Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Himiko]

Where are y'all going that diversity is the ONLY thing people mention when they say they want a character? Like, legit.

If anything it's the opposite. You could list a whole slew of reasons why a character would be a good addition but if you so much as mentioned diversity as a talking point among many other talking points, some would jump down your throat going "UMM ACTUALLY GAMEPLAY IS ALL THAT MATTERS WHO CARES" and whatnot.

Like, it always felt like I had to walk on eggshells when I said Edelgard would be really cool to see because, among other reasons, her addition would add another canonically bisexual woman to Smash (who also had the bonus of not being a player avatar). And like, bringing that kind of stuff up shouldn't be discouraged. Representation is important.

I agree. I always feel like people demand a lot more justification just for someone wanting a more diverse character.

 

[Aetheri]

Diversity is more often used as a supporting argument for a character's inclusion. Like I've used it for characters like Midna, Elma, and Dark Samus (before she was confirmed) for my support but I never really say anything a long the lines of:

"I want Midna cuz sheez'uh gurrl!" Because going off of that logic I should support literally every female character in existence simply off of the premise that they are female not because of their series or their moveset potential or whether I even give a damn about the character.

Whenever it is used as an argument for their inclusion it's usually one of many possible positive reasons and comes as a happy coincidence going off of the premise that people in general want more female fighters in the game. "Midna's a cool character and she happens to be a female as well!"

Of course with that said everyone has their reasons to support whoever they want for whatever reason they want.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I don't think blaming Sakurai or Nintendo or Smash for picking characters that usually are male and light-skinned, because that's usually what main characters are and main characters are the best way to represent a series or game.

I think the way to go about it is to demand more main characters that aren't that. Thankfully we've reached a point culturally where a main character can be a woman, a person of color, or both without that being seen as disruptive of the "genericness" or "normality" that the role requires. We're going to see more of that, although given how large Japan's gaming output is and its lack of racial diversity, the PoC front will probably be the West.

As for Smash? Well, I've seen a lot of people say that characters from represented franchises aren't exciting anymore, but if you want these kinds of characters you're going to have to support them, because second and even third reps are where these characters start to become candidates.

I want to address this specifically because that's what makes ARMS uniquely situated to help deal with this issue. Twintelle and Min Min, for example, have become immensely popular ARMS characters post launch that even lead a great deal of promotional material for ARMS and have actually moved the needle in terms of highlighting characters of color in the game. That's more or less exactly what you're telling people to do, the fan base literally made their voices heard and have helped push these characters to the forefront of ARMS. Now, are they exclusively beloved or supported for their skin color and/or ethnicity, of course not, and I hate when people resort to the straw man of "Ask for characters you want, not just diversity quota" when a good deal of people recognize both the diversity of the fighter AND their unique traits, abilities, and character all at once. Race, gender, or sexuality are rarely "all that matters" with these fighters for most people, but these realities can make people connect more with a character and be a further major component as to why people support them even if it's not "the only reason."

ARMS already has its white male protagonist already in the game as an Assist Trophy and has had some time to really define which of its characters are genuinely popular over the course of those next couple years post launch. It's uniquely situated to have very popular female characters of color step into a leading role within Smash that we just absolutely cannot say about most other video games, let alone Nintendo games. That's not disqualifying Spring Man per se, but it is creating an opening for further diverse fighters that is rarely open (which in of itself is a problem with the industry as you highlighted in your post). Nintendo of Japan may take diversity less into consideration than Nintendo of America would, but that doesn't mean they can't recognize such an opportunity as the one present with the ARMS situation. Having Spring Man continue to be the Assist Trophy alongside a new playable fighter from ARMS that isn't him actually helps result in showing off more of ARMS to players. Spring Man still gets an incredible honor as the assist trophy in the first place and could fight alongside or against another ARMS fighter. So, there's still a perfectly valid argument to foregoing the "traditional mascot" route as, again, ARMS and its characters have evolved in status and popularity significantly post launch from where Nintendo started advertising the game. Again, I have to emphasize how unique these circumstances are to creating a window for a more diverse (and more popular) fighter to step into the ring.


