Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Diddy Kong]

I don't think its really big mystery as to why there was some antipathy towards Byleth.

You have a franchise that's already accused by some of being over-represented, from a game genre many Smash fans don't play (and potentially an art style some may not like to boot), as the fifth character in fighter's pass that all had distinct third party newcomers, and in a mystery presentation that had nothing to mitigate fans that weren't interested in them (no other Nintendo news, no other character reveals, no hints as to when the next fighter was even coming).

Whether you agree with any of that reasoning or think its fair or unfair, the ensuing salt about Byleth is hardly some enigma if you even anything about the context.

Smash fans really have no excuse not to have played Fire Emblem at this point, all characters from Fire Emblem have been very popular constantly throughout the years. Ultimate also didn't have a proper Fire Emblem newcomer, just Chrom initially as a Echo with Ike's Up B.

Three Houses did awesome, deserves all it's praise, and any Switch owner would seriously do well purchasing it. Or at least acknowledge it's success. There's no reason to HATE an entire franchise for it having 3 DLC characters throughout the course of 2 games, and one of them being a beloved veteran with Roy.

Fire Emblem is an awesome franchise, which has a lot of its international success to thank to Smash Bros. exposure, and happens to have a suitable protagonist for Smash each release. There's still people who want main characters as Celica, Hector, Lyn or even Micaiah or the Black Knight in. Outside of that, the Fire Emblem mobile game Heroes is also doing better than bigger franchises Mario and Animal Crossing mobile games.

You're overlooking the facts because you're biased.

 

[Door Key Pig]

Well, we'd only be tying the number of Links and Samuses in the game, plus there's no denying Paper Mario would be extremely unique to vanilla Mario. I don't think being a third Mario is necessarily why people would be displeased with Paper Mario joining the battle.

I mean we basically already have three Marios counting "Green Mario" who has a similar playstyle, and that's not even getting into "Bad Mario".

 

[SharkLord]

So what you're saying is I missed the bizarre "Sakurai has chest fetish" post and the ensuing reactions for another Fire Emblem argument?

Man, I really missed out (Or maybe I was spared. Hard to say).

But yeah, what even...? We've hit a new level of absurd crackheaded speculation. Pack it up guys, we're not getting any better than this.

 

[MooMew64]

Given the people leaking this Direct are saying to keep expectations low, I wouldn't go in expecting two Smash reveals, personally.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

It seems most likely to me that E3 was likely intended to be Min Min and then a sneak peak at whoever Challenger Pack 7 is supposed to be.

I think going beyond that is pushing it. If they reveal two characters at the same time now, we'd go another 6 months without something "new". If you reveal one now, which is shortly after Min Min, that still leaves you with a shorter amount of time (2-3 months) until you would ordinarily reveal CP8. But then there's another 12 months until Volume 2 is scheduled to be finished, meaning they would still need to split 3 more characters through 2021.

If Sakurai was being honest when he said development was on track, then I assume we'll get a hint at the next fighter soon enough, hopefully in the next Direct, regardless of it being full or mini.

 

[Thewafflemaker2000]

Directs typically air on thursdays its kinda hard to believe the monday thing

 

[MasterOfKnees]

My main issue is people complain about the sword users, yet we have just as many punchy kick characters and no one seems to take offense

Because punchy kick characters are, and always have been, the standard. As varied as Smash is, it's still a fighting game, complaining about punchy kickies is like complaining about the amount of cars present in a racing game.

 

[Opossum]

BeCAuSe PaPEr MaRiO is MaDE oF PaPPeR

Except he wasn't supposed to be in the first three games.

Except he WAS made of paper then. TTYD literally has you turn into a paper airplane and a rolled up paper tube for puzzles and whatnot. I don't know what this revisionism accomplishes.

 

[SharkLord]

How'd you all feel if we got nothing on Monday, only for an announcement of a full Thursday Direct the following day?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Spoiler: Persona 5

he still killed countless people in his pursuit of this goal, including Futaba's mom

Spoiler: Persona 5

I'd more put the blame on Futaba and Haru's mum on Shido myself, he was an absolute ****.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

Except he WAS made of paper then. TTYD literally has you turn into a paper airplane and a rolled up paper tube for puzzles and whatnot. I don't know what this revisionism accomplishes.

Except the whole game didn't focus on paper. Those abilities are not only a small part of the game, but they're also treated as freaky **** that no one else in the game's universe can do, and Mario can only do them due to being "cursed".

 

[Thewafflemaker2000]

My main issue is people complain about the sword users, yet we have just as many punchy kick characters and no one seems to take offense

Theres a dozen other categories than sword poeple. Thats how smash made its name so thats what many people came to like smash bros for because of the variety and possibilities could be endless.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think, overall, I could take the "stop adding sword-users" argument a bit more seriously if there was an actual pool of characters that used different weapons that also functioned differently from fighters who use other weapons.

Not only is there an extreme lack of protagonists/mascots that are non-sword users (it seems most sources have characters using either a sword or magic, but hardly ever an axe or lance), but where are those characters in terms of their "chances" of getting into Smash?

