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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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SMAASH! Puppy

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If you're not playable then you're insignificant.
There are many non-playable characters that still make an impact. Most notably boss and lore characters.

Also if I, a fan of those characters, don't like what they did to them then it should be viewed as a slight against them since they failed the fan service part.
A genuine attempt at fanservice doesn't become an insult just because it didn't appeal to every single fan of the character. For example, I don't like how Lucario plays in this game, but that doesn't make his implementation a slight against the character.
 
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Knight Dude

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Big difference there is that Mario is actually playable which will always be the most important thing when it comes to Smash Bros. If you're not playable then you're insignificant. Nobody boots up a fighting game so they can see what NPCs are added in, they want to play the game. Also if I, a fan of those characters, don't like what they did to them then it should be viewed as a slight against them since they failed the fan service part.


People keep going on on how Sakurai should take a break, so how about we lighten the work load by having him stop wasting time on making Assist Trophies? Not everyone can be playable but I would be fine if they don't bother making them an Assist Trophy because that waste a lot of development time that can literally go anywhere else. I rather they took all that time & money they spent on Assist Trophies and go to a beach and relax, it's a way better use that way. Nothing is beneficial from being an Assist Trophy, in fact most series died after they became Assist Trophies in Brawl because the games featuring those characters that came out a year or two later sold terribly and they never had another game since. Starfy, Golden Sun, and Sin & Punishment, all had game after Brawl and never had another one ever since.

As for your last part, Duck Hunt was one of the corner stone of the NES where they had the game attach with the original Super Mario Bros and Wii Fit was extremely successful that also represented fitness games in Smash Bros roster. Piranha Plant is generic enemy #3, an extremely low pedigree when compared to the other two me thinks. Understandable that the other two gets in, but if you lose to the third enemy that you don't get to see until the second level of the original Super Mario Bros then that character must be considered an extreme loser. So much so that Sakurai rather had thought of how to make a potted plant work as a fighter than waste time thinking of a potential moveset for the other.
Normally, I don't bother with you acting so annoying. But I can only imagine what kind of tangents you'd go on if you played MVC1 back in the day, and talked about how Arthur is a "loser" compared to Captain Commando or something.
 

ZephyrZ

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I think sometimes people forget that Smash Bros isn't meant to be some sort of hall of fame for the most popular characters, but rather that its just supposed to be fun. That's why we get weird characters like Piranha Plant and ROB sometimes.

By all means, every keep speculating but don't take who does or doesn't get in so seriously.
 
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ZelDan

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Apparently Sakurai thinks Joker and Terry are lame since he added them after Pirahna Plant.

Despite the fact he is a huge fan of both persona 5 and Fatal Fury and probably SNK's other stuff
 

NonSpecificGuy

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Please remember that the ignore function is there for your own benefit.

With that said.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Apparently Sakurai thinks Joker and Terry are lame since he added them after Pirahna Plant.

Despite the fact he is a huge fan of both persona 5 and Fatal Fury and probably SNK's other stuff
It's still kinda surreal to me it took this long to get Terry despite how much Smash took from KoF ever since Smash 64 and still did in Ultimate even before Terry got added, ****'s especially wild if you look back at every time someone screams Sakurai bias
 

Hadokeyblade

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It's still kinda surreal to me it took this long to get Terry despite how much Smash took from KoF ever since Smash 64 and still did in Ultimate even before Terry got added, ****'s especially wild if you look back at every time someone screams Sakurai bias
He probably had enough self control to ask for the really big name third parties first like Cloud and Pacman.
 

Hinata

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It's still kinda surreal to me it took this long to get Terry despite how much Smash took from KoF ever since Smash 64 and still did in Ultimate even before Terry got added, ****'s especially wild if you look back at every time someone screams Sakurai bias
He held back until he was fully confident in his ability to give Terry his entire Fatal Fury moveset.
 

