Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Hokori]

Maybe not for Geno but for a character as popular as Waluigi? And perhaps Isaac? Ooo baby.

Gimme Isaac. Please & thank you.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I personaly think they do because all fighters get a fighters spirit and, from what I know, they arent added in as normal spirits before hand

but thats just what I think and I still think just because one Spirit or AT was promoted, doesnt mean "Oh, I guess -insert spirit/AT here- is likely now"

The people who want Spring Man because he's an AT don't want him because he guarantees other ATs or Spirits, they want him because that'll make people with the same beliefs at you stop shutting down discussion about those characters.

Personally I expect all the people who said "ATs/Spirits disconfirm" to just shift to "Spring Man was clearly a special occasion and none of the others are getting in". It's pretty much already happening.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Is it too much to say that this thread has a bit of a cultural problem?

 

[SneakyLink]

Is it too much to say that this thread has a bit of a cultural problem?

Gonna be honest, I’m not sure what you mean by this thought.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Gonna be honest, I’m not sure what you mean by this thought.

We like to dog pile a lot and I know many of the users here try to be objective about things but we can be way too confrontational and rude when we do it.

Thing is, I'm not sure how to fix the issue exactly.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

We like to dog pile a lot and I know many of the users here try to be objective about things but we can be way too confrontational and rude when we do it.

Thing is, I'm not sure how to fix the issue exactly.

At this point I'd call it more of a deep ingrained structural problem then a simple cultural one.

This has been a thing going back as far as I can remember. I can even imagine some examples from the times of Sm4sh speculation, which I barely even remember.

Mob attacks on users, mental gymnastics to "rationally" prove subjective opinions, immediate escalation of arguments, and the like are the norm rather than the exception. It's why I don't come here often anymore, and I know it's the same for a good amount of former users.

As to how to fix it, I don't think there's a way to do so, unless everyone can just learn to respect each other's opinions, realize that their own opinion isn't factually correct, and that it's okay to be wrong so long as you make an effort to learn. Change like this doesn't happen overnight, and, depending on how cynical you are, might not happen at all.

Unfortunately, I have a creeping feeling that some would think that adopting such beliefs in speculation is too much effort for what it's worth. So, they're content to stick to their guns and perpetuate such issues.

uuuuuhhhhh i mean funny lowercase post i dont know what youre talking about look no apostrophes haha

 

[Swamp Sensei]

At this point I'd call it more of a deep ingrained structural problem then a simple cultural one.

This has been a thing going back as far as I can remember. I can even imagine some examples from the times of Sm4sh speculation, which I barely even remember.

Mob attacks on users, mental gymnastics to "rationally" prove subjective opinions, immediate escalation of arguments, and the like are the norm rather than the exception. It's why I don't come here often anymore, and I know it's the same for a good amount of former users.

As to how to fix it, I don't think there's a way to do so, unless everyone can just learn to respect each other's opinions, realize that their own opinion isn't factually correct, and that it's okay to be wrong so long as you make an effort to learn. Change like this doesn't happen overnight, and, depending on how cynical you are, might not happen at all.

Unfortunately, I have a creeping feeling that some would think that adopting such beliefs in speculation is too much effort for what it's worth. So, they're content to stick to their guns and perpetuate such issues.

uuuuuhhhhh i mean funny lowercase post i dont know what youre talking about look no apostrophes haha

Honestly, I think the biggest thing is people need to learn to agree to disagree.

99/100 we're talking about vidja gaymes. It ain't serious.

We need to be able accept that other people aren't bad or stupid for thinking differently. I can definitely think of some users who's opinions I'd rather avoid reading due to tone, and that shouldn't be the case. None of us should have to do that.

I'm guilty of that in the past and I'm trying to change.

I'll up your lack of apostrophes with Koopaling emote spam.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I think a huge part of the dogpiling problem is just that this thread has so many users. If one person says something controversial, especially if it goes against popular opinion, there's a lot of people who see it and feel the need to say something, and then a bandwagon effect can take in as well.

I think one thing we can all do individually is try not to repeat points other users have made. If you see one person says "Godzilla is too big for Smash", then that point has already been said. Sometimes liking a post you agree with is enough.

