Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[TheCJBrine]

I AGREE.
I play as Cuphead and Sans frequently.
Geno was made to be a Mii fighter. I mean. Literally.
Gunner's seem like they were based off of him with an arm cannon. And the lifeless expression is pure Geno.

Geno is expressive in SMRPG, even if he has the stoic expression most of the time. His eyes can widen, and his mouth can grin while he’s laughing. He has moves the gunners don’t use, and he’s not the only character nor the first one to have an arm cannon.

 

[Ben Holt]

Ugh...
As much as I love Rayman, I feel like he is in direct competition with Crash Bandicoot, and between those two, I'd have to side with Crash.
Honestly, had I been the only person Sakurai polled for Fighter's Pass Volume 1, we'd have gotten Crash, Spyro, Rayman, Earthworm Jim, and Ristar Banjo.
Edit: Forgot that Banjo was DLC and not base roster.

 

[Dinoman96]

That...sounds pretty elitist. Any character is Smash material if people want it and it can work in a platform fighting game environment. They don't have to be massive icons in the gaming industry. Heck, we've got Banjo & Kazooie in the game (and with great fanfare among fans, I might add). Why can't the other little guys get any respect around here?

Also, we've gotten roster picks like Dark Samus, Ridley, and Little Mac. The game doesn't revolve around Japan just like it doesn't revolve around The United States of America.

Like what Ericthegamerman said on the other page, Banjo & Kazooie are a very, very special case that not many other characters fall under.

To me, the difference between Dark Samus/Ridley/Little Mac and Rayman is that the first three are Nintendo characters, so the standards are a bit different there. Smash Bros. is a game that's essentially about the history of Nintendo and Japanese gaming, so despite not being very popular in Japan they still make sense to include.

 

[Ben Holt]

Like what Ericthegamerman said on the other page, Banjo & Kazooie are a very, very special case that not many other characters fall under.

To me, the difference between Dark Samus/Ridley/Little Mac and Rayman is that the first three are Nintendo characters, so the standards are a bit different there. Smash Bros. is a game that's essentially about the history of Nintendo and Japanese gaming, so despite not being very popular in Japan they still make sense to include.

Japan is to gaming what the United States is to movies.
Most iconic video game franchises are Japanese because video gaming itself was popularized by Japan.
Yea, the Atari 2600 was American, but it ran itself into the ground and caused the Video Game Crash of 1983. Nintendo, Sega, and later Sony brought video games into the mainstream.
The point I'm making is that the perceived Japanese bias is kinda like the perceived male bias. Most iconic video game characters are Japanese just as most iconic video game characters are male.
So I don't give any weight to the East/West arguments for character inclusion.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

One other thing I'd like to note about how "You can't expect Nintendo fans to learn about non-Nintendo games" is that I was introduced to names like Mortal Kombat, Dragon Quest, Bonk, KoF, Zelda and Smash itself because of gaming magazines. Specifically, the UK Official Nintendo Magazine so I really don't get the excuses to justify "LITERALLY WHO I'VE NEVER HEARD OF THIS"

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If Rayman is to be more unique, he should focus on his gliding ability to be an elite aerial fighter. Though not as extremely biased between air and ground combat as Little Mac.

Agreed. We don't need another Jigglypuff.

Origins is actually the game I realized he'd be great in smash and it lays the ground work for what his standard attacks could be. Though when it comes to specials I think they could pull alot from the original trilogy, have Murphy assist him, or get creative with the whole limbless concept. The man has insane moveset potential!

Oh definitely! My first thought and probably the easiest to implement would be the power ups from Hoodlum Havok, though you could get a bit more creative, like for example I could see his up or side special making use of the Swingmen from the recent games.

I'll be happy as long as he doesn't have his moveset from Super Smash Flash 2. It's probably the most awkward design I've seen, and his Neutral Special seems super pointless.

As much as I love Rayman, I feel like he is in direct competition with Crash Bandicoot...

...Why? They don't really have anything in common aside from their parent genre.

Like what Ericthegamerman said on the other page, Banjo & Kazooie are a very, very special case that not many other characters fall under.

And that special case is...

Fan support.

They're proof that if enough people want it, it'll at least eventually happen. If you discredit other characters for not being iconic (which is a high bar) or being unlikely then of course they're not gonna happen. Doesn't mean they shouldn't though.

