Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Vrbtm]

Also, if having a Fighter Spirit means you're a separate character, then that means Builder Mario, Male Wii Fit Trainer, each individual Koopaling, Student Joker, Advent Children Cloud, Alph, Wario in overalls, Pikachu Libre, Crafted Yoshi, Meta Ridley, etc are all separate characters?

Nope, because they don't have a spot on the select screen.

The fact that you can stack them doesn't matter, because they have to be stacked in the first place.

 

[Kronch]

I did actually look into the popularity of Roy and Ike in Smash, and since I was discussing with someone else earlier how both characters had status as a meme, I decided to look at KnowYourMemes to see which character was more popular in that regard. Ike was clearly more popular than Roy, with his page having over 100,000 views and Roy's having around 30,000. That, alongside how popular Ike is as a Fire Emblem lord and my own experiences with lots of friends loving him in Brawl, changes my mind about which Fire Emblem characters are most important to keep in Smash. It probably goes Marth, Ike, and then Roy, in terms of the three most important to the game. I honestly think you could leave it right there and call that the Fire Emblem representation, but you could probably keep another one in as well to represent Awakening since it's so important in the franchise's history. I'm in favor of keeping Robin and dropping Chrom, Lucina, and Corrin in that case.

Four representatives for a popular Nintendo franchise seems right to me- it's what I think Donkey Kong and Kirby should also have. Fire Emblem isn't Mario or Pokemon, so it just doesn't need to have as many reps as them, especially in a hypothetical future game where they may start the roster from the ground up.

A friend of mine bring up the possibility of having a Pokemon Trainer-like Fire Emblem character in the future, with three of the characters from Three Houses in one slot and switchable at any point; maybe an archer, a swordfighter, and an ax-wielder. This sounds fine to me too, assuming Three Houses does well and is universally well-received like Awakening.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I firmly believe the investor meeting quote of wanting new demographics in Smash means that the last two will appeal to something like a casual, simulation, female, working adult, etc audience and a hardcore, edgy, possibly m-rated audience, respectively.

When I think of the first category I think of things like Phoenix Wright, Professor Layton, Style Savvy, Brain Age, Minecraft, Story of Seasons, Okami, Katamari Damacy, or even popular cross-demographic games like Undertale.

As for the second category, I think Resident Evil, Doom, No More Heroes, Tekken, King of Fighters, Nier Automata, Assassin's Creed, or even Astral Chain . Or if they really want to be crazy, James Bond.

To simplify it further I feel we'll get one "cute" character and one "cool" character.

Ah, earlier, I forgot to adress this point: we may not get much balance in terms of "cool/epic" characters and "cute/funny" ones for DLC. In Smash 4, most of the characters tended towards the "cool" side - even more so if you don't count the returning veterans.

So we could very well have Banjo be the only character of his kind and the last 2 DLC are also "cool" ones. So the Resident Evil and Tekken combination isn't that far-fetched.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

A friend of mine bring up the possibility of having a Pokemon Trainer-like Fire Emblem character in the future, with three of the characters from Three Houses in one slot and switchable at any point; maybe an archer, a swordfighter, and an ax-wielder. This sounds fine to me too, assuming Three Houses does well and is universally well-received like Awakening.

As long as you can play them as students and as adults, I'm down for that.

 

[Opossum]

I did actually look into the popularity of Roy and Ike in Smash, and since I was discussing with someone else earlier how both characters had status as a meme, I decided to look at KnowYourMemes to see which character was more popular in that regard. Ike was clearly more popular than Roy, with his page having over 100,000 views and Roy's having around 30,000. That, alongside how popular Ike is as a Fire Emblem lord and my own experiences with lots of friends loving him in Brawl, changes my mind about which Fire Emblem characters are most important to keep in Smash. It probably goes Marth, Ike, and then Roy, in terms of the three most important to the game. I honestly think you could leave it right there and call that the Fire Emblem representation, but you could probably keep another one in as well to represent Awakening since it's so important in the franchise's history. I'm in favor of keeping Robin and dropping Chrom, Lucina, and Corrin in that case.