We can also try too keep our eyes open to dogpiling, and thread regulars can try to stand up for the person being dogpiled by pointing it out when it happens. It can be hard to do when you're on the same side of the debate as the dogpilers and agree with their points, but remember people will be more likely to listen to you if you show them proper respect.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

We like to dog pile a lot and I know many of the users here try to be objective about things but we can be way too confrontational and rude when we do it.

Thing is, I'm not sure how to fix the issue exactly.

Well the dog piling thing is a natural extension of everyone adding their two cents. If someone has the minority opinion, and everyone else disagrees, then they have to argue with an upwards of 5 people because that's how many feel the need to contribute to the conversation. In most cases like that, no-one's really attacking the minority opinion holder, but it can certainly feel that way when your having the same argument against 5 different people at once.

For me, the problem comes when people get snarky. When one side stops taking the other seriously, that's when people are insulted directly or otherwise. The most common form of this is a logical role reversal. Sometimes it can be used prove a point, but it can also be used to make fun of the logic itself, and that's not really ok.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

We like to dog pile a lot and I know many of the users here try to be objective about things but we can be way too confrontational and rude when we do it.

Thing is, I'm not sure how to fix the issue exactly.

..You're not wrong at all.

Then again, looking back at older threads that served similar purposes to this one, this is really nothing new, here.

But those the severity of the problem also fluctuated back then. And I can see that happening again, here. A gradual change for the better could easily happen, buuut it'll probably gradually reverse itself sometime after that...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

..You're not wrong at all.

Then again, looking back at older threads that served similar purposes to this one, this is really nothing new, here.

But those the severity of the problem also fluctuated back then. And I can see that happening again, here. A gradual change for the better could easily happen, buuut it'll probably gradually reverse itself sometime after that...

I'd argue even temporary improvement is better than no improvement at all.

And trust me, I'm aware of this not being new. I was there in the days of Saturn and Divine Diety. As bad as they could get, they straight up got bullied sometimes and I was a part of that.

 

[Pluckish]

We like to dog pile a lot and I know many of the users here try to be objective about things but we can be way too confrontational and rude when we do it.

Thing is, I'm not sure how to fix the issue exactly.

I feel like that's just a part of online discussion, especially when it's in a large thread like this. I agree with you 100%, but I don't really know if it'll really go out of fashion.

 

[Schnee117]

A large part of it is that people seem almost eager to make things into "Us Vs Them" scenarios as well as invent non-existant strawmen.

It's so close minded and completely flies in the face of bring a discussion thread. If you're not willing to learn, listen or consider other viewpoints over a "haha Mario punch Pikachu and Sonic game" then this isn't the thread for you.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I'd argue even temporary improvement is better than no improvement at all.

And trust me, I'm aware of this not being new. I was there in the days of Saturn and Divine Diety. As bad as they could get, they straight up got bullied sometimes and I was a part of that.

In hindsight, I do think we were a bit too harsh on them at times (I was part of that myself, and I won't deny it. And I also admit that I think I could've toned my own behavior towards them down, especially concerning Divine) but at the same time, their behavior frequently and blatantly went way beyond just having controversial opinions. They frequently got into straight-up trolling or bullying behavior themselves, and a had habits of getting much more confrontational than they should. They didn't always start the confrontation, sometimes other people started things or tried starting things with them when there was no need or justification for it, but the two were also not blameless, themselves. I'll leave it at that since it's probably not the best thing to discuss that, here, especially since they've long been banned.

And yes, temporary improvement would definitely be welcome over none at all. I get why people can see controversial opinions as ridiculous and get frustrated when someone continues their argument about it, but continuing from a point I was trying to make when considering the previously two mentioned users, I think there's a point where we all need to stop, slow down and ask ourselves who really started a given confrontation and if it's really warranted. Most of the time nowadays, they aren't warranted at all. People will make an innocent and sometimes perfectly valid argument, and a good chunk of other people gradually devolve into ganging up and passive-aggressively mocking the user in question along with their argument.

...And I'm not gonna lie, there are some specific users here whom I've seen end up dealing with that repeatedly when I feel they really did nothing at all to deserve it. Far far from it. I won't name anyone, because that's just asking for trouble, and I'm by no means trying to start anything, myself. Maybe I'm wrong about that,, maybe I'm not seeing or understanding things other people are, maybe people have a good reason for being frustrated after a while, and it simply happens to go on for longer than it should for varying reasons. But I'm just trying to make a point and say that, yes, everyone in this thread needs to calm down, act more civil, and remain more open-minded. We're all here because we all love Super Smash Bros., and we shouldn't be this aggressive or dismissive towards each other when talking about the roster or which characters might get in next and why.