To me, the difference between Dark Samus/Ridley/Little Mac and Rayman is that the first three are Nintendo characters, so the standards are a bit different there. Smash Bros. is a game that's essentially about the history of Nintendo and Japanese gaming, so despite not being very popular in Japan they still make sense to include.

That's pretty weak reasoning. Characters of similar standing aren't better or worse additions because of who owns them. EDIT: Just easier to implement.

 

[Wademan94]

I'll be happy as long as he doesn't have his moveset from Super Smash Flash 2. It's probably the most awkward design I've seen, and his Neutral Special seems super pointless.

I like his neutral aerial at least

 

[Mamboo07]

Since we’re on the topic, what colors, costumes or alt characters do you want your most wanted newcomers to have?

I’d want Ryu Hayabusa to have both his modern and NES outfit.

Spoiler: Bandana Dee

1. Default
2. Sailor Dee
3. Kirby
4. Meta Knight
5. Dedede
6. Super Star
7. Gameboy
8. Cafe Outfit

Spoiler: Poochy

1. Default
2. Strawberry
3. Bee
4. Yoshi
5. Hamburger
6. Golden
7. Inverted
8. Crafted

Spoiler: Shake King

1. Default
2. Wario
3. Captain Syrup
4. Rudy the Clown
5. Black Jewel
6. Golden Diva
7. Count Cannoli
8. Pirate Outfit (Something like Kaptain K. Rool)

Spoiler: Amaterasu

1. Default
2. Waka
3. Sakuya
4. Susano
5. Kushi
6. Ninetails
7. Orochi
8. Yami

Spoiler: Crash

1. Default
2. Biker Outfit
3. Explorer Outfit
4. Scuba Outfit
5. Aviator Outfit
6. Tuxedo Outfit
7. Scientist Outfit
8. Skeleton

Spoiler: Heavy

1. Default
2. BLU
3. ?
4. ?
5. ?
6. ?
7. ?
8. Robot

 

[Dinoman96]

I mean, how much fan support does Rayman even have? He's never come off to me as being on the same level as the likes of Ridley, Mega Man, K. Rool and Banjo. To me, he always seemed like a mid-tier request, at best.

 

[Ben Holt]

I mean, how much fan support does Rayman even have? He's never come off to me as being on the same level as the likes of Ridley, Mega Man, K. Rool and Banjo. To me, he always seemed like a mid-tier request, at best.

I think he had more support than any ARMS character. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[MrMcNuts]

I mean, how much fan support does Rayman even have? He's never come off to me as being on the same level as the likes of Ridley, Mega Man, K. Rool and Banjo. To me, he always seemed like a mid-tier request, at best.

I run the Rayman For Smash twitter and gained 3100+ followers in less than a year. That's not definitive proof but I didn't gain that growth from Rayman not having support

 

[N3ON]

I mean, how much fan support does Rayman even have? He's never come off to me as being on the same level as the likes of Ridley, Mega Man, K. Rool and Banjo. To me, he always seemed like a mid-tier request, at best.

No, but you also picked four of the most popular characters of the past decade. At his height, which was towards the tail-end of Smash 4, he was certainly more demanded than any third-party we've gotten since, bar Banjo. And fortunately for him, that was largely concurrent with the ballot.

But obv his popularity has subsided since. And it doesn't seem like the ballot did a whole lot, since his role is pretty much the same it was last time.

Many people seem to view the costumes as beneficial to his chances, but I don't. I don't think we'd get costumes related to Rayman in an unrelated wave were he in the pipeline.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think the issue with Rayman's popularity is his dormancy, characters like Doom Slayer and Dante****ing skyrocketed in support because they got new, critically acclaimed games in recent memory, the last Rayman game came out nearly 7 years ago, said gake getting heavily screwed over by Ubisoft's dumbass decision to delay the game for 6 months so that it'd compete with GTA5 despite the Wii U version already having been finished

 

[Sc_Ev0lution]

I run the Rayman For Smash twitter and gained 3100+ followers in less than a year. That's not definitive proof but I didn't gain that growth from Rayman not having support

I mean, the Reimu for Smash twitter had similar growth... Depending on who you ask that's a good or a bad thing

The Rayman fan demand has kinda tapered off for a lot of reasons: lack of new games, the break between Smash 4 and Ultimate, Joker broadening what 3rd parties people thought could make the cut, and his inclusion as a spirit probably all contributed to halting momentum.

