Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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D

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I found this on 4chan, what do you guys think? lol
The Virgin vs Chad meme lost its original meaning of being a joke between doing an activity that was done in a relatively normal but a bit awkward way and the same activity in the most over the top way possible and now its done as a bait to have people reply to the image which is successful.
 
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Idon

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I found this on 4chan, what do you guys think? lol

I like a few picks from both sides, but really just seems like another run of the mill "your opinion bad, mine good." but using the virgin/chad formula.

(Come on 4chan, that's not even how the meme's supposed to be used)
 

N3ON

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I found this on 4chan, what do you guys think? lol




But with five on the right and zero on the left, I guess I'm 100% Chad.

Do I start lecturing others on gym etiquette? Do I have to start shotgunning beers even though no one asks me to? Should I be saying "bro" more? I'm new to this.
 

Guynamednelson

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But with five on the right and zero on the left, I guess I'm 100% Chad.

Do I start lecturing others on gym etiquette? Do I have to start shotgunning beers even though no one asks me to? Should I be saying "bro" more? I'm new to this.
You have to constantly flail your arms, tiptoe, have a beetle-like stride, and never hear a song in your life.
 

Vrbtm

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I found this on 4chan, what do you guys think?
For the most part, I agree with whoever made this, but Doomguy and Lara Croft being considered "chad" is pretty cringe.

M-rated characters really have no place in Smash, and letting Snake in was frankly a big mistake. He muddies speculation so badly because of the non-existent "precedent" people assume that he sets.
 

Idon

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He muddies speculation so badly because of the non-existent "precedent" people assume that he sets.
The precedent people presume he sets?

We've had Snake, Bayonetta, and Joker who all come from M-rated games. I'm pretty sure the precedent is set now.
 

Vrbtm

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The precedent people presume he sets?

We've had Snake, Bayonetta, and Joker who all come from M-rated games. I'm pretty sure the precedent is set now.
You're absolutely right, Grand Theft Auto is guaranteed for Smash now. Because precedents.
 

Idon

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You're absolutely right, Grand Theft Auto is guaranteed for Smash now. Because precedents.
Ah yes, attacking an argument I didn't make.

The precedent is that there are now M-rated characters, ergo being M-rated is not a restriction barring a character. Nothing more and nothing less. That is what a "precedent" is, not an indicator of things to come.
 
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AntagonisticGalaxyCetacea

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You're absolutely right, Grand Theft Auto is guaranteed for Smash now. Because precedents.
Nice job making your argument weaker than it already was.

The point is that being from a Mature game does not hinder a character's chances as much as the fandom LOVES to spout again and again.
 

Vrbtm

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The precedent is that there are now M-rated characters, ergo being M-rated is not a restriction barring a character.
Which is an asinine way to phrase it, because it makes it sound like ANY character from ANY M-rated game can make it in, simply by virtue of being from an M-rated game. It ignores the fact that some games really are strictly intended for adults, regardless of ESRB ratings, which are ultimately kinda stupid and arbitrary anyway.

It's not about the game's rating (which varies from country to country, by the way). It's about the actual content.

In spite of being from M-rated titles, Snake, Bayonetta, and Joker can reasonably be toned down in such a way that it doesn't affect how well they're able to represent their respective franchises. Snake being from an M-rated series doesn't mean he has to do M-rated things (his neck snap is a little extreme, though, and should've been removed). The extreme violence in Bayonetta's games doesn't necessarily represent the core of their appeal, so its lack of presence in Smash doesn't really take anything essential from her. Joker's game, Persona, is extremely tame, and it's a wonder why it's even rated M in the first place.

Characters like Master Chief and Doomguy, on the other hand, aren't the same. They can't be toned down, because you'd have to tone them down to such a degree that they wouldn't be themselves anymore, and nobody would be happy with that (unless you'll accept literally anything).

Doom is extremely violent. Too violent for Smash, in fact, and you can't argue that he's fair game because Smash already has M-rated characters in it, because ratings are arbitrary and the extremity of content will always vary from game to game. You can't say that the "mature" content of Doom is comparable to that of the "mature" content of Persona 5. Doom is so extreme that it cannot be reasonably mitigated like Bayonetta. That's why he's not happening.