 

[Hokori]

Honestly, I think the biggest thing is people need to learn to agree to disagree.

99/100 we're talking about vidja gaymes. It ain't serious.

We need to be able accept that other people aren't bad or stupid for thinking differently. I can definitely think of some users who's opinions I'd rather avoid reading due to tone, and that shouldn't be the case. None of us should have to do that.

I'm guilty of that in the past and I'm trying to change.

This right here is worthy of being in a signature.

It's one thing to be passionate about a character/game, but some end up going a bit too far in discussions.

I usually end up avoiding the bigger threads because of it (mainly just stick to lurking).I love multiple people sharing their views and all that jazz, but it inevitably turns into a toxic cesspool.

In the case of Smash, DLC discussion always get people riled up because some feel that supporting a different character means it's at the expense of their own wishlist and it ends up turning into character wars, etc. Honestly, there are a bunch of different reasons, and there's unfortunately no one size fits all solution to get people to...woosah.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's so close minded and completely flies in the face of bring a discussion thread. If you're not willing to learn, listen or consider other viewpoints over a "haha Mario punch Pikachu and Sonic game" then this isn't the thread for you.

At the same time, I feel we can all watch how we say things.

We shouldn't just blindly accept every opinion in the thread, but we can discuss and disagree politely and without snark or general mean feelings.

 

[Schnee117]

At the same time, I feel we can all watch how we say things.

We shouldn't just blindly accept every opinion in the thread, but we can discuss and disagree politely and without snark or general mean feelings.

Oh of course.
I'm just saying that people should be flexible rather than taking an unyielding approach.

 

[Will]

Maybe not for Geno but for a character as popular as Waluigi? And perhaps Isaac? Ooo baby.

People sometimes forget I own the Waluigi support thread and having Waluigi in part due to SM would be great, even if I prefer Helix as the ARMS character choice. I won't magically want SM instead just off the basis that he and only him could possibly give any other previous assist or spirit a fighting chance to upgrade into a playable character.

Whenever I express my optimism for Wa's chances this DLC season, SM-involved or not, I'm gonna see people flacking on Waluigi fans left and right just based on stereotypes and past experiences with a minuscule portion of the fanbase doing stupid stuff. "Oh no, not Waluigi! His fans are terrible!", or "No one really wants Waluigi, he's only a meme!". People can say what they want to any ridiculous degree or claim, it's their opinion. I can barely do my own taxes, I don't think I'm up for changing the minds of random strangers on the internet over a video game character.

I just wanted to support my favorite video game character after their chances lit up again, not fight as a military man online in the name of Charles Martinet. People trying to pick fights by proving themselves as the Smash prophet through some Ben Shapiro facts-and-logic mumbo jumbo has become tiring and unnecessary when a conversation like this only needs to boil down to "Well I don't think this should happen", followed by "OK cool whatever".

I've given up trying to call Sakurai's bluff, I'm just trying to have a good time. I say whoever gets in gets in, it do not matter and it should not affect me on a personal level in any way whatsoever. Unless it's Amingo, in that case I will die a happy man.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

I see the ATs/Spirits deconfirm characters banter is being brought up...again.

I feel like I’m the only person who thinks;

1. Assist Trophies deconfirm (until proven otherwise, as there has never been an Assist Trophy upgraded to playable within the same game of them being present as an Assist Trophy.), and the Assist Trophies are a means to have representation without being playable. Is it disheartening to see someone you wanted playable as an Assist Trophy? Yes. I’m not denying that. When Isabelle was an Assist in WiiU/3DS, I was heartbroken. However, I knew that upgrades happened in sequels, ala Little Mac from Brawl to Wii U/3DS, and I got lucky with Ultimate.

2. Spirits are literally the spiritual (pun intended) successor to what trophies were. Ultimate is packed full of content. Trophies were models that had to be designed. They took a lot of development time and space. The solution? Spirits. Use the artwork from other games, make them an in game collectible item, and viola, Spirits. If Mewtwo and Lucas having trophies on Wii U/3DS didn’t stop them from becoming playable, I don’t see why Spirits would do the same when they literally serve almost the exact same purpose.

