Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Deleted member]

You know, all this talk about censorship and stuff sorta makes me wonder if Resident Evil content in Smash won't include any zombies and fleshy creatures as spirits or in the background of a stage. I'm certainly curious about how in the world would they try to incorporate RE's zombie designs in a Smash game without potentially raising the age rating.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That particular post was just me saying that I like the idea of Mai being in Smash. I've made no attempt to create an argument for her inclusion because I don't think a very good one can be made.
As for the prude part; A number of posts have smacked of "Pyra-shaming" as one poster so eloquently put it.

People aren't shaming anyone either. They're just sick of the sexualization argument. Which isn't really a good argument for anywhere but Debate Hall because it gets heated.

People aren't being prudes anyway. They just understand why it's unlikely because they immensely tone down characters with less revealing outfits. Mai just fits under the "revealing outfit" part and it's understandable why they don't think she has a chance. As a fan of the character, I don't have faith in her being playable. Especially if the popularity comes from her design. Though yeah, "bad design" isn't the best of words, but I'm sure you get the overall point I was making? More that it's bad for what Smash is trying to do overall, have a more family-friend cast of characters, only so far allowed to go a tiny bit overboard(Ridley being heavily violent, Zero Suit Samus before Ultimate having unrealistic proportions and a very tight jumpsuit, Bayonetta by design alone, even while toned down). If they can tone her down with a less revealing outfit and no bounce, she's be a sweet choice alone. I wish I could have faith in her, though, but it's pretty hard at this time. Was she ever toned down in a single crossover?

 

[Deleted member]

Calling people out on being prudes for not thinking that Mai is a good fit for Smash is not an argument, and a massive assumption on your part.



Google Trends backs up both points. Mai is massive in China and SE Asia but Chun-Li is clearly a bigger and more iconic when accounting most of the world. But since China is such a hard market for any non Chinese company to crack, I do doubt a pick built to solely to cater to a country where Nintendo wouldn't even see the full benefit of profit because Tencent as well as SNK would almost certainly take a cut once the Switch is out there.

And that's my last piece on Mai.

Google trends is hardly the end all-be all for measuring the popularity of a character, but for the sake of argument, let’s just roll with it.

If anything, this backs up my statement that Mai is Chun Li’s rival, and tied for 2nd as most iconic fighting game character behind Ryu. That was the title she was given in her hayday back in the late 90s/early 00s, but with the fall of SNK, it’s only natural to assume her relative popularity would decrease. That said, it’s clear her status has held in numerous parts of the world, and the character still remains popular. This doesn’t disprove Mai isn’t Chun Li’s rival as she’s always been. And as far as the Chun Li debate goes, she’s out of the question for Smash anyway due to SF already having TWO characters. Whereas Mai being next in line would be first pick to show up for another fighting game IP. This puts her over Heihachi, Terry, and pretty much anyone else in fighting games.

Using your same method of Google trends, if we compare Mai to Terry, she ABSOLUTELY dwarfs him in popularity. We do this for other contending female characters too, like Lara Croft, and we see that in Asia and Japan, Mai once again takes the spotlight by a significant margin. My point stands.

 

[Wunderwaft]

We're still arguing over characters being "too sexy for Smash"? I don't particularly care for Mai or an SNK rep but if Nintendo picks Mai then there's nothing stoping them from toning her down a bit. They did it with Bayonetta and other characters and they can do the same thing to Mai and others.

 

[Deleted member]

You know, all this talk about censorship and stuff sorta makes me wonder if Resident Evil content in Smash won't include any zombies and fleshy creatures as spirits or in the background of a stage. I'm certainly curious about how in the world would they try to incorporate RE's zombie designs in a Smash game without potentially raising the age rating.

UMvC3 had Nemesis for example and the game retained the T rating. I think it should be fine as long as they avoid blood and gore, so I believe showing zombies is fine but probably they will avoid having them missing members or with a ton of blood.

 

[Wunderwaft]

You know, all this talk about censorship and stuff sorta makes me wonder if Resident Evil content in Smash won't include any zombies and fleshy creatures as spirits or in the background of a stage. I'm certainly curious about how in the world would they try to incorporate RE's zombie designs in a Smash game without potentially raising the age rating.

It wouldn't really be a big problem. They just don't have to go overboard with the zombie design and they'll be fine. The zombies from MvC2 are a good example of them being toned down a bit, if you want to take them and put them in Smash then all what you have to do is take the blood away and the rating will still be fine.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

For the Zombie thing, that's not as big of a deal. Japan actually has a lot more problems with the sexy designs lately and tone them down for crossovers based upon the game's overall rating. They were the reason even Palutena got some toning down, not US-related stuff. People talk about the US being prudes and all, but it was actually Japan that cared more about it in comparison. If the violence is bloody and gory, that won't cut it for Smash. You don't even need that for the Zombies. You could at best somewhat simplify their designs to be a tiny bit gross. Not as simplified as Redeads, of course. And we've had some fairly crude designs in Smash via Spirits and such, last I checked, so I'm not too worried. Otherwise, they could try and have the DLC rated separately and just note that DLC doesn't match the original game's ratings? Though I can't remember how that works in the case of a Fighter's Pass. I don't think they advertised them as having an e10+ rating? I mean, it's safe to say any character and their assets will still be toned down to some degree to fit a more lighthearted game like Smash and all, but that's not the same as the actual rating of the DLC characters.

 

[Nquoid]

Google trends is hardly the end all-be all for measuring the popularity of a character, but for the sake of argument, let’s just roll with it.

