre-Smash 4 period. I might someday write something on the last poll he put out back in October 2014 (he passed away in November 2014), since I think it in particular offers a very stark contrast to the dominant character requests in the present and would offer a fascinating history lesson to those who have an interest in character speculation backstory.

However, for requests, Krystal held on as best as she could given her circumstances. I think, should the character ever have a major role in a Star Fox title ever again, she will have a resurgence in support and will at least be within the Top 20 most wanted characters overall.

Great post and a lot of quality insight but...

Now I'm thinking of Shorts. He didn't deserve to go out like that. I miss him.

 

[zumaddy]

Put in Plum from Mario Golf 64

Side note: Zell from ResetEra who is pretty reliable recently stated 'another stop before the main event' regarding Directs. Whether that means we're in a stop now until the next one, or that we have one more Mini Direct until a big one etc. I'm not sure. It seems like Nintendo has split up a lot stuff insiders expected to be revealed together. We'll have to wait and see, obviously.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Side note: Zell from ResetEra who is pretty reliable recently stated 'another stop before the main event' regarding Directs.

When did they say this?

 

[N3ON]

Geno (for me he is in playable already)
Crash (same here)

God bless but at least let your chickens hatch before you count them.

We really did luck out with Phil Spencer.

The real unsung hero is Pedro Darkinson and his tweet that launched a bajillion votes.

 

[zumaddy]

When did they say this?

37 minutes ago, as he wants more privacy regarding direct links I won't link to his comment, sorry.

 

[Shroob]

Put in Plum from Mario Golf 64

Side note: Zell from ResetEra who is pretty reliable recently stated 'another stop before the main event' regarding Directs. Whether that means we're in a stop now until the next one, or that we have one more Mini Direct until a big one etc. I'm not sure. It seems like Nintendo has split up a lot stuff insiders expected to be revealed together. We'll have to wait and see, obviously.

Well, if this is Nintendo's MO to drop announcements on Sunday and release them Monday for minis, we'll know within less than 24 hours.

 

[MattOnwheels]

Ok. Well, I mean the last two characters were specifically stated to be at the behest of other people, and the four before that to Nintendo generally, then three of the twelve before that attributed to the ballot, five because they worked as clones (and also the ballot), one was per Poke-mandate, and two happened to be huge, recent characters. Suspicious how despite all that rhyme and reason Sakurai just picked them cause he thought they'd be neat.

But hey, clearly no one other than Sakurai picked Piranha Plant.

The anything is possible argument is kinda weak because not only is it unlikely anyone was saying that "x is impossible" (unless they're not from gaming), but also because something simply not being impossible doesn't inherently mean it's at all likely.


What's required =/= What's entailed

You're oversimplifying if not skipping past the process and just landing on the outcome. If it was as basic as "hey they're fun", all the series in Smash wouldn't feature their top-billed cast in a descending hierarchy addition-wise, with a strong bent on recency and success. There's clearly methodology behind why the inclusion gets included.

I mean otherwise where's the one-off tertiary Zelda character? Where's the non-protag, non-Lord FE unit? Why do we never get some random-ass never-promoted Pokemon from like three gens back or whatever? Lord knows there are some "fun" options we don't get.

All respect, I stand by what I said. I think It should be clear to anyone that what im saying isn't as complicated as it's being presented here, and I find a lot of the interpretation of what I'm saying to be flawed. I don't know if perhaps It's my fault for not being clear in where i'm coming from or people just digging in to justify their reasons for denouncing certain characters, But I think your post takes what I said and contorts it. Specifically this:

"The anything is possible argument is kinda weak because not only is it unlikely anyone was saying that "x is impossible" (unless they're not from gaming), but also because something simply not being impossible doesn't inherently mean it's at all likely."

I'm sorry, but I have to take issue with this. Something about your wording seems to imply to me a lot of negativity toward my stance in general and I'm not sure I want to continue the conversation if this is the position you're looking at this from. I think it's incredibly disrespectful toward those of us who get a lot of flack for the characters we support and fails to recognize how hurtful people are in a lot of cases. Especially by disguising their gate keeping as "Telling you what you need to hear" - I sincerely hope this isn't your angle.

Nothing is impossible. At no point did i say something is always likely. Please do not confuse that.

 

[Peeton]

I finally decided to make what I want for the rest of fighter pass 2. Feel free to give ur opinions on it.View attachment 280164

I made this before Min Min came out so just replace waddle Dee with Min Min and that’s my dream pass!