I don't think there's actually pretty much any character that immediately stands out. The only one I can think of that isn't "disconfirmed" is Ephraim from an older Fire Emblem game. He uses a lance.

Bandanna Waddle Dee uses a lance, but a lance would work pretty similarly to how Marth's tipper or Ridley's down b works, in terms of a sweet spot. Byleth also literally uses a lance.

Again, I don't think it's just about the weapon. I think it's more, "I don't play Fire Emblem and don't like it for shallow reasons, including never playing it" but also, "that's not the character I wanted". To be honest, neither of those are inherently terrible reasons for not being excited for a particular character. But those also aren't great reasons to say that said character is a "bad addition".

Of course, when you can still add unique sword users to Smash after having so many of them, I feel it's a moot point anyway.

 

[Schnee117]

Just because the first 3 games weren't obnoxious about the Paper gimmick doesn't mean that Mario wasn't made of paper back in those games lol

How'd you all feel if we got nothing on Monday, only for an announcement of a full Thursday Direct the following day?

I'd be wondering why Nintendo decided to wait almost a full week to tell us what's coming out this year after Paper Mario and also wonder why they'd have it on the exact same day Xbox has it's big showcase.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

I think one of the worst things done to Paper Mario as a series was explaining how Paper Mario was a separate universe entirely from the other Mario games. It not only retconned a bunch of interesting characters from never having met the "real" Mario/Peach/Bowser, but pigeonholed said universe to be solely defined by how it was made of paper rather than using the paper as a medium to tell a story.

Imagine if Zelda made a game explaining why everyone evolved from the more realistic Ocarina of Time/Twilight Princess models into the more bobbleheaded and cartoony Wind Waker designs, it's a needless answer to a question nobody asked.

 

[Guynamednelson]

"ugh, it's another Fire Emblem character"
"ugh, you don't want 20 more Fire Emblem characters"
Can we go back to the guy thinking we'd get a boob rep?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Wait...we're not actually arguing if Mario was made out of Paper in a game literally titled Paper Mario...a-are we?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Except he WAS made of paper then. TTYD literally has you turn into a paper airplane and a rolled up paper tube for puzzles and whatnot. I don't know what this revisionism accomplishes.

It's even noticeable in the first game when he floats down onto the ground like a piece of paper. They've always made it clear he's made of paper from game one. The whole world is. That's why you can knock down bushes which just collapse. The puzzles even do this, like a bridge unfolding itself.

The only thing that changed at any point was the artstyle and more emphasis on the paper stuff. But it's pretty much the same thing in the end for what his abilities are overall. Super Paper Mario is one of the best ones where the 3D World thing works because he's outright paper in a 3D environment, which is why he can't see enemies at all, because they're literally in 2D form, forcing you to turn the world around with his new ability. Every single game has its own notable point of "yes, they're paper". It's only Paper Mario 64 that somewhat less emphasis that factor, even then.

 

[Thewafflemaker2000]

I think the point people are trying to make about the sword problem is not that they are the exact same. its that they are all based on the same concept with little variety

 

[chocolatejr9]

Just because the first 3 games weren't obnoxious about the Paper gimmick doesn't mean that Mario wasn't made of paper back in those games lol



I'd be wondering why Nintendo decided to wait almost a full week to tell us what's coming out this year after Paper Mario and also wonder why they'd have it on the exact same day Xbox has it's big showcase.

Because they know people would be more interested in the Direct?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

"ugh, it's another Fire Emblem character"
"ugh, you don't want 20 more Fire Emblem characters"
Can we go back to the guy thinking we'd get a boob rep?

No, I think that discussion was still way worse.

 

[Guynamednelson]

No, I think that discussion was still way worse.

Bad, but at least it wasn't something we haven't seen 20 million times.

 

[toonito]

I wonder what Smash fans feel about fighting games like SoulCaliber or Samurai Shodown where half the roster is just swords

Within the Smash fandom SC and SS would probably receive better reception than Terry did but I can already hear the "another fighting gaem? no moar inputs" mantra now

truth be told i never bought in to the too many anime swordsmen argument i specifically think it's rooted in too many FE characters relative to its popularity

if it was strictly about anime swordsmen Lloyd, Dante, Sora, Hayabusa, Travis Touchdown, etc. wouldn't have as significant fanbases as they do.

Unless cuts are made Byleth and any other FE character regardless of their game's popularity will receive significant backlash in Smash

 

[TwiceEXE]

"ugh, it's another Fire Emblem character"
"ugh, you don't want 20 more Fire Emblem characters"
Can we go back to the guy thinking we'd get a boob rep?

Sure, on Monday when we get an ARMS style teaser:

"The fighter included in wave 7 of the paid Super Smash Bros. Ultimate DLC will be... a character with breasts."

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

"ugh, it's another Fire Emblem character"
"ugh, you don't want 20 more Fire Emblem characters"
Can we go back to the guy thinking we'd get a boob rep?

That's a complete mischaracterization of the conversation and you know it. Nobody actively wants 20 more Fire Emblem characters, and frankly anybody expecting another Fire Emblem character, with no Fire Emblem game currently in sight, is being pessimistic to their own interests.

