Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

This isn't a judgment, but a sober expression of why Tekken and Tales haven't been upgraded from Sm4sh. And why it's useless to wait for them.

The comparisons honestly don't make any sense. First, we don't know why Heihachi was dismissed, but it looks more like his 3D issues were difficult to implement. Mind you, in 2D, it is possible he might be difficult to transfer over with a mechanic different from Ryu.

Banjo-Kazooie has nothing in common with Mario. Hero isn't remotely similar to Cloud. They have nothing in common beyond obviously owning a sword and being owned by Square-Enix. I get the light comparisons between Joker and Cloud. They do depend upon a special bar, and to some degree, have the "upgraded moves when bar is at maximum", but they're very very different overall in how they work. One directly charges it, and they have a pretty different variety of attacks. In addition to that, one is a controlled ability while the other is something automatic.

Just because they come from the same genre doesn't make them automatically similar too.

 

[Megadoomer]

This isn't a judgment, but a sober expression of why Tekken and Tales haven't been upgraded from Sm4sh. And why it's useless to wait for them.

It seems premature to say that they're not going to make it into Smash. Heihachi was considered for Smash 4's base game, and while Pac-Man made it in over him, it's Pac-Man - Shigeru Miyamoto, of all people, was pushing for him, and if any Namco-Bandai character was going to get in, Pac-Man easily seems like the top priority.

 

[Gran-Rojo]

Tekken is a really hot property right now too, Tekken 7 is doing extremely well and recently passed 4 million sales despite coming out years ago. A crossover with smash would be huge and make a lot of sense.

 

[RileyXY1]

Tekken is a really hot property right now too, Tekken 7 is doing extremely well and recently passed 4 million sales despite coming out years ago. A crossover with smash would be huge and make a lot of sense.

The only problem would be transferring Tekken's mechanics, which were meant for 3D, into 2D.

 

[Gran-Rojo]

The only problem would be transferring Tekken's mechanics, which were meant for 3D, into 2D.

Street fighter x Tekken exists so we've seen tekken characters in a 2d space before.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Street fighter x Tekken exists so we've seen tekken characters in a 2d space before.

That's not the same thing. It was meant to be a literal Street Fighter game, and just throwing the character with moves that simply can work in 2D. It's not like the animation would be hard to do. It's just like how easily Heihachi was put in Soul Calibur. He fits well in there without any liberties. It's not that difficult to just give input commands, while leaving off certain 3D-related abilities.

It wasn't actually attempted to make Heihachi actually feel like himself. That's very different from what Sakurai is going for. Which is to transfer the mechanics from the actual game over, though obviously some liberties must be taken to make it balanced. The only reason Heihachi can be worked in faithfully to his mechanics is because Tekken has gone 2D, so the 3D parts aren't a key factor to make the character work. That's very difficult to transfer over to a 2D game(which Street Fighter x Tekken wasn't attempting to do so).

Basically? Apples to Oranges situation. Different developers with different ideas of how characters should work.

 

[RileyXY1]

Not only that, there's plenty of other choices from Namco Bandai alone, as Tales, Soul Calibur, Digimon, and Dark Souls are all equally viable franchises to choose from.

 

[Gran-Rojo]

That's not the same thing. It was meant to be a literal Street Fighter game, and just throwing the character with moves that simply can work in 2D. It's not like the animation would be hard to do. It's just like how easily Heihachi was put in Soul Calibur. He fits well in there without any liberties. It's not that difficult to just give input commands, while leaving off certain 3D-related abilities.

It wasn't actually attempted to make Heihachi actually feel like himself. That's very different from what Sakurai is going for. Which is to transfer the mechanics from the actual game over, though obviously some liberties must be taken to make it balanced. The only reason Heihachi can be worked in faithfully to his mechanics is because Tekken has gone 2D, so the 3D parts aren't a key factor to make the character work. That's very difficult to transfer over to a 2D game(which Street Fighter x Tekken wasn't attempting to do so).

Basically? Apples to Oranges situation. Different developers with different ideas of how characters should work.

Heihachi was also in PS All Stars, which would probably more closely represent his moveset if he made it into smash more than SFxT.

I see your point though, as Ryu was given multiple inputs to feel like Street Fighter. It's been a while since I played any Tekken, but what abilities do any characters have that are reliant on the 3d fighter mechanics? I know sidestepping is important, but aren't the inputs still 2 dimensional for the most part?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Heihachi was also in PS All Stars, which would probably more closely represent his moveset if he made it into smash more than SFxT.