 

[N3ON]

If you take a step back you realize that none of the third-parties ever owed their inclusion to the near-sighted demand spurred by some recent release.

Snake was a favour, Sonic is Sonic, Mega Man, Simon and Banjo showed up when their series were in rough shape, Pac-Man was mostly due to Namco being the developer, Ryu, Cloud, Joker, Hero and Terry were never chart-toppers in the first place, and Bayo was a ruse.

So put stock into "flavour-of-the-month" popularity at your own peril.

 

[MrMcNuts]

I mean, the Reimu for Smash twitter had similar growth... Depending on who you ask that's a good or a bad thing

The Rayman fan demand has kinda tapered off for a lot of reasons: lack of new games, the break between Smash 4 and Ultimate, Joker broadening what 3rd parties people thought could make the cut, and his inclusion as a spirit probably all contributed to halting momentum.

If anything his demand has increased, he definitely has strong support going for him man

 

[N3ON]

If anything his demand has increased, he definitely has strong support going for him man

His demand has not increased from the days of the Rayman trophy reveal and Omni's leak - that's when it was at its height.

 

[MrMcNuts]

His demand has not increased from the days of the Rayman trophy reveal and Omni's leak - that's when it was at its height.

I've seen way more support for him now then I did back then honestly

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If you take a step back you realize that none of the third-parties ever owed their inclusion to the near-sighted demand spurred by some recent release.

Snake was a favour, Sonic is Sonic, Mega Man, Simon and Banjo showed up when their series were in rough shape, Pac-Man was mostly due to Namco being the developer, Ryu, Cloud, Joker, Hero and Terry were never chart-toppers in the first place, and Bayo was a ruse.

So put stock into "flavour-of-the-month" popularity at your own peril.

No, but critically acclaimed mainstream releases do help keep eyes on the games and often spur "Oh, I never considered that!" moments which lead to support and spreading the word. It may not influence Smash itself, but it DOES spread word of mouth amongst fans, which can lead into further support and more word of mouth

 

[N3ON]

I've seen way more support for him now then I did back then honestly

Because you run a Rayman for Smash twitter that started last year.

If you want a tiny slice of what it was like last time, consider Rayman's Ultimate thread has 73 pages, and his Smash 4 thread has 439 pages.

No, but critically acclaimed mainstream releases do help keep eyes on the games and often spur "Oh, I never considered that!" moments which lead to support and spreading the word. It may not influence Smash itself, but it DOES spread word of mouth amongst fans, which can lead into further support and more word of mouth

And some of those characters have their popularity endure regardless of releases, and most find it decline without a recent game.

 

[Ben Holt]

His demand has not increased from the days of the Rayman trophy reveal and Omni's leak - that's when it was at its height.

The Artsi Omni hoax, if anything, proved that reception for Rayman would be almost universally positive.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Because you run a Rayman for Smash twitter that started last year.

If you want a tiny slice of what it was like last time, consider Rayman's Ultimate thread has 73 pages, and his Smash 4 thread has 439 pages.


And some of those characters have their popularity endure regardless of releases, and most find it decline without a recent game.

Again, Smash fans fail to consider loads of characters they like, for example, Skull Kid got a **** ton of traction after Loz13 backed him after correctly leaking multiple details about the game, Dante's Smash popularity went from 0 to 100 incredibly quick all because of a fake leak to the point Dante got on the Switch, Cloud was never considered a possibility due to the assumption that Nintendo relevance was super important yet when he got in people were overjoyed

 

[Koopaul]

I think the likes of Ridley and Banjo got in due to the immeasurable amounts of fan requests. Some dating back over 10 years. Rayman does not have this.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Because you run a Rayman for Smash twitter that started last year.

If you want a tiny slice of what it was like last time, consider Rayman's Ultimate thread has 73 pages, and his Smash 4 thread has 439 pages.


And some of those characters have their popularity endure regardless of releases, and most find it decline without a recent game.

Damn didn't know SmashBoards is the only viable thing to show how much a character is requested!