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It's still kinda surreal to me it took this long to get Terry despite how much Smash took from KoF ever since Smash 64 and still did in Ultimate even before Terry got added, ****'s especially wild if you look back at every time someone screams Sakurai bias
I think each DLC has a lot going for each Joker being as stylish and fresh as he is kicked off the DLC great, Hero finally making it in after years of DQ fans asking, Banjo making it in after years of fans asking and calling back to the N64 days of Rare and solidifying even more Nintendo’s relationship with Microsoft, Terry calling back to the legacy of SNK and Fatal Fury being the other grandfather of the Fighting Genre, and Byleth promoting and solidifying Three Houses as an achievement.

I do think Terry is the most fun to play though. It’s crazy how fun it is to pull of Buster Wolf and Power Geyer. Terry is the most fun I’ve had in a DLC character to date.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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I personally use Byleth a lot, though it could be because choice paralysis causes me to pick who's at the center of the screen. lol

Still though, I think Byleth, Terry, Joker, and Piranha Plant are tons of fun and I'll probably feel the same about the ARMS character even if I also think they were done dirty.

Can't wait to see who's next, and what they'll bring to the table.

And if it's Amaterasu I will literally die of happiness, so it's probably a good thing that her chances are zero point an infinite number of zeroes, and then a one at the end.
 

Plank08

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Y’know I’m wondering:
Undertale has yet to get a Spirit Event, even thought Toby fox woulad be totally down with it, and cuphead got one like a couple weeks after their costume....
Sans..?
 

JCKirbs

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I'm thinking that the Kirby series has very low chance of getting a 4th rep for DLC.
Considering that franchises like Donkey Kong, Metroid, and Fire Emblem got some fresh faces on the roster, I personally think that it’d be weird to witness the ever-so thriving Kirby franchise go even more than 12+ years across two entries without a single new rep. Especially someone who could rep not only a core era of the Kirby franchise, but also a species that has been with the franchise since the very beginning.

Although, I can’t imagine that the scope of Ultimate’s DLC revolves around being “fair”, so who knows at this point.
 

Curious Villager

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As someone who is still waiting for about a decade for their most wanted to have their existence acknowledged even once.

I'd rather receive some closure through spirit events or Mii costumes over having to walk home empty handed.

But that's just me,
Moving on...
 
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Dutch Raikuna

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It's still kinda surreal to me it took this long to get Terry despite how much Smash took from KoF ever since Smash 64 and still did in Ultimate even before Terry got added, ****'s especially wild if you look back at every time someone screams Sakurai bias
He held back until he was fully confident in his ability to give Terry his entire Fatal Fury moveset.
Gotta ask and as someone who has only played a bit of King of Fighters 98' but how did the SNK fighting games influence Smash Bros? Is it the special moves or game speed?

Been looking for it but haven't seem to find anything. Or maybe my brain isn't working today.
 

PLATINUM7

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Gotta ask and as someone who has only played a bit of King of Fighters 98' but how did the SNK fighting games influence Smash Bros? Is it the special moves or game speed?

Been looking for it but haven't seem to find anything. Or maybe my brain isn't working today.
Some mechanics are shared like dodges and short hops.

But also Sakurai rekt some noobs in KoF '95 and that influenced his design ethos.
https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2...ght_him_to_be_mindful_of_all_types_of_players
 

osby

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Cutie Gwen

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Gotta ask and as someone who has only played a bit of King of Fighters 98' but how did the SNK fighting games influence Smash Bros? Is it the special moves or game speed?

