Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Cosmic77]

>barely a week after Min Min

Tbf the character could release much later like when they revealed Hero and Banjo at last year’s E3

I meant it would seem really strange to have a Smash presentation on June 22nd, release a character on the 29th, and then reveal another character on July 7th.

Would've made more sense to reveal the character alongside Min Min if F7 were that close to being revealed.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

If we are still talking about Geno, I must say something...

Has there ever been evidence and/or proof that Sakurai wanted him in or any official word from that he wanted Geno in back in the Brawl days? The other day, I looked things up and there was a lack of evidence on that matter. I might have not searched well enough, but still, all I could find were rumors. Plus, Sakurai may have wanted to add him in Smash 4, but keep in mind that Brawl and Smash 4 were in the past, so either way, Sakurai's interest for Geno may have dwindled, even if by a little, since then, and he may not have the same amount of interest as he did back then, such as when he did not include Geno as a fighter in Smash Bros. Ultimate, but as a spirit, and that he included Hero from Dragon Quest over Geno. Granted, Hero from Dragon Quest may have had to get in first, but you should know what I mean.

Here you go: https://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/21/nintendodream3/

—What led you to decide to make a Geno costume after all this time?

Sakurai: To tell the truth, it’s because I wanted Geno to be a playable character. He has a gun for a hand, and I think he fits in really well with Smash. During Brawl, I thought it would be great if I could add him, but in the end it didn’t become a reality.

—Because of that, you added him as a Mii Costume this time?

Sakurai: That’s right. He’s very popular. When talking about older characters, Geno always gets a lot of requests. He didn’t appear as a fighter, but I was able to achieve something kind of close to that as a Mii Costume.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I wonder, what did Sakurai say about Lloyd’s Mii costume?

 

[Perkilator]

Guess i do this tired joke again

Broke: July 7th Neku is revealed

Joke: July 7th Master Chief is revealed

Woke: July 7th Grand Dad is revealed
View attachment 276259

Bespoke: Sora is revealed with the 7 Guardians of Light making cameos on his stage.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I think Geno deserves to be in on the basis of consistently being requested for decades now. Sure you could give him a nod again but this time as a premium Mii costume but where’s the fun in that? Just give him the full playability already, Forest Mushroom stage, two tracks and a Spirit Board with Smithy or something. I think it’s time. I don’t care.

 

[SharkLord]

All this talk about the 7th, and nothing about this guy...

Spoiler

 

[SKX31]

holy **** yes i have wanted 7 since melee

Wait...

Fox was:

* High tier in 64 (4th)
* Top tier in Melee (1st)
* Mid tier in Brawl (15th)
* High tier in 4 (T-7th)
* High / Top tier in Ultimate

Does this mean we're getting or ? (It wouldn't be the Ultimate Smash game without Melee Fox IMHO. Complete with frame 1 Reflectors and toRYA!)

Spoiler

Serperior!

NGL, would be intrigued by seeing Chesnaught, just to see how it plays.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Bespoke: Sora is revealed with the 7 Guardians of Light making cameos on his stage.

Masterstroke: Seven. From Xenoblade.

In other words;

 

[CannonStreak]

Here you go: https://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/21/nintendodream3/

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Still, my point kinda stands. If Sakurai still had the interest in making Geno a playable character in Smash Ultimate, or if by any other reason, he could have added him in as a fighter and not a spirit. Plus, I still feel Sakurai did not say much about Geno back then in Brawl's days. Either way, I feel people kinda exaggerated his wanting Geno in Brawl, even though it was true, and made it so not only they were sure Geno would get in Brawl, but that they made his chances seem actually higher than they truly were, you know what I mean?

 

[AceAttorney9000]

I meant it would seem really strange to have a Smash presentation on June 22nd, release a character on the 29th, and then reveal another character on July 7th.

Would've made more sense to reveal the character alongside Min Min if F7 were that close to being revealed.

Considering that there's been a long gap between Byleth and Min Min, and the developers are likely still working on the upcoming characters instead of just sitting around doing nothing... makes sense to me.

I don't disagree that having a double reveal would make more sense than just separating them by a week, but Min Min was specifically revealed in a presentation, and apparently they like keeping those focused on one single character (yes, Banjo's presentation had that bit with Terry, but Terry was already revealed right before then in a Direct).

 

[CosmicQuark]

7 being lucky is very culturally dependent, and while I think Japan shares 7 as a lucky number with the West, I think we should also be careful about using culturally dependent symbols when it comes to speculation.