If anything, this backs up my statement that Mai is Chun Li’s rival, and tied for 2nd as most iconic fighting game character behind Ryu. That was the title she was given in her hayday back in the late 90s/early 00s, but with the fall of SNK, it’s only natural to assume her relative popularity would decrease. That said, it’s clear her status has held in numerous parts of the world, and the character still remains popular. This doesn’t disprove Mai isn’t Chun Li’s rival as she’s always been. And as far as the Chun Li debate goes, she’s out of the question for Smash anyway due to SF already having TWO characters. Whereas Mai being next in line would be first pick to show up for another fighting game IP. This puts her over Heihachi, Terry, and pretty much anyone else in fighting games.

Using your same method of Google trends, if we compare Mai to Terry, she ABSOLUTELY dwarfs him in popularity. We do this for other contending female characters too, like Lara Croft, and we see that in Asia and Japan, Mai once again takes the spotlight by a significant margin. My point stands.

Man, you just love saying other people's sources and data are worthless don't you? It's a bad faith argument especially when all you have done is just copy paste to a wikipedia page and their citations, most of which are to 90s gaming magazines and anecdotal evidence.

I've been trying to compromise, saying that you're right about her popularity in Asia, but you have such a need to be seen as right on this. Here is another Google Trends proving again that you're correct on Terry and Heihachi in comparison to Mai, but I also put in Master Chief who is an actual rival to Chun-Li in terms of popularity world wide. And don't come at me saying that Halo sold barely any copies in Japan. King of Fighters XIV has sold less than a half million copies world wide. If you want to debate her impact on the wider culture that's fine, I've extended that olive branch. But her merits as a video game character are slim in comparison to a lot of who is thrown around in speculation atm. But you will inevitably link to some list of games shes made a 10 second cameo in as proof shes the most iconic female video game character of all time or some bull****.

I'm done with you, if you can't even begin to make a compromise on this then you're clearly not worth my time and I look forward to when this thread stops being about the merits of this character.

 

[OrpheusTelos]

Spoiler

So... I guess the mystery of who the 4th fighter is gonna be has already been solved
https://jerryle3.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F185811038445

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

For the Zombie thing, that's not as big of a deal. Japan actually has a lot more problems with the sexy designs lately and tone them down for crossovers based upon the game's overall rating. They were the reason even Palutena got some toning down, not US-related stuff. People talk about the US being prudes and all, but it was actually Japan that cared more about it in comparison. If the violence is bloody and gory, that won't cut it for Smash. You don't even need that for the Zombies. You could at best somewhat simplify their designs to be a tiny bit gross. Not as simplified as Redeads, of course. And we've had some fairly crude designs in Smash via Spirits and such, last I checked, so I'm not too worried. Otherwise, they could try and have the DLC rated separately and just note that DLC doesn't match the original game's ratings? Though I can't remember how that works in the case of a Fighter's Pass. I don't think they advertised them as having an e10+ rating? I mean, it's safe to say any character and their assets will still be toned down to some degree to fit a more lighthearted game like Smash and all, but that's not the same as the actual rating of the DLC characters.

same, I don't think zombies are that much of a big deal to change for the game's e10+ rating standards

 

[Deleted member]

Oh silly me, why would I doubt Smash to put zombies in the game when RE 6 had this:

In all seriousness though, I do also wonder about the other creatures in RE too. Lickers could probably work, but there's also the dogs and stuff.

 

[perfectchaos83]

For the Zombie thing, that's not as big of a deal. Japan actually has a lot more problems with the sexy designs lately and tone them down for crossovers based upon the game's overall rating. They were the reason even Palutena got some toning down, not US-related stuff. People talk about the US being prudes and all, but it was actually Japan that cared more about it in comparison. If the violence is bloody and gory, that won't cut it for Smash. You don't even need that for the Zombies. You could at best somewhat simplify their designs to be a tiny bit gross. Not as simplified as Redeads, of course. And we've had some fairly crude designs in Smash via Spirits and such, last I checked, so I'm not too worried. Otherwise, they could try and have the DLC rated separately and just note that DLC doesn't match the original game's ratings? Though I can't remember how that works in the case of a Fighter's Pass. I don't think they advertised them as having an e10+ rating? I mean, it's safe to say any character and their assets will still be toned down to some degree to fit a more lighthearted game like Smash and all, but that's not the same as the actual rating of the DLC characters.

Sex appeal only really matters for CERO A (which is Smash's primary rating target) and maybe CERO B. Other than that, any real change regarding sex appeal has been on Sony's hands, and that's more than likely based on them moving their base of operations to San Fransisco rather than anything happening in Japan.

 

[lordvaati]

Spoiler

So... I guess the mystery of who the 4th fighter is gonna be has already been solved
https://jerryle3.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F185811038445

I knew where this was going but still blurted out laughing anyway.

 

[KatKit]

As far as SNK reps go, Mai would be nice, but I'd personally prefer Athena Asamiya. Let's face it: she's a descendant of a heavenly princess, has psychic powers (which she wants to hone to advance her career!), is not only a KoF rep, but has a franchise of her own (and she's a "virtual Youtuber", so she's a company mascot with real world celebrity status that's used to promote stuff, which is true to her character), has the first vocalized theme song in video game history, was a pop idol before it was cool, constantly changes her appearance yet still manages to be recognizable, and (visually) would be the closet thing to Ayumi Tachibana. Simply put, she's girl power: the character. As far as women in video games go, she was a pioneer.

