Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[NonSpecificGuy]

Considering how Banjo is the only DLC character so far who a notable number of people can claim they predicted, I expect almost all of this pass to be unexpected characters no one was talking about.

Hero and Banjo were pretty widely speculated. Joker and Terry was pretty shocking though and Byleth was Byleth...

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Hero and Banjo were pretty widely speculated. Joker and Terry was pretty shocking though and Byleth was Byleth...

I would say Terry was more in the middle tbh.

King of Fighters/Fatal Fury is somewhat known and popular just not on the level of other fighting games, on the other hand no one just expected him thus an dark horse pick he was (Surprising given the series is what inspired Super Smash Bros from the taunts, shields and how the characters fights).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hero and Banjo were pretty widely speculated. Joker and Terry was pretty shocking though and Byleth was Byleth...

...Well, Erdrick was. Very few speculated on the idea of any Hero besides him. Or alts for that matter. It didn't help we had no reason to really believe outright an alt existed for quite a while. Crazy times.

Banjo, yeah. Definitely speculated a lot. The Banjo VS Steve wars sucked the second somebody made a troll meme version of Steve.

 

[Cosmic77]

Hero and Banjo were pretty widely speculated. Joker and Terry was pretty shocking though and Byleth was Byleth...

Very few people can take the credit for predicting one of the four DQ Heroes. Verge is literally the only reason why DQ speculation wasn't limited to the occasional conversation about Slime.

Banjo is the only character who I saw people frequently predict without a rumor influencing them. Joker and Terry were nonexistent, and Byleth was only brought up on the astronomically low chance that F5 wasn't third-party.

 

[Will]

I would say Terry was more in the middle tbh.

name one person speculating SNK before CJ the Intern leaked the SNK trademark

you talking about nakoruru and believing in a stranger on the internet talking about birds doesn't count

 

[pupNapoleon]

I'm leaning towards Double Dragon getting into Vol 2. I think Nintendo would want to bring a Fighter Pack that comes with an additional Echo fighter, and Billy and Jimmy would fit perfectly on that spot. The only thing I wonder is which of the brothers would be the echo.

I don't think they would make sense as echo characters... if they weren't both part of the same character, as alternative options in the same slot, it would seem quite odd to me. Even then, the two just go together.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

name one person speculating SNK before CJ the Intern leaked the SNK trademark

you talking about nakoruru and believing in a stranger on the internet talking about birds doesn't count

As mentioned Fatal Fury/King of Fighters is somewhat popular, not on the levels of other fighting game franchises but still popular. Its more surprising he never was speculated much as the series inspired Super Smash Bros.

 

[Cosmic77]

As mentioned Fatal Fury/King of Fighters is somewhat popular, not on the levels of other fighting game franchises but still popular. Its more surprising he never was speculated much as the series inspired Super Smash Bros.

Being popular isn't the same as being speculated, which is what we were getting at. Almost no one predicted a SNK rep.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think I remember seeing a tiny bit of SNK talk before the leak here and there, honestly. But it wasn't a hot topic by any means.

 

[chocolatejr9]

...

... just gonna leave this with a facepalm.



Hayabusa isn't unexpected... he'd be fun, sure, but he is highly speculated.
Unexpected characters (well, they cant be speculated)

but my list would be:

- Frogger
- Carmen SanDiego
- Angry Birds
- Arthur

It'd be even more unexpected if they used Frogger's anthropomorphic design. Although that might be easier to use than his normal design...

 

[Will]

I think I just like new genres of video games being implemented into Smash. It just sounds fun just trying to make it work. Not really to fill an arbitrary quota, I'm just talkin' about it in general. No point in yelling at each other over something that's been a seal-tight secret since Hero's datamining.

Like, point-and-click or text-based adventure titles. Phoenix Wright may have MvC but I wanna see how characters like Ayumi, Carmen, or if Nintendo really wants to go on the obscure end, King's Quest would translate into the game.

 

[SmashChu]

Because that's still playtesting. They have to be 100% done to be in the presentation. No ifs, ands, or buts

So you are telling me that two costumes that were at least running in November need so much playtesting so they can be ready for release in maybe June before the delays. And this playtest only had these two costumes and none of the other 10 that would have needed playtest soon. I'm guessing these two must have some really complex programming if they need a half a year of playtesting and priority over other costumes.

Who says they need to show anything else? That's not evidence of anything.

Because it begs the question. Why does the "leak" only have two costumes that have yet to be released and not any of the other 10 that were released between the "leak" and now? The simple answer is "it's fake".

Except these were probably CP6's first costumes anyway. You are aware it doesn't matter how long it takes to release a costume, right? All they do is license it and tie it to one specific character pack. That's the beginning and the end of it.

Fighter Pass 6 is the ARMS character, so if these were for that pack then they don't imply any characters (which is what people look at this leak for anyway). Licensing is irrelevant here because we are talking about how long it takes to make them, and here we are talking about a costume which is taking 9 months to make.