I see your point though, as Ryu was given multiple inputs to feel like Street Fighter. It's been a while since I played any Tekken, but what abilities do any characters have that are reliant on the 3d fighter mechanics? I know sidestepping is important, but aren't the inputs still 2 dimensional for the most part?

I haven't played Tekken in forever. I just remember that Street Fighter x Tekken was made with a different intent for adding characters than what Smash likes to do.

So I can't answer your question, honestly. I think Heihachi absolutely can be made playable. I just understand what Sakurai means. 3D mechanics, if they are key, are very difficult to transfer over to a pure 2D plane. It's why I don't expect a Soul Calibur character, since the characters constantly focus on changing planes as a major part of battle. I play it way more. To my understanding, Tekken does focus on 3D, at least till the latest game, which is 2D now?

Though I can't fully answer you, I'm just glad you get what I mean by why the analogy doesn't work. Incidentally, Tekken doesn't interest me as a game, but eh. I'm more of a Soul, Tales of, and Digimon fan among Bandai-Namco stuff. Tales of I got first introduced to via Symphonia. I think the first Soul game I played was Soul Blade on the PlayStation. I had a Dreamcast after my GameCube, so... I played some out of order, heh. I only played Tekken Tag Team Tournament via Arcade(and don't remember much at all), but also did play as Heihachi in Soul Calibur, and while he wasn't a good character due to having no range at all, he felt like he fit into the game super well to me. I just didn't like the lack of weapons. Mechanics-wise, he was fun overall(not as fun as Link and Spawn to me).

 

[Guynamednelson]

Heihachi was also in PS All Stars, which would probably more closely represent his moveset if he made it into smash more than SFxT.

The PS All-Stars moveset also has some creative liberties Sakurai wouldn't make. It gives Heihachi a projectile, while Sakurai would want to represent how Tekken almost completely lacks them.

 

[Gran-Rojo]

I haven't played Tekken in forever. I just remember that Street Fighter x Tekken was made with a different intent for adding characters than what Smash likes to do.

So I can't answer your question, honestly. I think Heihachi absolutely can be made playable. I just understand what Sakurai means. 3D mechanics, if they are key, are very difficult to transfer over to a pure 2D plane. It's why I don't expect a Soul Calibur character, since the characters constantly focus on changing planes as a major part of battle. I play it way more. To my understanding, Tekken does focus on 3D, at least till the latest game, which is 2D now?

Though I can't fully answer you, I'm just glad you get what I mean by why the analogy doesn't work. Incidentally, Tekken doesn't interest me as a game, but eh. I'm more of a Soul, Tales of, and Digimon fan among Bandai-Namco stuff. Tales of I got first introduced to via Symphonia. I think the first Soul game I played was Soul Blade on the PlayStation. I had a Dreamcast after my GameCube, so... I played some out of order, heh. I only played Tekken Tag Team Tournament via Arcade(and don't remember much at all), but also did play as Heihachi in Soul Calibur, and while he wasn't a good character due to having no range at all, he felt like he fit into the game super well to me. I just didn't like the lack of weapons. Mechanics-wise, he was fun overall(not as fun as Link and Spawn to me).

I did a bit of research on the inputs and found one for EWGF, which I believe is an iconic Tekken move. It seems to be an input that can translate to Smash pretty well like the Hadoken input. I think Tekken 7 is still 3d, but you're right about the movement compared to Soulcalibur, it's much easier to move around the 3d plane in SC.

I'm the same way when it comes to Bandai-Namco tbh (I gotta get around to playing a tales game though), I prefer Soulcalibur to Tekken but it's not surprising considering SCs presence on Nintendo systems compared to Tekken. Personally, I would be happy with any additional Bandai Namco property in smash, I feel that they're overdue for another character. I just think that Tekken is the most likely BN franchise due to it's current popularity.

 

[KillerCage]

There's also Nightmare from Soul Calibur, Agumon from Digimon, KOS-MOS from Xenosaga, Jin or Kazuya from Tekken, other Tales protagonists... Namco-Bandai has plenty of other options.

I think too many people are sleeping on Nightmare and Agumon. Soul Calibur seperates itself from Tekken with its weapon-based characters and it has a small, but strong connection to Nintendo considering that Link was a guest character in the Gamecube version of Soul Calibur II. Digimon was considered a rival to the juggernaut that is Pokemon (at least in the West.)

If we were to get a Tekken, it makes sense for either Kazuya or Jin to represent the series. I reckon Sakurai could create a moveset for either of them since both Kazuya and Jin have the Devil Gene.

KOS-MOS... I love you girl, but your series is far more niche than Bayonetta or Persona. I feel most people know her only from the Project X Zone games or Xenoblade Chronicles 2.