Although I'd still prefer my girls King and Leona (and even Kula and Yuri), who are all popular in their own right. All of this is hypothetical and they're all probably unlikely. Just saying, Athena > Mai, but literally any SNK character would be great to have.

 

[Deleted member]

Spoiler: Huge post

Man, you just love saying other people's sources and data are worthless don't you? It's a bad faith argument especially when all you have done is just copy paste to a wikipedia page and their citations, most of which are to 90s gaming magazines and anecdotal evidence.

I've been trying to compromise, saying that you're right about her popularity in Asia, but you have such a need to be seen as right on this. Here is another Google Trends proving again that you're correct on Terry and Heihachi in comparison to Mai, but I also put in Master Chief who is an actual rival to Chun-Li in terms of popularity world wide. And don't come at me saying that Halo sold barely any copies in Japan. King of Fighters XIV has sold less than a half million copies world wide. If you want to debate her impact on the wider culture that's fine, I've extended that olive branch. But her merits as a video game character are slim in comparison to a lot of who is thrown around in speculation atm. But you will inevitably link to some list of games shes made a 10 second cameo in as proof shes the most iconic female video game character of all time or some bull****.

I'm done with you, if you can't even begin to make a compromise on this then you're clearly not worth my time and I look forward to when this thread stops being about the merits of this character.

Well hold on a second man, no need to take any of this personally.

Let me clarify what I meant. Google Trends is not the end all be all for deciding a character's popularity, that's all. Simply cause popularity is something that takes multiple facets to analyze, not just a quick look at a single source, and assume that that settles that. Plus, I said that regardless, I was willing to play ball with your source. I was merely specifying to avoid absolutism, that's all.

But anyway, let's look at your data with more clarity, as you've jumbled too many data points which muddles the core argument. We can discard Terry, and Heihachi as we can agree that Mai is more popular than both of them, pretty much absolutely. And we can discard Chun Li, as she's generally irrelevant to the conversation overall. I think it's generally accepted that Mai and the Chunners more or less rival each other in popularity, as that's been the generally accepted fact among the FGC for years now, and one that even the devs acknowledged and perpetrated.

Instead, let's focus on Mai and Chief for a bit, as this is interesting and it addresses something someone ITT had argued against:

"Is Mai comparable to Chief as a gaming icon?"

I argue, yes, lets look:

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=/m/048xk0,/m/0386k7

Now, right off the bat, we can see that Chief covers all the Anglo and European countries, and Mai counters that in LatAm and East Asia. Places like Japan, seeing a 10/1 ratio in favor of Mai, and the USA seeing the exact opposite in favor of Chief. However, the top graph in the original link, shows that Chief is significantly more popular than Mai on a global scale. though the two can be compared.

Well, that data is skewed, look at this:

China is not registering at all as a region for Chief, so it's not factored in. Whereas, if you look here, you see that Mai has a search interest value of 100 in China, higher than any other nation on Earth. A region which isn't even being counted for Chief as Xbox and Halo are simply not even available in China. In fact, I don't feel like digging this up, but some anons on 4chan yesterday also ran Trends Queries for Mai vs. Mario, and Mai vs. Sonic, and she beat those out in China too. Now, this data is hard to trust overall, as China is officially censored/blocked in China, but it means something. The point I'm trying to make here, is simply that Mai is a gaming icon COMPARABLE to the likes of Chief, Doomguy, and etc... I'm not arguing that she's in. I'm arguing in favor WANTING her in, as I personally don't really care who we get so long as they're significant gaming icons, so Crash, Doomguy, Chief, Ryu Hyabusa, a Dark Souls character, etc... are all fine with me. In fact, I'd have an easier time listing characters I'd be disappointed in seeing, than characters I'd be happy or excited for.

The point I'm making is simple. Mai Shiranui is a character that's flying under EVERYONE's radars for whatever reason (mostly personal bias out of either wanting someone else, or finding sex appeal innappropriate/offensive) despite the fact that Mai Shiranui is a character that stands EQUAL to the likes of other iconic characters often speculated about among Smash circles. She is just as important and iconic of a character as Master Chief, Doomguy, Ryu Hyabusa, Dante, Chun Li, Jill Valentine, etc...

I think it's absurd to argue against the character's status as a gaming icon, despite all the evidence presented.

The real issue with Mai is "is she too sexy for Smash." I'll be addressing that in a future post, with example images, but she just might be. Idk. If she doesn't get in, one of the contributing factors for that might actually be her sex appeal being a little too brazen for Smash by western standards. But more on that later.

However, as far as SNK characters go, as far as fighting game IP characters go: Mai is indesputably MUCH more popular AND more likely than any other options. The only one to rival Mai, Chun Li, is discarted due to SF characters already being in Smash, but between Nakoruru, Heihachi, Terry, Kyo, etc... etc... Mai is indesputably the most likely, most popular, most iconic, and most logical choice, and the reason for that, is cause wheras the rest of the characters I just mentioned only serve to represent arcade fighitng games, Mai's popularity extends so far beyond SNK, KoF, and the FGC, that she actually represents a whole lot more, and has status as a sex symbol in gaming, which is what's made her so popular. The other characters don't really compare to some of the titans already in the game, like Yuusha, Cloud, Sonic, Ryu, etc... Mai however, fits, because once again, her popularity goes well-beyond fighting games, and her status as an icon, ISN'T tied to fighting games or SNK. I hope that Google trends allowed you to at least see just how significant this character is in Asia, especially her native country of Japan. She's VERY imporant. She's as significant if not more significant in Asia, as Chief or Doomguy are to the west, with her popularity in places like China, Hong Kong, and so on being absolutely STAGGERING.