The reasonable assumption is 90/10 in favor of them. There's zero reason why they'd stop when they're still doing a costume for Fighter Pass 2. Also, FP6 is a bit off. That'd mean Fighter's Pass 6. Silly thing that bothered me.

There are plenty of reasons not to do one as well. Maybe the team is smaller. Maybe they didn't intend to keep Mii characters going and don't want to license them. They already said they added their last mode so why not kill the character thing too. Nintendo hasn't confirmed any costume packs. It's onoly character/stage/music so there is no reason to believe they will do other things unless they say otherwise.

Where did they say it wasn't the final build in these presentations? Actual question here. Cause that's a fair point. However, it doesn't change that even if it was "Presentable", it was also bought at a time where it could've always been planned for Challenger Pack 6. The timeframe assumes a lot.
This is something interesting to note too; we don't actually know when Id Solftware talked to Nintendo specifically. Sans was 7 months ago. They were asked not till slightly before the Byleth announcement about it. That means the characters could've been asked about even as soon as September, not long before the leak came about for Cacomallow. We have no real timeframe of when the IP could be secured. It very likely was secured only for Fighter's Pass 2 stuff. The closest thing to a Doom rumor was in July 2019, which if that's as soon as they got it, that's actually... something that wouldn't be decided for outside of Fighter's Pass 2.

It's usually in the start of the videos. He's mentioned it in Banjo and Byleth I believe.
Id and Nintendo talking is irrelevant because we have a starting timeframe in November (when the leak came out). We don't need to speculate on that.

Verge literally leaked all of Byleth's costumes 10 minutes before. Presentations are at the same time, so he was literally leaked information, even if it's just the video itself not long before. So your claim is incorrect.

In otherwords, he saw the video just before it went live. This isn't the same thing and what we are looking at here.

So yes, yes, they have. I still think it's likely a mod myself, mainly due to what Gwen said about it being impossible to replicate. Besides the video not being taken down as well, which is a huge red flag. The rest, not so much because we don't know enough about the timeframes either. We know Mii Costumes can take at least half a year minimum. That still matches up here. We already knew they started deciding Fighter's Pass 2. Why can't it be part of that at all? Cause of an assumption of some sorts that just cause it was leaked at one point, it magically was only meant for Byleth? That's just not how it works. Things can leak very early or very late. There's no hard timeframe for a leak alone. Timeframe has never been a strong point. Maybe it will be when we can confirm when Id Software talked to Nintendo(which is the earliest the costume could be licensed).

The only weird thing is aren't leaks usually taken down close to when the actual product comes out? Not that I think that means much, cause they seem to be taken down at random. I don't remember it being always "as soon as possible" either. I still think the video is fake cause it's not taken down in general, but I can't clinch it as it being fake when there's too little information beyond that. There's too many development factors that are severely lacking. We can't pinpoint how early it could be licensed(July might make sense... except that was a rumor of Doomguy in Smash, nothing else. It's safe to say he's not coming either. So we still don't have any real information here to pinpoint it. Just random tidbits that amount to no useful details).

Let me just clarify the argument with this. When this was supposedly taken in November, there was still other content that has not been released. They aren't going to be working on everything at once since things have to come out at certain times. So if it take six months to make a character and its suppose to come out in January, then you'd need to start in June/July. The costumes likely take less time than the character. So let's say that these were for FP 7, and let's say this was going to be in June but was delayed because of COVID-19. So why would they be working on something for a character that wont release in seven to eight months when they have stuff that will release in the near future (also, we don't know how long it takes to make costumes. Sakurai ha said characters take half a year and those costumes are definitely not 6 months of work). They aren't going to be working on a Mii Fighter costume and sit on it for 6 months. Based on the video, it was probably close to being done. There is no reason to think it needs that much debugging. So why would they working on something this far in advance?

I think the problem is, again, you are giving the leak the benefit of the doubt and are not asking the questions. What kills most rumors is time. If it doesn't happen, it's not true. It's been about six months now and we haven't seen either of these costumes show up. It's not unreasonable to believe that this could have been a mod, and there is nothing in the leak that has been confirmed. So the simplest answer is it's fake.

 

[KillerCage]

Given we also had gotten ArcSystem as an spirit event Sol Badguy is another unexpected character we could see.

Of course people keep forgetting about Ragna the Bloodedge whenever Arc System Works is mentioned.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Of course people keep forgetting about Ragna the Bloodedge whenever Arc System Works is mentioned.

Chances are given Sol and Guilty Gear came first it'd be more likely he'd get in before Ragna. BlazBlue I honestly would see getting an Spirit Event at most.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I think it's a hairsplit to say Hero wasn't expected just because it's 4 alts.
That doesn't make it unexpected as a character choice, just unexpected execution.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So you are telling me that two costumes that were at least running in November need so much playtesting so they can be ready for release in maybe June before the delays. And this playtest only had these two costumes and none of the other 10 that would have needed playtest soon. I'm guessing these two must have some really complex programming if they need a half a year of playtesting and priority over other costumes.

