Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I mean, I can dig up some pics that were used to actually corroborate leaks and the circumstantial thoughts around the box.

Leakers said, “We’ve only heard Isabelle, Ken, Incineroar”.

The placeholder box art had two halves of characters, broken up in sets of a certain number. It was separated in such a way that suggested there was a character we didn’t know of that would be between Palutena and Corrin (or Cloud, can’t remember). As characters were lined up in order of addition to Smash, this suggested there was an echo fighter. Who did this point to most logically? Ken, as an echo of Ryu. One part of insider leaking corroborated.

Two remaining characters. Pokémon is always a contender. Isabelle was highly speculated. The argument was that Isabelle and Incineroar would be the final characters. That also corroborated what insiders suggested.

This was up against arguments such as:

“The placeholder doesn’t have to look like that!”
“That’s disappointing!”
“But Grinch Leak!”

None of which were actually arguments that have convincing backing. It was based entirely in “that’s not what I want, so no way is it true”, which was further pushed by the Grinch Leak, which then put the entirety of the fanbase against “insiders”, which blew up in the faces of many folks when, as expected, the outcome with the corroborated evidence ended up being true.

But what do I know?

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that the argument sounded pretty baseless to me since I lacked the context that I got 20 minutes ago.

It is amusing that I think one of the reasons ARMS got relatively positive attention is that there was no large scale patterns, rumors, or supposed leaks around the time it was revealed. One of the benefits of being part of a mini-direct during a relative drought of major Nintendo news I suppose.

Even then the reception was pretty meh other than some excitement of the possibility of Assist Trophy = disconfirmed being no more. Were the ARMS character and Byleth swapped, both inclusions would probably have gotten a hate storm.

 

[drag0nscythe]

I mean, I can dig up some pics that were used to actually corroborate leaks and the circumstantial thoughts around the box.

Leakers said, “We’ve only heard Isabelle, Ken, Incineroar”.

The placeholder box art had two halves of characters, broken up in sets of a certain number. It was separated in such a way that suggested there was a character we didn’t know of that would be between Palutena and Corrin (or Cloud, can’t remember). As characters were lined up in order of addition to Smash, this suggested there was an echo fighter. Who did this point to most logically? Ken, as an echo of Ryu. One part of insider leaking corroborated.

Two remaining characters. Pokémon is always a contender. Isabelle was highly speculated. The argument was that Isabelle and Incineroar would be the final characters. That also corroborated what insiders suggested.

This was up against arguments such as:

“The placeholder doesn’t have to look like that!”
“That’s disappointing!”
“But Grinch Leak!”

None of which were actually arguments that have convincing backing. It was based entirely in “that’s not what I want, so no way is it true”, which was further pushed by the Grinch Leak, which then put the entirety of the fanbase against “insiders”, which blew up in the faces of many folks when, as expected, the outcome with the corroborated evidence ended up being true.

But what do I know?

Box Theory won. I remember having wars about it. Proved to be right in the end.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Even then the reception was pretty meh other than some excitement of the possibility of Assist Trophy = disconfirmed being no more. Were the ARMS character and Byleth swapped, both inclusions would probably have gotten a hate storm.

While I think any first party character was probably going to get some antipathy as Fighter 5, I do think response to an ARMS character might have been a touch more positive (confused certainly, but some excitement there). Just to name an example its hard for me to imagine even Spring Man getting the same uncomfortable silence at Nintendo store in New York for his reveal like we saw back in January.

 

[Trevenant]

Well in any case if the Roller coaster of Revealing thing is at Play again, then we should be getting some (Maybe Big) 3rd Party character either after ARMS or after that.

Also I don't know if I'm the only one, But i had a Conspiracy of the Structure of FP2

I think with Banjo, i think with this pass we might see the 3rd party area of this pass to be Western Dominated. I think for Western Owned Characters, Banjo was a good starting point because of the Fan Demand, Microsoft being down with the idea, and while he's not the biggest video game icon, he is a Nintendo Icon. I see Banjo as a test for Sakurai and the team of working with a Western owned property and the struggles that might come with it. Smash as had Western content since Rayman Trophy with Smash 4, but Playable characters and Spirits/Trophies are whole different scenarios.