As for why Microsoft picked Banjo & Kazooie—they didn’t, and neither did Sakurai. Nintendo did, and I’m surprised and ecstatic they did. 6-11 are my lucky numbers.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I wonder, what did Sakurai say about Lloyd’s Mii costume?

He said Lloyd was the only candidate for Tales, whether that's still his stance or not is unknown as Smash has been breaking the 'Nintendo relevance' rule for third parties more and more and if Sakurai is adamant on it, it got a new contender in the name of Yuri "I'm banned in popularity polls" Lowell

 

[SharkLord]

I meant it would seem really strange to have a Smash presentation on June 22nd, release a character on the 29th, and then reveal another character on July 7th.

Would've made more sense to reveal the character alongside Min Min if F7 were that close to being revealed.

On one hand, yes, it wouldn't make sense to split up the reveal like that.
On the other has, Pokemon had Unite announced separately, even though it could easily be revealed alongside everything else (Though given it's tepid reception, maybe it's good that it was isolated).

 

[Evil Trapezium]

If Sakurai still had the interest in making Geno a playable character in Smash Ultimate, or if by any other reason, he could have added him in as a fighter and not a spirit.

Well Cloud was an issue since he was the last veteran to be added to Ultimate and then Hero took a DLC slot so there probably wasn't a lot of room for Geno to be playable at the time.

 

[CannonStreak]

Well Cloud was an issue since he was the last veteran to be added to Ultimate and then Hero took a DLC slot so there probably wasn't a lot of room for Geno to be playable at the time.

Oh, that. Though I did say Dragon Quest probably did have to come first, so there is that.

Well, there is no lack of room now, it seems. But I can see Square being stingy for future Smash games like how it lead Cloud to be the last veteran to be added, and that may cause problems for Geno then. I still don't think Nintendo, who chose the DLC, would choose someone not so profitable like Geno for this pack. If it was Sakurai who chose the DLC, then just, maybe. By the way, what about my other things I said?

 

[Aetheri]

FYI, 77 is my favourite number...therefore it has to be one of my favourite characters!

MIDNA CONFIRMED GUYS!!!

 

[Rie Sonomura]

https://www.nintendo.com/consumer/network/en_na/network_status.jsp

Min Min and the new Mii Costumes will drop around 9 PM EST this coming Monday... it's usually at nighttime anyway

 

[Droodle]

The real Seven.

 

[Perkilator]

FYI, 77 is my favourite number...therefore it has to be one of my favourite characters!

MIDNA CONFIRMED GUYS!!!

I misread that as Moana for a second.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

The one thing that is of some credit to Geno's chances is the fact that Sakurai has gone on record stating that he very much so wanted to add Geno to Brawl but it didn't work out. Fast forward to SM4SH, and Geno is understandably missing while Square's biggest character in Cloud gets in. But Geno makes the unprecendented jump to a Mii Costume, and is the only Mii Costume in both SM4SH and Ultimate to get it's own splash screen. Geno then makes the jump into Ultimate with a spirit, and despite all the returning costumes slowly making reappearances with the DLC and being in a perfect position to come with Hero but so far being nowhere to be found for 6 DLC costume waves now.

Whether you like Geno or think he's likely, Sakurai has shown himself to be a big fan of the character and, again, has tried to add him to Smash in the past, which sets him apart from characters like Ridley, Villager and Chrom, all of whom he had negative things to say about in the past regarding their chances. There is none of that for Geno, so even if the coincidences surrounding the notable absence of his mii costume aren't indicative enough that something is up, I at least hope people understand why the people that support Geno in Smash have hope for his chances in FP2.

And I say all this as someone who has never played SMRPG and doesn't have the same emotional connection to the character as others do. I just like Geno's design and the possibilities for his moveset and can see the potential for what he could be.

But the irrelevancy argument for Geno means little when fan demand for Ridley, K. Tool and Banjo got all of them into Ultimate. If Geno gets into Smash, it’ll be because of the Sakurai’s desire for him, boosted by the same long-standing fan demand Geno has had in the Smash community. If he wants it to happen, he’ll make it happen, and if it doesn’t, then that’s that.

Sakurai's input here would matter more if he was choosing actual DLC fighters, but Nintendo is doing it this time around. Sakurai can beg and beg and beg all day long, and Nintendo is still the arbiter over that decision. And worse yet, Geno doesn't have a vocal representative at Square Enix making the process easier. K. Rool and Banjo & Kazooie managed to beat irrelevancy through fan demand, but they are largely the exceptions to the rule and they both had more going in their favor. King K. Rool was already owned by Nintendo and Microsoft practically came ready to negotiate Banjo & Kazooie in Smash as their early partnership bloomed. Square Enix gains nothing from Geno being more or less popular, so they're not going to be coming to the table with the same excitement that Spencer showed up with.