NVM the fact that twitter has plenty more active users, Rayman still consistently makes it into the top 10 requested character polls. His demand is still there and going strong. Y'all don't have to like him, I know there's plenty of bias against him here, but to keep saying over and over he ain't iconic and not demanded and treat it like is fact is a little unfair

 

[Garteam]

I think the reality is that Smash Bros Speculation is going through a minor identity crisis: is Smash a general gaming crossover, or is it a Nintendo crossover?

Prior Smash for Wii U/3DS' DLC, there really wasn't a debate that Smash wasn't a Nintendo crossover. Yeah, there were a few non-Nintendo characters, but they were so vastly outnumbered by the Nintendo cast that the theme of "Nintendo meets Nintendo plus a couple of guests" was pretty unambiguous.

I think the foundations of this debate started to emerge during Smash for Wii U/3DS' DLC and Ultimate's base roster. Here, we got third parties in a greater quantity than ever before, with each set of newcomers having three third parties each (, , and for Wii U/3DS DLC and , , and for Ultimate). However, most people still saw Smash primarily as a Nintendo game. The number of Nintendo newcomers still outnumbering the non-Nintendo newcomers, third parties often having first party characters revealed in between them, and Richter/Ken being echoes helped send the message "Yeah, non-Nintendo is the exception, not the rule".

However, starting with the Fighter's Pass, this is when the "Smash is now a general gaming crossover" camp emerged from basically one reveal: . Now, Joker is awesome, but he's also the biggest hard-left we've ever seen occur in Smash speculation. Dude broke a lot of conceptions over who is and is not eligible for Smash. Not only was he far newer than every other third party in Smash, he was almost far more obscure than the other (non-echo) third parties. The only character who matched Joker in being a relatively recent, more obscure non-Nintendo character is Bayonetta, who was largely seen as an exception due to having Bayonetta 2 funded and published by the Big N itself.

Thanks to Joker, the floodgates seemed to be open. You no longer had to be a Sonic or Ryu to be a non-Nintendo character in Smash, anyone from a reasonably popular game was a viable candidate. Compound this with an ambiguous "the other fighters will be like Joker" comment from Reggie, it really seemed like the sky was the limit. The Smash community has a bad habit on bunkering down on a handful of faces that are deemed likely, the expectation of Smash now being focused on more than just Nintendo self-perpetuated itself. With Joker being followed by three other characters from non-Nintendo companies, it really seemed like Smash was undoubtedly a general gaming crossover...

However, looking at who we got, we didn't really get any hard curveballs like Joker. was probably the most conventional third party we saw in the pack. While Hero is technically a very new character due to Eleven's recency, having alts based on other characters from the NES and PS2 situated Hero as a legacy character. Likewise, Dragon Quest is a massive franchise with a strong tie to Nintendo, making Hero far closer to Mega Man than Joker. came from a smaller franchise like Joker, but they were also far older and has extremely heavy ties to Nintendo, reducing a lot of the surprise that came with the bear and the bird. was another character from a more lowkey franchise, but his legacy and fame within his own genre divorced him from the curveball factor of Joker. Now, and ARMS are giving us back to back Nintendo characters. It's impossible to know where FP #7 and beyond will go, but the wild west of possible character choices that many thought would come after Joker seems to be less and less with each choice.

So, is Smash a gaming crossover or a Nintendo crossover? Honestly, like with many things, the truth is somewhere in the middle. There is no doubt the restrictions on third parties in Smash have loosened as time has gone. However, beyond Joker, we still aren't seeing the wild "anyone goes" picks that folks in the "Smash is a gaming crossover" suggest we should be seeing. As such, I always get surprised when people are perplexed that there's still a call for Nintendo characters. It's great that we're seeing more and more diverse characters join Smash, but the series isn't going to completely abandon its foundation overnight. Even after Ultimate's DLC, the focus on Nintendo first and foremost is still present.

 

[MarioRaccoon]

Remember that Nintendo choses over the characters for both FP1 and 2, who really knows which criteria they use to pick up the fighters. We even don’t know if the fighters are choose by only people at Nintendo Japan or either NOA or NOE helped with the selection.

So far, with FP1, it may be seem that Nintendo chose to strengthen their partner relationship with third parties by letting them add 4 of the 5 fighters. The companies chosen were Atlus (SEGA), Square-Enix, Microsoft and SNK. The final character was chosen to promote a Nintendo game released at 2019, the election as we know was Byleth.

