Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Cutie Gwen]

Let's be honest, it wouldn't just be the Waluigi fans judging by how many people whined about ATs here and that Assist Alliance garbage

 

[Ben Holt]

To be honest I don't think I've ever seen a Waluigi fan act "feral" or bad in any way. When Waluigi got AT'd during the EVERYONE IS HERE trailer I just kinda remember people making a bunch of memes over it.

Not that I doubt there were Waluigi fans that acted/act hostile, like how any fanbase will have its dip****s.

I've been a fan of Waluigi and Toad since Brawl.
And as much as I love Geno, it does put a bad taste in my mouth that a one-off Mario character seems to be next in line over the Mushroom Kingdom OGs.
But we live in the timeline where Piranha Plant got in before Toad. I'd be salty if I didn't absolutely love playing as the Plant.

 

[ZelDan]

I've been a fan of Waluigi and Toad since Brawl.
And as much as I love Geno, it does put a bad taste in my mouth that a one-off Mario character seems to be next in line over the Mushroom Kingdom OGs.
But we live in the timeline where Piranha Plant got in before Toad. I'd be salty if I didn't absolutely love playing as the Plant.

Eh, who's to say Geno's next in line, or in line at all? I could definitely see Waluigi getting in over Geno just because he likely has way more popularity outside the Smash bubble, and maybe even within in it.

 

[Idon]

You know, this becomes hilarious in a dark way as it means you sick a ****ing police dog thing to brutalize someone for whiffing. Press B to participate in police brutality looking ass

Well there is a police dog legion, and unlike regular dogs it can shoot energy blasts.

Though if you're looking for brutality, I'm sure there's enough baton whacking and kicking for you to get your fill.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Eh, who's to say Geno's next in line, or in line at all? I could definitely see Waluigi getting in over Geno just because he likely has way more popularity outside the Smash bubble, and maybe even within in it.

I don't see Geno getting opinion pieces in mainstream news media like Waluigi, so that is an incredibly modest 'likely'

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There were two people who went crazy over the Waluigi AT in Ultimate. They are pretty much outliers and fools. Fans are completely unique and one fan isn't like another.

Plus, at least they have a ton of great fans as is. It honestly looks like it'd go really damn well if Spring Man got a second role as playable. People will have a ton of new hope as is.

 

[Knight Dude]

Bury?

Nah. Area Eater destroys a row of the arena to bring people closer to you, think The Hand from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. Of course a move that can do that in a Fighting game might be harder to implement physically destroying the stage. But the move having a pretty generous pulling in effect should be fine.

To be honest I don't think I've ever seen a Waluigi fan act "feral" or bad in any way. When Waluigi got AT'd during the EVERYONE IS HERE trailer I just kinda remember people making a bunch of memes over it.

Not that I doubt there were Waluigi fans that acted/act hostile, like how any fanbase will have its dip****s.

There's always ****tier people and cool people in any fan group. Though yeah, Waluigi getting AT status again did spark mild disappointment and memes from most people. There were only a few outright hostile people by comparison, and I personally didn't run into too many of them myself.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t upset when I saw the Isaac Assist. Mostly because I feel like he has been shafted for years now, especially in Brawl with his games doing VERY well on GBA, despite that he was an Assist. In Ultimate the Ballot was a big deal and a lot of Isaac fans came together to put their votes in and the votes were loud enough to get noticed but only warranted him an Assist Trophy which kind of gets me when Pokémon always gets free reign as a character and Piranha Plant was shown 3 Seconds later.

Revealing all that right there in that direct was just tone deaf to say the least. Even still I’ve kind of kept it to myself hoping against hope that the Assists disconfirmation rule would be broken, hopefully by Isaac, but if Spring Man has to be the one then I’m on board. But yeah, I can honestly see where Waluigi fans come from when they say that they’re character gets shafted.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t upset when I saw the Isaac Assist. Mostly because I feel like he has been shafted for years now, especially in Brawl with his games doing VERY well on GBA, despite that he was an Assist. In Ultimate the Ballot was a big deal and a lot of Isaac fans came together to put their votes in and the votes were loud enough to get noticed but only warranted him an Assist Trophy which kind of gets me when Pokémon always gets free reign as a character and Piranha Plant was shown 3 Seconds later.