I'm telling you the idea there was just this bit does not mean other stuff didn't exist to be taken. What I'm telling you is there's no reason ever for them to show more than that.

Because it begs the question. Why does the "leak" only have two costumes that have yet to be released and not any of the other 10 that were released between the "leak" and now? The simple answer is "it's fake".

Yeah, the simple answer is "they don't need to show anything else." This isn't a useful question on your part. You've been told countless times leaks are piecemeals and why people consistently do not grab everything at once. Ignoring it won't make it change. This is a fair conclusion on your part and all, but that doesn't make it the only logical conclusion either.

Fighter Pass 6 is the ARMS character, so if these were for that pack then they don't imply any characters (which is what people look at this leak for anyway). Licensing is irrelevant here because we are talking about how long it takes to make them, and here we are talking about a costume which is taking 9 months to make.

Or it took 2 or 3 months to make. We don't know when the costumes were actually gotten. They had literally at least 5 months by now to make a presentation. Unlike the silly "editing" bit brought up, they don't have anything set in stone anymore we can tell. In addition, we don't know when the costumes could be licensed. They could've been licensed any time before September 2019. They might not even be meant for Challenger Pack 6. Again, it's Challenger Pack. Fighter's Pass is multiple characters. I do agree if they aren't with ARMS or Challenger Pack 7 it's likely fake. But they were probably never gotten for Fighter's Pass 1 as a whole.

There are plenty of reasons not to do one as well. Maybe the team is smaller. Maybe they didn't intend to keep Mii characters going and don't want to license them. They already said they added their last mode so why not kill the character thing too. Nintendo hasn't confirmed any costume packs. It's onoly character/stage/music so there is no reason to believe they will do other things unless they say otherwise.

This sounds kind of silly at this point. Sure, it's possible. But no good reason to believe why they would do that. There's nothing to suggest their team is smaller. This basically is a poor point to make when there's little chance of there not being Mii Costumes again.

It's usually in the start of the videos. He's mentioned it in Banjo and Byleth I believe.
Id and Nintendo talking is irrelevant because we have a starting timeframe in November (when the leak came out). We don't need to speculate on that.

It matters a lot more than you think. In order for it to be part of Challenger Pack 5 at the latest, that means that they were licensed closer to when Sans was. If they were licensed way later

In otherwords, he saw the video just before it went live. This isn't the same thing and what we are looking at here.

A leak is a leak is a leak. Sorry, but you can't pick and choose here and expect it to be a reasonable point. People knew Mii costumes beforehand. You were wrong about that bit.

Let me just clarify the argument with this. When this was supposedly taken in November, there was still other content that has not been released. They aren't going to be working on everything at once since things have to come out at certain times. So if it take six months to make a character and its suppose to come out in January, then you'd need to start in June/July. The costumes likely take less time than the character. So let's say that these were for FP 7, and let's say this was going to be in June but was delayed because of COVID-19. So why would they be working on something for a character that wont release in seven to eight months when they have stuff that will release in the near future (also, we don't know how long it takes to make costumes. Sakurai ha said characters take half a year and those costumes are definitely not 6 months of work). They aren't going to be working on a Mii Fighter costume and sit on it for 6 months. Based on the video, it was probably close to being done. There is no reason to think it needs that much debugging. So why would they working on something this far in advance?

...COVID-19 didn't actually really affect much till quite a bit later, man. The actual issues came up during 2020. More realistically they intended to release ARMS a lot sooner.

I think the problem is, again, you are giving the leak the benefit of the doubt and are not asking the questions. What kills most rumors is time. If it doesn't happen, it's not true. It's been about six months now and we haven't seen either of these costumes show up. It's not unreasonable to believe that this could have been a mod, and there is nothing in the leak that has been confirmed. So the simplest answer is it's fake.

I don't ask ridiculous questions like "why didn't they show anything else" cause I've seen tons of true leaks that don't have 100% of the details. It's not a worthwhile question to ever ask. They just don't work that way.

There's more than enough reason to believe it wasn't ready for a presentation. And this is where you're wrong about the presentations. What Sakurai said was Terry was unfinished during his original reveal, not the presentation. Terry was completely done during that. Same with Byleth. They literally were released immediately. The Mii costumes could not have been in playtesting in November.

Here's something to keep in mind; Hero, Banjo, Terry, and Byleth were all recorded around the same time. Banjo released on September 4th. However, then Hero was released on July 30th. So we're talking about the time of Byleth being recorded in as late as... June. Do you honestly think those costumes would be ready by June alone? This is about when the presentations were recorded. So they'd need to be remotely presentable at that point. Them being in a presented state doesn't matter in November either. This is why the whole idea they were "already ready" doesn't make sense. Are you saying they were started on around a year ago? Let's be real now, no, they clearly weren't. Then yes, coming with Byleth could've made sense. There's no timeframe for them to be started and still be out by Byleth either. They would've been presentable, even if an eh state if we want to go that route. Sans also is notable. It was more than 6 months ago it was ready. And it was ready by at least early August to be presented by. It's far more like Cacomallow, which I don't even lean towards it being real, wasn't licensed till way later. In time for Fighter's Pass 2, and at the earliest, Challenger Pack 6, which was likely to come out this month if it weren't for various potential delays. And even if it didn't, Mii Costume packs do not come out "separately". They are tied with a purchase. It's a stretch to think it ever had a chance to come out after Byleth was done but before ARMS existed. So yes, it was ARMS or nothing at this point.