Square Enix isn't some bad guy determined to squash dreams, but they are a business first and foremost, just like Nintendo. That's where this gets complicated for Geno. He has to convince two largely unconvinced parties to support him. Nintendo has to decide that the Geno fandom is specifically the one they want to give the green light to and then Square Enix has to decide they're OK with him being a playable fighter and representing their brand. Sakurai's only say in the matter would be a veto he has seemingly never used, so hoping Sakurai is the golden goose for Geno right now seems a little out of place when he just doesn't control any of the broad strokes for pass decisions.

 

[CannonStreak]

Another thing I would like to point out about Geno is accessibility to the one game he was in, not counting his cameo in the original Mario and Luigi; Superstar Saga game. I mean, there is likely going to be a lot of people who don't know who Geno is, and with that, they would have to play his game to find out more, the only game he really appeared in. Now, the SNES is probably hard to find, the SNES Mini can only do so much. The Wii Shop channel where that game was is closed, so there is not too much accessibility, and even if people brought the SNES Mini, they may not be interested in playing the game, Super Mario RPG that is on there. So unless there is a rerelease or maybe better yet, a remake, not many people are going to know Geno well. Youtube showing him off can only do so much, since playing the game can be another story. The game was rereleased a small amount of times. That won't do any favors for Geno.

 

[ZelDan]

I guess if we're continuing with "seven" jokes, there is another popularish Smash request who just got a game with "seven" in their subtitle...

In all seriousness though I highly doubt Nintendo will have a Smash reveal lined up for July 7th, and I don't think they've ever done anything cheeky like that, atleast not in this specific manner.

 

[CannonStreak]

I guess if we're continuing with "seven" jokes, there is another popularish Smash request who had a game with "seven" in their subtitle...

-snip-

In all seriousness though I highly doubt Nintendo will have a Smash reveal lined up for July 7th, and I don't think they've ever done anything cheeky like that, atleast not in this specific manner.

It's even more highly unlikely for some kind of Direct, as some people said, but we'll just wait and see.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Obviously we're getting Pokemon #7, which is..

*Checks Serebii*

...Squirtle. Squirtle Squad rise up!

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

To be honest this July 7th reveal seems to only be getting attention because it’s another Smash reveal and because it’s a situation that people WANT to believe in.

Come on...we all know the likelihood of this happening is astronomically low.

 

[cosmicB]

This has probably been discussed at length since the Min Min reveal, but just in case it hasn't...

The very specific mention of spirit events changing when DLC costumes/characters are purchased seems suspicious. The fact that he even states that we should expect more of these kind of things to happening in the future all but confirms that we will be receiving more "upgraded" spirits.

I'm calling it: Geno is in.

That specific portion of the presentation was in the context of Mii costumes updating spirit battles, not actual characters.

We still have no idea if Min Min's Corrin battle will switch to Min Min. If it doesn't, I would assume full characters will not affect spirit battle in any way, which ngl I would assume is REALLY bad for Geno since a costume of his exists and could come back to upgrade the spirit battle.

 

[Lamperouge]

Masterstroke: Seven. From Xenoblade.

In other words;

View attachment 276266

I'd give everything for this.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Obviously we're getting Pokemon #7, which is..

*Checks Serebii*

...Squirtle. Squirtle Squad rise up!

Never thought I'd see the day where i'd use this but okay.

 

[Yoyomom]

Time to reevaluate my most wanted characters.


Waluigi: I genuinely want Waluigi, but Sakurai hates assist trophies.
Toad: I only wanted Toad for completion reasons.
Slippy Toad: Any Starfox character will do at this point.
Mona (Warioware): Sakurai wouldn't even give her a 3D model.
Zero: I didn't want another Smash bros with more Sonic reps than Mega Man reps.
Shantae: I only wanted her because we have Bayonetta.
Jin Kazama: I only wanted him because we got Mega Man, Pac-Man, and Ryu.
Dante: I wanted him because A) we got a Metal gear rep and I wanted a Tekken rep, and B) I wanted Akira Yuki and I don't want too many Sega IPs.
Akira Yuki: I only wanted him because we got Ryu and I wanted Jin.
Springman: It's too late for Springman.