 

[Shroob]

37 minutes ago, as he wants more privacy regarding direct links I won't link to his comment, sorry.

Also, if I may say


The intentions are pure

BUT

By saying "Hey guys, King Zell said this about Directs", you kinda inadvertently broke that privacy because now everyone's going to be running over to go look, lol.

 

[Will]

Also, if I may say


The intentions are pure

BUT

By saying "Hey guys, King Zell said this about Directs", you kinda inadvertently broke that privacy because now everyone's going to be running over to go look, lol.

no matter what he'll probably get bullied out of the community too when the time comes

 

[zumaddy]

Also, if I may say


The intentions are pure

BUT

By saying "Hey guys, King Zell said this about Directs", you kinda inadvertently broke that privacy because now everyone's going to be running over to go look, lol.

Actually I used the Zell name because he doesn't go by it anymore... so that was on purpose. He has no problems with his info being reported on but he doesn't really want an overabundance of direct links to everything he says, especially on his new account.

 

[MattOnwheels]

Actually I used the Zell name because he doesn't go by it anymore... so that was on purpose. He has no problems with his info being reported on but he doesn't really want an overabundance of direct links to everything he says, especially on his new account.

So let me get this straight: We're stuck, potentially, with one more "filler" direct before the "real" one?!

God, please no....

 

[Shroob]

Actually I used the Zell name because he doesn't go by it anymore... so that was on purpose. He has no problems with his info being reported on but he doesn't really want an overabundance of direct links to everything he says, especially on his new account.

Well, that's the thing tho.

Even bringing attention to it at all is enough to get people all abuzz.

The best case scenario for this case, if you really want to respect someone's privacy, is to not say anything at all, because now people are gonna go digging, at it'll be spread like crazy.

 

[PSIGuy]

So let me get this straight: We're stuck, potentially, with one more "filler" direct before the "real" one?!

God, please no....

Last filler direct gave us Shin Megami Tensei V news. This next one might disappoint a lot of people but I expect there to be an extremely pleased group of longwaiting fans as well.

 

[zumaddy]

Well, that's the thing tho.

Even bringing attention to it at all is enough to get people all abuzz.

The best case scenario for this case, if you really want to respect someone's privacy, is to not say anything at all, because now people are gonna go digging, at it'll be spread like crazy.

His stuff usually gets reported on by the likes of Nintendo Soup anyways, I figured I would post it here without mentioning his new account or directly link it to show him some courtesy. This isn't some ultra hidden or locked away stuff that's been leaked to Smashboards by me exclusively.... it can be located by those in the know, and it usually gets reported on indirectly by other sites later. It's a common courtesy given to him on Resetera.

 

[MattOnwheels]

Well, that's the thing tho.

Even bringing attention to it at all is enough to get people all abuzz.

The best case scenario for this case, if you really want to respect someone's privacy, is to not say anything at all, because now people are gonna go digging, at it'll be spread like crazy.

Well, did that information get told in confidence or in public? If it were the latter it would be his own fault no matter how low key he was.

 

[zumaddy]

Alright, let me be clear on this for the last time,

Zell posts under a new account on ResetEra. It's an open secret who he is and sites often report on what he says indirectly, but members generally like to not mention his new account name and keep things on the general down low regarding direct links to his posts or profile. It's not the end of the world when people mention his new account, but it's generally just a courtesy thing to just mention things he says without putting a direct spotlight on him.

That's all. No biggie.

 

[MattOnwheels]

Last filler direct gave us Shin Megami Tensei V news. This next one might disappoint a lot of people but I expect there to be an extremely pleased group of longwaiting fans as well.

Not wanting to alienate those people, I would argue it was still considered largely a throwaway direct save that announcement. For most, that's what it was regardless and if I were a SMT fan, i'd be mad this moment was wasted on an otherwise uninspired presentation.

This, however, is beside the point. Nintendo shouldn't drop these things piecemeal like this and I know most people aren't going to be happy with another direct of that last variety. Certainly not I as a consumer.

 

[Shroob]

Not wanting to alienate those people, I would argue it was still considered largely a throwaway direct save that announcement. For most, that's what it was regardless and if I were a SMT fan, i'd be mad this moment was wasted on an otherwise uninspired presentation.

This, however, is beside the point. Nintendo shouldn't drop these things piecemeal like this and I know most people aren't going to be happy with another direct of that last variety. Certainly not I as a consumer.