Now, I will note they could've been presentable state by June too, sure. But then that begs the question, why would they be leaked then? Now this does suggest fake, but it also just as much suggests they were for Fighter's Pass 2. So the timeframe really is realistically "It was first planned for ARMS" at that point. That's all the timeframe points to. Whether ARMS was delayed or not doesn't matter, of course.

And it's probably fake due to the only piece if undeniable evidence, the videos still up.

Fixed some dates, apologies about that.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think it's a hairsplit to say Hero wasn't expected just because it's 4 alts.
That doesn't make it unexpected as a character choice, just unexpected execution.

I think it depends on how you look at it: If you consider the character of Hero to be all four heroes wrapped into one, then Hero was not expected, as everyone was laser focused on Erdrick, who isn't even the default costume. If you consider the character of Hero to be a Dragon Quest protagonist, then Hero was expected, as people did expect a Dragon Quest protagonist.

 

[PeridotGX]

Given we also had gotten ArcSystem as an spirit event Sol Badguy is another unexpected character we could see.

I'd hardly consider Sol Badguy or Hayabusa "unexpected". You want actual suprises? Maxwell. Quote. Grovyle. These are characters I don't here anyone talk about.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think it's a hairsplit to say Hero wasn't expected just because it's 4 alts.
That doesn't make it unexpected as a character choice, just unexpected execution.

It's not a hairsplit.

People weren't expecting a generic Hero here. They were expecting specifically Erdrick as is. Very few expected alts or any other form as the face.

It took extra leaks beyond Brave for people to start thinking otherwise. Another user, who I forget his name, was the first one to leak alts. This got alts as an idea down. Leakers speculated on Brave being Edrick, which led to purely "Is he Erdrick or someone else who could be courageous, like Agumon?".

Hero is an Avatar of sorts. Erdrick is a specific person in the context. People did not heavily speculate about an Avatar for a very long time. That's the key difference.

What Brave was pretty much is "Brave means Yuusha, which translate to Hero, which means it's entirely Erdrick." That's the start of the discussion. Yes, alts came up later. But a lot later. It wasn't the normal idea. Barely any expected an alt situation, no less Luminary.

 

[SNEKeater]

Chances are given Sol and Guilty Gear came first it'd be more likely he'd get in before Ragna. BlazBlue I honestly would see getting an Spirit Event at most.

IIRC Blazblue is a bit more popular than Guilty Gear in Japan. Outside of there I think GG has more presence.

While I'd rather have Sol over Ragna, I think that the only real advantage Sol has is being part of an older franchise (1998 vs 2008) which obviously gives him more history and a closer status to being the mascot of ArcSys. It's not like they have an established mascot, but most of times the classic franchise is the way to go when it comes to represent a developer.

I'd hardly consider Sol Badguy or Hayabusa "unexpected". You want actual suprises? Maxwell. Quote. Grovyle. These are characters I don't here anyone talk about.

Ehhh I don't think Sol and Hayabusa are in the same league. Hayabusa was strongly discussed during 2019, so even the people who didn't know about him now are somewhat familiar with him. Even without leaks Ninja Gaiden should be more familiar to people.
Sol's still rarely mentioned as a serious candidate. Maybe here he's more discussed in comparison other places (thanks to his loyal supporters lol) but nothing more. I see people talking about him on Twitter from time to time in relation to Smash, but not really that much.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'd hardly consider Sol Badguy or Hayabusa "unexpected". You want actual suprises? Maxwell. Quote. Grovyle. These are characters I don't here anyone talk about.

People dismiss Quote (and even don't want him) because of the company that owns him...

I still think he should be the first playable indie character in Super Smash Bros.

What Brave was pretty much is "Brave means Yuusha, which translate to Hero,, which means it's entirely Erdrick." That's the start of the discussion. Yes, alts came up later. But a lot later. It wasn't the normal idea. Barely any expected an alt situation, no less Luminary.

There was one alt that people thought was likely (Erdrick, but a girl), but it didn't make it into the game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There was one alt that people thought was likely (Erdrick, but a girl), but it didn't make it into the game.

Luminary was slightly talked about. But for the most part, Erdrick drowned out everything.

It was good to see it wasn't actually as correct as people thought.

Though to clear, I meant completely different people alts. The idea he could have Eight or Luminary or anyone else as an alt was not a topic for a long time.

 

[Garteam]

...Not really?

They can do literally the same stuff. You can substitute slime's ability to shapeshift or use Slime Knight's skills for every sword move.

Slime can perform all the same spells in general. Albeit, not any different from how each Hero can't use every spell in the list. Slime is a massive spellcaster in his own starring roles(Dragon Quest Monsters).