Maybe next iteration (if there is a next iteration).

 

[cosmicB]

We've already seen similar situations where that wound up not being the case. If someone was looking at Microsoft with that mindset, then it would be assumed that Banjo and Kazooie would never be added because they're quite obscure compared to juggernaut franchises like Halo or Minecraft, and Microsoft hasn't used them in well over a decade aside from the occasional re-release. Regardless, as of now, the only Microsoft content in Smash Bros. is from Banjo-Kazooie, and that's largely due to consistent fan demand.

I think using Banjo as a "therefore, Geno" argument is a bit misguided.

MS has only one franchise with any shared legacy with Nintendo, and that's B&K. Fan demand most likely helped, but I can't imagine they would get in if that was all it was. If this was just any other third party, I might agree with that line of reasoning, but we're talking about a platform-holder and direct competitor. Legacy is more important than relevancy in this case because we're literally talking about what was at one point a pseudo-first party franchise.

Geno is also in that weird place of pseduo-first party-ness, but if shared legacy with Nintendo is actually relevant here, then he's far from alone on the Square side. Several Final Fantasy games, TWEWY, more recent stuff like Bravely and Octopath, and that's all just off the top of my head.

Once again, this doesn't mean Geno CAN'T get in, but they're completely different situations, and I already explained my reasoning on the three big rules that Geno would have to break which no other character has including all the fan requests that have gotten in.

 

[CannonStreak]

I think using Banjo as a "therefore, Geno" argument is a bit misguided.

MS has only one franchise with any shared legacy with Nintendo, and that's B&K. Fan demand most likely helped, but I can't imagine they would get in if that was all it was. If this was just any other third party, I might agree with that line of reasoning, but we're talking about a platform-holder and direct competitor. Legacy is more important than relevancy in this case because we're literally talking about what was at one point a pseudo-first party franchise.

Geno is also in that weird place of pseduo-first party-ness, but if shared legacy with Nintendo is actually relevant here, then he's far from alone on the Square side. Several Final Fantasy games, TWEWY, more recent stuff like Bravely and Octopath, and that's all just off the top of my head.

Once again, this doesn't mean Geno CAN'T get in, but they're completely different situations, and I already explained my reasoning on the three big rules that Geno would have to break which no other character has including all the fan requests that have gotten in.

Since we are still talking Geno, I have made a list of things in his favor, why he is not in, and what go against him being included. Here they are.

Reasons why he may get in.

-High fan demand

-Sakurai likes him and wants him in

-Good gameplay potential

-Square no longer being stingy with their characters.

-Spirits do not deconfirm

Reasons why he as not in yet.

-Cloud was the last veteran to get into Ultimate

-Hero was decided to be DLC first

Reasons against him getting in.

-Irrelavancy, has not appeared in a game for along time, not counting the cameo in the original Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga

-Was a supporting character, compared to Banjo-Kazooie and K. Rool, who were main characters and had a bigger legacy.

-Was in one game,

-While the one game he was in was fondly remembered, he was just one part that made it good.

-Not many people outside his fanbase may know who Geno is.

-Accessibility to his games is limited as the rereleases are few in number

-May not be profitable

-Nintendo is choosing the DLC characters, not Sakurai, and thus they may have little interest in him.

-Came from a spinoff and not one game

-He is owned by a different company

-Nintendo might stilll be stingy about letting him in Smash Bros. Ultimate

-Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars is obscure, and Geno, by extension, is probably even more obscure.

-Heihachi was also wanted by Sakurai, but Heihachi was added in as a Mii Costume, which could apply to Geno.

-There are other Square characters, let along characters from other companies that could get in before Geno.

Anything I missed? Let me know. Still, the things that go against Geno seem to outweigh the things in his favor. What do you all think?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Please, enough of the bad 7 memes (Except you Droodle I love Zero Escape). Fighter 7 has to be someone iconic. Someone huge. Someone who has not only influenced gaming, but fiction as a whole, including having influenced ****ing Evangelion. It's not just 7. It's not a Super 7. It's...

 

[cosmicB]

so why stop now when there's still only one long-awaited fan favorite that's been requested for literally years at this point?

Except there's not.

Lloyd, Isaac, Lip, Ashley, Takamaru, and that's only among the non-crazy massive AAA franchises. Geno isn't special beyond having a really big thread on a niche game-specific forum (a thread that some flat out see as a pariah I might add).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Since we are still talking Geno, I have made a list of things in his favor, why he is not in, and what go against him being included. Here they are.