But beyond that, I think your "demand more diverse main characters in video games" comes off a bit as passing the buck on the issue. It essentially makes for a situation in which people who would like to see more diverse and popular options in Smash where there is no actionable plan forward. There can't be anything done directly in regards to Smash when you're telling people to diversify the industry as a whole instead (and it also is a macro ideology versus a targeted micro call to action, which in of itself makes it more difficult to realize). Pushing for more diversity across games as a whole and moving away from the homogenization of protagonists is still a worthy goal to pursue... but again, it basically makes a statement that you can't do anything about the current topic at hand of diversity in Smash when you utilize that approach. And it's not like Smash inherently lacks a ton of perfectly valid candidates to address this issue to begin with. 2B, Lara Croft, and Reimu are some options that immediately come to mind from brand new franchises that fit within Smash's tendency to add new franchises. I've already laid out how the ARMS situation is well suited to add to at least the gender diversity. I will admit that yes, adding additional fighters from existing franchises helps too in the cases of say Chun-Li and Dixie Kong too. I don't think Smash is in such a situation that we can't actively take action with it or request beloved fighters who also help expand Smash's diversity (which is literally something that Sakurai has highlighted as a goal in the past with Smash 4, so I don't think it's absolutely unreasonable to approach this topic as well).

This is not to say male characters are invalid options or any other hyperbolic misconstruing of my words. This is just pointing out that Smash does have some opportunities to diversify its roster with beloved characters, and that while yes, Spring Man is still a "valid choice" (the fact that calling for diversity makes me people think a character is thus invalid worries me a little to begin with), ARMS is also uniquely situated to pick a more diverse rep as a game that itself actually pushes more diversity than most with its two most popular characters being among the most diverse options in the game.

 

[zeldasmash]

Well, I don't know who is clamoring "over and over" since I haven't been on this website in months--but if you know who, feel free to tell me. Also, in my case, it's actually a lot of others here looking down on me for preferring a female character over Spring Man. Some came around to being understanding, and some others obviously haven't yet. And I stated earlier that it isn't a political issue, but rather a preference of the kinds of characters I like to play. Maybe you didn't read it though.

I don't like calling out specific users for things like that but she has been mentioned a few posts back, but I'll likely mention her with what I'm about to say.

I did catch up and when it comes to you, you are entitled to your opinion on your view of Spring Man. But, when you say things like "the cookie-cutter male protagonist" or "Nah, we'll pick the lame cookie cutter male that's basically already been added to the Smash roster time and time again. Please be excited!" sounds hostile (and agenda driven with the whole "male" thing) to those who think Spring Man would be cool. It's OK if you don't like Spring Man, but there are others who do like him and saying things like the things you said makes you come across as, ironically, looking down on those who like him.

People compared you to Lesley because the things you said come across as things she would say and she's rather infamous for her very aggressive and downright bad mentality when it comes to female playable characters. Like stated earlier, no one has a problem with female characters here. But she took it to the extreme where people become very apprehensive when it comes to talking things like that. I think that's why you claim people "viewed down upon you" because they don't want another similar situation like that.

Don't feel bad. You are entitled to their opinion, everyone is. But all of us should be civil and mature about it or at least self-aware about it. When they take themselves too seriously, you get situations like Lesley where no one wins and no one has fun.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Everyone has their own reasons for wanting different character, even if they might seem petty and silly to you.

My reasons for wanting Lola Pop for example: I think she has fun mechanics, I'd like a character who uses Nunchucks and I'd like to see more non-evil, non-creepy clown in fiction in general.

 

[Sari]

Wait there's a gender debate going on but somehow Lesley isn't involved at all? What is this blasphemy?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

My reasons for wanting Lola Pop for example: I think she has fun mechanics, I'd like a character who uses Nunchucks and I'd like to see more non-evil, non-creepy clown in fiction in general.

Silly Guybrush20X6. That doesn't exist! If it clown. It creepy.

You can't trust a face like this can you?

EDIT: Still don't understand how in the world a rainbow sheep that acts just like any other smug villager is considered to be the specific villager that's creepy.

 

[skylanders fan]

I got to thinking what if for the arms character they don’t do just alternate skins but a echo fighter so you can get said characters special abilities but also have similar moves I’m leaning more towards that with it being Springman and Ribbon Girl

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Wait there's a gender debate going on but somehow Lesley isn't involved at all? What is this blasphemy?

Who needs @Madame Lesley to get things heated up? . This whole debate only came up because of Spring Man discussions.

 

[Trevenant]

Everyone has their own reasons for wanting different character, even if they might seem petty and silly to you.

My reasons for wanting Lola Pop for example: I think she has fun mechanics, I'd like a character who uses Nunchucks and I'd like to see more non-evil, non-creepy clown in fiction in general.

TBH unique moveset potential and fun factor are what should go at the forefront of wanting a character and you just stated that you'd think she would be fun. I wouldn't want a female character only to fill a quota though. If a female character was so samey as another character or messy then I wouldn't want them in the game and I doubt even people who think they want female characters solely on the merits of them being female would

Wait there's a gender debate going on but somehow Lesley isn't involved at all? What is this blasphemy?