Revealing all that right there in that direct was just tone deaf to say the least. Even still I’ve kind of kept it to myself hoping against hope that the Assists disconfirmation rule would be broken, hopefully by Isaac, but if Spring Man has to be the one then I’m on board. But yeah, I can honestly see where Waluigi fans come from when they say that they’re character gets shafted.

It's worth noting that Golden Sun got a pretty huge jump in content and at least a Mii costume was gotten. So it clearly did matter overall with the ballot.

It just didn't get what people wanted. But yeah, the timing was godawful. Isaac and Shadow should've been early AT reveals. Ashley at least got a reasonably early one. Hell, Skull Kid didn't even get a proper reveal. Ouch.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Camelot will die eventually and the only thing people will remember them for is waluigi

 

[Ben Holt]

It's worth noting that Golden Sun got a pretty huge jump in content and at least a Mii costume was gotten. So it clearly did matter overall with the ballot.

It just didn't get what people wanted. But yeah, the timing was godawful. Isaac and Shadow should've been early AT reveals. Ashley at least got a reasonably early one. Hell, Skull Kid didn't even get a proper reveal. Ouch.

What's worse is that Knuckles and The Moon were revealed as early Assist Trophies, which made Shadow and Skull Kid fans scratch their heads.
Hell, almost everyone was CONVINCED that Shadow and Ken were shoe-ins for Echo Fighters, but only Ken came to fruition.

 

[Hinata]

What's worse is that Knuckles and The Moon were revealed as early Assist Trophies, which made Shadow and Skull Kid fans scratch their heads.
Hell, almost everyone was CONVINCED that Shadow and Ken were shoe-ins for Echo Fighters, but only Ken came to fruition.

There was a dude in one of my Discord servers who was convinced beyond all else that Shadow was an absolute lock for an Echo Fighter. He was so sure of himself, when Shadow was revealed as an Assist Trophy, he got so angry he straight up accused Sakurai of "lying to him" and "leading him on", as if Sakurai had actually implied at any point that Shadow was going to be an Echo Fighter.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What's worse is that Knuckles and The Moon were revealed as early Assist Trophies, which made Shadow and Skull Kid fans scratch their heads.
Hell, almost everyone was CONVINCED that Shadow and Ken were shoe-ins for Echo Fighters, but only Ken came to fruition.

Who knows why Shadow of all characters didn't become playable. Was it cause he wasn't being used as much as before? He had very small roles by that point, being sometimes a sub-boss at most. He was awful in the Sonic Boom series, though a decent showing in Sonic Forces, at least.

Skull Kid was the strange one too, but I don't think he was heavily on the table either way. Even with the Moon being an AT, the Zelda franchise has had the Triforce trio purely. We were still going to get that during Brawl if they had enough time to finish Toon Zelda and Toon Sheik(I originally thought they'd turn Toon Sheik into Tetra, but that might be more work to make an all new moveset from compared to a different model being created), so I didn't have much hope for anyone else beyond those. I still root for Tingle and Oracle Impa, though~

 

[Ben Holt]

There was a dude in one of my Discord servers who was convinced beyond all else that Shadow was an absolute lock for an Echo Fighter. He was so sure of himself, when Shadow was revealed as an Assist Trophy, he got so angry he straight up accused Sakurai of "lying to him" and "leading him on", as if Sakurai had actually implied at any point that Shadow was going to be an Echo Fighter.

I mean, I can't pretend that he's not an obvious pick. But we didn't get Ms. Pac-Man either, who's almost as iconic as Pac-Man himself.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

I mean, I can't pretend that he's not an obvious pick. But we didn't get Ms. Pac-Man either, who's almost as iconic as Pac-Man himself.

She has a reason atleast due to ATgames sleaziness

Shadow is pretty bizzare

 

[Koopaul]

Shadow made so much sense as an echo fighter it's crazy. However, Ms. Pac-Man has some real legal hullabaloo going on.