Because Banjo seemed to work well and Sakurai now has been accustomed to working with Western companies, We might be transitioning to a period of getting Western Icons. We are starting to get more Western Content like Cuphead Mii Costume, Warframe spirit, and Ubisoft Mii Costumes, so it might be a sign. I think because getting the really big characters takes alot of money, I think that's a part of the reason we might see more first parties in the Pass to recoup some of the costs and royalties of Big Western I.Ps and junk.



On it's own it wasn't the most useful, but because there was alot of Inside info and leaks (I think the Ken Pic leak came before Box Theory too), i think that's what made it easier to decipher who the characters were

TBF I recall Sakurai stating that Smash is mainly meant to be a Japanese crossover and Banjo definitely seems more like an exception.

In the universe we currently live in, Banjo would have never gotten in if there was no fan demand. Characters that are like Doom Guy and Crash on the other hand wouldn't be getting in due to demand as, although we can't really source any ballot results, it is not unreasonable to assume Crash and Doom Guy and the like didnt get large enough numbers of votes for Nintendo or Sakurai to seriously consider them based solely or mainly on fan demand (and fyi I am only saying that the ballot would be used in this instance as that's all I can see them using). If we were to get another western character it would probably be based on company relations, or overall impact on the industry which is basically how Nintendo pick characters in Japan too. I suppose what I'm trying to say is, while I think it's highly probable we get another western character, it wouldn't have any relation to Banjo as those are two different situations.

Edit: I misread some of the post as they have other points. I guess I did go on a bit of a tangent but I think most of my point still stands , despite it not entirely relating to the post in question except the first sentence or so. I'll just separate them.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I mean, I can dig up some pics that were used to actually corroborate leaks and the circumstantial thoughts around the box.

Leakers said, “We’ve only heard Isabelle, Ken, Incineroar”.

The placeholder box art had two halves of characters, broken up in sets of a certain number. It was separated in such a way that suggested there was a character we didn’t know of that would be between Palutena and Corrin (or Cloud, can’t remember). As characters were lined up in order of addition to Smash, this suggested there was an echo fighter. Who did this point to most logically? Ken, as an echo of Ryu. One part of insider leaking corroborated.

Two remaining characters. Pokémon is always a contender. Isabelle was highly speculated. The argument was that Isabelle and Incineroar would be the final characters. That also corroborated what insiders suggested.

This was up against arguments such as:

“The placeholder doesn’t have to look like that!”
“That’s disappointing!”
“But Grinch Leak!”

None of which were actually arguments that have convincing backing. It was based entirely in “that’s not what I want, so no way is it true”, which was further pushed by the Grinch Leak, which then put the entirety of the fanbase against “insiders”, which blew up in the faces of many folks when, as expected, the outcome with the corroborated evidence ended up being true.

But what do I know?

I think the general gist of the Grinch Leak's defense arguments can be summed as up as: "This banner art is way too realistic and the background behind it and the insider is way too elaborate to possibly be a fake, it's legit, you need to stop being in denial".

 

[Trevenant]

I think the general gist of the Grinch Leak's defense arguments can be summed as up as: "This banner art is way too realistic and the background behind it and the insider is way too elaborate to possibly be a fake, it's legit, you need to stop being in denial".

I vaguely remember an Artsy Omni livestream where he straight up showed that the background in the leak was different than the official murals background. Then there were people spamming its real in the chat but that's beside the point.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think the general gist of the Grinch Leak's defense arguments can be summed as up as: "This banner art is way too realistic and the background behind it and the insider is way too elaborate to possibly be a fake, it's legit, you need to stop being in denial".

It’s entirely ironic, because they were using an unconfirmed “official” marketing material to...an official marketing placeholder.

Only difference is that one exceeded expectations, and the other was an “underwhelming” ending.