Been looking for it but haven't seem to find anything. Or maybe my brain isn't working today.
As Platinum said, Smash 64 took quite a few mechanics from KoF and those mechanics never left Smash and Sakurai's core inspiration for a fighting game both casuals and core fans could enjoy happened with KoF, but there's also how KoF is a crossover for multiple SNK properties, the Smash Invitation's very clearly based on Rugal's invitation as seen with Terry's trailer using the original intro, Classic Mode slowing down and fading to white when cleared ends the same way a KoF match does, which while basic, really stands out for Terry's Classic Mode and Squad Strike works just like a KoF match
 

Iko MattOrr

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I'm thinking that the Kirby series has very low chance of getting a 4th rep for DLC.
I think that of the already represented franchises, Kirby is the one with the biggest chance of getting a new rep (if not the biggest, almost).
Though I'm not sure about who the character could be... I think it all depends on the next main Kirby game (that will likely be announced soon since Star Allies is more than 2 years old). It can even be a new character from the new game we know nothing about.

I don't think Bandana Dee's (or Adeleine's for what matters) chances are any higher than the ones of any other major Kirby character, given how other important characters such as Dixie Kong, Toad and even Waluigi still aren't in the game and other less relevant ones have been added before them.
It depends on what Sakurai (or whoever takes decisions on the roster) wants.
Star Fox is also missing Peppy and Slippy but I don't see them being added anytime soon.
 
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N3ON

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Let's be real, if Terry wasn't in this game, people wouldn't be surprised that Terry wasn't in this game.
 

Diddy Kong

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It's still kinda surreal to me it took this long to get Terry despite how much Smash took from KoF ever since Smash 64 and still did in Ultimate even before Terry got added, ****'s especially wild if you look back at every time someone screams Sakurai bias
Is King of Fighters that similar to Smash then? Never knew that. Then again, I never knew of Terry, KoF or even SNK before his reveal.
 

Calamitas

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I don't know... remember that one guy who claimed the only reason Terry got in was because Sakurai and Fatal Fury's creator were... you know?
Pretty late response, I know, but I think you can't discuss bad takes on here without bringing up the guy who kept going on about how Joker - or Ren, as they insisted on calling him - should be an Assist Trophy, and that Bomber Man should be playable. All going by his ideas of "iconicness", which is something you can easily measure and probably put into numbers, too.
 

N3ON

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idk about the rest of that but thinking bomberman should be playable is a good take

a damn good take
 

Cutie Gwen

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Is King of Fighters that similar to Smash then? Never knew that. Then again, I never knew of Terry, KoF or even SNK before his reveal.
Short hops, perfect shield, spotdodges, rolling, etc were what made KoF stand out alongside being an crossover of SNK's cast.
Pretty late response, I know, but I think you can't discuss bad takes on here without bringing up the guy who kept going on about how Joker - or Ren, as they insisted on calling him - should be an Assist Trophy, and that Bomber Man should be playable. All going by his ideas of "iconicness", which is something you can easily measure and probably put into numbers, too.
Oh my favourite bad take was from a guy who used a white supremacist youtuber as an avatar claiming that we could sue Nintendo for claiming Bayonetta was the ballot winner to get the real results because of false advertising
 

Guynamednelson

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or Ren, as they insisted on calling him
Because that was his name in the anime, ignoring how he was Akira in the manga and whatever you want in Persona 5 itself.
 
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DanganZilla5

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I don't support what that one guy is proclaiming where we sue Nintendo to get the ballot results, but I do have a suspicion that Bayonetta was not the ballot winner. I didn't see many people support Bayonetta and Bayonetta 2 had just came out the previous year so it just seems really suspicious to me.
 

Zem-raj

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Considering that franchises like Donkey Kong, Metroid, and Fire Emblem got some fresh faces on the roster, I personally think that it’d be weird to witness the ever-so thriving Kirby franchise go even more than 12+ years across two entries without a single new rep. Especially someone who could rep not only a core era of the Kirby franchise, but also a species that has been with the franchise since the very beginning.