Now among female characters. I'd say Lara has no chance, so I think the two most likely female characters are either Jill, or Mai. Unless we get some off the wall pick like Reimu or Miku.

But that's all I'm saying. Mai, because of her popularity and iconic status, especially in parts like Asia, is actually a lot more likely than people like to think as a possible DLC character for Smash. Her only issue is really "is she too sexy for Smash," which once again, I'll address my take on that in a bit. But I hope I've made my point clear. Mai's status as a cultural icon in gaming is indesputable, and rivals that of other titans like Chief. I'm not saying she's more likely than any of them, or that she's better, cause idk. But she's defintily up there, and I don't think that can be contested given all the evidence. If people want to contest it, I offer them a chance to, but please provide sources.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Please put huge posts in spoilers, thanks.

Also, to clarify what we mean by we want to avoid sexualization as a topic doesn't mean we can't slightly debate on Mai to some degree. One person saying she should be toned down with the other person saying it's not necessary is overall fine. This isn't as big of a deal because it's purely in the context of Smash. However, don't go beyond this please. Sexualization in general doesn't belong here. Keep it solely to her chances in Smash overall at best. It also is probably better to just drop that bit overall as it's going in circles.

Also, please don't mass quote various wiki articles either. This isn't really making for good debate and just misses a lot of the points being made. Citing sources is fine, but please actually debate your position too(to help clarify, when we say "actually debate your position", we mean use your own own words and thoughts).

 

[Ornl]

From personal experience, I agree that Mai Shiranui is the most iconic SNK rep. She is the first one I knew thanks to animated gifs in pixel art. Because the breasts really had an atypical animation.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Personally I'm totally OK with guys like Sir Dan being in, because they feel like they're really going deep with the representation and kept it from being fully a marketing machine. But yeah, Crash and Spyro should have been in.

Maybe I should have rephrased that: I don't have a problem with Dan specifically, but I did find it weird that they went after the more obscure PS1-era icons but not the main ones the console was pretty much known for.

Obviously because Smash already had Snake. So what better logical way then going with Metal Gear's other protagonist.

Raiden was chosen to promote MGR. The whole game was one big advertisement. They didn’t even put in the real Dante, they put in the reboot one to promote the reboot.

Yeah, Snake being in Smash is not something that should have been seen as an obstacle. I mean, look at Yacht Club, they put Shovel Knight anywhere they can, doesn't matter if he was on Rivals or Brawlhalla before. On the topic of Dante, they should have taken a note from Link: his design changes not just because the Zelda games are new, but because they're popular. Imagine if in Melee they had placed Toon Link instead of normal Link to promote the upcoming Wind Waker? The result would have been the same.

What I remember about its development is a few things;

-They're a no-name company and it wasn't too easy to get stuff. This isn't surprising. They were in a bad position in this case.
-They had to use Evil Cole if they wanted Cole at all.
-When asking for Cloud, they were told Lightning or nothing. They went with nothing.

If you think about it for companies, with a no-name developer, they'd rather put in their latest version of the character to advertise their own games than give the most iconic version. I mean, they aren't going to trust a no-name. Sakurai actually made a name with Smash 64 itself before even being approached to have Sonic and Snake in Melee. Before Sonic ever had a Nintendo appearance, he was asked by Yuji Naka to be put in. Sakurai had a lot of time to earn that trust. Besides the Kirby games, he made a pretty good crossover that did well enough that people think he can pull it off again. For no-name companies, there's no way to trust them at all. Sony already wouldn't be able to give them much either, and can you blame them? The guys were new. And using your mascots. Trust is earned, not given out on a whim. If they had tried to make something else, like a fun fighting game that was decent first, it'd be less of an issue. There was actual good things, like them having a decent set of characters despite missing some 3rd parties. A lot of it was luck on their end they even got that much.

This is also why I'm not that surprised Spyro and Crash weren't in. These companies wouldn't want their characters tarnished by being in a bad game. Especially a game focused on All-Stars. If it was a racing game, it wouldn't be as big of a deal because it has less of a focus on the All-Star factor in some cases. And sometimes it does focus on that.

I'd sad too, cause the game had potential. I mean, I'd have taken Lightning just to have a FF character in, a franchise that definitely is important to the PlayStation as well. It'd have been great if Crash and Spyro was in there too(though I don't think the Skylanders Spyro version was out yet? If it was, that'd have been fine because it's still freaking Spyro). Likewise, I'm just glad Dante was in there in some way. It's not the best version, but it's still the character nonetheless. I'm happy it even had some good characters on the rosters overall. For a no-name developer, they got some impressive options in the end.

Hmm, interesting. I wasn't aware of some of those things. Yikes, must've been rough on them. There were some cool choices in the end, like Heihachi, Parappa and Kat. I hope they get another chance, without being forced to do bad shill picks this time.

 

[Predictabo]

But why would they pick Mai Shiranui over Terry, Kyo or even Iori?

The only way Mai would be picked over any SNK character is if it's a Sakurai/Nintendo pick because they do not consider her a main character, even in KoF the main character of her team is King.

 

[IsmaR]

RE: Mai discussion over the last few pages, I'm going to second the above mod warning.

Touching base on a character/discussion is fine. Bringing up half a page-length's worth of arguments about sexualization/porn/anything that is knowingly crossing the line stated in the site TOS (you can have your opinions on what you want, we draw the family-friendly line at the same place Smash does) will be warned/treated as not only off topic, but inappropriate (this especially goes for images/videos/offsite links to articles/web pages with access to the aforementioned). This goes for you especially, ManlySpirit.