The point is that being from a Mature game does not hinder a character's chances as much as the fandom LOVES to spout again and again.
Yes it does, and I thoroughly explained why above.

Nice job making your argument weaker than it already was.
Never happened.
 
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osby

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No, that's not the precedent. The precedent that people assume is set because of characters like Snake and Bayonetta is that Smash could justifiably have characters from games that are "more" M-rated, or are otherwise intended strictly for adults, which ignores the fact that the ESRB is kinda stupid and arbitrary.
Smash can have characters from M-rated franchises and did multiple times. Snake was followed by Bayonetta and she was followed by Joker. I don't think saying more can come is ignorant.

In spite of being from M-rated titles, Snake, Bayonetta, and Joker can reasonably be toned down in such a way that it doesn't affect how well they're able to represent their respective franchises. Snake being from an M-rated series doesn't mean he has to do M-rated things (his neck snap is a little extreme, though, and should've been removed). The extreme violence in Bayonetta's games doesn't necessarily represent the core of their appeal, so its lack of presence in Smash doesn't take from her essence. Joker's game, Persona, is extremely tame, and it's a wonder why it's even rated M in the first place.
Persona includes blood, partial nudity, strong language, violence, sexual themes and references drugs and sex. I wouldn't call it "extremely tame".

Also you just proved more characters from M-rated franchises can get into Smash if they can be reasonably toned down.

Characters like Master Chief and Doomguy, on the other hand, aren't the same. They can't be toned down, because you'd have to tone them down to such a degree that they wouldn't be themselves anymore, and nobody would be happy with that (unless you'll accept literally anything).
Nobody has to accept "literally anything" to have different standarts from you.

Doom is extremely violent. Too violent for Smash, in fact, and you can't argue that he's fair game because Smash already has M-rated characters in it, because ratings are arbitrary and the extremity of content will always vary from game to game. Doom, in particular, is too violent for Smash, and in a way that cannot be reasonably mitigated like Bayonetta. That's why he's not happening.
I don't see why it's so hard. Just remove the blood and mutilation and he does nothing :ultbayonetta::ultsnake::ultridley::ultcorrin: already don't.
 

Opossum

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Characters like Master Chief and Doomguy, on the other hand, aren't the same. They can't be toned down, because you'd have to tone them down to such a degree that they wouldn't be themselves anymore, and nobody would be happy with that (unless you'll accept literally anything).
Literally the only reason the Halo games are rated M is due to the blood spatter that happens when you shoot something. All of the Halo games with toned down blood spatter have gotten a T rating. And considering blood isn't carried over to Smash in the first place (as shown with Joker's Final Smash), there is literally nothing wrong with bringing in Master Chief. Bayonetta has far more excessive blood and gore than Halo does, and Bayonetta was still added.

It honestly seems pretty ignorant to think Master Chief is too violent to adapt to Smash. Gore is far from a major part of his character.
 

Vrbtm

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Smash can have characters from M-rated franchises and did multiple times. Snake was followed by Bayonetta and she was followed by Joker. I don't think saying more can come is ignorant.
Do you know how irritating it is when you respond like this? If you read my entire post before typing your response, you wouldn't have typed this part at all, which would've saved both mine and your own time.

Smash can have characters from M-rated franchises and did multiple times. Snake was followed by Bayonetta and she was followed by Joker. I don't think saying more can come is ignorant.
I would, especially when compared to the extremities of Doom. Not to mention, Persona 5 is only rated C in Japan, which means +15, or the equivalent of being somewhere in between T and M by the ESRB's standards. I'd call that tame.

Also you just proved more characters from M-rated franchises can get into Smash if they can be reasonably toned down.
You did it again.

Nobody has to accept "literally anything" to have different standarts from you.
You kinda do.

I don't see why it's so hard. Just remove the blood and mutilation and he does nothing :ultbayonetta::ultsnake::ultridley::ultcorrin: already don't.
I already explained why this argument is nonsensical. I don't know why you expect me to walk you through it again.
 

Vrbtm

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Literally the only reason the Halo games are rated M is due to the blood spatter that happens when you shoot something.
Nope. It's also because of its adult themes, elements of horror, and the intense militaristic action. The gun violence isn't as cartoonish and stylized as it is in Persona. It's realistic, and the first-person perspective is meant to immerse you and make you feel like you're on an actual killing spree.