It's a dream. She is actually involved. The chances of her not being involved are as close as the chances of Buck Bumble from the hit game Buck Bumble joining the roster

 

[DMTN]

I don't really think people should constantly have to explain why they support certain characters. There isn't really a wrong reason to support someone. As long as you don't flame others.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I got to thinking what if for the arms character they don’t do just alternate skins but a echo fighter so you can get said characters special abilities but also have similar moves I’m leaning more towards that with it being Springman and Ribbon Girl

They can't do Echo Fighters because that's technically more than one character. The only way I see them do something like this is if the ARMS character is a custom character that allows you to swap between characters that modify more general aspects like mobility and ARMS that modify your normal attacks.

 

[Himiko]

I don't like calling out specific users for things like that but she has been mentioned a few posts back, but I'll likely mention her with what I'm about to say.

I did catch up and when it comes to you, you are entitled to your opinion on your view of Spring Man. But, when you say things like "the cookie-cutter male protagonist" or "Nah, we'll pick the lame cookie cutter male that's basically already been added to the Smash roster time and time again. Please be excited!" sounds hostile (and agenda driven with the whole "male" thing) to those who think Spring Man would be cool. It's OK if you don't like Spring Man, but there are others who do like him and saying things like the things you said makes you come across as, ironically, looking down on those who like him.

People compared you to Lesley because the things you said come across as things she would say and she's rather infamous for her very aggressive and downright bad mentality when it comes to female playable characters. Like stated earlier, no one has a problem with female characters here. But she took it to the extreme where people become very apprehensive when it comes to talking things like that. I think that's why you claim people "viewed down upon you" because they don't want another similar situation like that.

Don't feel bad. You are entitled to their opinion, everyone is. But all of us should be civil and mature about it or at least self-aware about it. When they take themselves too seriously, you get situations like Lesley where no one wins and no one has fun.

I know who Lesley is, but I was asking who is “clamoring over and over” because Lesley has been gone for many months now according to what I remember, and I haven’t been on here in a few months either. So I’m pretty sure the female character thing isn’t brought up all that often.

And I disagree that it was hostile to anyone. I would be more understanding that saying that would have been more of a problem if I kept saying it over and over through the discussion, but I actually didn’t. I literally moved on from saying anything else negative like that about Spring Man, yet here I am still being attacked and accused for expressing a dissenting opinion at the beginning of the discussion.

As I said before, I kept it pretty civil. If people can’t handle an opinion different from the masses around here then I might as well just delete my account and find a better community.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Didn’t stop people still supporting Rex despite him being a paid for Mii costume.

That's exclusive to a bundle that the costume is 1% of even to the biggest XBC2 fan.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Alright, what’s going on here?

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

I mean Spring Man isn't an exciting choice for me and I would greatly prefer Dr. Coyle, Min Min or Twintelle, but good for his fans if he is the ARMs rep.

 

[Speed Weed]

once again

i am perfectly fine with people wanting more diversity

what i'm not ok with is when these people turn around and start dunking on a character solely because they're male or pushing the narrative that this community is sexist if we aren't constantly talking about females. i think it should be pretty easy to spot what's wrong with that

 

[Phoenixio]

I'm surprised gender diversity has been such a big thing here... The people on Smash Boards should be fairly young overall, and it's usually not a demographic where gender equality/diversity is much of an issue. It seems weird to me to even push for that fight on here, it's like hammering on a nail already in place.

Likewise, since that very same demographic are also becoming programmers/developers, we're seeing more and more games with female protagonists. The issue though is that it's happening now, not 30 years ago when video games started. So it'll take some time for some female characters to set themselves as iconic, and be picked for mash-up games like Smash. It's certainly happening, with the likes of Inkling, Bayonetta, Lucina and whatnot, that are fairly recent and made it in. But it's also not surprising if only 10% or so of protagonists in games are female, yet, and so there'd be fewer females than males picked for Smash.

So yeah, it's a bit weird to me to pull the diversity cards or quotas, when in fact the roster is fairly accurate to the culture of the time. And time will make sure that today's developers make it so that tomorrow's gamers get much better gender diversity.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The people on Smash Boards should be fairly young overall, and it's usually not a demographic where gender equality/diversity is much of an issue.

How young do you think everyone is? This is an issue for a lot of people 16+.

(also if I'm looking at the right thing, nobody on this page with their age displayed is younger than 20)

 

[Himiko]

Alright, what’s going on here?