I'll say it is possible to be a fan of the character and not have it entirely revolve around jiggle physics. I wouldn't be opposed to the idea, but I'm not expecting them to jump through hoops to make it a reality.

 

[Deleted member]

Spoiler: Extremely huge post

Part 2: Is Mai too sexy for Smash?

Maybe?

So, here's what Mai looks like in her most modern design, and her most recent appearance in SNK Heroines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc7qwim11UU

This video is important, cause you can see what she looks on her backside, which is one of the potentially more "problematic" areas of her outfit. In most fighting games this wouldn't be an issue, but Smash has a camera you can move around on pause, and this is probably why characters see more censorship than they otherwise would. You can't have Bayonetta stripping down to her birthday suit, if you can pause the game at any point, and move the camera into any location. Stuff like this would elevate the rating beyond E or T, even if that was never the intention of the devs.

So, looking at Mai's outfit, would it have to be altered. I'd argue that in Japan, perhaps not. Mai has been in numerous games all across Asia, shown from numerous different angles, and her level of sexuality has never ever been a point of controversy. It really comes down to CERO ratings, and how they would view her inclusion as a character, but also, whether or not they'd even rate a DLC character or not. Oppossum brought up that the ESRB does, but, while they state that they do, they often don't as they're too lazy. Something like Joker's gun would have already elevated Smash's rating to T in the USA, as realistic guns are part of what make games go from E to T. So realistically, it's possible they wouldn't bother to rerate Smash over Mai, unless a massive controversy kicked up as a result of her inclusion which brings the subject to their attention.

But let's assume that Mai would have to be altered in order to be in Smash.

Point no.1, would it be NA only, or Worldwide?

Again, I don't think Mai would see censorship in Asia, it really comes down to Nintendo's priorities. Mai's outfit is actually fairly traditional Japanese garb, or at least, it takes a lot of inspiration from it. Thus, given the cultural significance, it's not something that's really seen as "obscene." It's sexual in nature, yes, because that's how Mai portrays herself, but it's not exactly something that would be seen as objectionable in Japan. As I've already pointed out before, far sexier and more "ecchi" content finds itself on the pages of stuff like Shounen Jump ALL the time. Japan's standards for sexuality are much different than the west. The human body is not something that you should be ashamed of, with public bathing still being rather common to this day (yes, even mixed), and beauty as a whole being something that's highly valued all across Asia, like far more than in the west. Really, what Japan takes more offense to is "obscenity" so, depictions of sexual intercourse, or excessive intimacy, etc... So stuff that's a LITTLE more risque is not entirely out of the question for being in Japanese media. I think Mai as a whole, through rather borderline, would ultimately make it by untouched just fine, especially since she's DLC and not base game. Especially since Nintendo's stance toward this sort of stuff has seen a noticeable shift in recent times, likely due to being under new leadership. I think Nintendo has realized that they can no longer be "just the kids" company, and have thus shifted their focus to include numerous different audiences. Thus, while arguments like Bayonetta (Bayonetta btw being far brazen with her sexuality than Mai), Palutena, Corrin, and Tharja get brought up (wasn't she only removed in the west? iirc, she was still intact in Japan), we have to consider that these are different times for the company, so rules that might have applied a while back, seemed to have relaxed significantly.

The west however...

So, if Mai sees censorship, it would undoubtedly be BECAUSE of the west and its sensibilities, most notably the USA. I personally DO NOT agree with this in the slightest. I think people should just learn to deal with it, but what can you do. So with that in mind, I should point out that Mai is no stranger to being censored in her western depictions already anyway. Thus, if Mai would see censorship, it wouldn't exactly be out of the question for her to have two region exclusive outfits. Her normal untouched look for Asia and most of the world, and a slightly modified version for her North American release. So, what would that look like?

Spoiler: Finally, the part you've been waiting for.

So I made some edits to show how Mai's outfit could be modified to be much more acceptable for western sencibilities, while still keeping the core of the character intact. Her original two sprites from KoFXIII are at the top, and one of her older sprites is on the bottom of the first image. I've included an example of past censorship for reference.

So, there are three major areas of Mai's design that could be a problem in terms of elevating the games rating:
Her cleavage.
Her Bum, with underwear that's thonglike, and only covered by some ribbon ties.
And her boob jiggle.

So, in the second image I've included modifications I made to the sprites of her art, as well as examples of official art that show her chest has been more covered up in past official depictions. Moreover, the two poses from XIII are what would probably be Mai's Taunt and Idle pose should she be added. The idle pose being important, cause it's how you're gonna see her 80% of the time. The two major changes I made is give her wider underwear, and cover up her cleavage. I think BECAUSE of the camera, the change to her bottoms is something that might be necessary, and if she sees a change, it'd be the sort of thing you would see happen. It's in the same tier as "Bayonetta no longer gets naked during Wicked Weaves.

With that in mind, the question now being, "is this enough?" I argue, most likely. It puts Mai on Lyn territory, which is why I included the 3rd image. Lyn is present in Smash as an AT, and hasn't been modified at all from her original design. You can see in the image I posted that Lyn and Mai are both showing the same amount of thigh, both wearing comparatively similar dresses. If this is still not enough, then it would be reasonable to add a short back-flap to Mai's dress so her backside isn't constantly exposed. Minor changes, the design is still intact. It's not like Mai is a stranger to outfit modifications, her original depictions her clothing be far more flimsy than her most modern versions.