I mean, at the end of the day, Directs are just commercials. Glorified commercials.


To anyone who went into the Partner-specific direct expecting stuff like the Mario 35th stuff, you only had yourself to blame.



They more or less had to reveal the SMT stuff since it seemed like ATLUS had already lined up a reveal of gameplay for Nocturne HD in advance, and showed some a few days after the Direct. If they pull it again for another Direct? I honestly don't mind, because you shouldn't expect the world to begin with when you're being told "Partner-specific".


Does it suck it's being delivered in chunks and not all at once? Sure, but it'll get here when it gets here. Nintendo's still going to try to sell me stuff with their glorified commercials we all worship called a Nintendo Direct sooner or later, so to me, I'm in no hurry.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This, however, is beside the point. Nintendo shouldn't drop these things piecemeal like this and I know most people aren't going to be happy with another direct of that last variety. Certainly not I as a consumer.

I mean, if these directs are frequent, I wouldn't mind them.

New news every two weeks sounds like a pretty good deal.

I just don't have faith Nintendo will actually do that.

 

[Shroob]

I mean, if these directs are frequent, I wouldn't mind them.

New news every two weeks sounds like a pretty good deal.

I just don't have faith Nintendo will actually do that.

Agreed.


I could get used to this new age of "Mini-Direct every 2~ weeks give or take", but that seems like something Nintendo wouldn't do when we're lucky to get a single direct every 3-4 months as-is.


Not every Direct needs to be this massive bombshell of reveals. At the end of the day, they're glorified commercials, and if they set out what they're supposed to do, which is to post a trailer online with a little extra fanfare behind it, they've accomplished their mission, a like/dislike ratio on YouTube doesn't do much to that.

 

[MattOnwheels]

I mean, at the end of the day, Directs are just commercials. Glorified commercials.


To anyone who went into the Partner-specific direct expecting stuff like the Mario 35th stuff, you only had yourself to blame.



They more or less had to reveal the SMT stuff since it seemed like ATLUS had already lined up a reveal of gameplay for Nocturne HD in advance, and showed some a few days after the Direct. If they pull it again for another Direct? I honestly don't mind, because you shouldn't expect the world to begin with when you're being told "Partner-specific".


Does it suck it's being delivered in chunks and not all at once? Sure, but it'll get here when it gets here. Nintendo's still going to try to sell me stuff with their glorified commercials we all worship called a Nintendo Direct sooner or later, so to me, I'm in no hurry.

Its not a matter of anyone EXPECTING good things from it! Its--ugh...Its the fact that its a dirty and borderline useless tactic to do what they did and even HAVE a "Partner direct" at all.

I get what you're saying in the second half probably better than anyone on the entire website though, being an unabashed communist myself. There are times when Nintendo can be one of the most damning examples of Bourgeoisie behavior in the gaming industry (Which in itself is a cesspool)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Not wanting to alienate those people, I would argue it was still considered largely a throwaway direct save that announcement. For most, that's what it was regardless and if I were a SMT fan, i'd be mad this moment was wasted on an otherwise uninspired presentation.

This, however, is beside the point. Nintendo shouldn't drop these things piecemeal like this and I know most people aren't going to be happy with another direct of that last variety. Certainly not I as a consumer.

Damn, every SMT fan I've seen has cheered everywhere at 5 existing and Nocturne being more easily available so saying you'd complain that the announcements people were the most excited about were 'wasted' says more about you than the direct

 

[Shroob]

Its not a matter of anyone EXPECTING good things from it! Its--ugh...Its the fact that its a dirty and borderline useless tactic to do what they did and even HAVE a "Partner direct" at all.

I get what you're saying in the second half probably better than anyone on the entire website though, being an unabashed communist myself. There are times when Nintendo can be one of the most damning examples of Bourgeois behavior in the gaming industry (Which in itself is a cesspool)

Likewise, I'd welcome the change.


Potentially new news every 2~ weeks as opposed to 3-4 months of radio silence? Sign me up. I don't need every Direct to be this "WHOA!" drop, because frankly, more than half of Nintendo's directs have done nothing for me over the past 2 years outside of Smash and a handful of games. I'm more than okay with less content overall, but at a faster rate of delivery.

 

[MattOnwheels]

Damn, every SMT fan I've seen has cheered everywhere at 5 existing and Nocturne being more easily available so saying you'd complain that the announcements people were the most excited about were 'wasted' says more about you than the direct

I know If they revealed something I liked at the end in stead, I'd still be mad. That said, SMT fans waited forever so perhaps they're more forgiving. They still deserved better than to be at the tail end of that mess.