The only thing Hero really had besides being the protagonist of the franchise in general is that you couldn't really do alts to represent tons of games. Nor show off equipment at all otherwise. To clarify, the alts kind of show off equipment, but only a bit. More specifically, changing out weapons/armors/shields is something only Hero can do, but doesn't as a gameplay mechanic.

So overall it's just a protagonist thing at best. Also, Hero could borrow assets way better than Slime, so he was clearly easier to make.

There's far more to Dragon Quest than just spells though. A young adult with a fancy sword and shield using unrefined swordsplay is far more accurate to the general location and characters of Dragon Quest than a wacky, shapeshifting ball of goop. It's like having a tyrant playable in the place of Chris, Jill, or Leon for Resident Evil, it's just not a good representation of the overall setting.

Likewise, Hero's playstyle is about as accurate to Dragon Quest's gameplay as you could reasonably get in constructing a character. Subpar normals that are supplemented by powerful specials that run on a limited resource is pretty accurate to the way you have to play Dragon Quest. Only use the standard attack commando and forego spells entirely? You could win, but you're at a major disadvantage from your opponents. Spam spells to dominate your opponents? Things will work out for awhile, but you'll run out of MP and be up the creek without a paddle. To win in both Dragon Quest and Smash (when playing as a Hero), you need to do the same thing: Strategically use your spells to gain the upperhand, while properly managing your MP so you can last the whole.

Part of the reason this system works because Hero's swordplay is generic and underplayed both aesthetically and in gameplay. If you want a dedicated sword user, you choose Cloud, a Fire Emblem character, or even one of the Links instead. This lets Hero's magic system shine as the key of his moveset. Now, assuming Slime was playable with Hero's magic but a set of neutrals based on transformations, there's now competition between two elements of his playstyle. Some people will want to play Slime for his shapeshifting gimmick while others will want to play him for the magic gimmick. It's then far more ambiguous on how to properly balance his moveset. If you make his shapeshifting neutrals purposely mediocre, those who wish to primarily use those attacks will resent the fact a character with interesting theme is underpowered to punish them for using said theme. If make his neutrals powerful, you lose the aspect of the character that makes his gameplay in Smash match the gameplay in Dragon Quest.

 

[ARandomFruit]

If you want a unexpected pick you can throw all logic and reasoning and whatever out the window and bring up Hyde from Undernight Inbirth. I don't think anyone would be expecting him for.. Very obvious reasons.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It's like having a tyrant playable in the place of Chris, Jill, or Leon for Resident Evil, it's just not a good representation of the overall setting.

*Flashbacks to Marvel Vs. Capcom Infinite*

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There's far more to Dragon Quest than just spells though. A young adult with a fancy sword and shield using unrefined swordsplay is far more accurate to the general location and characters of Dragon Quest than a wacky, shapeshifting ball of goop. It's like having a tyrant playable in the place of Chris, Jill, or Leon for Resident Evil, it's just not a good representation of the overall setting.

So equipment, yes. Random Encounters are a key part of RPG's too and the only other thing besides equipment not actually in Hero's moveset. I'm not saying Hero was a bad choice, but the moveset isn't the thing special about him at all. Those are not things only Hero alone can do.

Likewise, Hero's playstyle is about as accurate to Dragon Quest's gameplay as you could reasonably get in constructing a character. Subpar normals that are supplemented by powerful specials that run on a limited resource is pretty accurate to the way you have to play Dragon Quest. Only use the standard attack commando and forego spells entirely? You could win, but you're at a major disadvantage from your opponents. Spam spells to dominate your opponents? Things will work out for awhile, but you'll run out of MP and be up the creek without a paddle. To win in both Dragon Quest and Smash (when playing as a Hero), you need to do the same thing: Strategically use your spells to gain the upperhand, while properly managing your MP so you can last the whole.

...This can be done by Slime either way, so. Point stands. Slime can represent the same things that Hero can except being the series-wide protagonist.

Part of the reason this system works because Hero's swordplay is generic and underplayed both aesthetically and in gameplay. If you want a dedicated sword user, you choose Cloud, a Fire Emblem character, or even one of the Links instead. This lets Hero's magic system shine as the key of his moveset. Now, assuming Slime was playable with Hero's magic but a set of neutrals based on transformations, there's now competition between two elements of his playstyle. Some people will want to play Slime for his shapeshifting gimmick while others will want to play him for the magic gimmick. It's then far more ambiguous on how to properly balance his moveset. If you make his shapeshifting neutrals purposely mediocre, those who wish to primarily use those attacks will resent the fact a character with interesting theme is underpowered to punish them for using said theme. If make his neutrals powerful, you lose the aspect of the character that makes his gameplay in Smash match the gameplay in Dragon Quest.

I mean, that just makes Slime... more unique?

Both match the point of being a representation of Dragon Quest fine. One just doesn't represent the protagonist part. They represent different things to begin with. But both don't have an issue moveset-wise that shows off DQ's massive techniques either way. Critical Hits, Magic, and various Cut abilities alone aren't a Hero-specific thing. The reality is Slime was designed later on to be able to do that kind of stuff.