TL;DR: I think Assist Trophies deconfirm because they are a means of representing a character without playable status and serve a purpose. I don’t think Spirits deconfirm because they are what Trophies were and that didn’t stop Mewtwo and Lucas from being playable on Wii U/ 3DS.

 

[Will]

TL;DR: I think Assist Trophies deconfirm because they are a means of representing a character without playable status and serve a purpose. I don’t think Spirits deconfirm because they are what Trophies were and that didn’t stop Mewtwo and Lucas from being playable on Wii U/ 3DS.

That sounds reasonable enough, Assists being set-in-stone as the ultimate "close enough" is sound enough. Though in the case for someone like Spring Man, someone like Springtron brings a unique concept to the table. It's a perfect match and a perfect excuse for an upgrade, especially if Sakurai is given the free reign of choice for any ARMS character and he wants to work with the funny wahoo boi-oing man. Of course, these are all hypotheticals.

What is your opinion on Spirits deconfirming post-launch? Before Byleth got announced, there were many people speculating that Fire Emblem: Three Houses was going to get hit after the Astral Chain event.

 

[Mamboo07]

I see the ATs/Spirits deconfirm characters banter is being brought up...again.

I feel like I’m the only person who thinks;

1. Assist Trophies deconfirm (until proven otherwise, as there has never been an Assist Trophy upgraded to playable within the same game of them being present as an Assist Trophy.), and the Assist Trophies are a means to have representation without being playable. Is it disheartening to see someone you wanted playable as an Assist Trophy? Yes. I’m not denying that. When Isabelle was an Assist in WiiU/3DS, I was heartbroken. However, I knew that upgrades happened in sequels, ala Little Mac from Brawl to Wii U/3DS, and I got lucky with Ultimate.

2. Spirits are literally the spiritual (pun intended) successor to what trophies were. Ultimate is packed full of content. Trophies were models that had to be designed. They took a lot of development time and space. The solution? Spirits. Use the artwork from other games, make them an in game collectible item, and viola, Spirits. If Mewtwo and Lucas having trophies on Wii U/3DS didn’t stop them from becoming playable, I don’t see why Spirits would do the same when they literally serve almost the exact same purpose.

TL;DR: I think Assist Trophies deconfirm because they are a means of representing a character without playable status and serve a purpose. I don’t think Spirits deconfirm because they are what Trophies were and that didn’t stop Mewtwo and Lucas from being playable on Wii U/ 3DS.

I pretty much bring up the first one.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

That sounds reasonable enough, Assists being set-in-stone as the ultimate "close enough" is sound enough. Though in the case for someone like Spring Man, someone like Springtron brings a unique concept to the table. It's a perfect match and a perfect excuse for an upgrade, especially if Sakurai is given the free reign of choice for any ARMS character and he wants to work with the funny wahoo boi-oing man. Of course, these are all hypotheticals.

Though, what is your opinion on Spirits deconfirming post-launch? I mean, before Byleth got announced, there were many people speculating that Fire Emblem: Three Houses was going to get hit after the Astral Chain event.

Spirits post-launch and in conjunction with FPVol.2 is tricky in my mind. One on hand, it does seem damning when a Spirit Event happens and the Protagonist has a Spirit in said event. However, on the other hand, I don’t know when and how Spirit Events were decided on, how they were scheduled to be released, and how that ties into the development of the chosen fighters of FPVol.2.

I know Nintendo chose the characters, and I know that Sakurai ultimately determines whether or not they can be made into a fighter, but I also know Sakurai, Nintendo, and companies closely working with Nintendo on Smash probably give insider information about future games or games early in development, yada-yada. Similar to how when Greninja was chosen, it was solely off concept art and that there was a placeholder for a New Challenger from the Pokémon series during the times of X and Y. It’s why I strongly believe that even though there was a Sword & Shield Spirit Event, that we could still very well get a Gen. VIII Pokémon in FPVol.2. There is plenty to work with in regards to another Spirit Event in regards to Sword & Shield. Especially with the upcoming DLC, and it’d be a great way to cross promote titles.

 

[Guynamednelson]

representing a character without playable status and serve a purpose

...Which is also the purpose of spirits, since they are more of a gameplay element than trophies.