All of the Halo games with toned down blood spatter have gotten a T rating.
Which is a joke. That should never have happened, unless they're toned down in other aspects as well.

Regardless, Halo has a long history of being M-rated, so it doesn't matter to me what they're rated these days.

And considering blood isn't carried over to Smash in the first place (as shown with Joker's Final Smash), there is literally nothing wrong with bringing in Master Chief.
Because of the reasons cited above, I would say that there is.

Bayonetta has far more excessive blood and gore than Halo does, and Bayonetta was still added.
Bayonetta's violence is over the top to the point where it can't be taken seriously. There's no realism. Halo has realism.
 
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Opossum

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Nope. It's also because its adult themes, elements of horror, and the intense militaristic action. The gun violence isn't as cartoonish and stylized as it is in Persona. It's realistic and takes place from a first-person perspective, which is meant to immerse you and make you feel like you're on an actual killing spree.


Which is a joke. That should never have happened.

Because of the reasons cited above, I would say that there is.

Bayonetta's violence is over the top to the point where it can't be taken seriously. There's no realism. Halo has realism.
Okay but basically everything you said there also applies to Metal Gear Solid.

Plus in Persona 5 Joker literally has to tear off his own face with the mask, blood very much included, to activate his Persona. Just a nice little detail Smash left out. That and later in the game he literally gets shot in the head and you watch him bleed out, eyes wide open. It's far from cartoonish and stylized.

Once again, there's literally no difference there. I don't think you really know what you're talking about, in all honesty.
 

Vrbtm

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Okay but basically everything you said there also applies to Metal Gear Solid.
Metal Gear doesn't take itself as seriously as Halo. That's the difference. You're also rewarded for not engaging in violence by virtue of it being a stealth game, whereas Halo rewards you for killing as many people as possible.

It's also not first-person, so you don't really get immersed in the same way. When you kill someone, it doesn't feel like you did it; it feels like Snake did, because you're not seeing the action from his strict point of view. This matters because it factors into the styles of gameplay that Nintendo is interested in endorsing.

And don't bring up Metroid Prime. Metroid Prime is basically an FPS, yes, but it's also very stylized and you don't kill any humans in it. You also don't use realistic weaponry, and the games have always been more about exploration than they have been about killing aliens anyway. I will concede that the Prime series contains some uncharacteristically graphic stuff for Nintendo standards, but it's still not quite on the level that it'd ever receive an M-rating.

I can't click on your Persona 5 spoiler, because I'd rather not be spoiled. The game isn't violent enough to make whatever point you're trying to make, though. Period.
 

osby

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You kinda do.
Not really. I wouldn't accept Doom Guy with :ultsamus:'s moveset, but I wouldn't mind if he doesn't have excessive bloodshed. Your opinions aren't objective just because you have a lower tolerance for artistic license.

I can't click on your Persona 5 spoiler, because I'd rather not be spoiled. The game isn't violent enough to make whatever point you're trying to make, though. Period.
If you didn't even play the game until the end, how do you know it's not violent enough?
 

Godzillathewonderdog

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Characters from M rated FPSs being ineligible, because their games try to make you feel like you’re an actual killer is quite the unique fan rule.
 

Wunderwaft

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Characters from M rated FPSs being ineligible, because their games try to make you feel like you’re an actual killer is quite the unique fan rule.
For a second I thought Jack Thompson returned to lecture us on the evil influence of violent video games on our minds.
 

HyruleHero

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just going to drop my 2 cents here about this M rating argument, bearing in mind I live in Australia and ratings may be different overseas (M=+15).
  • Nintendo has many game characters from M rated games in Smash already including first party.
    1. Zelda cast (starting with Twilight Princess and from then onward)
    2. Metroid cast (from Prime onward I believe)
    3. Snake (Metal Gear)
    4. Bayonetta
    5. Final Fantasy (some FF games are M rated including XII remake which has cloud in it)
  • Game characters from war/FPS games are perfectly viable candidates as Snake can also be classified under that genre
  • Due to Banjo and Kazooie being in smash I would not expect a Halo character to appear (unless as a Mii costume)
  • (For the FPS character) immersion as an argument isn't fair as in smash they are not played as 3rd person shooter characters but as platformers. Brawl showed, from Snakes final smash, that the 3rd person shooter thing was fine. Same with Zero Suit Samus' (or maybe it was normal Samus) final smash in ultimate.
  • Smash is happy to censor material from games and still leaves the character feeling like they are faithful to their source
i.e. Zelda (attacks don't draw blood), Metal Gear (no blood), Bayonetta (removed her main thing of her attacks causing her to strip).​

Bit long winded but I think it highlights key points well enough.
 