Four representatives for a popular Nintendo franchise seems right to me- it's what I think Donkey Kong and Kirby should also have. Fire Emblem isn't Mario or Pokemon, so it just doesn't need to have as many reps as them, especially in a hypothetical future game where they may start the roster from the ground up.

A friend of mine bring up the possibility of having a Pokemon Trainer-like Fire Emblem character in the future, with three of the characters from Three Houses in one slot and switchable at any point; maybe an archer, a swordfighter, and an ax-wielder. This sounds fine to me too, assuming Three Houses does well and is universally well-received like Awakening.

The main issue with having Byleth command Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude as a Trainer-like trio is that that's not how it works in the actual game. On any given playthrough you side with one of the three houses, so you can't command all three. It's quite a bit different from Pokémon.

 

[3BitSaurus]

The main issue with having Byleth command Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude as a Trainer-like trio is that that's not how it works in the actual game. On any given playthrough you side with one of the three houses, so you can't command all three. It's quite a bit different from Pokémon.

Maybe some sort of allegiance mechanic? Like... depending on how you play, Byleth joins a certain House and gets his specials changed and stats buffed in a certain way until he loses a stock. Kinda like Limit or Arsene, but the buffs aren't that good in exchange for staying longer?

I think there is a point to be made about a "troop" mechanic for a FE character. I feel like this could really set one apart, because the only other first party series for which I think this kind of mechanic is possible is Advance Wars.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Every added character that you choose to carry over is an extra load on the development team and more money used.

And again, for like, their 2nd/3rd most popular franchise, why wouldn't you just spend that money?

There's a reason why Sakurai explicitly said "Because we're getting everyone, don't expect a lot of newcomers"

Except we're already getting at LEAST twelve newcomers. So that was complete BS.

If you cut Corrin and Roy from ever being added, I do think the response to Fire Emblem would be a lot less vitriolic (we'll never drop the 'too many sword fighters' thing)

I'd have cut Ike before Corrin because Corrin at least has interesting powers. Even though Ike is mechanically different from Marth, his moves are still just a bunch of sword attacks.

 

[Opossum]

Maybe some sort of allegiance mechanic? Like... depending on how you play, Byleth joins a certain House and gets his specials changed and stats buffed in a certain way until he loses a stock. Kinda like Limit or Arsene, but the buffs aren't that good in exchange for staying longer?

I think there is a point to be made about a "troop" mechanic for a FE character. I feel like this could really set one apart, because the only other first party series for which I think this kind of mechanic is possible is Advance Wars.

I've been a strong proponent of any of the four main Three Houses characters having an Authority mechanic if they got in. Battalions are the big new feature in the game, and Byleth, Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude, as the Lords, have high Authority stats. I plan on fully fleshing out my moveset idea once I get the game, but generally it's a reverse-Lucario-with-a-mix-of-Olimar type of idea, if that makes sense.

 

[Idon]

And again, for like, their 2nd/3rd most popular franchise, why wouldn't you just spend that money?

Because you have to 1. Fund other projects and not bank your entire company on a single game and 2. Make the game actually come out before the start of the 22nd century.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Because you have to 1. Fund other projects and not bank your entire company on a single game and 2. Make the game actually come out before the start of the 22nd century.

I think the idea that NINTENDO isn't able to do that regardless is ridiculous.

If Ubisoft can put out an Assassin's Creed game every year, Nintendo can put out a 2D fighting game once every 5 years without toppling the company.

The next Smash is going to upset a lot of people because it won't have the roster of Ultimate. It simply can't; what's being done here will never be done again.

Again, Nintendo absolutely CAN do it again, if they want to.

Telling you they can't is just a marketing tool so that if they DO do it again, you'll be surprised.