Although, I can’t imagine that the scope of Ultimate’s DLC revolves around being “fair”, so who knows at this point.
It took 6 entries for Metroid to finally get a character that wasn't Samus (Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is the sixth game*). Metroid had a single representative until Samus was split in two for Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS and Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (probably because of hardware limitations of the Nintendo 3DS that prevented transformations, and so was kept separate for the WiiU game for consistency reasons). Kirby had 3 representatives by the time of Brawl (the third entry). Metroid is represented by the main protagonist (Samus and Zero Suit Samus, the same person), main antagonist** and most recurring villain (Ridley, Samus' arch-nemesis), and main focus villain of the Metroid Prime Trilogy and part of the Metroid species (Dark Samus, a doppelgänger entity, formerly known as Metroid Prime who absorbed the Phazon suit and Samus' DNA, and is an Echo Fighter in Ultimate).

With this in mind, Metroid is now better represented (character wise) than it was before Ultimate, and in my opinion it doesn't need any more characters (anyone else would be a bonus addition), because we have all of the important representatives already in the game (roles previously stated). Donkey Kong has the main protagonists (Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong) and the main antagonist (King K.Rool). Much like Kirby, it's still missing an essential character - Dixie Kong. I think Bandana Waddle Dee is the likeliest candidate for a Kirby rep (I can see HAL Laboratory wanting to push for him), but it's unknown why he's still not playable yet - it's all speculation and guesswork. You can't blame Metroid and Donkey Kong getting new representatives for lack of "fairness", because the characters added were fan requests that were long overdue for inclusion.

* Smash 64 = Smash 1, Melee = Smash 2, Brawl = Smash 3, for 3DS = Smash 4, for WiiU = Smash 5, Ultimate = Smash 6, as referred to by Sakurai internally.
**Due to the fact that Nintendo use him to represent the Metroid series as the villain in merchandise and promotional materials, not Mother Brain, and for him being more recurring than her.
 

osby

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I don't support what that one guy is proclaiming where we sue Nintendo to get the ballot results, but I do have a suspicion that Bayonetta was not the ballot winner. I didn't see many people support Bayonetta and Bayonetta 2 had just came out the previous year so it just seems really suspicious to me.
Well, they said she got the most amount of votes among "realizable" characters. Regardless of what that means, I think it was pretty obvious that they weren't talking about every voted character.
 

Rie Sonomura

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Agreed. As much as I love Bandanna Dee, I'm not holding my breath for him. I do think he's at least a definite possibility but I'm not willing to go any higher than that.
I think Bandana Dee or any other such character’s chances would need to ride on the “promotion” coattails at this point. Byleth had the ongoing 3H DLC in their favor, and as for the ARMS rep, I have a strong intuition that Nintendo has some big plans for ARMS this year, whether it’s a sequel or that comic they commissioned Dark Horse to do finally coming to fruition.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I don't support what that one guy is proclaiming where we sue Nintendo to get the ballot results, but I do have a suspicion that Bayonetta was not the ballot winner. I didn't see many people support Bayonetta and Bayonetta 2 had just came out the previous year so it just seems really suspicious to me.
It wasn't a poll to win. It was a suggestion box. And they were vague in their wording as is. First, it was implied she got in due to the ballot, not literally stated. It was a "happen to have high votes" thing. And as somebody pointed out, she had high votes among "realizable characters"(number 1 in the UK, top 5 in the US, not noted for JP), which at least is a fairly non-vague term. It means some characters he had no ability to use for whatever reasons. However, the datamine suggests she was already in the game, via the bare minimum of proof of concept and at most was already intended to be playable, so that could alone be what they meant be realizable. Or part of it.

The problem is the details of the ballot's usage was for the JP description only. The idea there was "one winner" is mostly a Western/Middle East-type concept. Especially when people didn't realize that it was "for future Smash games, and that maybe the character will get chosen for Smash 4's DLC". Key term being maybe. It was vastly misunderstood. And we know that the ballot was used for more than one Ultimate Newcomer, making them all winners by design. Since again, it's a suggestion box. The fact that the results were used heavily to determine other cameos makes them all meant to "win" something, which is a spot in the upcoming release. Same with some of the Mii costumes in 4, which may have been ballot suggestions(depending which one. Isabelle and K. Rool, probably. Inkling was a given they'd be in the next game, the blatant and only clear candidate without a doubt. Anybody else were more varied in chancehood, some obviously higher than others). I don't remember if Sakurai talked about consolation prizes, though that is also why people were led to misbelieve it was some kind of zero sum game, when you can have more than one "winner" by getting content.
 