So, what about her boob jiggle? I think more than her outfit, this is the one that causes more problems overall. I don't think you can remove it outright, not at all. It's too much of a defining character trait to be done away with, with her being one of the very first characters ever to feature "jiggle physics" but it can be toned down overall I think. How much is enough though? and how much is too much? Let's also not forget that Sakurai is a real stickler for details, and being faithful to a character's original design and concept, so, if Sakurai would feel that he wouldn't be able to add Mai without ruining her character while still adhering to Nintedo's standards, then she's simply not getting added. And that's why I agree in part with what Schol says. It's not a point I ever debated, it's an obstacle for her of course, but it doesn't seal her fate. The real question is "how much is Nintendo willing to push the envelope with her." It's really an argument not so different from the likes of Doomguy though for example. Just replace the topic of point with Violence. How much removal is too much and just desecrates the core value of the character? Mai IS a sex symbol. Her sexuality is a CORE element of her character, so it can't be outright removed, not at all. There'd be no point to adding the character if she can't have that to at least some desgree. But like I said, it doesn't seal her fate. I think I've proven that the character COULD be modified enough to be more acceptable for specific audiences while still keepin her key features still intact. However, the specifics of this situation fall beyond our knowledge or capacity to know for sure. Additionally, there are other circumstances that would get in the way of Mai. The entire crux of this argument is merely that she's a character that would fly in out of left field because she's not often discussed or requested by Smash fans. That's all I;ve always been pointing. Mai is a gaming icon, and significantly more popular than any of you seem to be aware that she is. She's a logical pick for the roster that's flying under everyone's radars, but... like with everyone else, we never know who we might get. She's got a solid shot, far higher than many other characters mentioned, but much like other popular icons, her spot on the roster is not guaranteed.

That said, if she DOES show up on the roster, I totally called it.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Just want to say because I'm astonished at the amount of neo-puritanism I'm seeing that I fully support Mai Shiranui.
As someone who doesn't know anything about KoF, I still knew about her. And I had never heard of Terry Mc-Dull or Kyo Prettyboy #16351 before.
I think a side character getting added before a series' main character is incredibly unlikely to happen, but in this case I'd be glad if it did.

Long live fan-service!

You really thought I'd let that Kyo slander fly under the radar, huh?

At least my favourite prettyboy #16351 has more of a chance to get in because he at least has costumes that can stay true to the character don't need to be toned down for the sake of ratings.

Long live CERO!


In all seriousness, Kyo needs to be in before Mai, the latter already has been in a crossover fighting game along with Geese, Terry Iori and Kula in other games, so Kyo needs his time to be in Smash. Also helps that he's the MC so...

 

[Deleted member]

RE: Mai discussion over the last few pages, I'm going to second the above mod warning.

Touching base on a character/discussion is fine. Bringing up half a page-length's worth of arguments about sexualization/porn/anything that is knowingly crossing the line stated in the site TOS (you can have your opinions on what you want, we draw the family-friendly line at the same place Smash does) will be warned/treated as not only off topic, but inappropriate (this especially goes for images/videos/offsite links to articles/web pages with access to the aforementioned). This goes for you especially, ManlySpirit.

I'll say it is possible to be a fan of the character and not have it entirely revolve around jiggle physics. I wouldn't be opposed to the idea, but I'm not expecting them to jump through hoops to make it a reality.

That's because they're two different topics.

If you're gonna argue that a character could see censorship given past precedent in the game, that's fair game and a totally valid argument. If you're gonna claim that a country should change its cultural standards to suit your personal sensibilities and that a character isn't appropriate for the game due to your individual moral standards, then that's an entirely different argument, and one that shouldn't have been brought up in the first place, moreover, should never have shifted into calling out and blatantly misrepresenting the cultural problems of a nation you've likely never even visited over dumb crap you heard on the internet in the first place. People need to learn to separate their own personal biases, values, and opinions from objective arguments. Just because one person or a group of people see Japan's cultural values as objectionable, doesn't make it right for them to use that as a point of contention when discussing ANY topic in regarding popular media really. Because the topic will inevitably fall into what's deemed as morally right and wrong within differing cultural standards.

Saying that "this character isn't appropriate because sexualizing ADULT women is immoral" is a dumb ****ing argument that never should have been brought up in the first place, and has every right being called out. If you don't want the thread going off topic, then please call out the problem at the root, with people citing personal values as objective facts, rather than just singling me out.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Because as had been said multiple times now, Mai is SNK’s most popular character, and company mascot.

The question, are you saying that Mai's SNK's current company mascot or am I interpreting that wrong.

 

[osby]

In all seriousness, Kyo needs to be in before Mai, the latter already has been in a crossover fighting game along with Geese, Terry Iori and Kula in other games, so Kyo needs his time to be in Smash. Also helps that he's the MC so...

While I don't have any strong opinions about the subject, I don't think a character being in more crossovers makes them a worse choice. If that was the case, we never should've gotten Ryu.

 

[Ornl]

Mai Shiranui isn't an adult woman in Japan (the age of majority is 20).

 

[Flyboy]

Terry is the most recognizable SNK character and mascot.

Mai is one of their most iconic characters and is very popular.

Nakoruru is more popular overseas, though I admit I didn't even know that until rumors of her being a pass character started popping up. She has a charity named after her and everything.

Marco and Fio would be my favorite SNK picks, though Terry is just as cool.