 

[Gribbo]

I wonder if the Grinch stuff had any impact on FP Vol. 2. As I've stated previously, this would be their first chance to revisit characters that were shafted in the base game, and if you look back on past games, it's big backlashes that often precede characters getting in, like Ridley's reveal as a boss or K. Rool's infamous Mii costume.
What's really interesting is that according to Imran Khan, the decision to make Fighter's Pass Vol. 2 happened at E3 2019. What else happened at E3? A character from said blurry image got in, to a rave reception that shocked even Nintendo. Now I'm highly doubtful that the remaining characters are gonna be Geno, Isaac, Shadow, Chorus Kids, and Mach Rider, hell I think we'd get two of them at best, but you'd have to be insane to think Banjo's reception had no impact on the second Fighter's Pass.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I wonder if the Grinch stuff had any impact on FP Vol. 2. As I've stated previously, this would be their first chance to revisit characters that were shafted in the base game, and if you look back on past games, it's big backlashes that often precede characters getting in, like Ridley's reveal as a boss or K. Rool's infamous Mii costume.
What's really interesting is that according to Imran Khan, the decision to make Fighter's Pass Vol. 2 happened at E3 2019. What else happened at E3? A character from said blurry image got in, to a rave reception that shocked even Nintendo. Now I'm highly doubtful that the remaining characters are gonna be Geno, Isaac, Shadow, Chorus Kids, and Mach Rider, hell I think we'd get two of them at best, but you'd have to be insane to think Banjo's reception had no impact on the second Fighter's Pass.

I’m not sure there’s as much a connection to the Grinch Leak as much as it is that Banjo-Kazooie has long been considered a “never ever”, has been wanted in Smash for many years, and is unique in the fact that they connected to Nintendo in ways that many other series aren’t.

Compared to the other characters from the Grinch leak, it’s not necessarily the same situation, though you said that yourself.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I dunno what version of Byleth's reveal video you watched, but Sakurai did not give us the finger when he was counting.

He even counted by putting his fingers down instead of up like you normally do in binary counting, specifically to avoid that. If you count in binary by putting the relevant fingers up, you flip people off when you get to four. The way Sakurai did it, you have to get up to 26 before you flip someone off, and he only counted up to 17.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwVFjpjBeN8

Youre right that he technically isnt giving the finger, if you look hard at it.
What was the value of doing the counting at all?

It seemed like a pretty clear message. That was why the Byleth reveal was brilliant.

 

[slrigeigdew]

I wonder if the Grinch stuff had any impact on FP Vol. 2. As I've stated previously, this would be their first chance to revisit characters that were shafted in the base game, and if you look back on past games, it's big backlashes that often precede characters getting in, like Ridley's reveal as a boss or K. Rool's infamous Mii costume.
What's really interesting is that according to Imran Khan, the decision to make Fighter's Pass Vol. 2 happened at E3 2019. What else happened at E3? A character from said blurry image got in, to a rave reception that shocked even Nintendo. Now I'm highly doubtful that the remaining characters are gonna be Geno, Isaac, Shadow, Chorus Kids, and Mach Rider, hell I think we'd get two of them at best, but you'd have to be insane to think Banjo's reception had no impact on the second Fighter's Pass.

If the ARMS fighter is Springman then Isaac and Shadow chances have increased tenfold. If the fighter is any of the ARMS spirits then Geno and Mach Rider fans just got rid of the biggest hurdle of their character getting in.

I'm skeptical how much a fake leak affected the development process but I like entertaining the possibility.

 

[Garteam]

It's kind of interesting we didn't get a big, fake leak like the Grinch leak during the first Fighter's Pass. We had quite a few text leaks like the Katalina leak, The "Steve-Ryu Hayabusa-Doom Guy" leak, The Female with a Flying Weapon leak, and the Dante leak (although, that was more of a rumour than an outright leak), but no noteworthy fake images.

I guess it's easier to write up a list and post it on 4Chan/pretend your an insider for internet points then slaving away in photoshop for Internet points.