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Garteam

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I don't support what that one guy is proclaiming where we sue Nintendo to get the ballot results, but I do have a suspicion that Bayonetta was not the ballot winner. I didn't see many people support Bayonetta and Bayonetta 2 had just came out the previous year so it just seems really suspicious to me.
I agree, but moreso due to Bayonetta's DLC slot being added to the game's code two weeks after the ballot started. Either negotiations went extremely well and she was decided a few days in, or she was negotiated in advance of the ballot being published.

Either way, it's not like we really have a right to know who ranked well in the ballot and how. You could argue that those who vote in a poll ought to know how everyone ranked, we have multiple characters who were at least influenced from the ballot (Ridley, K. Rool, Cloud, Simon, Richter, Hero). Given how inside baseball Smash's development is, the team has been more than transparent enough about the results.
 

Kokiden

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This DLC cycle has certainly gotten speculation wonky.
We'd be lucky to get 2 fighter (not including the ARMS character) by the end of the year.

Understandable given the circumstances of course. Can't imagine someone genuinely getting mad about it, unless they've got the self awareness of moss.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Good morning everybody!

A few things I’ve been thinking about that might bring in some discussion (really hoping it doesn’t get the “fAn RuLe!” Argument thrown at it, but something to think about.

A few bits of precedent that we could consider going forward with the last 5 DLC choices:

1) Any time a game/series gets into Smash with their first fighter it is either given to the main protagonist, mascot, or the “main cover character”. This has been consistent with every game/series that has been added to Smash.

2) While not always 3rd party, DLC picks have always been the main protagonist of the provided game or series, save for Mewtwo and Piranha Plant, both of whom have specific reasons for their DLC inclusion anyway. I don’t really consider them to be valid detractions from this point but I will hear arguments for it.

There was another point I was going to make, but I actually forgot it, lol.

I think ARMS could break this trend with Min Min getting in over Spring Man, but I’m not actually convinced they will. I don’t really know that the ARMS Party Crash has any relation to Smash, but I wouldn’t even really be disappointed to be wrong about that.

I think the “no upgrades” concept will be broken with Spring Man potentially with a Ribbon Girl alt, which will uphold the “main protagonist first” pattern...it’s a pattern that has been consistent since the very first Smash game. I don’t think it’s impossible to break that precedent, but I’m not actually convinced it will be.

Back during the Wii U/3DS days, there were some folks who absolutely, positively thought that particular side characters were getting in over cover characters/main protags because “popularity”. The primary example I remember is Owain from Fire Emblem Awakening getting in over Chrom, Robin, and Lucina. This obviously wasn’t going to happen, but it’s also reflected in the SNK talks between Terry Bogard and Nakoruru. Yes, Nakoruru could provide interesting gameplay mechanics, but Terry Bogard is the SNK pick. Even if KoF isn’t this massive game everyone knows about, adding somebody over Terry to Smash would be like adding a secondary character in Mortal Kombat over Scorpion or Sub Zero. At least, that’s my perspective.

Anyway, figured I’d post something when it was on my mind. Haven’t been posting recently because it’s been...kinda boring to talk Smash if I’m being honest. Not much to talk about besides ARMS and sometimes Good conversations get killed quickly because people get offended quickly or...something. Maybe it’s dismissive with the popular “fan rule!” argument that gets thrown around WAY too much.

Let me know what you think!
 