As I said again, what Slime cannot do is be a series-wise protagonist nor can he represent equipment well. And that makes sense why Hero was chosen, cause he wanted the protagonist, not the mascot(just like in Animal Crossing, heh). Alts technically represent other equipment, but that's not why they're there. So the only real difference between them is Slime would represent Random Encounters over Protagonists.

I don't disagree with the story stuff, but that's a completely different thing from the moveset. The moveset isn't there to really represent a protagonist going through battles constantly. He doesn't have some kind of damage meter that shows he's gotten tougher. There's no level up mechanic that actually represents the story of playing through an RPG and getting better. Hero simply does not have that. And that's fine. That wasn't his point. It's more he was chosen because he's the person that you use overall, which is why I say "cause he's the protagonist". The idea he somehow represents becoming better through battles does not get represented in Smash to begin with. Nor did it have to. I'd have loved it, but that's not his actual design.

 

[pupNapoleon]

It's not a hairsplit.

People weren't expecting a generic Hero here. They were expecting specifically Erdrick as is. Very few expected alts or any other form as the face.

It took extra leaks beyond Brave for people to start thinking otherwise. Another user, who I forget his name, was the first one to leak alts. This got alts as an idea down. Leakers speculated on Brave being Edrick, which led to purely "Is he Erdrick or someone else who could be courageous, like Agumon?".

Hero is an Avatar of sorts. Erdrick is a specific person in the context. People did not heavily speculate about an Avatar for a very long time. That's the key difference.

What Brave was pretty much is "Brave means Yuusha, which translate to Hero, which means it's entirely Erdrick." That's the start of the discussion. Yes, alts came up later. But a lot later. It wasn't the normal idea. Barely any expected an alt situation, no less Luminary.

I think a lot of people were just expecting a character from Dragon Quest.
The fact that four, unaffecting costume changes give us four characters in Dragon Quest hardly means anything, and literally means nothing from a gameplay perspective.

I suppose you, and maybe others, could say this- but a fair number of people felt that a Dragon Quest character, protagonist for otherwise, would get in. I think Smash Puppy says it well, below.

Moptimus- Dragon Quest was a highly speculated series before 'Brave' was ever released as a codename. Dragon Quest is the top RPG in Japan- of course it was noticed.

The only thing unexpected that matters is the randomization gimmick. Sure. THAT was unpredicted. That would be an argument to which I could concede. The characters themselves? Irrelevant in this case.

I think it depends on how you look at it: If you consider the character of Hero to be all four heroes wrapped into one, then Hero was not expected, as everyone was laser focused on Erdrick, who isn't even the default costume. If you consider the character of Hero to be a Dragon Quest protagonist, then Hero was expected, as people did expect a Dragon Quest protagonist.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think a lot of people were just expecting a character from Dragon Quest.

History shows otherwise. People were definitely not expecting the general class at all.

The fact that four, unaffecting costume changes give us four characters in Dragon Quest hardly means anything, and literally means nothing from a gameplay perspective.

It means everything. People were not actually expecting this.

I suppose you, and maybe others, could say this- but a fair number of people felt that a Dragon Quest character, protagonist for otherwise, would get in. I think Smash Puppy says it well, below.

Not exactly. It didn't really exist here. Almost no one was calling for the class/avatar.

Moptimus- Dragon Quest was a highly speculated series before 'Brave' was ever released as a codename. Dragon Quest is the top RPG in Japan- of course it was noticed.

It was barely honestly brought up much. Yes, it had support topics, but it wasn't really till Erdrick was brought up by Verge speculation became a major thing.

The only thing unexpected that matters is the randomization gimmick. Sure. THAT was unpredicted. That would be an argument to which I could concede. The characters themselves? Irrelevant in this case.

...In what world were the alts constantly called? That was not heavily predicted. Barely anyone talked about it or expected it.

Those took leaks.

The general consensus was it was Erdrick or a specific Hero at best for an extremely long time, even up to the actual reveal.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

name one person speculating SNK before CJ the Intern leaked the SNK trademark

you talking about nakoruru and believing in a stranger on the internet talking about birds doesn't count

Bruh, here’s a whole ****ing page worth of SNK

https://smashboards.com/threads/newcomer-dlc-speculation-discussion.453424/page-139#post-23119154

Very few people can take the credit for predicting one of the four DQ Heroes. Verge is literally the only reason why DQ speculation wasn't limited to the occasional conversation about Slime.

Banjo is the only character who I saw people frequently predict without a rumor influencing them. Joker and Terry were nonexistent, and Byleth was only brought up on the astronomically low chance that F5 wasn't third-party.

it doesn’t matter who was first to mention a DQ hero or even which one it is a DQ hero was speculated since BEFORE DLC. Erdrick specifically. And we got Erdrick. I’m even of the opinion that the only reason Terry is called a “Dark Horse“ was because people just weren’t paying attention. People were mentioning SNK a good bit for how unlikely it seemed and yeah, most people brushed them off because we thought the characters we wanted were more likely because of bias.