 

[SmashChu]

I think “ending on a disappointment” is entirely subjective anyway. Let’s say Ultimate ends on Master Chief. Is that still a disappointment because it wasn’t 1st party, and there are folks who want an entire pass of 1st parties? I would say, no. Maybe to those people, but I think to the overall industry it would be an explosive announcement.

The argument that Smash “never ends with hype” is misleading for a number of reasons that seemingly just builds a narrative that some characters are inherently inferior to others, when that’s just not true in an objective sense, and it ignores how unexpected outcomes can drive hype, and the timing of particular announcements can come down to pure business decisions.

Carry on.

I feel like this is missing the point a bit. People were particularly let down because they were expecting "hype" third party characters. This what everyone was expected and Byleth wasn't that (there is also the whole FE characters in Smash thing). In fact, I'd say a lot of people were probably not "hyped" for ARMS because it's a Nintendo game. They want stuff like Crash and Doomguy.

There has been the prevailing idea that Smash is everyone's personal MUGAN. This is what creates the "hype" culture Ultimate has seen. Master Cheif would be hype because that's what these people want. Characters like Byleth and ARMS don't fulfill that because it's more Nintendo stuff. Which makes sense. It's a Nintendo title. They own the rights to their own characters so of course they are going to add them. But people think Nintendo can get anyone they want and fulfill their personal dream. When Nintendo doesn't do that, likely do to the investment is requires, they get upset.

The "they never end with hype" is because they don't typically. The reveals are often done in anti-climatic order with their best characters first. This has been done with most of the games. It was true of Ultimate's roster which started with Ridley and Inkling at the forefront.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

when Robin can get a Smash Ball, beat Chrom with Chrom and make Chrom applaud Robin and Chrom on the victory screen.

That can be get around saying the Chrom you see in Robin's Final Smash is simply future Chrom and the one played is present Chrom.

Well, the story role has always put Tails as the Luigi for Sonic.

Gameplay-wise, Shadow is Sonic's clone character for story reasons. His role however is closer to Wario, an anti-hero who does things his own way and was always a kind of rival to him. In a sense, you could say DK is more like the Knuckles. Though the obvious difference is DK didn't spin-off from Mario, but otherwise, slight parallels exist such as Knuckles getting his own crew. Not for the same reasons, though. Knuckles got his own crew due to them not wanting to take chances with a bunch of characters by putting them with Sonic. DK himself is spun off from the arcade games with his own unique crew instead.

I'm not sure how being the second most popular makes him the Luigi though? Cause being the Luigi to Mario is not as simple as "playing the same sometimes". It's more than that. Tails was outright designed that way, with Shadow eventually coming in in the Modern Era as an all new gameplay clone. He wasn't even intended to originally be part of that. As for the Olympics, keep in mind the game goes by specific ability classes similar to Mario Kart with its weight classes. Tails doesn't play like Sonic speed-wise. They're very apart in that regard. Shadow is faster than Sonic by a bit, so why wouldn't he be put under speed in that context? All the characters are put closer based upon their own abilities, as there's no real story reason this time.

The way I've always seen it between Mario and Sonic counterparts.

Mario - Sonic
Tails - Luigi
Peach - Amy
Bowser - Eggman
Donkey Kong - Knuckles
Wario - Shadow

You see where I'm getting here. Never understood the comparisons between Knuckles and Wario when if anything Shadow was more akin to the latter.

I think with Banjo, i think with this pass we might see the 3rd party area of this pass to be Western Dominated. I think for Western Owned Characters, Banjo was a good starting point because of the Fan Demand, Microsoft being down with the idea, and while he's not the biggest video game icon, he is a Nintendo Icon. I see Banjo as a test for Sakurai and the team of working with a Western owned property and the struggles that might come with it. Smash as had Western content since Rayman Trophy with Smash 4, but Playable characters and Spirits/Trophies are whole different scenarios.

Because Banjo seemed to work well and Sakurai now has been accustomed to working with Western companies, We might be transitioning to a period of getting Western Icons. We are starting to get more Western Content like Cuphead Mii Costume, Warframe spirit, and Ubisoft Mii Costumes, so it might be a sign. I think because getting the really big characters takes alot of money, I think that's a part of the reason we might see more first parties in the Pass to recoup some of the costs and royalties of Big Western I.Ps and junk.