I can't say much Tales characters since I know very little of the series aside from Tales of Symphonia, Abyss, and Vesperia. The only character besides Lloyd that got serious discussion was Yuri and that was in regards to the code-name BRAVE who turned out to be the Hero from Dragon Quest.

I feel the Namco Bandai characters that have the best shot of getting into Smash are Nightmare, Jin, Kazuya, and Agumon. This is all based on my current knowledge of all their franchises so if I overlooked something, that is the reason why.

 

[Gran-Rojo]

The PS All-Stars moveset also has some creative liberties Sakurai wouldn't make. It gives Heihachi a projectile, while Sakurai would want to represent how Tekken almost completely lacks them.

His projectile in that game is not a creative liberty and is a direct reference to the bowling and ball minigames in Tekken though, which is something I could see Sakurai referencing in a moveset

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Capcom got Ken as well for the base game.

Capcom got Ken.

I’m a fool in man’s shoes.

I still think Bamco and Capcom have a solid chance at getting the last two slots though.
My personal picks would be Heihachi and either Dante or Phoenix Wright. I’ll honestly take either and be thrilled.

 

[Icedragonadam]

Ken is an echo not a unique character. I still believe Resident Evil is one of the final two along with Tales.

 

[Flik]

Between Tekken and Smash Bros, the only gameplay aspect that clashes that would be the big jumps in Smash, Tekken characters rarely jump more than 2 meters. Being 3D shouldn't be an issue because Tekken still plays like a 2D Fighting Game, you can still beat the game and be a decent plyer without moving to the background or foreground at all. To me at least, Tekken's core gameplay style isn't the 3D movement, it's the combos you do by pressing different button combinations: Kazuya's right kick is a high roundhouse kick, but if used after a left punch and right punch, he will do a low kick.

Also, if Sakurai can't make a Tekken character fight in Smash like they do in Tekken (gameplay wise), maybe he should instead focus on making the character fight like him/herself would? You don't need to bring gameplay elements from Tekken to make, say, Yoshimitsu feel like Yoshimitsu: give him his weird moves and animations and he would still feel like his Tekken (and Soul Calibur) incarnation. And it's not like the vast majority of the smash Bros roster play like they do in their original games (or else f*****g Pichu wouldn't be top tier because it's a baby pokemon with really low stats, Simon and Richter would have a limited use of their weapons and Cloud wouln't be able to manually fill his Limit Gauge). The gimmick shouldn't be more important than the character itself.

With that said...

If we were to get a Tekken, it makes sense for either Kazuya or Jin to represent the series. I reckon Sakurai could create a moveset for either of them since both Kazuya and Jin have the Devil Gene.

... one gimmick that could be brough from Tekken that would 100% fit in Smash would be Kazuya's devil form: It's can be activated when he is in rage status and it allows him to shoot laser and fly, among other moveset changes. In Smash, it could be activated when he reaches 100% damage and would giving him a projectile and a much better recovery option. You can't manually turn Jin to his devil form in Tekken 7, but from what it looks like on the ending, he can control it now like his father so this gimmick could be applied to him now.

Unless Katsuhiro "Heihachi" Harada says "Heihachi or nothing", of course...

 

[Deleted member]

Not sure why some people are sleeping on Bamco when they have quite a few popular series.

I would say that people keep forgetting Dark Souls from Bamco which is a popular franchise and even got the first game released on Switch. Tales offers relatively distinct things compared to other RPG series and the combat in many of the entries is done in a linear fashion just like Smash, Yuri and Lloyd could offer quite unique things each. Tekken main difficulty was Sakurai not figuring out how to present Heihachi but things might have changed now just like Ridley. There are also some more niche franchises like Xenosaga that have a very remote chance as well.

P. S. Soul Calibur main issue is having many characters that could represent it, so I wouldn't call a sure bet on Nightmare when Mitsurugi, Sophitia, Siegfried (technically), Cervantes, Xianghua and maybe Ivy or Taki could also represent SC.

 

[GoodGrief741]

This isn't a judgment, but a sober expression of why Tekken and Tales haven't been upgraded from Sm4sh. And why it's useless to wait for them.

Oh, you must come from the future! Then, pray tell, O Wise Man, he who knoweth what is to come, who are the last two fighters?

 

[YsDisciple]

So, it just occurred to me. In this year's EVO, SSBU will be the main event. Before it however, is Tekken 7. I'MA GONNA SAY IT GUYS!!! Initiating REACHING mode; Heihachi 4th DLC fighter announcement after SSBU Grand Finals!!!