Likewise, I'd welcome the change.


Potentially new news every 2~ weeks as opposed to 3-4 months of radio silence? Sign me up. I don't need every Direct to be this "WHOA!" drop, because frankly, more than half of Nintendo's directs have done nothing for me over the past 2 years outside of Smash and a handful of games. I'm more than okay with less content overall, but at a faster rate of delivery.

It, err...doesn't sound like you're responding to me when you say this. I wasn't supporting the format. In fact I was more or less conceding that Directs are just capitalist tools of oppression the same as anything else, really.

 

[Shroob]

I know If they revealed something I liked at the end in stead, I'd still be mad. That said, SMT fans waited forever so perhaps they're more forgiving. They still deserved better than to be at the tail end of that mess.

It, err...doesn't sound like you're responding to me when you say this. I wasn't supporting the format. In fact I was more or less conceeding that Directs are just capitalist tools of oppression the same as anything else, really.

I mean, I'm a capitalist minded person so yes, that's exactly what I was getting at. I recognize that Nintendo is a business and Directs are their way to market hype, but in the current pandemic, with their schedules shifted around and stuff apparently going AWOL behind the scenes, people need to take a step back and realize that things are going to be different for the foreseeable future.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I know If they revealed something I liked at the end in stead, I'd still be mad. That said, SMT fans waited forever so perhaps they're more forgiving. They still deserved better than to be at the tail end of that mess.

It, err...doesn't sound like you're responding to me when you say this. I wasn't supporting the format. In fact I was more or less conceding that Directs are just capitalist tools of oppression the same as anything else, really.

I don't get it then, SMTV had it's first news in 3 and a half years and Atlus themselves said that Nocturne HD was made due to the vocal fans expressing their desire for it, considering how hard Atlus milks Persona, with P5 being ther biggest game yet, SMT fans were delighted that they weren't getting ignored once again, especially with the worldwide release. For SMT fans, this is significantly better than expected, this is beyond the scope of Nintendo confirmed Prime 4 exists

 

[N3ON]

All respect, I stand by what I said. I think It should be clear to anyone that what im saying isn't as complicated as it's being presented here, and I find a lot of the interpretation of what I'm saying to be flawed. I don't know if perhaps It's my fault for not being clear in where i'm coming from or people just digging in to justify their reasons for denouncing certain characters, But I think your post takes what I said and contorts it. Specifically this:

"The anything is possible argument is kinda weak because not only is it unlikely anyone was saying that "x is impossible" (unless they're not from gaming), but also because something simply not being impossible doesn't inherently mean it's at all likely."

I'm sorry, but I have to take issue with this. Something about your wording seems to imply to me a lot of negativity toward my stance in general and I'm not sure I want to continue the conversation if this is the position you're looking at this from. I think it's incredibly disrespectful toward those of us who get a lot of flack for the characters we support and fails to recognize how hurtful people are in a lot of cases. Especially by disguising their gate keeping as "Telling you what you need to hear" - I sincerely hope this isn't your angle.

Nothing is impossible. At no point did i say something is always likely. Please do not confuse that.

Yes, I am negative towards your stance; I disagree with it. I disagree with the selection process being as rudimentary as you suggest it is, and I think the current roster disproves your theory. Either that or it's the hugest coincidence in the world that Sakurai's "this would be fun" picks line up almost exactly with a method that implies a different rationale at work.

And I find fault with the "nothing's off the table" argument. One, because it either implies that people are suggesting characters are outright impossible, which no one was, or it's used to lend believability to characters who use the crutch of "Sakurai is unpredictable!" to lean on, typically in absence of more pertinent merits. And even then it doesn't help them any more than it does any other character, because the crux is chance and unpredictability.
It's true, but it's basically a non-point in most situations.

I mean if you're arguing in favour of Geno, there's better rhetoric out there than stressing Sakurai's unpredictability, especially given he's not choosing the characters. But this isn't even about who the character is, my reply had nothing to do with that. It's just arguments with which I disagree. The vast majority of my post was pertaining to your analysis of the selection process.

And, if I'm reading things correctly, that's an interesting insinuation that I'm being, I guess, exclusionary, by "telling others what they need to hear", but gate-keeping isn't my game. I'm not even sure what I'm allegedly gate-keeping against. Stances I disagree with? Supporters of divisive characters? You can think as you please, you can support who you want, that's your prerogative - but I intend to be forthright with my opinion if I disagree. I don't believe I was particularly rude, but if you find conversing with me unpleasant... I won't stop you from disengaging.