If anything I expect one more Western rep at most.

Even then Banjo might had been an total exception due to his ties to Nintendo back in the 90's since as you see Smash involves mostly around characters from games made in Japan (Yes there's alsoand created by western game developers but those were characters made for game franchises that originated in Japan).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That can be get around saying the Chrom you see in Robin's Final Smash is simply future Chrom and the one played is present Chrom.

Spoiler: Fire Emblem: Awakening Spoilers

Wouldn't that mean Robin is Grima?

 

[Koopaul]

Sakurai said he is hesitant to put in Western fighters because he is worried about the language barrier. He likes to have direct feedback with the company when making these fighters. That doesn't mean he's against Western fighters or that Smash is supposed to be a "Japanese character fighting game" it just means working with Western studios is a bit more challenging. As a result, don't expect many Western fighters in Fighters Pass 2. Maybe one, at the most.

 

[Mr. Robotto]

Pulling of an SNK wouldn't be easy but honestly, one of the few options I think could replicate that would be an ArcSys character. Not likely of course, but who knows. Besides all of that Daisuke owns all the music IIRC, so for that part things should be easier.
Great selection of songs btw. I haven't played Overture but listened some songs while playing Revelator 2 and they're really cool.

Also, while Ride the Fire would be great as a separate track, I always thought it could activate in game if someone's playing Sol and he activates Dragon Install, assuming that he would have the option to transform freely, just like in GG Xrd. That would be a nice touch.

A karaoke medley for Yakuza is really a good idea.

ArcSys could definitely pull off an SNK. Honestly the fact that Daisuke even composes BlazBlue tracks could even open the doors to BlazBlue songs in Smash if Sol were to come. It all basically comes down to how strict (or, hopefully in this case: relaxed) Daisuke is when it comes to the rights of his music. Any specific BlazBlue tracks you'd like to see?
Also the thing about Overture is that the OST is basically the best thing about it. The game itself is... very different, let's just leave it at that lol.

Dragon Install (along with the Burst mechanic) could definitely be Sol's gimmick. And Ride the Fire playing when you activate it is great idea and a nice nod to Xrd! It'd just overrule the track that was currently playing, no matter the stage, and keep playing till the set is over (or maybe when Sol loses a stock?). But god, that would be so hype.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Sakurai said he is hesitant to put in Western fighters because he is worried about the language barrier. He likes to have direct feedback with the company when making these fighters. That doesn't mean he's against Western fighters or that Smash is supposed to be a "Japanese character fighting game" it just means working with Western studios is a bit more challenging. As a result, don't expect many Western fighters in Fighters Pass 2. Maybe one, at the most.

If we do get one more. I think the most likely would be Crash or Steve.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I feel like this is missing the point a bit. People were particularly let down because they were expecting "hype" third party characters. This what everyone was expected and Byleth wasn't that (there is also the whole FE characters in Smash thing). In fact, I'd say a lot of people were probably not "hyped" for ARMS because it's a Nintendo game. They want stuff like Crash and Doomguy.

There has been the prevailing idea that Smash is everyone's personal MUGAN. This is what creates the "hype" culture Ultimate has seen. Master Cheif would be hype because that's what these people want. Characters like Byleth and ARMS don't fulfill that because it's more Nintendo stuff. Which makes sense. It's a Nintendo title. They own the rights to their own characters so of course they are going to add them. But people think Nintendo can get anyone they want and fulfill their personal dream. When Nintendo doesn't do that, likely do to the investment is requires, they get upset.

The "they never end with hype" is because they don't typically. The reveals are often done in anti-climatic order with their best characters first. This has been done with most of the games. It was true of Ultimate's roster which started with Ridley and Inkling at the forefront.

This is acting like Master Chief isn't Xbox's mascot and that Halo as whole, though especially 3, was a niche cult classic whereas ARMS was a revolutionary title that made people fill out stores at a midnight release like the third installment of some sci-fi shooter on the 360, though the name escapes me

 

[Koopaul]

If we do get one more. I think the most likely would be Crash or Steve.