So far with FP2, we know that the first fighter is from ARMS, if it is revealed that they are developing an ARMS sequel (called it “ARMS 2”), I think that they would be applying the same criteria as Byleth. That is that FP6 is a promo pick from a Nintendo game that will release this year. If this would be the case, I expect at least another fighter from Nintendo (probably the last one) that would be another pick but from a game that will be released at 2021.

Now, what if they aren’t developing an Arms sequel and they chose to pick him/her simply by whatever criteria has Nintendo’s people at their heads ? Maybe some of you (like myself) is thinking (and wanting) something like “last FP had various third party characters, so we could be getting the same, this helps Nintendo to have better relationships with other publishers”. But, this would be correct? Or they are thinking of something else?

What would happen if Nintendo thinks this FP2 as a “Ultimate 2” scenario? That would be that “imagine that we are developing a new Smash game with the same premise of ’everyone is here’ and lets add another 6 original fighters, doesn’t matter if they are already spirits or assist trophies. So with this line of thought, and thinking of Ultimate original newcomers, we get 6 of them that can de divided in two groups:

Representation new games: Inklings (Splatoon), Isabelle (AC New Leaf) and Incineroaf (PKMN Sun/Moon)

Fan-requested: Ridley, King K Rool and Simon Belmont

If they are trying to achieve the same, maybe we can expect:

Representation of Switch games: ARMS fighter, Rex and a Pokemon from Sword/Shield

Fan-requested: Geno, Isaac and Dixie Kong (here are many picks, this is just an example).

 

[GoodGrief741]

He is the face of one of the most prominent developers in gaming.
I think that alone constitutes being 'hella known.'

C'mon now, really? You are aware that the period where Rayman was the face of Ubisoft and the period where they are one of the most prominent developers in gaming isn't the same, right?

Like, you can apply your statement to Alex Kidd, that should serve as an indicator of how flawed that argument is.

 

[osby]

Remember that Nintendo choses over the characters for both FP1 and 2, who really knows which criteria they use to pick up the fighters. We even don’t know if the fighters are choose by only people at Nintendo Japan or either NOA or NOE helped with the selection.

So far, with FP1, it may be seem that Nintendo chose to strengthen their partner relationship with third parties by letting them add 4 of the 5 fighters. The companies chosen were Atlus (SEGA), Square-Enix, Microsoft and SNK. The final character was chosen to promote a Nintendo game released at 2019, the election as we know was Byleth.

So far with FP2, we know that the first fighter is from ARMS, if it is revealed that they are developing an ARMS sequel (called it “ARMS 2”), I think that they would be applying the same criteria as Byleth. That is that FP6 is a promo pick from a Nintendo game that will release this year. If this would be the case, I expect at least another fighter from Nintendo (probably the last one) that would be another pick but from a game that will be released at 2021.

Now, what if they aren’t developing an Arms sequel and they chose to pick him/her simply by whatever criteria has Nintendo’s people at their heads ? Maybe some of you (like myself) is thinking (and wanting) something like “last FP had various third party characters, so we could be getting the same, this helps Nintendo to have better relationships with other publishers”. But, this would be correct? Or they are thinking of something else?

What would happen if Nintendo thinks this FP2 as a “Ultimate 2” scenario? That would be that “imagine that we are developing a new Smash game with the same premise of ’everyone is here’ and lets add another 6 original fighters, doesn’t matter if they are already spirits or assist trophies. So with this line of thought, and thinking of Ultimate original newcomers, we get 6 of them that can de divided in two groups:

Representation new games: Inklings (Splatoon), Isabelle (AC New Leaf) and Incineroaf (PKMN Sun/Moon)

Fan-requested: Ridley, King K Rool and Simon Belmont

If they are trying to achieve the same, maybe we can expect:

Representation of Switch games: ARMS fighter, Rex and a Pokemon from Sword/Shield

Fan-requested: Geno, Isaac and Dixie Kong (here are many picks, this is just an example).

Interesting, but it's a little early to draw such conclusions.

Firstly, even if there is no sequel in development, I think an ARMS newcomer is still pretty similar to Byleth as both of their games were already released at the time of their announcement. I just don't see a drastic change in Nintendo's way of picking characters at the moment.