 

[Ben Holt]

Who knows why Shadow of all characters didn't become playable. Was it cause he wasn't being used as much as before? He had very small roles by that point, being sometimes a sub-boss at most. He was awful in the Sonic Boom series, though a decent showing in Sonic Forces, at least.

Eh....
Sega on many occasions has seemed to imply that Shadow is the Sonic's Luigi. In the Olympic Games, Shadow was Luigi's counterpart, not Tails.
And in Sonic Boom (which was out during Smash Ultimate's planning phase) flat out said it:

 

[Shroob]

There were two people who went crazy over the Waluigi AT in Ultimate. They are pretty much outliers and fools. Fans are completely unique and one fan isn't like another.

Plus, at least they have a ton of great fans as is. It honestly looks like it'd go really damn well if Spring Man got a second role as playable. People will have a ton of new hope as is.

It's not fair to judge an entire fanbase over a small handful, but the general populace will do so anyway, because those who speak the loudest are the first to draw attention to themselves, and leave a lasting impression in people's minds.


It's the old adage of, it only takes a few bad eggs to spoil the bunch.



Is it fair? Of course not, there are plenty of civilized Waluigi fans, but that loud minority is what stuck in people's minds, and it'll continue sticking until that notion is challenged.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's not fair to judge an entire fanbase over a small handful, but the general populace will do so anyway, because those who speak the loudest are the first to draw attention to themselves, and leave a lasting impression in people's minds.


It's the old adage of, it only takes a few bad eggs to spoil the bunch.



Is it fair? Of course not, there are plenty of civilized Waluigi fans, but that loud minority is what stuck in people's minds, and it'll continue sticking until that notion is challenged.

I mean, that's my point entirely?

It's unfortunate too. Some fanbases are more toxic than others though. With more toxic members. Nonetheless, it is what it is.

Especially as no Smash game can have every possible character people want. XD ...Well, M.U.G.E.N. Smash Bros. aside?

 

[Shroob]

I mean, that's my point entirely?

It's unfortunate too. Some fanbases are more toxic than others though. With more toxic members. Nonetheless, it is what it is.

Especially as no Smash game can have every possible character people want. XD ...Well, M.U.G.E.N. Smash Bros. aside?

Bias also plays a heavy role in all this. It's like you say, there are indeed fanbases more toxic than the Waluigi fanbase.


I myself find the Geno fanbase particularly toxic, though I also have to admit that's also because I'm judging it from my exposure on this website specifically. Is it necessarily fair to judge the WHOLE Geno fanbase because the thread here drops into screaming manchild fits the minute someone looks at them funny? No, of course not, but, bias and exposure and all that.


At the end of the day, sucks the Waluigi fanbase got marred by a couple douchebags but, what's done is done, really.

 

[Knight Dude]

Shadow made so much sense as an echo fighter it's crazy. However, Ms. Pac-Man has some real legal hullabaloo going on.

Well, even Echo Fighters can get but so many in before the game has to get released. I think Protoman would also fall into the category of making perfect sense like Ken.

If I had to guess, I would say Shadow's not only a little less popular than he was in the 2000's, but SEGA didn't give out a ton of attention to many characters outside of Sonic and Tails in most recent entries, barring Mania. Then again, Shadow was DLC in Forces, so I dunno if Sega's shift in direction meant anything for him Tails and Knuckles.

 

[7NATOR]

As an ultimate Shadow Supporter, I feel the duty to comment on this discussion

There are a few things that could have kept Shadow from being Playable (as an echo)

-He's very controversial. While Shadow is the 2nd most Popular Sonic character, i think he's also hated by alot of people, which if you compare to Tails and Knuckles don't get that much hate. also keep in mind that the Sonic Fanbase is torn between Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, and Eggman on who should be the 2nd Sonic Character.