I honestly don't know what to expect. But I do agree that it will probably be a series that has some fame in Japan. It could even be Fortnite!

 

[7NATOR]

I wonder if the Grinch stuff had any impact on FP Vol. 2. As I've stated previously, this would be their first chance to revisit characters that were shafted in the base game, and if you look back on past games, it's big backlashes that often precede characters getting in, like Ridley's reveal as a boss or K. Rool's infamous Mii costume.
What's really interesting is that according to Imran Khan, the decision to make Fighter's Pass Vol. 2 happened at E3 2019. What else happened at E3? A character from said blurry image got in, to a rave reception that shocked even Nintendo. Now I'm highly doubtful that the remaining characters are gonna be Geno, Isaac, Shadow, Chorus Kids, and Mach Rider, hell I think we'd get two of them at best, but you'd have to be insane to think Banjo's reception had no impact on the second Fighter's Pass.

I always think about that Post in the Isaac thread that talked about Nintendo being Surprised by the backlash to his AT Reveal.

I think there is a chance the Grinch leak could have some type of impact on the FP2 roster, mnot because the Grinch leak was fake, but because the leak just happened to have really popular characters that got backlash for their non-Playable status. Banjo causing a storm might get Nintendo to take closer look at some fan requests. Even if not all these 5 will be Playable (I don't think Chorus Kids and Mach rider have much of a shot), perhaps we might get mii costumes of these characters or something

Sakurai said he is hesitant to put in Western fighters because he is worried about the language barrier. He likes to have direct feedback with the company when making these fighters. That doesn't mean he's against Western fighters or that Smash is supposed to be a "Japanese character fighting game" it just means working with Western studios is a bit more challenging. As a result, don't expect many Western fighters in Fighters Pass 2. Maybe one, at the most.

If Microsoft gets another character, I could see 2. because Sakurai has managed to work with Microsoft before with Banjo, it might be easier this time to communitcate due to Familiarity. If there's more appeal to the west in this pass, I could see Another Western Company being thrown in because that would be the only unknown in a Sense

Besides Chief, I also say League of Legends (though ain't the company behind that owned by China), Mortal Kombat, and Crash have a shot

 

[Michael the Spikester]

If Microsoft gets another character, I could see 2. because Sakurai has managed to work with Microsoft before with Banjo, it might be easier this time to communitcate due to Familiarity. If there's more appeal to the west in this pass, I could see Another Western Company being thrown in because that would be the only unknown in a Sense

Besides Chief, I also say League of Legends (though ain't the company behind that owned by China), Mortal Kombat, and Crash have a shot

Why Mortal Kombat?
As I stated, the reason Banjo might the exceptional rule is due to the franchises history with Nintendo back then. Yes you may point out toandbut reminder that those characters are from games originating from Japan that were only developed by western studios. Otherwise notice how all characters in Smash so far has all been from franchises having only originated in Japan?

Reason I could see maybe Steve or Master Chief is due to the good relationship between Nintendo and Microsoft right now. Even then I would lean more towards Steve due to the cross promotion and Minecraft being big worldwide especially Japan.

It also doesn't help either that Mortal Kombat isn't popular in Japan nor localized there.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Dragon Install (along with the Burst mechanic) could definitely be Sol's gimmick. And Ride the Fire playing when you activate it is great idea and a nice nod to Xrd! It'd just overrule the track that was currently playing, no matter the stage, and keep playing till the set is over (or maybe when Sol loses a stock?). But god, that would be so hype.

I the way it would work is that, when it activates, the main track gets quiet and Ride the Fire gets played over it (essentially, it would be a glorified sound effect). I'm pretty sure this is how it works with the music "changing" items like the Hammer, since this is how it worked in previous games.