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It took 6 entries for Metroid to finally get a character that wasn't Samus (Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is the sixth game*). Metroid had a single representative until Samus was split in two for Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS and Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (probably because of hardware limitations of the Nintendo 3DS that prevented transformations, and so was kept separate for the WiiU game for consistency reasons). Kirby had 3 representatives by the time of Brawl (the third entry). Metroid is represented by the main protagonist (Samus and Zero Suit Samus, the same person), main antagonist** and most recurring villain (Ridley, Samus' arch-nemesis), and main focus villain of the Metroid Prime Trilogy and part of the Metroid species (Dark Samus, a doppelgänger entity, formerly known as Metroid Prime who absorbed the Phazon suit and Samus' DNA, and is an Echo Fighter in Ultimate).

With this in mind, Metroid is now better represented (character wise) than it was before Ultimate, and in my opinion it doesn't need any more characters (anyone else would be a bonus addition), because we have all of the important representatives already in the game (roles previously stated). Donkey Kong has the main protagonists (Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong) and the main antagonist (King K.Rool). Much like Kirby, it's still missing an essential character - Dixie Kong. I think Bandana Waddle Dee is the likeliest candidate for a Kirby rep (I can see HAL Laboratory wanting to push for him), but it's unknown why he's still not playable yet - it's all speculation and guesswork. You can't blame Metroid and Donkey Kong getting new representatives for lack of "fairness", because the characters added were fan requests that were long overdue for inclusion.

* Smash 64 = Smash 1, Melee = Smash 2, Brawl = Smash 3, for 3DS = Smash 4, for WiiU = Smash 5, Ultimate = Smash 6, as referred to by Sakurai internally.
**Due to the fact that Nintendo use him to represent the Metroid series as the villain in merchandise and promotional materials, not Mother Brain, and for him being more recurring than her.
Oh, I wasn’t trying to put the blame, surrounding a lack of a new Kirby character so far, on other franchises like Metroid and Donkey Kong since those franchises have finally gotten their glory days after being poorly represented for far too long.
When I was talking about the word “fair”, I meant that I couldn’t imagine Nintendo/Sakurai automatically saying “Becuase franchises like Metroid and Donkey Kong have gotten new reps after a long time, it would only be fair for Kirby to get a new rep as well.”
That would be an awesome scenario, but it’d probably also be a silly one for a company that’s always wanting to turn a profit.

Also, I agree that even Dixie is still strangely missing from the roster as well, so DK’s core representation still isn’t completed yet.
 

MattX20

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We'd be lucky to get 2 fighter (not including the ARMS character) by the end of the year.

Understandable given the circumstances of course. Can't imagine someone genuinely getting mad about it, unless they've got the self awareness of moss.
My personal guess is that we're going to have 3 characters released by year's end. We did get Terry Bogard in November of last year, so my personal feeling that FP8 is going to release at a similar time frame.
 

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We might also see a fourth REVEAL by the end of the year, but the fourth character isn’t RELEASED until early next year.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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I’d give my two cents with the Bayonetta talk.

Most polling results can be ascertained after a few days where the poll is in the spotlight. It’s highly speculated that many of the top choices were popular characters that made it into Ultimate, many of which were clearly more complex than taking data from within the game to create.

For example, Cloud was based on Ike at one point, while Bayonetta was based on Zero Suit Samus at one point. These are assets being repurposed to make a job easier. Negotiating for Snake, for example, is not as simple as getting Bayonetta and repurposing a characters assets. Chrom could have been seen as an issue at the time given the fact that he was already in the game, and his specific game already had a stage. K.Rool, Ridley, and Banjo for examples couldn’t be simply copied from assets, PKMN Trainer wouldn’t be combined back with Charizard, etc...

I think it’s simply giving credit to the wording. “Among realizable” to me at least, implies that other characters placed higher in some cases, but were not realizable, or the development team wouldn’t be able to make them happen.

I’m sure this won’t be seen as an acceptable scenario, because for whatever reason folks want to run with the conspiracy that “Nintendo lied!” When it really isn’t that serious.
 
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