 

[Heoj]

it pains me to say this but juat because the character might be an AT or spirit like Springman or the others doesnt mean **** for spirits like Geno and the others

d this doesnt really make any sense to me. Like im someone who personally really wants geno and if the arms rep does end up being a spirit upgrade then objectively that is good news. obviously it doesnt automatically mean that more spirit upgrades will happpen but it just proves that they are possible.
Obviously its also possible that the arms rep is a spirit and then sakurai says its the only upgrade but thats not important to think about right now.

What your saying just doesnt make any sense in my eyes

 

[WeirdChillFever]

In my view, ATs and Spirits are for characters that couldn’t be made playable in the base game for different reasons. Now that the circumstances have changed and DLC is well underway, it makes no sense to specifically lock out Spirits and ATs from playability. This does depend on the reason they were ATd/a spirit in the first place: ARMS’ exclusion from playability was timing-based. ARMS getting in doesn’t mean much for characters with other reasons for their exclusion. The events of DLC actually has to affect the reason they weren’t playable in the first place.

 

[Freduardo]

You know, between Demon Head, Rudy the Clown, and Terrormisu.... Wario bosses are kind of messed up.

and they never get invited go karting or get smash stage cameos (would love a wario land stage).

Rudy wants to go kart!

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

...Which is also the purpose of spirits, since they are more of a gameplay element than trophies.

Spirits don’t also have a 3D model already rendered that could have been used in order to develop said character into a fighter from the start of their development.

Spirits aren’t an item that allows a character to briefly appear to perform an action.

Sakurai also has mentioned in the past that characters that appear as Assist Trophies do so because “Just because you try hard doesn’t mean you’ll make it into battle.”

Things can change however, as we have seen.

My connection of Spirits and Trophies comes more from a collectible point of view. You collected Trophies like you collect Spirits now. After beating classic mode, you would get a character’s trophy. Now, you get the character’s Spirit. Albeit, Spirits have a usage other than collectibles yes, but they are the successor to Trophies.

Assist Trophies having be mentioned in the past as a “nail in the coffin” for a character’s chances to make it into battle, and Trophies, the predecessor to what Spirits are now, have not stopped characters like Mewtwo and Lucas from becoming downloadable content in the past.

Until an Assist Trophy gets upgraded in the same iteration that it is currently an Assist Trophy in, I stand by my statement that Assist Trophy are damning to a character’s inclusion. If it happens? Great! I was wrong, but until then...there’s always the next game.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Hey I got a Fighter pass game. I've noticed a lot of people bring up mostly characters who are human or human-like like Phoenix Wright, 2B, Master Chief, Dante, etc. so here's a challenge. Make a fighters pass using non-human characters. When I mean non-human I also include species that have any resemblance to having the facial features of a human being. Characters like ARMS' Helix are fine but a character like KOS-MOS aren't. Here is mine for example:

1. Crash Bandicoot (Crash Bandicoot)
2. Klonoa (Klonoa)
3. Robo (Chrono Trigger)
4. Yooka & Laylee (Yooka Laylee)
5. Tails (Sonic The Hedgehog)
6. R-109 (TimeSplitters)

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Hey I got a Fighter pass game. I've noticed a lot of people bring up mostly characters who are human or human-like like Phoenix Wright, 2B, Master Chief, Dante, etc. so here's a challenge. Make a fighters pass using non-human characters. When I mean non-human I also include species that have any resemblance to having the facial features of a human being. Characters like ARMS' Helix are fine but a character like KOS-MOS aren't. Here is mine for example:

1. Crash Bandicoot (Crash Bandicoot)
2. Klonoa (Klonoa)
3. Robo (Chrono Trigger)
4. Yooka & Laylee (Yooka Laylee)
5. Tails (Sonic The Hedgehog)
6. R-109 (TimeSplitters)

ok here I go
1. Ammy
2-6. The rest

 

[AceAttorney9000]

If it happens? Great! I was wrong, but until then...there’s always the next game.

This would be way more reassuring, if it weren't for the fact that "the next game" likely won't be coming out for a long time (there's been large gaps between Smash releases, starting with the period between Melee and Brawl). Not to mention, fan support is always rising and dipping between games, so for some characters who have an actual decent chance at getting into Smash right now, it's basically now or never. Either they get into Ultimate through DLC while the going's good, or they get passed up and their chances for getting into Smash at all drop to a big fat zero since their fan support is no longer there.