The competitive community would be super salty with a character that has two comeback mechanics; one that's like Arsene, and another that says no to combos.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

What if it’s a third party that’s technically already in the game if the ARMS rep shatters the Spirits fan rule? Probably base only Spirits would qualify, but the companies could give consent for their character to become fully playable. Rayman and Shantae come to mind

 

[slrigeigdew]

Sakurai said he is hesitant to put in Western fighters because he is worried about the language barrier. He likes to have direct feedback with the company when making these fighters. That doesn't mean he's against Western fighters or that Smash is supposed to be a "Japanese character fighting game" it just means working with Western studios is a bit more challenging. As a result, don't expect many Western fighters in Fighters Pass 2. Maybe one, at the most.

Yeah that's the thing that scares me, all the Western characters already in either has ties to an existing series or long history with Nintendo themselves. I can't think of any Western characters that satisfy either these conditions that I'd be all too excited about.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I feel like this is missing the point a bit. People were particularly let down because they were expecting "hype" third party characters. This what everyone was expected and Byleth wasn't that (there is also the whole FE characters in Smash thing). In fact, I'd say a lot of people were probably not "hyped" for ARMS because it's a Nintendo game. They want stuff like Crash and Doomguy.

There has been the prevailing idea that Smash is everyone's personal MUGAN. This is what creates the "hype" culture Ultimate has seen. Master Cheif would be hype because that's what these people want. Characters like Byleth and ARMS don't fulfill that because it's more Nintendo stuff. Which makes sense. It's a Nintendo title. They own the rights to their own characters so of course they are going to add them. But people think Nintendo can get anyone they want and fulfill their personal dream. When Nintendo doesn't do that, likely do to the investment is requires, they get upset.

The "they never end with hype" is because they don't typically. The reveals are often done in anti-climatic order with their best characters first. This has been done with most of the games. It was true of Ultimate's roster which started with Ridley and Inkling at the forefront.

You’re missing the point here. Hype is subjective anyway. Being from Nintendo does not objectively make a pick more hype than a 3rd party one. Being 3rd party does not make a character objectively hype over a 1st party. More groundbreaking in the industry? Yes. More hype? Debatable.

For what’s its worth, no disrespect here, but you also cited licensing issues as to why Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man would be the only 3rd parties in Ultimate. We now have 3x as many 3rd parties, and here we are.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Yeah that's the thing that scares me, all the Western characters already in either has ties to an existing series or long history with Nintendo themselves. I can't think of any Western characters that satisfy either these conditions that I'd be all too excited about.

And as it stands out.is so far and might probably be the only fully western rep to get into Smash.

 

[Cosmic77]

With all the technology that exists today, I don't know why Sakurai would be so intimidated by language barriers. There's a lot of different programs that automatically translate text for you.

Even if he doesn't trust technology though, couldn't he afford to temporarily hire one or two translators for his studio? They'd only be needed for a couple of characters at best. Surely there's enough in the budget for that.

 

[NintenZ]

The reason I don't think Shadow got in could be related to three factors:

1. SEGA's strict policies on how the Sonic brand is used could've led to the character being dropped.
2. Sonic's unpopularity in Japan could've led to him being dismissed.
3. Sakurai isn't really the biggest Sonic fan in general lol.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yeah that's the thing that scares me, all the Western characters already in either has ties to an existing series or long history with Nintendo themselves. I can't think of any Western characters that satisfy either these conditions that I'd be all too excited about.

Then we remember that Sakurai specifically stated had CLOUD not appeared on Nintendo he may have had an issue without bringing up Final Fantasy's Nintendo legacy, meaning a cameo in some spinoff games is significant enough of an appearance and how other games and franchises have more than Chain of Memories and TheatRhythm

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Then we remember that Sakurai specifically stated had CLOUD not appeared on Nintendo he may have had an issue without bringing up Final Fantasy's Nintendo legacy, meaning a cameo in some spinoff games is significant enough of an appearance and how other games and franchises have more than Chain of Memories and TheatRhythm

Maybe but at the same time he was created by Square, an Japanese video game company, not an western video game company.

I'm honestly starting to get into the belief that for western reps, they gotta have some history with Nintendo as Banjo has shown and so far probably the only one that does.

And that's not getting started how he needed massive fan demand to have gotten in.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Byleth was disappointing for two main reasons.