 

[Gran-Rojo]

I think the main issue with Soulcalibur getting in Smash is that it's been struggling as a franchise since SC5 unfortunately. Soulcalibur 6 came out last year and it's already dying in terms of popularity; the amount of EVO entrants compared to Smash and Tekken 7 are pretty low. I think BN would want to prioritize their more successful franchises like Tales or Tekken in Smash first.

 

[KillerCage]

P. S. Soul Calibur main issue is having many characters that could represent it, so I wouldn't call a sure bet on Nightmare when Mitsurugi, Sophitia, Siegfried (technically), Cervantes, Xianghua and maybe Ivy or Taki could also represent SC.

Sure all these characters could represent Soul Calibur, but to the general audience the two most iconic characters are Nightmare and Ivy. Out of the two, I don't think Ivy would get in due her preferred choice of... dress though her whip-sword would offer a unique moveset. Siegfried could be an alternate costume for Nightmare considering their connection.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I feel like KOS-MOS’s chances are grossly underestimated. The West may know of her through the PXZ games and Xenoblade 2 (and Xenosaga for those who got to play the original PS2 games) but in Japan, wew she’s an even BIGGER deal. She’s been in several Japan exclusive crossover video games, AND has a TON of merch of her like Figmas and stuff. She’s pretty much another Namco mascot like PAC MAN at this point.

Not to mention, a trademark was filed JUST LAST YEAR for a Xenosaga HD Trilogy...

 

[Icedragonadam]

So, it just occurred to me. In this year's EVO, SSBU will be the main event. Before it however, is Tekken 7. I'MA GONNA SAY IT GUYS!!! Initiating REACHING mode; Heihachi 4th DLC fighter announcement after SSBU Grand Finals!!!

Yeah, just like how Heihachi was going to be revealed at EVO last year right?

 

[RileyXY1]

It's the same thing with Capcom. There's more potential franchises to be added than just Resident Evil, with Devil May Cry, Ace Attorney, Okami, and Monster Hunter as some examples.

 

[Deleted member]

Sure all these characters could represent Soul Calibur, but to the general audience the two most iconic characters are Nightmare and Ivy. Out of the two, I don't think Ivy would get in due her preferred choice of... dress though her whip-sword would offer a unique moveset. Siegfried could be an alternate costume for Nightmare considering their connection.

Mate, Mitsurugi is one of the only characters to appear in every entry and is a relatively popular character, Siegfried is the closest thing you got to an overall protagonist and if included I could easily see a situation where Nightmare is the costume instead just like in Soul Edge. Sophitia and Taki are also some of the most well known recurring characters and both only skipped 5. Xianghua was kind of the protagonist of Soul Calibur (second game in the series).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think Hero is coming September and Banjo is coming December, within the first 20 days. Fighters 4 and 5 are revealed in a January Direct, 4 releases day of, 5 releases February 29th 2020.

Yes, this is hyper-cynical.

I dunno. This seems about right to me. Though I thing Banjo & Kazooie will be more like late November.

It's the same thing with Capcom. There's more potential franchises to be added than just Resident Evil, with Devil May Cry, Ace Attorney, Okami, and Monster Hunter as some examples.

Not to mention Ghosts 'n Goblins and Darkstalkers.

Okami is still objectively the best choice with no bias whatsoever.

Mate, Mitsurugi is one of the only characters to appear in every entry and is a relatively popular character, Siegfried is the closest thing you got to an overall protagonist and if included I could easily see a situation where Nightmare is the costume instead just like in Soul Edge. Sophitia and Taki are also some of the most well known recurring characters and both only skipped 5. Xianghua was kind of the protagonist of Soul Calibur (second game in the series).

Wasn't Mitsurugi the character they showed off in the reveal trailer for Soul Caliber 6 (along with some other chick)?

 

[perfectchaos83]

So, it just occurred to me. In this year's EVO, SSBU will be the main event. Before it however, is Tekken 7. I'MA GONNA SAY IT GUYS!!! Initiating REACHING mode; Heihachi 4th DLC fighter announcement after SSBU Grand Finals!!!

We're likely to not even have Hero released by that time. We aren't getting another reveal before Banjo's eventual release.

 

[OrpheusTelos]

Yeah, just like how Heihachi was going to be revealed at EVO last year right?

God don't give me flashbacks to that weird riddle "leak" everyone was trying to decipher a year ago. We really are in a vicious cycle of everyone expecting a Heihachi Smash reveal at EVO and then ultimately being let down, are we?

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

I know this is off-topic and a pretty bad question but what video game character would you really hate to see in the fighter pass.(my own awnser is any poorly done political main character)

 

[GoodGrief741]

I know this is off-topic and a pretty bad question but what video game character would you really hate to see in the fighter pass.(my own awnser is any poorly done political main character)

Steve, anyone from Fate.