 

[PK-remling Fire]

Hey I got a Fighter pass game. I've noticed a lot of people bring up mostly characters who are human or human-like like Phoenix Wright, 2B, Master Chief, Dante, etc. so here's a challenge. Make a fighters pass using non-human characters. When I mean non-human I also include species that have any resemblance to having the facial features of a human being. Characters like ARMS' Helix are fine but a character like KOS-MOS aren't. Here is mine for example:

1. Crash Bandicoot (Crash Bandicoot)
2. Klonoa (Klonoa)
3. Robo (Chrono Trigger)
4. Yooka & Laylee (Yooka Laylee)
5. Tails (Sonic The Hedgehog)
6. R-109 (TimeSplitters)

I prefer non-humanoid characters so this one was pretty easy for me:
1. Amaterasu (Okami)
2. Prowler (Monster Hunter)
3. Crash (Crash Bandicoot)
4. Spyro (Spyro the Dragon)
5. Dry Bowser (Mario)
6. Agumon (Digimon)

 

[Heoj]

Hey I got a Fighter pass game. I've noticed a lot of people bring up mostly characters who are human or human-like like Phoenix Wright, 2B, Master Chief, Dante, etc. so here's a challenge. Make a fighters pass using non-human characters. When I mean non-human I also include species that have any resemblance to having the facial features of a human being. Characters like ARMS' Helix are fine but a character like KOS-MOS aren't. Here is mine for example:

1. Crash Bandicoot (Crash Bandicoot)
2. Klonoa (Klonoa)
3. Robo (Chrono Trigger)
4. Yooka & Laylee (Yooka Laylee)
5. Tails (Sonic The Hedgehog)
6. R-109 (TimeSplitters)

This ones a little tricky but still doable for me:
1: Geno
2. Agumon
3. Grovyle and Celebi (PMD)
4. Knuckles
5. Chibi Robo
6. Shy Guy

 

[Megadoomer]

Hey I got a Fighter pass game. I've noticed a lot of people bring up mostly characters who are human or human-like like Phoenix Wright, 2B, Master Chief, Dante, etc. so here's a challenge. Make a fighters pass using non-human characters. When I mean non-human I also include species that have any resemblance to having the facial features of a human being. Characters like ARMS' Helix are fine but a character like KOS-MOS aren't. Here is mine for example:

1. Crash Bandicoot (Crash Bandicoot)
2. Klonoa (Klonoa)
3. Robo (Chrono Trigger)
4. Yooka & Laylee (Yooka Laylee)
5. Tails (Sonic The Hedgehog)
6. R-109 (TimeSplitters)

1. Geno
2. Rayman
3. Amaterasu
4. Crash Bandicoot
5. Bandanna Waddle Dee
6. Conker

Tails barely missed the list; I had him on there originally, but then I remembered Conker, and how great it would be to have a Diddy Kong Racing reunion in Smash. (even if Conker's changed a lot since then)

 

[SKX31]

Spirits don’t also have a 3D model already rendered that could have been used in order to develop said character into a fighter from the start of their development.

Spirits aren’t an item that allows a character to briefly appear to perform an action.

Sakurai also has mentioned in the past that characters that appear as Assist Trophies do so because “Just because you try hard doesn’t mean you’ll make it into battle.”

Things can change however, as we have seen.

My connection of Spirits and Trophies comes more from a collectible point of view. You collected Trophies like you collect Spirits now. After beating classic mode, you would get a character’s trophy. Now, you get the character’s Spirit. Albeit, Spirits have a usage other than collectibles yes, but they are the successor to Trophies.

Assist Trophies having be mentioned in the past as a “nail in the coffin” for a character’s chances to make it into battle, and Trophies, the predecessor to what Spirits are now, have not stopped characters like Mewtwo and Lucas from becoming downloadable content in the past.

Until an Assist Trophy gets upgraded in the same iteration that it is currently an Assist Trophy in, I stand by my statement that Assist Trophy are damning to a character’s inclusion. If it happens? Great! I was wrong, but until then...there’s always the next game.

It's worth remembering that when Sakurai highlighted Spirits in the November 2018 presentation, he used terms like "Simulate Otherwise Impossible Battles". He also highlighted the fact that Spirits were supposed to be a multiplayer thing (he even used the Squad Strike mode) and that Spirits can be incorporated into amiibos (the latter is commonly used, see Hard DK).

Of course, his / Nintendo's stance re: Spirits could've changed by now FP2, but I'm in the "I believe it when I see it" camp because we don't have anything conclusive as of this writing.