Reasons why he may get in.

-High fan demand

-Sakurai likes him and wants him in

-Good gameplay potential

-Square no longer being stingy with their characters.

-Spirits do not deconfirm

Reasons why he as not in yet.

-Cloud was the last veteran to get into Ultimate

-Hero was decided to be DLC first

Reasons against him getting in.

-Irrelavancy, has not appeared in a game for along time, not counting the cameo in the original Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga

-Was a supporting character, compared to Banjo-Kazooie and K. Rool, who were main characters and had a bigger legacy.

-Was in one game,

-While the one game he was in was fondly remembered, he was just one part that made it good.

-Not many people outside his fanbase may know who Geno is.

-Accessibility to his games is limited as the rereleases are few in number

-May not be profitable

-Nintendo is choosing the DLC characters, not Sakurai, and thus they may have little interest in him.

-Came from a spinoff and not one game

-He is owned by a different company

-Square might stilll be stingy about letting him in Smash Bros. Ultimate

-Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars is obscure, and Geno, by extension, is probably even more obscure.

Anything I missed? Let me know. Still, the things that go against Geno seem to outweigh the things in his favor. What do you all think?

Here's what you missed.

Square was never stingy, Nintendo were the stingy ones about Cloud as seen with their anti-union history and stuff.

Heihachi, a significantly larger character, had a similar situation to Geno, Sakurai really wanted them but was unable to but settled for a Mii costume. Heihachi returning as a Mii costume doesn't fair well for Geno as it means he may very well just be a costume again, which is ESPECIALLY true with the statement that some Spirits may be changed if you have Mii costumes, which unlike Heihachi, can apply to Geno

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Here's what you missed.

Square was never stingy, Nintendo were the stingy ones about Cloud as seen with their anti-union history and stuff.

Heihachi, a significantly larger character, had a similar situation to Geno, Sakurai really wanted them but was unable to but settled for a Mii costume. Heihachi returning as a Mii costume doesn't fair well for Geno as it means he may very well just be a costume again, which is ESPECIALLY true with the statement that some Spirits may be changed if you have Mii costumes, which unlike Heihachi, can apply to Geno

To be fair, they could give us a Tekken Spirit Event with a Heihachi Spirit that replaces whichever fighter originally representing him with his costume if you own it

 

[SharkLord]

Please, enough of the bad 7 memes (Except you Droodle I love Zero Escape). Fighter 7 has to be someone iconic. Someone huge. Someone who has not only influenced gaming, but fiction as a whole, including having influenced ****ing Evangelion. It's not just 7. It's not a Super 7. It's...

I just mentioned him

 

[CannonStreak]

Here's what you missed.

Square was never stingy, Nintendo were the stingy ones about Cloud as seen with their anti-union history and stuff.

Heihachi, a significantly larger character, had a similar situation to Geno, Sakurai really wanted them but was unable to but settled for a Mii costume. Heihachi returning as a Mii costume doesn't fair well for Geno as it means he may very well just be a costume again, which is ESPECIALLY true with the statement that some Spirits may be changed if you have Mii costumes, which unlike Heihachi, can apply to Geno

Added. Man, Nintendo was against Cloud over a voice actor who was in a union and maybe some other things? Whatever the case, wow.

 

[Cosmic77]

I already said this yesterday, but for me personally, I'd prefer to see an upgraded Geno Mii costume that's bundled with "Beware the Forest Mushrooms".

The Mii Gunner moveset suits Geno, and if you combine that with an actual Geno model instead of a Mii with a face that resembles Geno's, it'd probably be close to playing as the real thing.

 

[cosmicB]

Here you go: https://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/21/nintendodream3/

My interpretation of this was always that mii gunner specifically erased the need for Geno because he could get "kind of close" with his envisioned moveset. That was not a factor in Brawl because, well, mii fighters didn't exist.

I obviously could be wrong here, but that's just how I always took it. There's been a trend among the DLC in introducing unique playstyles and Sakurai might not really see the potential in Geno that couldn't be covered by the standard zoning tools that is Mii gunner.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Added. Man, Nintendo was against Cloud over a voice actor who was in a union and maybe some other things? Whatever the case, wow.

That's not the case, Nintendo didn't want to pay for Nomura and Uematsu's royalties while also paying Steve Burton which is why FF is so lacking in everything. Nintendo, and Smash itself really, has an anti-union history

I just mentioned him

I did not see it for you were a cowaed who hid the good boy