Just like Sakurai's "Don't expect many newcomers." And then there were many newcomers. Do you think Sakurai didn't know how many newcomers were going to be in the game? No. He just wanted you to be surprised.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

I think the idea that NINTENDO isn't able to do that regardless is ridiculous.

If Ubisoft can put out an Assassin's Creed game every year, Nintendo can put out a 2D fighting game once every 5 years without toppling the company.
Again, Nintendo absolutely CAN do it again, if they want to.

Telling you they can't is just a marketing tool so that if they DO do it again, you'll be surprised.

Just like Sakurai's "Don't expect many newcomers." And then there were many newcomers. Do you think Sakurai didn't know how many newcomers were going to be in the game? No. He just wanted you to be surprised.

Lets compare how many unique newcomers we got between the two games.

Brawl: 16

Smash 4: 13 (17 upon completion of DLC)

Ultimate: 6 (12 upon completion of confirmed DLC)

There is a clear reason why Sakurai said not to expect too many newcomers, because there were less newcomers this time around. If you want to add clones/echoes to the mix, Smash 4 has 15 base game and Ultimate has 10 basegame, still a significant drop in newcomer amount.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I've been a strong proponent of any of the four main Three Houses characters having an Authority mechanic if they got in. Battalions are the big new feature in the game, and Byleth, Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude, as the Lords, have high Authority stats. I plan on fully fleshing out my moveset idea once I get the game, but generally it's a reverse-Lucario-with-a-mix-of-Olimar type of idea, if that makes sense.

On a sidenote, I do think that there are characters meant to play more like their original incarnations and thus don't have a specific mechanic. But I'd like for more "passives" in Smash, if you know what I mean.

Maybe Doomguy could have some sort of ammunition mechanic or Phoenix Wright with Evidence like in UMvC3. I remember people at the Jill thread suggesting a kind of "survival boost" where she loses some weapon capabilities but becomes stronger as the match progresses. My personal pick would be KOF's MAX Mode for Kyo.

 

[Idon]

Guys, you realize a trio of FE characters is triple the amount of work done on exactly one character. If people weren't fine with easy clones, why would they be fine with a character that uses triple the amount of time and resources?

(And from a game that hasn't even released no less)

 

[krokotopia101]

Touhou is easily more popular than Cave Story, no arguments about it. It gets yearly conventions that are solely dedicated to the series and it's fan made content. In terms of legacy Touhou even outshines Cave Story. Touhou has been around longer than Cave Story for about 8 years, and during that time it helped shape up the modern doujin market that we know of today. The series was an inspiration for Undertale, Toby Fox said as much. The Touhou series was even inducted in the Guinness World Records for being the "most prolific fan made shooter series" back in 2010.

Isn't there like mass controversy with Touhou that would upset a widespread if Touhou was introduced in Smash, the same mass controversy and upset as having Waluigi finally being playable?

 

[Izanagi97]

Isn't there like mass controversy with Touhou that would upset a widespread if Touhou was introduced in Smash, the same mass controversy and upset as having Waluigi finally being playable?

First time I'm hearing of this

 

[krokotopia101]

First time I'm hearing of this

https://www.reddit.com/r/touhou/comments/9ua9qg/japan_doesnt_actually_want_touhou_in_smash_bros/ It's very inaccurate, so I myself don't personally know. VERY inaccurate. Looking at it it just seems like downright hate than any controversy.

 

[DarthEnderX]

There is a clear reason why Sakurai said not to expect too many newcomers, because there were less newcomers this time around.

12 is not that significant a drop from 16, is still more than most fighting games add in new game, and might not even be the final amount Ultimate gets.

 

[osby]

Guys, you realize a trio of FE characters is triple the amount of work done on exactly one character. If people weren't fine with easy clones, why would they be fine with a character that uses triple the amount of time and resources?

(And from a game that hasn't even released no less)

Because three fully developed unique characters somehow means less for Fire Emblem than three easy clones if they occupy one slot.