Hey I got a Fighter pass game. I've noticed a lot of people bring up mostly characters who are human or human-like like Phoenix Wright, 2B, Master Chief, Dante, etc. so here's a challenge. Make a fighters pass using non-human characters. When I mean non-human I also include species that have any resemblance to having the facial features of a human being. Characters like ARMS' Helix are fine but a character like KOS-MOS aren't. Here is mine for example:

1. Crash Bandicoot (Crash Bandicoot)
2. Klonoa (Klonoa)
3. Robo (Chrono Trigger)
4. Yooka & Laylee (Yooka Laylee)
5. Tails (Sonic The Hedgehog)
6. R-109 (TimeSplitters)

1. Amaterasu
2. Sly Cooper
3. Tails
4. Sash Lilac (Freedom Planet)
5. Crash
6. Rash (Battletoads)

 

[ShrimpScampi]

Make a fighters pass using non-human characters. When I mean non-human I also include species that have any resemblance to having the facial features of a human being. Characters like ARMS' Helix are fine but a character like KOS-MOS aren't.

Hmmm, this one's harder because the majority of my most wanted are humans/human-like characters, but I guess this would be mine:

1. Bandana Waddle Dee (Kirby)
2. Amaterasu (Okami)
3. Monokuma (Danganronpa)
4. Emil (NieR)
5. Spyro (Skylanders Spyro the Dragon)
6. Another Sonic rep (Probably Knuckles, but I'd be cool with Shadow too if they gave him a moveset that took advantage of his Chaos powers instead of just being an echo for Sonic)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Hey I got a Fighter pass game. I've noticed a lot of people bring up mostly characters who are human or human-like like Phoenix Wright, 2B, Master Chief, Dante, etc. so here's a challenge. Make a fighters pass using non-human characters. When I mean non-human I also include species that have any resemblance to having the facial features of a human being. Characters like ARMS' Helix are fine but a character like KOS-MOS aren't. Here is mine for example:

1. Crash Bandicoot (Crash Bandicoot)
2. Klonoa (Klonoa)
3. Robo (Chrono Trigger)
4. Yooka & Laylee (Yooka Laylee)
5. Tails (Sonic The Hedgehog)
6. R-109 (TimeSplitters)

Oooh this is tricky, characters are often deliberately designed to be human-esque to make them more relatable on a visual level

Shovel Knight who surprisingly counts
Ammy
Heropon Riki
Blaze the Cat
Red Arremer/Firebrand
Anarkis from Darkstalkers, if he doesn't count, Vivi from FFIX

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

This would be way more reassuring, if it weren't for the fact that "the next game" likely won't be coming out for a long time (there's been large gaps between Smash releases, starting with the period between Melee and Brawl). Not to mention, fan support is always rising and dipping between games, so for some characters who have an actual decent chance at getting into Smash right now, it's basically now or never. Either they get into Ultimate through DLC while the going's good, or they get passed up and their chances for getting into Smash at all drop to a big fat zero since their fan support is no longer there.

Fan support got Ridley, K. Rool, and Chrom in Ultimate. Same goes for Banjo with the first wave of DLC. All the aforementioned characters were “passed their prime” or could’ve been added to the roster well before they actually made it onto the roster.

If a character’s support is strong enough to last then by the time the next game comes around they’ll have just as much a chance as they did before. If a character’s support dies down that significantly between games, then they didn’t deserve a spot on the roster in the first place if support is that circumstantial. I know that’s a somewhat harsh take, but it’s just what I think.

That should give hope to the Waluigi and Isaac supporters out there still hoping and waiting. Support for those characters has held strong for a literal decade at this point. While hope may be lost in the Assist Trophies of Ultimate, if the support remains like it did for Ridley, K.Rool, and Chrom, then who knows? By Smash 6 we may finally see them make it onto the roster. Only time will tell.

 

[Ura]

The people who want Spring Man because he's an AT don't want him because he guarantees other ATs or Spirits, they want him because that'll make people with the same beliefs at you stop shutting down discussion about those characters.

Personally I expect all the people who said "ATs/Spirits disconfirm" to just shift to "Spring Man was clearly a special occasion and none of the others are getting in". It's pretty much already happening.

First it was "no 1st party characters as DLC" or "only 1st party characters from new games" (alternatively, something something "expanding the crossover").