Also, your way of dividing the characters feels forced when Inklings were far more requested than Belmonts and Isabelle's debut is way too early to be compared to Incineroar.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I missed the FPS rep discussion and I just would like to say I hate seeing arguments over which shooter is more "deserving". Doom and Halo had different impacts on gaming and just because they're from the same genre doesn't necessarily mean one overwrites the other. Take Gordon Freeman for example, he is my most wanted FPS character and the impact that Half-Life has done for gaming is far more different than Doom and Halo in terms of direction and magnitude.


Is Doomguy the most deserving shooter just because he came before those other two? Well that's not necessarily true because if it was then Erdrick would have come before Cloud.

What about Master Chief? Is he more deserving just because he is the most recognizable FPS protagonist? That's also wrong because popularity only plays part of a role in a character's inclusion and it's not the entire criteria. Otherwise we would have seen someone like Ridley in Smash ever since Brawl.

Then what about Gordon Freeman? His series is arguably the most influential to the gaming industry with how much impact and innovation it did. However, I say influence can only take you so far. King of Fighters inspired Smash's mechanics very heavily and Sakurai went on record to confirm this, yet Terry Bogard never came before Ryu.


The most "deserving" shooter rep doesn't exist. Each of the FPS protagonists I've mentioned has their own merits and impacts on gaming that qualifies them for Smash, yet I don't see any one of them being more obviously ahead in terms of who is next. At the end of the day, however, all three of these characters would be kick ass in Smash and I do hope to see all three together one day.

 

[MarioRaccoon]

Interesting, but it's a little early to draw such conclusions.

Firstly, even if there is no sequel in development, I think an ARMS newcomer is still pretty similar to Byleth as both of their games were already released at the time of their announcement. I just don't see a drastic change in Nintendo's way of picking characters at the moment.

Also, your way of dividing the characters feels forced when Inklings were far more requested than Belmonts and Isabelle's debut is way too early to be compared to Incineroar.

Remember that Ultimate roster was decided way back in december 2015 and Isabelle debuted in AC New Leaf, which released in Japan on November 2012, so she was 3 years old when she joined the roster. Its probably that both Inklings and Isabelle were quite popular at that time but Sakurai said that Ridley, King K Rool and Simon get in simply because they got high votes during 2015 Smash 4 ballot. I think Ultimate base newcomers as a good balance of both popular new and old characters.

Smash represents a timeline of Nintendo’s history and so, in each new entry they tried to add some of the newest characters from that time to represent new Nintendo eras (Inklings is a good WiiU representation and both Isabelle/Incineroar for N3DS)

 

[Cosmic77]

It's literally impossible to deduce a pattern from a single character.

I get that some of us are eager to step into some serious speculation, but this is really premature. It's waaaaay too soon to label the pass as focusing on first or third-parties.

 

[GillyGrime]

There's a difference between being more familiar with Nintendo and shutting out anything that isn't from Nintendo. I had a ps2 that's been unusable for the past 8 years, a ps3 I got nearly 2 years ago and a gaming PC that I bought almost a year ago. In comparison, I had a Gamecube, GBA and DS and also have a Wii, Wii U, 3DS and Switch. Despite this, I very much knew what Persona was despite never touching an Atlus game unless you count DMC3, DQXIS was my first Dragon Quest yet I was very familiar with the franchise and despite only having played 2 SNK games solely because of my local library having Metal Slug and a KoF game at the time, I was very much familiar with SNK's brand. It's not expecting people buy more consoles, it's expecting people to have general awareness for huge stuff, especially when one of those 3 became a hot topic for Smash fans when EVO 2019's line-up was shown

I agree that shutting down anything that isn't Nintendo is just as daft, especially with how ambitious Sakurai has been with Ultimate being the "Ultimate crossover". My top 2 most wanted are Dixie Kong and Crash Bandicoot (that's the PS1 nostalgia in me haha) so I'm 100% game for more 3rd parties also. That said I don't think I or others need patronising for not knowing 2B or her game for example, or Reimu and her game etc. (not targeting this at you, but I have seen multiple different comments like this lately).

I agree people who describe SNK or DQ as "literally who" are being comically ignorant but that doesn't justify making a strawman for the "Smash fanbase" and back patting in response to it. I've seen too many comments of people lecturing the "Smash fanbase" on franchises with comments like "lol classic Smash fanbase hates sword loves 90s" even though they are posting about Smash, on a forum dedicated to Smash, which makes them part of the Smash fanbase...