Don't expect Smash fandom to make sense when it comes to slots.

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

Isn't there like mass controversy with Touhou that would upset a widespread if Touhou was introduced in Smash, the same mass controversy and upset as having Waluigi finally being playable?

what do you mean a controversy, most people would respond with what who is that new character.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Nope, because they don't have a spot on the select screen.

The fact that you can stack them doesn't matter, because they have to be stacked in the first place.

Wait, first it's the select screen, then it's Fighter Spirits, now we're back to the select screen. Which is it?

You don't have to answer, I don't think I'll reply anymore as it's clear you're not interested in an actual debate.

 

[N3ON]

Lets compare how many unique newcomers we got between the two games.

Brawl: 16

Smash 4: 13 (17 upon completion of DLC)

Ultimate: 6 (12 upon completion of confirmed DLC)

There is a clear reason why Sakurai said not to expect too many newcomers, because there were less newcomers this time around. If you want to add clones/echoes to the mix, Smash 4 has 15 base game and Ultimate has 10 basegame, still a significant drop in newcomer amount.

Your point still stands, but calling semi-clones and other derivative additions "unique" is debatable.

 

[Dust319]

A weird thought crossed my mind. What would be the response if Smash bros divides up the cast in future installments, so you’d have say nothing but Fire Emblem characters dunking it out in Fire Emblem Smash or nothing but Pokémon in Pokémon Smash? Or maybe have two different fandoms duke it out like Mario vs Donkey Kong Smash?

 

[Idon]

Are we seriously using 2chan as a basis for Japanese popularity now? If you people don't take 4chan screenshots as a legitimate reflection of western popularity, why would you do with 2chan and eastern popularity?

I imagine the people that make these types of posts aren't the ones that have made countless amounts of fan works and and run the multi-yearly conventions.

 

[GoodGrief741]

A weird thought crossed my mind. What would be the response if Smash bros divides up the cast in future installments, so you’d have say nothing but Fire Emblem characters dunking it out in Fire Emblem Smash or nothing but Pokémon in Pokémon Smash? Or maybe have two different fandoms duke it out like Mario vs Donkey Kong Smash?

That's an immediate non-buy from me. The selling point of Smash is the crossover aspect.

 

[Vrbtm]

Wait, first it's the select screen, then it's Fighter Spirits, now we're back to the select screen. Which is it?

All of them. Anything I can use to argue that they're separate characters, I'm obviously going to use it.

 

[TheYungLink]

Are we seriously using 2chan as a basis for Japanese popularity now? If you people don't take 4chan screenshots as a legitimate reflection of western popularity, why would you do with 2chan and eastern popularity?

I imagine the people that make these types of posts aren't the ones that have made countless amounts of fan works and and run the multi-yearly conventions.

This is also why I'm leery of anyone that uses 2chan posts as "evidence" that Mother 3 isn't very well-liked in Japan compared to EarthBound / Mother 2. I wouldn't be surprised if Japan did prefer Mother 2 because of how unique it was compared to lots of other games at the time, but 2chan, like 4chan, is a place of unrestrained negativity and shouldn't be used as a basis for popularity.

When Source Gaming did their poll on which characters Japan wanted as Smash 4 DLC after Mewtwo was announced, the number 1 most wanted character was Lucas. Not a newcomer, or even a more popular veteran like Snake, Wolf, or Roy, but Lucas. Given how mediocre of a character they were in Brawl, I highly doubt it was because of their competitive viability or their moveset, and more that Japan really did like Mother 3 quite a bit.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

12 is not that significant a drop from 16, is still more than most fighting games add in new game, and might not even be the final amount Ultimate gets.

We will have 12 newcomers in ultimate, but only until smash dlc concludes in February of 2020, over a year after smash ultimate was finished. When Sakurai said not expect many newcomers at e3 2018, we only got 6 for base game, much less than Brawl or Smash 4 had at base.