People can’t handle a different opinion.

once again

i am perfectly fine with people wanting more diversity

what i'm not ok with is when these people turn around and start dunking on a character solely because they're male or pushing the narrative that this community is sexist if we aren't constantly talking about females. i think it should be pretty easy to spot what's wrong with that

I expressed an opinion earlier that Spring Man is a lame cookie-cutter male protagonist like many other characters in the game already. It isn’t just the fact that he’s male though—There are a couple male characters that I would even get excited about if they came to Smash—but I do heavily prefer playing female characters most of the time, and the dlc so far has not really accommodated someone like me (outside of Byleth female alt which I wasn’t really excited about when that character was released in the first place because female characters still need to have a design and personality that I like). I personally haven’t called anyone sexist though, but I do think a lot of people are insensitive to those that are lacking any dlc characters that they like because of the lack of diversity.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Nintendo of Europe just broke their silence. Maybe an good sign to come that we'll hear something today.

 

[osby]

I'm surprised gender diversity has been such a big thing here... The people on Smash Boards should be fairly young overall, and it's usually not a demographic where gender equality/diversity is much of an issue. It seems weird to me to even push for that fight on here, it's like hammering on a nail already in place.

Likewise, since that very same demographic are also becoming programmers/developers, we're seeing more and more games with female protagonists. The issue though is that it's happening now, not 30 years ago when video games started. So it'll take some time for some female characters to set themselves as iconic, and be picked for mash-up games like Smash. It's certainly happening, with the likes of Inkling, Bayonetta, Lucina and whatnot, that are fairly recent and made it in. But it's also not surprising if only 10% or so of protagonists in games are female, yet, and so there'd be fewer females than males picked for Smash.

So yeah, it's a bit weird to me to pull the diversity cards or quotas, when in fact the roster is fairly accurate to the culture of the time. And time will make sure that today's developers make it so that tomorrow's gamers get much better gender diversity.

I mean, we are specifically talking about this issue in regards to ARMS, a very recent game that promoted itself from the start with a male and female character and is fairly gender-equal for a fighting game.

I don't think it's weird that people bring this topic up when playing "guess who" in regards to ARMS.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I've enjoyed every Tales game I've played (which is only Symphonia, Symphonia 2, Abyss and Vesperia), so I'm game for it.

I got one hell of a back log though.

It may be a while.


I mean, I'd personally count Banjo and Kazooie as a team character like Rosalina & Luma and Ice Climbers. One team of two genders (I think Luma is male). Kazooie can't work without Banjo and vice versa.


?

I mean, maybe I'm not seeing it but he looks about as dark skinned as Little Mac, who I'd say is Mediterranean? I think I read he's an Italian American somewhere.

I don't know Guilty Gear very well.

I'll definitely agree there. The two are conflated more than they should be. Smash could use some more diversity and they're making nice steps with the avatar characters getting different genders and darker skin pallets. Heck we even got canon LGBTQ characters with Corrin and Byleth. It's something to celebrate, methinks.

I guess I just think the best way to get that diversity is to show people (fans and developers) why and how you love a character instead of making it an abstract argument. Positive feelings tend to make people more agreeable.

Iggy face cause I like Iggy


You don't owe me anything.

I was just pointing out that your style of argument won't win people over and is mistranslating your desires into what looks like tokenism.

Look at the thread, we all have female characters we want. I mean look at me. Elma would be ****ing dope!

In a way, you're preaching to the choir, but you're preaching it in the wrong way.

With the Banjo Kazooie stuff, I meant how common it was to hear "stop asking for women, you got Kazooie, asking for more is greedy"

Sol's very much based on Freddy Mercury, who's Indian iirc, compare him to GG's other poster boy Ky and Sol's skin is noticably darker in comparison. Hell, all the renders for Strive show Sol's skin is darker than the rest of the cast so far

C'mon, how could you guys not like this scamp?

View attachment 274348

Wanting more female reps is fine, but I'm seeing too many people write off the male characters just because of their gender. That's not really fair. There are lots of other qualities that make a character appealing aside from their gender.

Whether or not a character is female shouldn't be your sole basis for choosing characters.

Because I'd like characters with more to them, Spring Man's such a basic protagonist that he makes goddamn Goku look complex in comparison

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

People can’t handle a different opinion.

Well...Disagreeing isn't exactly being unable to handle a different opinion. I may have missed some things, but I don't think anyone's pissed or yelling at you.

There does seem to be some preconceived notions causing miscommunication, but that's about it from what I've seen.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Spoiler

Wrap it up folks. Vergeben spoke out, speculation is over. Time to move onto FP7.

 

[Deleted member]

Spoiler

Wrap it up folks. Vergeben spoke out, speculation is over. Time to move onto FP7.