-He was never meant to be an echo. I subscribe to this idea. while I did mention above he was Controversial , i think if they wanted to put in Shadow as an echo to get that 2nd Sonic fighter easily, then they would have. Same thing with Dixie for me. Both these 2 are popular. I think Sega or Sakurai just felt echo Shadow wasn't the way to go, and that him as an Assist is a better way to represent him. It's not like with Dark Samus who's probably going to be irrelevant for all time and was always overshadowed by Ridley, or like Chrom who Sakurai stated would have been too similar to Marth/Ike. Shadow actually has some neat unique potential with Chaos Control and he will definitely be relevant and requested for awhile. There's a reason i Only support unique Shadow and not Echo Shadow.

-Just simply lack of Priority. It happens to alot of characters, popular characters too.

-Sega might be more strict than we think, I don't know about this. On the one hand They may of had something to do with Shadow being used sparingly in Sonic Boom (or maybe that was all on the writers), but Lego Dimmensions Sonic Level was able to get away with making a gun on Shadow using Guns, so i don't know about this. Then again Smash is one of the biggest showcase for Video game characters so maybe they might be more strict future Sonic characters and how they act.

While I'm glad Shadow isn't an echo, I'm still kinda sad he ain't playable and if they are not gonna make him Playable, can they at least make a Shadow Mii Gunner outift?

 

[GoodGrief741]

I don't see Geno getting opinion pieces in mainstream news media like Waluigi, so that is an incredibly modest 'likely'

I've seen quite a few, at least, much too mainstream for me to have expected Geno to be name-dropped. Quite the surprise to see.

 

[Cosmic77]

Those of you who are complaining about the amount of time it took for your favorite characters to be revealed as ATs in Ultimate have clearly forgotten the amount of time it took to outright confirm Ridley as a boss in Smash 4.

He was first hinted back in August 2013 alongside Pyrosphere, and we finally got our answer in a presentation a mere 21 days before the launch of the Wii U version. That was October 31, 2014.

 

[Ben Holt]

Those of you who are complaining about the amount of time it took for your favorite characters to be revealed as ATs in Ultimate have clearly forgotten the amount of time it took to outright confirm Ridley as a boss in Smash 4.

He was first hinted back in August 2013 alongside Pyrosphere, and we finally got our answer in a presentation a mere 21 days before the launch of the Wii U version. That was October 31, 2014.

To be fair, I was dumb to not take Sakurai at his initial word that Ridley was a boss.

 

[Gribbo]

Those of you who are complaining about the amount of time it took for your favorite characters to be revealed as ATs in Ultimate have clearly forgotten the amount of time it took to outright confirm Ridley as a boss in Smash 4.

He was first hinted back in August 2013 alongside Pyrosphere, and we finally got our answer in a presentation a mere 21 days before the launch of the Wii U version. That was October 31, 2014.

The direct in Spring all but confirmed it though, you had to be in some serious denial to think he wasn't a boss.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To be fair, I was dumb to not take Sakurai at his initial word that Ridley was a boss.

Not exactly. His stage hazard role was unique, but we also have to remember that people were just introduced to the idea characters could be a part of the stage and playable(just not literally at the same time. This did not disconfirm Ridley as playable. This just made it clear he definitely has a hazard role).

It was clear he was a hazard, yes(during the "other bosses will appear segment, significantly after the Pyrosphere got previewed on Miiverse). What it wasn't clear was if he couldn't be playable or not. Toon Link already showed a character could be playable and be part of a stage. We also learned hazards could be disabled under certain situations, so Ridley being playable would disable the hazard. It made sense to think that was a possibility.

Pretty much we knew a bit earlier he was a hazard, but we had no way to know if he definitely playable or not till the 3DS version released. Wii U version just clarified his role, cause the 3DS version did not have Pyrosphere.

 

[Ben Holt]

Not exactly. His stage hazard role was unique, but we also have to remember that people were just introduced to the idea characters could be a part of the stage and playable(just not literally at the same time. This did not disconfirm Ridley as playable. This just made it clear he definitely has a hazard role).

It was clear he was a hazard, yes(during the "other bosses will appear segment, significantly after the Pyrosphere got previewed on Miiverse). What it wasn't clear was if he couldn't be playable or not. Toon Link already showed a character could be playable and be part of a stage. We also learned hazards could be disabled under certain situations, so Ridley being playable would disable the hazard. It made sense to think that was a possibility.