 

[MattOnwheels]

Yes, I am negative towards your stance; I disagree with it. I disagree with the selection process being as rudimentary as you suggest it is, and I think the current roster disproves your theory. Either that or it's the hugest coincidence in the world that Sakurai's "this would be fun" picks line up almost exactly with a method that implies a different rationale at work.

And I find fault with the "nothing's off the table" argument. One, because it either implies that people are suggesting characters are outright impossible, which no one was, or it's used to lend believability to characters who use the crutch of "Sakurai is unpredictable!" to lean on, typically in absence of more pertinent merits. And even then it doesn't help them any more than it does any other character, because the crux is chance and unpredictability.
It's true, but it's basically a non-point in most situations.

I mean if you're arguing in favour of Geno, there's better rhetoric out there than stressing Sakurai's unpredictability, especially given he's not choosing the characters. But this isn't even about who the character is, my reply had nothing to do with that. It's just arguments with which I disagree. The vast majority of my post was pertaining to your analysis of the selection process.

And, if I'm reading things correctly, that's an interesting insinuation that I'm being, I guess, exclusionary, by "telling others what they need to hear", but gate-keeping isn't my game. I'm not even sure what I'm allegedly gate-keeping against. Stances I disagree with? Supporters of divisive characters? You can think as you please, you can support who you want, that's your prerogative - but I intend to be forthright with my opinion if I disagree. I don't believe I was particularly rude, but if you find conversing with me unpleasant... I won't stop you from disengaging.

Please understand that I am extremely tired and frustrated at a number of things at the time of this post and don't mean any disrespect to you or what your intentions were. I apologize if anything I said seemed more aggressive than it needed to be. I was not trying to assume you were gate keeping as a default response. Moreso trying to caution that I hoped that wasn't what you were doing. Now that you've explained that I feel a little more at ease. I still feel you may not understand what I mean when I say no one is off the table, and even then I'd argue that there have been PLENTY of people who have said over the years that people who are fans of certain characters should "Just give up, bro" - there's a reason Ridley, K. Rool, Banjo and Geno were known collectively as "The Four Never-Ever's" and other such rudeness over the years. However, Regrettably I'm falling asleep and can't debate your points as much as I want. There's a valid point Im trying to make that I'm content to stand by, I'm just not articulating it well.

I'm sorry again, and I hope I wasn't out of line.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

if I were a SMT fan, i'd be mad this moment was wasted on an otherwise uninspired presentation.

Funny you say that, most SMT fans were over the moon after that mini direct. They were beyond happy because not only did they see more new SMT but they also got a Nocturne remaster

 

[PLANTMAN]

So let me get this straight: We're stuck, potentially, with one more "filler" direct before the "real" one?!

God, please no....

Yep
& another one next month
& the next month & the next month & the next month & the next month & the next month(keeps going on) with no Sign of smash news idk why lots hate it? I like it.

 

[CannonStreak]

About that Nintendo Direct Partners Showcase thing, are there supposed to be three parts to it?

 

[PLANTMAN]

About that Nintendo Direct Partners Showcase thing, are there supposed to be three parts to it?

Idk maybe?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

One unexpected benefit to the recent partner direct is that its lowered my expectations so much that any future presentations that are even halfway interesting will be seem quite impressive by comparison.

"Hey this has more significant content than a WWE 2K game, nicely done Nintendo."

 

[CannonStreak]

Idk maybe?

I asked because I think this Partnership Showcase is a two parter, with a general Direct coming in August.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

At this point I'd honestly rather Nintendo just stop doing direct and drop some announcement on twitter and youtube if they're planning to continue the partner mini showcase. What was the point of last one? Yeah, I know that they said it was partner only so I wasn't expecting Mario 35th anniversary, botw 2, Metroid 2d etc. But I and many others were expecting Bayonetta 3 news, No mode Heroes release date, Bravely default 2 etc. When Nintendo announce a direct, expectations will be quite high no matter what they say before.

Si what's the point of doing a "direct" if you plan to show 2 shovelware and 1 remaster of a beloved game and 1 highly anticipated games? All of this could have been drop on twitter. At this point I'd rather see a small announcement on Twitter each week instead of wait 3-4 weeks for a "direct" that will have 1 good announcement.