Two things:

>Can that person confirm they know Vergeben?
>Vergeben said MvC5 was happening and I'm still waiting

The word of an insider never ends speculation.

 

[PK-remling Fire]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Springman either. I wouldn't be devastated if he got in, but half the cast is more interesting to me than him. And if Smash Bros opened up the possiblity that the character could be Min Min, Lola Pop, Twintelle, Dr. Coyle, Kid Cobra, or Max Brass, of course I'd gun for those characters instead of Spring Man. Plus it'd feel a bit anticlimactic if they opened up the possibility of it being anyone only to go with the shounen protagonist mascot, but that's just me.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Spoiler

Wrap it up folks. Vergeben spoke out, speculation is over. Time to move onto FP7.

With the exception of P4G and TWEWY2, I’d wait for the rest to be actually confirmed as he doesn’t seem sure about it (“might”, “possibly” etc)

 

[Opossum]

Spoiler

Wrap it up folks. Vergeben spoke out, speculation is over. Time to move onto FP7.

Maybe I'd believe it if it came from Vergeben himself and not the discord of Sabi, a known liar.

 

[Himiko]

Well...Disagreeing isn't exactly being unable to handle a different opinion. I may have missed some things, but I don't think anyone's pissed or yelling at you.

There does seem to be some preconceived notions causing miscommunication, but that's about it from what I've seen.

Lots of accusations skewing the situation as me being “hostile” and “aggressive” to others when really it’s just the fact that they don’t like my opinion.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Spoiler

Wrap it up folks. Vergeben spoke out, speculation is over. Time to move onto FP7.

I don't buy it.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Spoiler

Wrap it up folks. Vergeben spoke out, speculation is over. Time to move onto FP7.

People have already said stuff about this but P4G, TWEWY2, Metroid 5 and RE8 are common knowledge at this point, not to mention KoFXV's stated to come out this year, so that's an incredibly easy thing to guess

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

People have already said stuff about this but P4G, TWEWY2, Metroid 5 and RE8 are common knowledge at this point, not to mention KoFXV's stated to come out this year, so that's an incredibly easy thing to guess

That and the "Hero situation" that and everyone has been predicting for months now. I mean, Smash reveals aren't contrarian so the fact that it's everyone's guess doesn't make it not true, but I don't think this particular thing is likely in the slightest regardless.

 

[RileyXY1]

That and the "Hero situation" that and everyone has been predicting for months now. I mean, Smash reveals aren't contrarian so the fact that it's everyone's guess doesn't make it not true, but I don't think this particular thing is likely in the slightest regardless.

Yeah. It's filled with common leakbait. I tend to not trust rumors mostly comprised of information from other rumors.

 

[AmphabulouSnake]

Still gonna hope it's not a Hero situation...

 

[Speed Weed]

People can’t handle a different opinion.



I expressed an opinion earlier that Spring Man is a lame cookie-cutter male protagonist like many other characters in the game already. It isn’t just the fact that he’s male though—There are a couple male characters that I would even get excited about if they came to Smash—but I do heavily prefer playing female characters most of the time, and the dlc so far has not really accommodated someone like me (outside of Byleth female alt which I wasn’t really excited about when that character was released in the first place because female characters still need to have a design and personality that I like). I personally haven’t called anyone sexist though, but I do think a lot of people are insensitive to those that are lacking any dlc characters that they like because of the lack of diversity.

i know you weren't calling anyone sexist, i wasn't specifically aiming this at you. the "calling people sexist" part was moreso about a certain someone

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Still gonna hope it's not a Hero situation...

Why? It'll be win-win for everyone who wanted Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Ninjara and Minmin.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If Vergeben has posted on GameFAQs with that, then I'll take it more seriously. Not that he can't hear things wrong, obviously. But right now, that's a pretty major lack of a proper sourcing. Some guy saying he heard Vergeben saying it doesn't make it a good source. It shouldn't be that hard to link to his own statements.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

If Vergeben has posted on GameFAQs with that, then I'll take it more seriously. Not that he can't hear things wrong, obviously. But right now, that's a pretty major lack of a proper sourcing. Some guy saying he heard Vergeben saying it doesn't make it a good source. It shouldn't be that hard to link to his own statements.

Does Vergeben even HAVE a discord? His GFAQS signature says he’s only on GFAQS and Reddit and if you see him anywhere else it’s not him

 

[RileyXY1]

If Vergeben has posted on GameFAQs with that, then I'll take it more seriously. Not that he can't hear things wrong, obviously. But right now, that's a pretty major lack of a proper sourcing. Some guy saying he heard Vergeben saying it doesn't make it a good source. It shouldn't be that hard to link to his own statements.

The only source is Sabi's Discord.