So, I’m of the opinion that 3 out of the 5 were actually well speculated and even 4 if you throw in NintenZ and DaybreakHorizon as huge Joker fans speculating about Joker. But 2 with Hero and Banjo is the most fair.

 

[pupNapoleon]

History shows otherwise. People were definitely not expecting the general class at all.


It means everything. People were not actually expecting this.


Not exactly. It didn't really exist here. Almost no one was calling for the class/avatar.


It was barely honestly brought up much. Yes, it had support topics, but it wasn't really till Erdrick was brought up by Verge speculation became a major thing.


...In what world were the alts constantly called? That was not heavily predicted. Barely anyone talked about it or expected it.

Those took leaks.

The general consensus was it was Erdrick or a specific Hero at best for an extremely long time, even up to the actual reveal.

Listen- I feel like I've been responding to you all day with your anecdotal reasons of what you experienced.
My experience was contrary to yours. Not only did I personally think that any protagonist of the game, or even Slime, could get in, but I saw it al the time.
There is literally no difference between the alts. I think it is foolish and unfounded to claim that 'not calling four alt characters' makes a character unexpected.

Let's refer to Bowser Jr.
Was he speculated? In my eyes, yes. But he was speculated as a kid with a paint brush. I did not see speculation of the alts, but more importantly, I didnt see speculation that he would come in the Koopa Klown Kar.

It sounds to me like youre making the claim that Dragon Quest hero was similar- except not using any data; not the comparison, not the relation to the moves, not the actual shock of gameplay. None of that is part of your argument. So it's difficult to actually claim this is what youre stating.

To that I would say- yes- the shock of Hero is that he has random mechanics. The fact that he has an alt character? Not important. I didnt speculate that we would get a bathing suit Shulk- that didnt make the entire character unexpected.

Bruh, here’s a whole ****ing page worth of SNK

https://smashboards.com/threads/newcomer-dlc-speculation-discussion.453424/page-139#post-23119154


it doesn’t matter who was first to mention a DQ hero or even which one it is a DQ hero was speculated since BEFORE DLC. Erdrick specifically. And we got Erdrick. I’m even of the opinion that the only reason Terry is called a “Dark Horse“ was because people just weren’t paying attention. People were mentioning SNK a good bit for how unlikely it seemed and yeah, most people brushed them off because we thought the characters we wanted were more likely because of bias.

So, I’m of the opinion that 3 out of the 5 were actually well speculated and even 4 if you throw in NintenZ and DaybreakHorizon as huge Joker fans speculating about Joker. But 2 with Hero and Banjo is the most fair.

This^^^

 

[PLATINUM7]

History shows otherwise. People were definitely not expecting the general class at all.


It means everything. People were not actually expecting this.


Not exactly. It didn't really exist here. Almost no one was calling for the class/avatar.


It was barely honestly brought up much. Yes, it had support topics, but it wasn't really till Erdrick was brought up by Verge speculation became a major thing.


...In what world were the alts constantly called? That was not heavily predicted. Barely anyone talked about it or expected it.

Those took leaks.

The general consensus was it was Erdrick or a specific Hero at best for an extremely long time, even up to the actual reveal.

There were plenty of people predicting the potential for two alts, being the DQIII and XI heroes.

 

[Powerman293]

If this DLC season is supposed to go out with a bang, they should at least make alternate character costumes on top of Mii Costumes.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Special shout out to Sari for calling SNK before anyone.

On the topic of SNK, I did a really big write-up on the RTC thread not too long ago about the chances of us getting an SNK character. It took me over 2 days to write so I encourage you all to check it out.

In a nutshell, I think an SNK character in Smash is far from impossible considering:

• The legacy of the NEO GEO.
• SNK's main FG competition (Tekken & Mortal Kombat) seeming less likely to appear in Smash.
• SNK being very open with their IPs (Geese in Tekken 7, Mai in DoA 5+6, and Terry in EX Fighting Layer to name a few).
• Increasing relations with Nintendo recently (including a proposed offer to make SNK Heroines a Switch exclusive).
• SNK being insanely popular in Latin America & China.
• Other reasons described in the thread.

Terry is definitely the most likely SNK character but Kyo is still my most personal wanted.
Obligatory Kyo support thread post.

 

[pupNapoleon]

There were plenty of people predicting the potential for two alts, being the DQIII and XI heroes.

We are literally at a he said/she said. It doesn't seem to matter that multiple people are coming in directly stating that they saw a plethora of support of multiple DQ characters.

Special shout out to Sari for calling SNK before anyone.

I had no idea SNK Heroines was proposed as a Switch exclusive. That would have been incredible.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

So I guess we can agree that most of the remaining DLC fighters will be unexpected characters barring 1 maybe 2 fan favorites because that's what I'm thinking at this point.

I also suspect at least two 1st party characters (The ARMS rep included).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

(For the record, I hate constantly being mass tagged).