I've said in the past I feel that Mai could be picked over Terry because internationally she is absolutely as well-known as Terry. As for toning down her sexual elements, that isn't an unreasonable expectation based on past precedent with Corrin and Bayo. However, she's had variants of her outfit that are more practical. If she were to get in, it's expected that she would be toned down, no different than if Travis Touchdown or Doomguy were to get in, and that's not really a bad thing.

The big thing to take from the conversation in my eyes is that with Nintendo trying once again to break into China and KOF's popularity in Latin America, an SNK rep is slept on.

That said, Terry is more uniformly popular. Not saying Mai isn't, she's just not the undisputed SNK rep people are making her out to be.

Anyway the best KOF rep would be King.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

While I don't have any strong opinions about the subject, I don't think a character being in more crossovers makes them a worse choice. If that was the case, we never should've gotten Ryu.

I don't think it does either but I still personally would rather see someone (Kyo) not named Geese, Terry, Iori, Mai, and Kula in b/c they've already crossed over into other fighting games; keep Mai in DoA5LR and DoA6 tbh.

 

[Deleted member]

The question, are you saying that Mai's SNK's current company mascot or am I interpreting that wrong.

Well, if we're gonna argue semantics, how are you gonna define mascot?

I've cited numerous examples of her being labeled as SNK's most important and prominent character, but even if we go outside of that, she's the most popular by a large margin all around the world (if we use G-Trends as a source), has the most merch, and has the highest amount of guest appearances and crossovers. Considering she still has the most popularity, and still sees the highest amount of crossovers to this day, I'd say it's a fair argument.

But you're free to define the terms.

Mai Shiranui isn't an adult woman in Japan (the age of majority is 20).

No, AoC is 13, but that refers to minor consenting to other minors. You're considered a minor if you're under 18. You're considered an adult at 18 in Japan.

In Japan, the Japanese Penal Code sets a minimal age of consent of 13 regardless of gender or sexual orientation.[46] However, the Children Welfare Act chapter 34 forbids any act of "fornication" (淫行) with children (here defined as anyone under 18 years of age)[47] with prefectures and districts specifying further details in (largely similar) "obscenity ordinances" (淫行条例) like adding exemptions for sex in the context of a sincere romantic relationship (typically determined by parental approval).[48]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Asia

I wonder if I'll get hit with another warning, despite addressing a rather stupid point that is blatantly false and has NO research whatsoever.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Well, if we're gonna argue semantics, how are you gonna define mascot?

I've cited numerous examples of her being labeled as SNK's most important and prominent character, but even if we go outside of that, she's the most popular by a large margin all around the world (if we use G-Trends as a source), has the most merch, and has the highest amount of guest appearances and crossovers. Considering she still has the most popularity, and still sees the highest amount of crossovers to this day, I'd say it's a fair argument.

But you're free to define the terms.

???

We're not arguing anything, it really was just a yes or no question of if you considered Mai to be SNK's >current< mascot or not, but I'll take your answer as a yes.

 

[Deleted member]

???

We're not arguing anything, it really was just a yes or no question of if you considered Mai to be SNK's >current< mascot or not, but I'll take your answer as a yes.

I'm sorry man, I'm just on edge because this entire topic has become a lot more obnoxious and time wasting on here than I ever intended it to be. Every single post I make I feel as I have to defend a specific point from attack, and I've gone in circles again and again and again to prove the exact same points again and again and again.

Like, I don't even WANT Mai. Nor am I a "fan" of the character. I think she's cool and all, and plays well in KoF, but I've never really much cared for her in any meaningful way as I've got more experience with the ASW fighters than the SNK ones. Like, I genuinely don't care who gets in because I already have what I want, and couldn't possibly ask for more. The roster could literally end with Banjo, and I'd be 100% satisfied. I only came in here to make an observation because I feel she'd be a good fit for the remaining roster slots, and she doesn't often get talked about, while I see Nakoruru, and more recently Kasumi getting put on rosters, and it boggles my mind that those characters are discussed, when the ACTUALLY iconic one gets thrown under the rug. I merely came in to make an observation, and expected to get some "oh yeah, that's a really good point, I never thought of that," and then dropping the topic, like I did when I posted this idea to other local friends over Line, and in other Smash discussion circles, like Ultimate Hell over on FB, and /v/. Instead, I've had to get more involved with learning about the character than I ever really intended, in order to defend tons of attacks on the original points I made to offer "concrete proof" because people here can't separate their own opinions and wishes from predictions. It's like, people got riled up over the mention of Mai cause they don't wanna see her either cause a) they'd prefer a different SNK character, or b) they find her design objectionable/innappropriate/offensive, and don't wanna see her as it doesn't adhere to their own individual values. It's genuinely been tiresome to go so in depth with all this, and in hindsight I could have (and should have) been doing more productive things with my time.

I think I've said all I had to on the character, if people wanna keep going in circles, that's cool. I forgot how these threads were, and how bad people often were at separating opinion from fact, and then on top of that, get singled out for defending my points against blatantly false and misinformed arguments.

I only ever wanted to hear people's opinions on an observation, but instead saw a lot of pushback and was demanded more proof on what SHOULD HAVE BEEN self-evident with just a couple minutes of research. But people on here only see what they wanna see.

 

[TheGuv]

Honestly, it's hard to say what newcomers we'll get in Smash 6.


We're saying ARMS and Astral Chain now, but whos saying that in 2026 there's not a more popular IP like Splatoon that makes ARMS and Astral Chain old news?

 

[Wunderwaft]

Honestly, it's hard to say what newcomers we'll get in Smash 6.