3BitSaurus

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I think in general characters from these games would be measured by how much they have to add to Smash rather than anything else. The reason I personally doubt a GTA rep isn't because of the games' rating, but because I don't really see a GTA character doing anything other characters couldn't.

With FPS characters (and also Resident Evil, technically speaking), we could have an ammo/supply mechanic for example, which I think no one has yet. I feel like that, along with their popularity, is one of the things that could make them more or less viable.

Plus, Sakurai likes to keep things faithful for third parties, but he's also taken a few creative liberties before.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Out of curiosity I looked up "Halo age rating", and found a forum post asking weather or not he should by a Halo game for his son because it's rated M and he also has a 4-year old who will try to watch. Every reply I looked at said "no" not because of it's violence, but because of how scary the Flood (and what I assume to be spoilery event) can be. I can't really say much more than that though since I've never actually played a Halo game.
just going to drop my 2 cents here about this M rating argument, bearing in mind I live in Australia and ratings may be different overseas (M=+15).
I think in America it's 18+, which may explain why The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is only rated T here (that and America seems to find violent media more acceptable than other countries).
  • Nintendo has many game characters from M rated games in Smash already including first party.
    1. Zelda cast (starting with Twilight Princess and from then onward)
Wait The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild is rated M in Australia?

The reason I personally doubt a GTA rep isn't because of the games' rating, but because I don't really see a GTA character doing anything other characters couldn't.
They could run people over with a ca-oh wait...
 
D

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Every
I found this on 4chan, what do you guys think? lol

Everything on the right is infinitely better than everything on the left, 100% agree, lol.

I got Banjo, and I liked K.Rool and Simon. I’d love more Rare characters. And I think the best final picks for the DLC are Doomguy and Ryu Hayabusa.

Now just add Mai Shiranui on the right, and Nakoruru and Kasumi on the left, and it’s perfect. Big ***** ninja babe is 100% a Chad pick.
 

UberPyro64

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Yeah, idk what the one guy is saying. Almost any video game character can make it into Smash at this point. There are exceptions, but for the most part, anyone is fair game.
 

blackghost

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Plus the original Dragon Quest 11 came out on July 29... so yeah. That's kind of where my expectation is at right now.
I can roll with that. its like how Nintendo released the character reveal trailers in the order they debuted.

Wait we are NOT having an M rated character debate on smash in 2019.

source games ratings like other fan-made rules are just that. there will be no blood in smash and characters that are violent are toned down while remaining faithful. this isnt a hard concept.
 
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GoodGrief741

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Metal Gear doesn't take itself as seriously as Halo. That's the difference. You're also rewarded for not engaging in violence by virtue of it being a stealth game, whereas Halo rewards you for killing as many people as possible.

It's also not first-person, so you don't really get immersed in the same way. When you kill someone, it doesn't feel like you did it; it feels like Snake did, because you're not seeing the action from his strict point of view. This matters because it factors into the styles of gameplay that Nintendo is interested in endorsing.

And don't bring up Metroid Prime. Metroid Prime is basically an FPS, yes, but it's also very stylized and you don't kill any humans in it. You also don't use realistic weaponry, and the games have always been more about exploration than they have been about killing aliens anyway. I will concede that the Prime series contains some uncharacteristically graphic stuff for Nintendo standards, but it's still not quite on the level that it'd ever receive an M-rating.