I always try to sneak a Let's Play in or two to educate myself with speculation purely so I'm not out of loop with any majorly speculated PS/Xbox exclusive characters. But it's a lot harder to engage watching in online, especially with a Youtuber shouting over it.

 

[Guynamednelson]

So, is Smash a gaming crossover or a Nintendo crossover? Honestly, like with many things, the truth is somewhere in the middle. There is no doubt the restrictions on third parties in Smash have loosened as time has gone. However, beyond Joker, we still aren't seeing the wild "anyone goes" picks that folks in the "Smash is a gaming crossover" suggest we should be seeing. As such, I always get surprised when people are perplexed that there's still a call for Nintendo characters. It's great that we're seeing more and more diverse characters join Smash, but the series isn't going to completely abandon its foundation overnight. Even after Ultimate's DLC, the focus on Nintendo first and foremost is still present.

Really it feels like it's marketing fluff misinterpreted as a way to gatekeep first parties. I'd think as a general gaming crossover, Sakurai would stick to the plans to make a Castlevania fighter with a stronger connection to the PS1 than Simon, and Nintendo would pick a bigger icon Microsoft owns.

Oh and we wouldn't be debating on who would rep ARMS on the roster.

 

[XorahnGaia]

I think there wouldn't be such a stigma against "ignorance for non-Nintendo characters" if some users didn't try to use their single point of view to judge the character actual popularity and /or influence.
For example, there's nothing wrong with not knowing who 2B is prior to her being mentioned on this forums, but that doesn't mean she's a nobody that the average videogamer wouldn't recognize.

Like, saying "I don't know this character, therefore it's probably not well known and/or does not deserve to be in smash" is such a weak argument, and I while realize is not that common, the few times that is used naturally stains the perspective of your point of view for the other side of the debate.
The simple truth is that personal experience doesn't matter and it's something to keep in mind IF we want to attempt to make a somewhat objective discussion on popularity and such.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Probably fake but figured I'd post it. From the ARMS IP thread.

 

[Mamboo07]

Probably fake but figured I'd post it. From the ARMS IP thread.

Same as you.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

It was already confirmed fake https://twitter.com/kimoiguess/status/1255006436410753035?s=20

 

[Shroob]

One other thing I'd like to note about how "You can't expect Nintendo fans to learn about non-Nintendo games" is that I was introduced to names like Mortal Kombat, Dragon Quest, Bonk, KoF, Zelda and Smash itself because of gaming magazines. Specifically, the UK Official Nintendo Magazine so I really don't get the excuses to justify "LITERALLY WHO I'VE NEVER HEARD OF THIS"

I mean, I could simply say that people are close minded/lazy, but that would be too easy.


People just really aren't willing to branch out and put in a little bit of time and effort on their part. Maybe it's because I just REALLY ****ING LOVE video games, but when I hear about characters I've never heard of, the first thing I do is just, ya know, GOOGLE them and give their Wikipedia/dedicated wiki a few minutes of my time to familiarize myself with them.


I'm not going to pull the low-hanging fruit joke of "It's not X character I want, thus no one's ever heard of them", but it feels like that, a lot.


SMASH fans may have never heard of Terry Bogard in regards to before the leak, as an example, but as someone who knows a TON of history in the FGC and its legacy of games? Terry's a super iconic character. Is Fatal Fury/King of Fighters this globally huge, triple-A blockbuster title? No, no it isn't. But to discredit its history to fighting games other than Smash as a whole because it seems obscure TO YOU is close-minded and naive.


Likewise, I'm one of the few who has very little interest in FPS, and let alone XBOX titles, so to me, I know very little of Master Chief, but I put some time into learning about Halo and its impact on the gaming world.


But, you can't expect everyone to do this kind of research. People want to know things in three sentences or less, and of course, bias plays a HEAVY role in all of this.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

It was already confirmed fake https://twitter.com/kimoiguess/status/1255006436410753035?s=20

Yep not surprised. More often then not they tend to be fake.

 

[YoshiandToad]

"Max Brass Joins the Battle" seems a little underwhelming as a tagline as well. Disappointed with that fake's lack of pun creativity.