 

[Deleted member]

I dunno. This seems about right to me. Though I thing Banjo & Kazooie will be more like late November.


Not to mention Ghosts 'n Goblins and Darkstalkers.

Okami is still objectively the best choice with no bias whatsoever.


Wasn't Mitsurugi the character they showed off in the reveal trailer for Soul Caliber 6 (along with some other chick)?

Yes. He was in the initial reveal along with Sophitia.

I know this is off-topic and a pretty bad question but what video game character would you really hate to see in the fighter pass.(my own awnser is any poorly done political main character)

Lightning from FFXIII. Its the only one that I wouldn't like too much.

 

[Idon]

I know this is off-topic and a pretty bad question but what video game character would you really hate to see in the fighter pass.(my own awnser is any poorly done political main character)

Probably a Three Houses/Galar Pokemon character. I'm really opposed to anyone that hasn't actually proven themselves as a likable character within the community before being put into Smash. Not to say I wouldn't be fine with them later if I do turn out to actually like them, but for Ultimate's Figther's Pass? To top it all off with those types of characters after the stars we got for the first 3? That'd be a downer.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

I dunno. This seems about right to me. Though I thing Banjo & Kazooie will be more like late November.

It has to be earlier than that. We still have 4 and 5 after Banjo to be revealed and release before February.

Hero July
Banjo mid-late September
4 November/December
5 February

That’s what I’m leaning on

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I know this is off-topic and a pretty bad question but what video game character would you really hate to see in the fighter pass.(my own awnser is any poorly done political main character)

Galar starter. I reeeeeealy don't think another starter Pokémon would be a good idea, fighters pass or otherwise.

EDIT: At least do the vastly superior Legendary Pokémon.

 

[Will]

I dunno. This seems about right to me. Though I thing Banjo & Kazooie will be more like late November.

dial it back

if you release hero this month and give banjo out in september/october, that gives 2-3 months for #4 to be made and sent out

 

[Sari]

I know this is off-topic and a pretty bad question but what video game character would you really hate to see in the fighter pass.(my own awnser is any poorly done political main character)

Steve, Rabbids, any Fortnite character, and any Gen VIII Pokemon.

 

[RWyvern]

I know this is off-topic and a pretty bad question but what video game character would you really hate to see in the fighter pass.(my own awnser is any poorly done political main character)

Steve (I have a bias against minecraft b/c the visual style murders my eyes and gives me motion sickness lol), any undertale character (because the game’s about pacifism, with fighting/winning battles being the exception rather than the norm. I feel it’d just be a bit weird?).

Though I’d gladly take one or the other as long as one of my most wanteds gets in. Kass would be great, he could smack opponents on the head with a very tough accordion.

 

[Nemuresu]

I know this is off-topic and a pretty bad question but what video game character would you really hate to see in the fighter pass.(my own awnser is any poorly done political main character)

Any Pokémon or Fire Emblem character really.

Imagine telling people that your characters will be worth buying, making them happy and later disappointing them with that. It's basically not learning from history.

 

[Izanagi97]

I feel like KOS-MOS’s chances are grossly underestimated. The West may know of her through the PXZ games and Xenoblade 2 (and Xenosaga for those who got to play the original PS2 games) but in Japan, wew she’s an even BIGGER deal. She’s been in several Japan exclusive crossover video games, AND has a TON of merch of her like Figmas and stuff. She’s pretty much another Namco mascot like PAC MAN at this point.

Not to mention, a trademark was filed JUST LAST YEAR for a Xenosaga HD Trilogy...

Yeah, I'm actually interested in KOS-MOS getting in as well. The question would be, if Fighter 4 and 5 are an Eastern and Western focused thing like Hero and Banjo are, where would KOS-MOS? I ask that because I can see her fitting both

Probably a Three Houses/Galar Pokemon character. I'm really opposed to anyone that hasn't actually proven themselves as a likable character within the community before being put into Smash. Not to say I wouldn't be fine with them later if I do turn out to actually like them, but for Ultimate's Figther's Pass? To top it all off with those types of characters after the stars we got for the first 3? That'd be a downer.

Yeah, save those for a second fighter's pass. Last thing we need is another Corrin situation

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I know this is off-topic and a pretty bad question but what video game character would you really hate to see in the fighter pass.(my own awnser is any poorly done political main character)

No one, really. I just can't hate characters over simply being in a game. It doesn't feel fruitful to me to focus on something like that. I'd rather just have preferences and shrug when someone I don't prefer gets in. Feels more healthy to me that way.