I can't click on your Persona 5 spoiler, because I'd rather not be spoiled. The game isn't violent enough to make whatever point you're trying to make, though. Period.
Sounds to me like you're complaining about the representation of series you don't play and don't care about, so I wonder what's the point.
 

tenworldsguy

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I can't see him getting in over Viridi, Hades, Phosphora (Despite being an assist unless they can be upgraded) and Medusa tbh.
Any one of those would be cool but in order of realistic placement in smash (assuming there's a KIU2 or something w all chars back)
1. Viridi (to finish off the Pit:palu::pitto:Viridi thing, serve as a villian)
2. Medusa (villian, Palutena semiclone or even echo)
3. Hades (villian, Ganon semi clone/echo)
4. Phosphora (no real argument but it would be dope to have a non Pokemon who focuses on electricity)
5. Magnus (same as Phosphora but not even as relevant)
Magnus does have a spirit. He's not like Porky at all.
wait what

looked it up and it turns out he do :(
 

Vrbtm

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Sounds to me like you're complaining about the representation of series you don't play and don't care about, so I wonder what's the point.
Because whether I've played or care about something has no bearing on whether I'm able to discuss or speculate about it.

I wouldn't accept Doom Guy with :ultsamus:'s moveset
That's basically what we'd get. And you WOULD accept it.

If you didn't even play the game until the end, how do you know it's not violent enough?
Intuition. I've seen basic gameplay, and basic gameplay isn't violent enough. Whatever violence there is looks very stylized and difficult to take seriously anyway.
 
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RandomAce

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just going to drop my 2 cents here about this M rating argument, bearing in mind I live in Australia and ratings may be different overseas (M=+15).
    1. Final Fantasy (some FF games are M rated including XII remake which has cloud in it)
Uhh... this game?
84E118E7-E074-4424-BE23-2450C19DA68B.jpeg
FF12 isn’t M rates and Cloud doesn’t appear anywhere in this game.

And from what I’m aware, none of the Final Fantasy are M-rated with the exception of a spin off, FF-Zero, and Cloud doesn’t appear in any of the other Final Fantasy games either except FF7 or crossover titles.
 
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Vrbtm

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  • Smash is happy to censor material from games and still leaves the character feeling like they are faithful to their source
My point is that this is utterly impossible to do with certain characters from certain franchises.

And yes, the Autralian rating system is wildly different from the one in the US, but my point in bringing them up in the first place is that they're arbitrary and meaningless. It's not the rating I'm worried about, it's the content of the game itself. Nintendo is aware of the advertising effect Smash characters have, and they're probably not going to want to promote games that go too far beyond what their core values are. They haven't done it yet, and the closest they've come is with Bayonetta.

Metal Gear and Persona are pretty tame, as far as "mature" games go, and are easy to tone down without damaging the faithfulness of the representation.

You simply can't do that as well with a character from an ultraviolent FPS. The ultraviolence is INTEGRAL to the series, and to remove it is to remove the essence of the character. Ultraviolence is not within the essence of Snake, Joker, and Bayonetta, so you can get away it toning them down.

  • Game characters from war/FPS games are perfectly viable candidates as Snake can also be classified under that genre
He can't, because Metal Gear isn't first person, rewards you for stealth rather than violence, and has a goofy sense of humor that undercuts the serious tone. The violence isn't the appeal of the games, whereas it is in games like Doom, Halo, and Grand Theft Auto. Those games take themselves a lot more seriously (GTA is meant to be funny a lot of the time, too, but a lot of it is strictly adult humor that not everybody is able to appreciate, and the game still heavily encourages the player to commit wanton murder, which is far beyond the kind of gameplay that Nintendo would want to support or promote).

3rd person shooter characters but as platformers. Brawl showed, from Snakes final smash, that the 3rd person shooter thing was fine.
My problem is with first person, not third person. First person makes it look like YOU are the one doing everything, whereas third person is basically you possessing someone else, which feels less personal as a result. Metal Gear doesn't prominently, feature any first person gameplay, as far as I know, and that's part of what makes it acceptable too.
 
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D

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Doomguy can work without brutal violence.

How do I feel confident about that? Because of Quake.
 

Vrbtm

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Doomguy can work without brutal violence.

How do I feel confident about that? Because of Quake.
Quake has no Smash representation either, so I don't know how you figure that matters.

It may not be brutally violent, but that's not the only criterion.
 
D

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Quake has no Smash representation either, so I don't know how you figure that matters.

It may not be brutally violent, but that's not the only criterion.
Quake shows that Doomguy can be Doomguy without the extreme violence.
 
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