Sakurai is not trying to be a charlatan or a trickster to hype up future smash games, he said we would have fewer newcomers this time and we had fewer newcomers this time around.

 

[3BitSaurus]

A weird thought crossed my mind. What would be the response if Smash bros divides up the cast in future installments, so you’d have say nothing but Fire Emblem characters dunking it out in Fire Emblem Smash or nothing but Pokémon in Pokémon Smash? Or maybe have two different fandoms duke it out like Mario vs Donkey Kong Smash?

While I do think certain Nintendo franchises have the potential for fighting game spinoffs of their own (God, imagine an F-Zero fighting game that actually justifies Falcon's moves...), when it comes to Smash, the biggest appeal is the fact that it's a crossover. Especially now that we have third parties and it's become the biggest gaming crossover ever made.

Making a game with only one franchise... wouldn't really be Smash imo.

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

We will have 12 newcomers in ultimate, but only until smash dlc concludes in February of 2020, over a year after smash ultimate was finished. When Sakurai said not expect many newcomers at e3 2018, we only got 6 for base game, much less than Brawl or Smash 4 had at base.

Sakurai is not trying to be a charlatan or a trickster to hype up future smash games, he said we would have fewer newcomers this time and we had fewer newcomers this time around.

you are pretty much right on that fewer newcomers topic.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

A weird thought crossed my mind. What would be the response if Smash bros divides up the cast in future installments, so you’d have say nothing but Fire Emblem characters dunking it out in Fire Emblem Smash or nothing but Pokémon in Pokémon Smash? Or maybe have two different fandoms duke it out like Mario vs Donkey Kong Smash?

They already made that, it's called Kirby Fighters Deluxe. Everyone is here! Kirby, Kirby, Kirby, Kirby, Kirby, Kirby, Kirby, Kirby, Kirby, Kirby, Kirby and Kirby.

 

[Zem-raj]

So according to this, Hero is releasing this month (July).

 

[Flyboy]

So according to this, Hero is releasing this month (July).

I swear to God if this means Lupin III leak is real I'll flip my ****.

 

[Vrbtm]

Because three fully developed unique characters somehow means less for Fire Emblem than three easy clones if they occupy one slot.

The point is that it would be an acceptable compromise (not that I agree).

 

[Guybrush20X6]

So according to this, Hero is releasing this month (July).

So now it's a matter of waiting up to two more weeks and wondering what else will be in the patch.

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

So according to this, Hero is releasing this month (July).

so basically Nintendo confirms that hero will be released this month .

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I swear to God if this means Lupin III leak is real I'll flip my ****.

The 3 Midgar songs part is the most suspect to me.
Yes, even more than the date.

 

[kylexv]

Ultimate Patches usually come out at 5 (2.0) or 6 (3.0 and 3.1) PM PST.
I don't think the patch will drop 10AM, but that's just me

 

[Polan]

I swear to God if this means Lupin III leak is real I'll flip my ****.

mii costume theory is going out in flames if this is real

The 3 Midgar songs part is the most suspect to me.
Yes, even more than the date.

eh don't really put it past sakurai to nab some extra ff7 songs while negotiating for dq.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I swear to God if this means Lupin III leak is real I'll flip my ****.

Not going to jump the gun, because textleaks should always be taken with a grain of salt, but in the event that it does turn out true, Namco would get all 3 costumes back, making Costume Theory useless and reducing their chances for a new character. Or, in other words, it would mean at least one of the two remaining characters are from a company new to Smash.

Why is this coming up now, though? Did this person leak anything else or is it just a random person... again?

The 3 Midgar songs part is the most suspect to me.
Yes, even more than the date.

Yeah, music-only DLC for a third-party would be weird, especially coming from Square. Doesn't sound too likely.

Either way, this leak sinks or swims tomorrow, so it's not like we need to wait to check its validity.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I missed these short lived leaks that are either true or debunked in a couple of days. Gives us something to chat about.