It's much more nuanced than just being about Fire Emblem.

I didn't say we couldn't talk about the boob rep tho.

 

[MooMew64]

Wait...we're not actually arguing if Mario was made out of Paper in a game literally titled Paper Mario...a-are we?

Flee while you still can, for madness has taken us.

I fear to think what Monday will look like if nothing happens.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Bad, but at least it wasn't something we haven't seen 20 million times.

I mean sure, but it was stupid to ask and was just unnecessary. It also seemed pretty sexist, by asking if we'd get a girl in Smash just because of tiddies. Like we're probably going to get Pyra/Mythra in the pass somehow (Presumably with Rex), so we would get a fighter with big boobs, but it wouldn't solely be because of the breasts that we're getting them.

It's just a stupid argument, and we should never bring this up again.

 

[Schnee117]

Because they know people would be more interested in the Direct?

Good joke

That's a complete mischaracterization of the conversation and you know it.

Business as usual then

 

[Lamperouge]

We talking boobs for Smash?

Spoiler

 

[chocolatejr9]

Good joke



Business as usual then

I mean, you're right about me joking, but based on past precedant, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the Xbox presentation was just hardware specs. That would probably turn off a lot of people...

 

[Guynamednelson]

That's a complete mischaracterization of the conversation and you know it. Nobody actively wants 20 more Fire Emblem characters

It was meant to be an exaggeration of how FE fans handle any criticism of the way FE is represented in Smash.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Sure, on Monday when we get an ARMS style teaser:

"The fighter included in wave 7 of the paid Super Smash Bros. Ultimate DLC will be... a character with breasts."

Lesley would be proud.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean sure, but it was stupid to ask and was just unnecessary. It also seemed pretty sexist, by asking if we'd get a girl in Smash just because of tiddies. Like we're probably going to get Pyra/Mythra in the pass somehow (Presumably with Rex), so we would get a fighter with big boobs, but it wouldn't solely be because of the breasts that we're getting them.

It's just a stupid argument, and we should never bring this up again.

...You know that wasn't ever actually his argument, right? He said it could be an aspect that the director(whether of the game series or Sakurai alone) might look at to help influence the choice.

And then agreed it's not a good argument even then and dropped it, as well as apologized.

Read the conversation fully and not small snippets. You are vastly misrepresenting everything he said.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Spoiler: Persona 5

he still killed countless people in his pursuit of this goal, including Futaba's mom

Spoiler

While being controlled and used by, gasp, Shido. And clearly in 5R, Shido is Literaly the root of all the problems

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Except he WAS made of paper then. TTYD literally has you turn into a paper airplane and a rolled up paper tube for puzzles and whatnot. I don't know what this revisionism accomplishes.

Context matters here.

In TTYD the paper abilities were explicitly stated to be a supernatural occurrence because of a cursed placed on Mario himself. It's not something the paper characters are supposed to be able to do naturally

 

[Megadoomer]

I just saw this posted in the Geno thread, which seems like a good sign:

View attachment 279037
Zell just came out and said it's a general, so it's (probably) not a mini for the people worried. Zell stopped reporting on things unless he knows a 100% they're happening in the near future, and is probably one of the most trustworthy insiders out there in terms of track records.

I'm not sure what kind of a track record Zell/C. Tsubasa has, but it's still some good news. (unless a bunch of previously-reliable leakers turn out to be completely wrong and we don't wind up getting a Direct this week)

EDIT: Here's a link to the original post: https://www.resetera.com/threads/ni...n-with-the-wind.245581/page-278#post-40045851

 

[Opossum]

I just saw this posted in the Geno thread, which seems like a good sign:



I'm not sure what kind of a track record Zell/C. Tsubasa has, but it's still some good news. (unless a bunch of previously-reliable leakers turn out to be completely wrong and we don't wind up getting a Direct this week)

EDIT: Here's a link to the original post: https://www.resetera.com/threads/ni...n-with-the-wind.245581/page-278#post-40045851

He also bolded the M and S in "Mario games." Perhaps they're doing the direct on the same day as the Microsoft presentation?

 

[Speed Weed]

personally i don't really have this burning hatred for fire emblem or anything but i can't say i was too thrilled about byleth at the time of the reveal

to be frank i think the whole swordfighter thing is, in the nicest of terms, complete and utter hooplah. to me personally, it simply comes down to me not being big on fire emblem and wishing other first-parties got more love especially in the context of dlc, which is why i was really thankful for min min's inclusion

i think at this point the only way i'd be actually angry at fire emblem is if we somehow got another one in this very wave, which i find extremely unlikely

regardless, it's been six months and i'd much rather discuss future dlc than continue dwelling on this so this is probably my final two cents on the matter.

 

[Perkilator]

At this point, I’d even take a Mini Direct to stave off this drought. When’s this supposed investor’s meeting, again?

 

[RileyXY1]

He also bolded the M and S in "Mario games." Perhaps they're doing the direct on the same day as the Microsoft presentation?

As far as I know, this coming Thursday is a holiday in Japan.