Then, after that it was sorta the same thing post-Fighters Pass being "the only 1st parties are going to be promotional or new characters".

Then ARMS happened and the new goalpost is "Springman might be the only upgrade because reasons". Basically, it's just moving on from one point to the next as if some people outright don't want to see that happen (not saying it's anyone here but it's a sense I get from some).

In my view, ATs and Spirits are for characters that couldn’t be made playable in the base game for different reasons. Now that the circumstances have changed and DLC is well underway, it makes no sense to specifically lock out Spirits and ATs from playability. This does depend on the reason they were ATd/a spirit in the first place: ARMS’ exclusion from playability was timing-based. ARMS getting in doesn’t mean much for characters with other reasons for their exclusion. The events of DLC actually has to affect the reason they weren’t playable in the first place.

On the other hand, there was only a finite amount of characters they could put in the base game so that argument falls apart when you consider there's well over a thousand Spirits in the game. And of course, circumstances may have changed then for some.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

First it was "no 1st party characters as DLC" or "only 1st party characters from new games" (alternatively, something something "expanding the crossover").

Then, after that it was sorta the same thing post-Fighters Pass being "the only 1st parties are going to be promotional or new characters".

Then ARMS happened and the new goalpost is "Springman might be the only upgrade because reasons". Basically, it's just moving on from one point to the next as if some people outright don't want to see that happen (not saying it's anyone here but it's a sense I get from some).

On the other hand, there was only a finite amount of characters they could put in the base game so that argument falls apart when you consider there's well over a thousand Spirits in the game. And of course, circumstances may have changed then for some.

Of course, for every Spirit circumstances have changed in the sense that the limited slots have opened up, but we have no way of knowing which characters were actually close to making the cut. In a sense that makes speculation wide-open again, but on the other hand it doesn’t guarantee a mass exodus of Assist Trophies, even if Spring Man is in.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Good morning!

When it comes to Smash speculation, and "upgrades", it's not a black and white situation all around. Based on experience since Wii U/3DS back when I was a wee youngin' in his freshman year of college to start, much of Smash speculation comes back to popularity as the "most important aspect". However, there seems to be a discrepancy between base game and DLC characters. There's also the fact that when suggestions are made that largely don't suggest what many consider an "ideal outcome" those suggestions aren't taken seriously.

This in itself is, from my viewpoint, based on the fact that there are two different conversations happening usually at the same time. Some folks are discussing (and sometimes arguing) which characters are "likely" based on given scenarios, and I don't believe that discussion should be discounted or given the characterization of "confirmation bias" as that's not always the case. The other discussion happening is folks who want to talk about the characters they want to see in Smash. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, as that's why most folks come here to post.

The thing is though, those conversations don't really mesh well together. If I say a particular character doesn't seem likely based on X, Y, or Z, the fans of that character more times than not will come out in defense of that character, when the goal wasn't to defame a character, but to measure/discuss potential inclusion.

That said, another thing I feel as though is misused is pointing out when people change their opinion based on new information as if it's a bad thing. What, am I supposed to have the same opinion regardless of anything new that comes out? That's ridiculous. The reason certain things are the way they are in society is because people are so terribly frightened of being wrong, and those reasons are put on in this thread or community sometimes.

It's almost as though folks are here more often than not to point out when people are wrong than actually talk about their characters or Smash in the first place.

Smash speculation is a lot like the scientific method. We start with an observation which is based on something, and then see how it plays out in future inclusions. Depending on this inclusion, we can either maintain the hypothesis or alter it to more accurately depict the situation. This is where ideas like, "mascots/protags first" come into play, as that has demonstrably been shown to be accurate 99%-100% of all series in Smash.

Something to think about in terms of upgrades is the difference in patterns and exceptions. Often, a hypothesis doesn't lead to a "theory" because the outcome cannot be replicated. This is where exceptions come in, and it applies heavily, as it currently stands, to ARMS in Smash. If the choice is Spring Man, or Min Min then that's obviously a spirit or AT upgrade. But each situation has their own context. Spring Man is not in the same boat as Isaac, for example, whose series is dead. It's more complex than, "AT upgrade? We can get more!"

That isn't to say anyone wanting upgrades is acting irrationally, but it's not so simple as to say "X means a greater likelihood of Y".

Sorry, Jonesposted again. To start the morning, no less...