1. Another Fire Emblem character.
2. Most importantly, everyone is conditioned to believe that you "Save the best for last". Which is not Nintendos MO. 3rd Party, 3rd Party, 3rd Party, 3rd Party. Of course people will go "It has to be a 3rd party. and everyone saves the best for last.

Byleth....

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

With all the technology that exists today, I don't know why Sakurai would be so intimidated by language barriers. There's a lot of different programs that automatically translate text for you.

Even if he doesn't trust technology though, couldn't he afford to temporarily hire one or two translators for his studio? They'd only be needed for a couple of characters at best. Surely there's enough in the budget for that.

There are also cultural differences to worry about. I remember seeing something about western companies being concerned with different aspects of allowing the use of a character than eastern companies have been.

1. SEGA's strict policies on how the Sonic brand is used could've led to the character being dropped.

What? They hate it when Sonic's treated with the respect he deserves instead of relying on self deprecating memes to stay relevant?

Jokes aside though, that would be pretty ironic.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Maybe but at the same time he was created by Square, an Japanese video game company, not an western video game company.

I'm honestly starting to get into the belief that for western reps, they gotta have some history with Nintendo as Banjo has shown and so far probably the only one that does.

I'm just saying, we already know Nintendo relevance isn't as strong of a factor as it used to be since 2015

 

[NintenZ]

What? They hate it when Sonic's treated with the respect he deserves instead of relying on self deprecating memes to stay relevant?

Jokes aside though, that would be pretty ironic.

Yeah there was probably was some sort of creative differences Sakurai had with how Shadow was being portrayed which led to him being dropped altogether.

As shown with the amount of visable emotion Sonic has been showing compared to Brawl it's very clear they're strict creatively.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

There are also cultural differences to worry about. I remember seeing something about western companies being concerned with different aspects of allowing the use of a character than eastern companies have been.

Kind of like how said characters wouldn't be featured nor speak if their Japanese voice actor died?

Heihachi notably being one of those and why Phil in one of the Kingdom Hearts games was rather quiet.

Another barrier I could see for western reps in Smash as it seems Smash is celebrating video gaming only originating in Japan unless western character has ties to Nintendo.

 

[Deleted member]

I still say SEGA getting more content would be really awesome.

Even if It was an Alex Kidd Mii costume or a Smash remix of the Sakura Wars theme people would seriously love that.

 

[NintenZ]

This is acting like Master Chief isn't Xbox's mascot and that Halo as whole, though especially 3, was a niche cult classic whereas ARMS was a revolutionary title that made people fill out stores at a midnight release like the third installment of some sci-fi shooter on the 360, though the name escapes me

That's not exactly what he means here.

He's saying that someone like Chief people see as likely because it's a character they want to see get in, whereas something like ARMS is a lot more grounded in reality because it's a character they own and doesn't require the legal hassle that Chief does. (Plus he's EXTREMELY niche in Japan I genuinely don't see him happening lol)

 

[Cosmic77]

Hype for a specific character differs from person to person, but I do think there are some instances where the response is so obvious that regardless of where you stand we should be able to say, "Yeah, this character has had a generally positive/negative response".

There are also cultural differences to worry about. I remember seeing something about western companies being concerned with different aspects of allowing the use of a character than eastern companies have been.

Sakurai is already sort of doing that now though. There are some things that are socially acceptable in Japan that wouldn't be interpreted the same way in NA. A prime example is Game and Watch's reference to Native Americans that was removed.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Kind of like how said characters wouldn't be featured nor speak if their Japanese voice actor died?

Heihachi notably being one of those and why Phil in one of the Kingdom Hearts games was rather quiet.

Another barrier I could see for western reps in Smash as it seems Smash is celebrating video gaming only originating in Japan unless western character has ties to Nintendo.

Heihachi's voice has seemingly been sorted, not to mention this goes against countless examples of characters being recast due to death in the industry, unless of course, you want to claim that no Sonic games have featured Eggman since 2015 or that Chikao Otsuka is still alive and well