Huh, I remembered wrong then.

But no, thinking Hero with Alts was a thing and thinking Erdrick was a thing were completely different observations.

Him having at most one alt isn't the same thing as thinking he was going to represent a bunch of Heroes. That's actual revisionalism.

There was tons of unique speculations on Hero, and they didn't always match up. A lot hated the idea he could be Luminary first cause it simply wasn't Erdrick. Mostly cause "screw advertisement picks!" or "they would only choose the most important to show it off, doesn't matter if he's recognizable or not". These existed too.

He was all over the place, and I didn't legitimately know some bits and pieces, so my bad.

 

[pupNapoleon]

So I guess we can agree that most of the remaining DLC fighters will be unexpected characters barring 1 maybe 2 fan favorites because that's what I'm thinking at this point.

I also suspect at least two 1st party characters (The ARMS rep included).

Nope.
You thinking something doesnt mean we can all agree on it.

There are a half dozen people who posted right above you who don't think majority of the first pass was unexpected.

(For the record, I hate constantly being mass tagged).

Huh, I remembered wrong then.

But no, thinking Hero with Alts was a thing and thinking Erdrick was a thing were completely different observations.

Him having at most one alt isn't the same thing as thinking he was going to represent a bunch of Heroes. That's actual revisionalism.

There was tons of unique speculations on Hero, and they didn't always match up. A lot hated the idea he could be Luminary first cause it simply wasn't Erdrick. Mostly cause "screw advertisement picks!" or "they would only choose the most important to show it off, doesn't matter if he's recognizable or not". These existed too.

He was all over the place, and I didn't legitimately know some bits and pieces, so my bad.

I dont personally intend to target you.
You just keep claiming things for the masses, and then are told by many that you don't speak for the masses.
And then claiming it's untrue.

 

[Cosmic77]

Bruh, here’s a whole ****ing page worth of SNK

https://smashboards.com/threads/newcomer-dlc-speculation-discussion.453424/page-139#post-23119154


it doesn’t matter who was first to mention a DQ hero or even which one it is a DQ hero was speculated since BEFORE DLC. Erdrick specifically. And we got Erdrick. I’m even of the opinion that the only reason Terry is called a “Dark Horse“ was because people just weren’t paying attention. People were mentioning SNK a good bit for how unlikely it seemed and yeah, most people brushed them off because we thought the characters we wanted were more likely because of bias.

So, I’m of the opinion that 3 out of the 5 were actually well speculated and even 4 if you throw in NintenZ and DaybreakHorizon as huge Joker fans speculating about Joker. But 2 with Hero and Banjo is the most fair.

I think you're misinterpreting my point.

Before Verge said anything about a DQ rep, how many people were predicting one of the four Heroes? If we were to go back to before he put the idea in people's heads, can you honestly say that Erdrick was a character a lot of people were expecting?

As for Joker, Terry, and Byleth, I don't even know someone could pretend like they were predictable. A couple of people on Smashboards liking Joker and Terry doesn't change the fact that they were hardly ever brought up when talking about characters who were most likely to be added as DLC. Byleth might've been an obvious choice if he were one of the first two characters, but most people dead set on the fifth fighter completing the "third-party pass". Dante and KOS-MOS were who people were predicting as F5, not Byleth.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think you're misinterpreting my point.

Before Verge said anything about a DQ rep, how many people were predicting one of the four Heroes? If we were to go back to before he put the idea in people's heads, can you honestly say that Erdrick was a character a lot of people were expecting?

As for Joker, Terry, and Byleth, I don't even know someone could pretend like they were predictable. A couple of people on Smashboards liking Joker and Terry doesn't change the fact that they were hardly ever brought up when talking about characters who were most likely to be added as DLC. Byleth might've been an obvious choice if he were one of the first two characters, but most people dead set on the fifth fighter completing the "third-party pass". Dante and KOS-MOS were who people were predicting as F5, not Byleth.

Do you mean the Square Seven leak or later when he confirmed Edrick as DLC? Those were separate leaks.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I think you're misinterpreting my point.

Before Verge said anything about a DQ rep, how many people were predicting one of the four Heroes? If we were to go back to before he put the idea in people's heads, can you honestly say that Erdrick was a character a lot of people were expecting?

As for Joker, Terry, and Byleth, I don't even know someone could pretend like they were predictable. A couple of people on Smashboards liking Joker and Terry doesn't change the fact that they were hardly ever brought up when talking about characters who were most likely to be added as DLC. Byleth might've been an obvious choice if he were one of the first two characters, but most people dead set on the fifth fighter completing the "third-party pass". Dante and KOS-MOS were who people were predicting as F5, not Byleth.

I believe you’re misinterpreting mine as well. The point I’m trying to make is that, yeah, on here? Maybe a lot of people weren’t talking about Hero or Terry. But in Japan? Hero was always there. In Latin America? SNK was always there. Joker and Byleth were a surprise I absolutely agree.

We just never look outside our little box. Like, ever.