We're saying ARMS and Astral Chain now, but whos saying that in 2026 there's not a more popular IP like Splatoon that makes ARMS and Astral Chain old news?

It's hard to predict what will be popular and will be relevant five years from now. Who knows? Maybe Astral Chain or ARMS might not be very successful and Nintendo would drop them. Multiple variables and possibilities exist, we can't predict who will get in the next Smash game until the next generation console arrives. I believe that is the best time to start speculating for the next game because the project plan for Smash 6 would have most likely been finalized by that point, which means we can be more accurate with our predictions since we'd know how the gaming landscape would look like.

 

[TheGuv]

It's hard to predict what will be popular and will be relevant five years from now. Who knows? Maybe Astral Chain or ARMS might not be very successful and Nintendo would drop them. Multiple variables and possibilities exist, we can't predict who will get in the next Smash game until the next generation console arrives. I believe that is the best time to start speculating for the next game because the project plan for Smash 6 would have most likely been finalized by that point, which means we can more be more accurate with our predictions since we'd know how the gaming landscape would look like.

Yeah, and god knows when the switch will get a sucessor it will probably be several years from now.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Astral Chain ends up as an assist trophy.

 

[KingBroly]

How have I not seen it before? It just hit me. What new Zelda rep with a consistent design that's appeared in multiple games be a newcomer for Smash Bros.? It's so obvious. The answer...is Dampe.

 

[Zem-raj]

How have I not seen it before? It just hit me. What new Zelda rep with a consistent design that's appeared in multiple games be a newcomer for Smash Bros.? It's so obvious. The answer...is Dampe.

"DAMPE BURIES THE COMPETITION!"

XD

 

[Deleted member]

How would you feel if we entered a timeline where these are the first four Fighter Pass characters....

And your most wanted took the last spot?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

How would you feel if we entered a timeline where these are the first four Fighter Pass characters....
View attachment 229729
And your most wanted took the last spot?

Hey, as long as I get Elma

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Spoiler: Somewhat large post

To me there’s really no point in talking Smash 6 because we have no idea what that game is going to be like right now. There’s really no time frame to expect it after a game like Ultimate, and I personally am not hyped by the idea of a new Smash that cuts significant amounts of content.

That’s the only thing I kind of expect.
—
With Mai:

After some discussion here and with friends, I will admit that I underestimated how much of an icon she is.

However, I still would contend that her design would get in the way. Considering that her iconic design (which has evidently been used and expanded upon in other fighting games for other characters) is just simply a part of the character, I wouldn’t be able to see Sakurai, a man who wants the most “true to character” representation in Smash, making an original design to make her unrecognizable.

In previous instances of DLC characters in Smash, far less has been censored. For two examples, we have FemCorrin with the thigh openings covered up, as well as Bayonetta being far less revealing than her home game. I’d say the problem isn’t “being sexy”. Somebody can be sexy with their clothes on and hardly revealing anything. Otherwise, Bowser, K.Rool, Ridley, DK, Yoshi and various Pokémon would automatically the sexist...not to say they aren’t.

In addition, the Tharja trophy. I don’t exactly remember what it was supposed to look like, but the character itself has always had a design that would have potential to see this issue.

Lastly, as @ManlySpirit mentioned, the camera angling is something changed over time I believe to stem the “inappropriate” shifting of the camera. Peach used to have underwear, but now it’s a black void. It’s specifically made difficult for anyone to zoom in on any particular section of a body in the game, especially those considered not appropriate. This is simply another example of the development team taking steps to reduce this sort of content in the game.

Smash is unique in that it’s a game that targets everyone with each added character. It’s not just fans of the game they come from, but fans, young and old, who may want to try out their game when they aren’t playing Smash. Sakurai has done this with each playable character arguably without sex appeal or violence being a focal point of their character.

If the argument supporting Mai is that we’re just going to have to “wait and see” it’s not wrong to say that. It could be that the revealing aspects of Mai’s costumes won’t matter. However, given the precedent of Smash as a series, especially with DLC characters, I see it as a major hurdle that could very well stonewall her addition.it would take significant edits to an iconic design to make it work, which is why I simply do not see it happening.

This has nothing to do with her popularity or being a fighting icon (at least in the states, not at the same level of Ryu or Chun-Li, but worldwide is different for sure), but more so the design. There is likely more scrutiny placed upon playable character design than that of spirits or Assist Trophies, as the Fighters are what sell the game more than anything else.

Verde Coeden Scalesworth or IsmaR I apologize for the wall’o text. Feel free to spoiler box it if needed.

 

[Door Key Pig]

How would you feel if we entered a timeline where these are the first four Fighter Pass characters....
View attachment 229729
And your most wanted took the last spot?

We'd have too Crashes lol. Or a Rhythm character too. Either way I'd be extremely satisfied.

TBH, it's this exact reason why i'm holding out hope (foolishly) for Advance Wars DLC. Given it's AT removal (seemingly out of the blue as it was present in both Brawl & Smash 4) and it's Spirts being helluva weird, not reflecting the main characters.

The conspiracy theorist in me believes Max, Sami, and Nell had Spirits that were held off for a potential Challenger Pack (be it Andy or Sami being playable). In that scenario, Andy would use his AW1 artwork for his Fighter Spirit independent from his Primary Spirit that uses his AW2 one. Of course, this only happens with an AW revival. Without it, there's a 0% chance of it happening. I'm well aware of the ramifications here.

The thing is though, didn't they remove a couple ATs with 2D sprite presence? Advance Wars, Lakitu and Spikies, Excitebiker still wasn't there?