Pretty much we knew a bit earlier he was a hazard, but we had no way to know if he definitely playable or not till the 3DS version released. Wii U version just clarified his role, cause the 3DS version did not have Pyrosphere.

What's funny is that I remember Chrom's Smash 4 thread "Anything Can Change" getting locked because "too much would have to change" to make him playable.
But come Ultimate, not a goddamned thing changed to include Chrom. They kept all of Robin's references to Chrom but slapped a playable Chrom in anyway.

Ridley being both a boss and a playable character sounds much more reasonable now, yet they still cut Pyrosphere.

Honestly, it makes little sense to me that Knuckles's Assist Trophy doesn't appear in Green Hill Zone, playing as Dedede in Dreamland 64 makes the background Dedede sprite not appear, and playing as Toon Link on Spirit Tracks makes Alfonso appear, when Robin can get a Smash Ball, beat Chrom with Chrom and make Chrom applaud Robin and Chrom on the victory screen.

The logic seems flawed. It's not like getting a Knuckles Assist Trophy while Knuckles runs in the background of Green Hill Zone makes any less sense than Mario fighting Mario with different colors.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What's funny is that I remember Chrom's Smash 4 thread "Anything Can Change" getting locked because "too much would have to change" to make him playable.
But come Ultimate, not a goddamned thing changed to include Chrom. They kept all of Robin's references to Chrom but slapped a playable Chrom in anyway.

Ridley being both a boss and a playable character sounds much more reasonable now, yet they still cut Pyrosphere.

Cut is a bit... inaccurate. More like chose not to remake it.

Every single stage was remade from scratch. Pyrosphere would require you to reprogram another boss-like character who had unique gameplay. It was probably not considered that important over other stages in the end.

Chrom did technically change. The thing is, nothing changed since the veterans were high priority for DLC with a few new characters. When Echoes had way more time to make them, when they weren't just costumes? Chrom was pretty easy to make. So a lot did change, namely a change in how character selection worked. And the fanbase wanting him in. The ballot existing and all. In a way, a lot did change, heh. Even though Chrom himself didn't much... besides an Up B.

 

[Shroob]

I still have nightmares about the days where the Pyrosphere Miiverse post happened.


Those were some..... dark times indeed until the Direct, and even STILL there was hope held out until the 3DS version........and even STILL yet there was a small group of people who desperately clung to hope due to the infamous TOWER OF SMASH bunk.

 

[Ben Holt]

I found an exception to the rule!

 

[kirbsmash]

I found an exception to the rule!

Isn't PP one of the many foes anyway?

 

[Mamboo07]

Here's a moveset for Waluigi after I did Bandana Dee last time.

Neutral: Sports
Side: Karting
Up: Parties
Down: His move from the Assist Trophy.
(The first 3 represent the Mario spin-off games.)

 

[Spongeboob]

IMO Smash Newcomer/DLC speculation is, in some twisted way, like life: it's pointless, but fun.

 

[zeldasmash]

It's worth noting that Golden Sun got a pretty huge jump in content and at least a Mii costume was gotten. So it clearly did matter overall with the ballot.

It just didn't get what people wanted. But yeah, the timing was godawful. Isaac and Shadow should've been early AT reveals. Ashley at least got a reasonably early one. Hell, Skull Kid didn't even get a proper reveal. Ouch.

Agreed that the timing of Isaac and by extension Shadow's Assist Trophy showcase was pretty damn bad. This was the same Direct people were hoping on the Grinch Leak being real or not and not only did it get killed off at the beginning with Incineroar, it kept getting worse and worse with Shadow getting AT'd (someone who a lot of people, including myself, were 100% convinced he was in with characters like Richter and Ken being in the game) and Isaac getting AT'd (a fan favorite since the Brawl era that people thought had a shot in Ultimate). To top it off with Piranha Plant being revealed as the first DLC character for Ultimate and people were just not happy by the end of that Direct with Ken and World of Light being the two things everyone agreed were really cool.

Both of them and even other Assist Trophies like Skull Kid had a big chance to make it, but they were put as AT's in what felt like the last minute and Piranha Plant's reveal at the end felt like such a troll move, it's almost as if they were aware of the reaction that was coming.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Agreed that the timing of Isaac and by extension Shadow's Assist Trophy showcase was pretty damn bad. This was the same Direct people were hoping on the Grinch Leak being real or not and not only did it get killed off at the beginning with Incineroar, it kept getting worse and worse with Shadow getting AT'd (someone who a lot of people, including myself, were 100% convinced he was in with characters like Richter and Ken being in the game) and Isaac getting AT'd (a fan favorite since the Brawl era that people thought had a shot in Ultimate). To top it off with Piranha Plant being revealed as the first DLC character for Ultimate and people were just not happy by the end of that Direct with Ken and World of Light being the two things everyone agreed were really cool.

Both of them and even other Assist Trophies like Skull Kid had a big chance to make it, but they were put as AT's in what felt like the last minute and Piranha Plant's reveal at the end felt like such a troll move, it's almost as if they were aware of the reaction that was coming.

PP was honestly one of my favorite reveals as is. Though I definitely liked Incineroar and Ken's double trailer. The fact a 3rd party was mixed with a Pokemon, with a company set of three who are somewhat stingy when combined(TPC), and well... it's insane. That really hit it home how cool it was to even do that. Capcom outright cooperated by having their IP mixed like that for a trailer. Though they aren't Square-Enix, who have too many IP holders to not be picky about things.

Shadow was the AT I found most disappointing, that said. I really wanted to play as him, even if he wasn't really similar to his more unique stuff like in Battle and 06. But it is what it is.

Eh....
Sega on many occasions has seemed to imply that Shadow is the Sonic's Luigi. In the Olympic Games, Shadow was Luigi's counterpart, not Tails.
And in Sonic Boom (which was out during Smash Ultimate's planning phase) flat out said it:

Well, the story role has always put Tails as the Luigi for Sonic.

Gameplay-wise, Shadow is Sonic's clone character for story reasons. His role however is closer to Wario, an anti-hero who does things his own way and was always a kind of rival to him. In a sense, you could say DK is more like the Knuckles. Though the obvious difference is DK didn't spin-off from Mario, but otherwise, slight parallels exist such as Knuckles getting his own crew. Not for the same reasons, though. Knuckles got his own crew due to them not wanting to take chances with a bunch of characters by putting them with Sonic. DK himself is spun off from the arcade games with his own unique crew instead.

I'm not sure how being the second most popular makes him the Luigi though? Cause being the Luigi to Mario is not as simple as "playing the same sometimes". It's more than that. Tails was outright designed that way, with Shadow eventually coming in in the Modern Era as an all new gameplay clone. He wasn't even intended to originally be part of that. As for the Olympics, keep in mind the game goes by specific ability classes similar to Mario Kart with its weight classes. Tails doesn't play like Sonic speed-wise. They're very apart in that regard. Shadow is faster than Sonic by a bit, so why wouldn't he be put under speed in that context? All the characters are put closer based upon their own abilities, as there's no real story reason this time.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Is it wrong that a part of me wants Waluigi remaining an assist because he's basically the "Loser" of Smash given the fun fanart that mocks him with his supposed loser status?

I just like to think of him as this character that no matter how hard he also tries that he fails to make it into the cast. There's a reason he's comparable to the likes of Robbie Rotten and **** Dastardly (Coincidentally enough they look rather alike).

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Is it wrong that a part of me wants Waluigi remaining an assist because he's basically the "Loser" of Smash given the fun fanart that mocks him with his supposed loser status?

I just like to think of him as this character that no matter how hard he also tries that he fails to make it into the cast. There's a reason he's comparable to the likes of Robbie Rotten and **** Dastardly.

Censoring Richard Dastardly’s name makes it kinda awkward ngl

but yeah I kinda agree, Waluigi’s the canon butt monkey of Smash

 

[Eldrake]

Are gaming websites so desperate for clicks nowadays that they will take a random 4chan post and declare it a leak?

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

od take a Layton AT or spirit. Better then nothing which is what the layton fandom has been given lately