Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[dezeray112]

Yeah, I was thinking about this too. In a very short timespan, they released KOF XIV, then Geese appeared in Tekken, then Terry got into EX Layer, and now Mai and Kula are in DoA. I think Iori is also in a crossover, but I don't remember which.

Also, a quick reminder that KOF basically started as SNK's own crossover fighter, only getting a more nuanced storyline and its huge cast of original characters later on. So basically, Smash would be, in a way, "paying homage" to one of the first fighting games that brought different franchises together. It's actually a very interesting possibility.

I think its Million Arthur is where Iori Yagami is featured as a guest character.

 

[BlueMonk]

IF we were to get DLC content beyond this pass (which I doubt), what are the chances of us being back a base-game post 8/8 Direct situation? (The stage total ends at 108 for good, and jeopardizes the chances of new series characters while therefore making repped series characters more likely.) I say this because the DLC stages fill out the bottom row, and apparently that empty spot represents custom stages when using online. Unless they expand the length of the stage select screen, or make a DLC tab and move the other stages there, when that comes to pass we might be looking at first parties only from then on.

Would suck for 80% of casuals and probably about 60% of us, who have at least one third party we really want, but I do think that's a possibility for us to account for.



Isn't that available on iOS as well? It debuted on Nintendo consoles, yes, but I'm pretty sure an iOS release is a thing. So Cloud still hasn't shown up on a Nintendo exclusive.

Depending on your (Nquoid's) definition of exclusive, though, I don't believe Ryu or Ken have made any appearances on Nintendo consoles that weren't multiplat. At least, none come to mind.

I wasn't aware of the ios release. I forgot about it when I made my post, but SMT and final fantasy pre-ff7 have big ties with nintendo, so Sakurai may have considered that.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Cloud is the only third party character to not be playable in a Nintendo exclusive title right? Obviously Final Fantasy's history with Nintendo is well documented. But Cloud is the one character who kind of bends the perception towards franchises with a footprint on Nintendo consoles rather than characters

Cloud is playable in Final Fantasy Explorers, a 3DS exclusive.

Smash speculation makes me realize how little I was able to explore games when I was younger. My family was kinda poor growing up so I had to be careful with that games I got. But apparently I am the only one in existence that hasn't played every JRPG, Sony Mascot, and Fighting Game since those are the three most common categories people are wanting characters from. :v

Videogames are prohibitively expensive in my country, and older games and consoles didn't even come out, so most of my childhood was spent emulating every game I could find. That means I got to play a variety of games because I could just try out whatever I wanted. I imagine most people would be stuck with the exclusives to whatever console they had, so that's why many people aren't familiar with the Sony side of things.

As for JRPGs and fighting games, well, there's a ton of them. SFII and Square & Enix's success led to there being a lot of people looking to find gold in those genres. Unlike other genres which are just harder to get characters from (racing games have no movesets, same with sports games, platformers have been dominated by Nintendo, action-adventure is divided into so many tiny genres and most are either sword boys or gun boys).

IF we were to get DLC content beyond this pass (which I doubt), what are the chances of us being back a base-game post 8/8 Direct situation? (The stage total ends at 108 for good, and jeopardizes the chances of new series characters while therefore making repped series characters more likely.) I say this because the DLC stages fill out the bottom row, and apparently that empty spot represents custom stages when using online. Unless they expand the length of the stage select screen, or make a DLC tab and move the other stages there, when that comes to pass we might be looking at first parties only from then on.

Would suck for 80% of casuals and probably about 60% of us, who have at least one third party we really want, but I do think that's a possibility for us to account for.



Isn't that available on iOS as well? It debuted on Nintendo consoles, yes, but I'm pretty sure an iOS release is a thing. So Cloud still hasn't shown up on a Nintendo exclusive.

Depending on your (Nquoid's) definition of exclusive, though, I don't believe Ryu or Ken have made any appearances on Nintendo consoles that weren't multiplat. At least, none come to mind.

No maps would be lame because that means no cool new first party franchises, but at least there's some great characters we could get without a map. Waluigi, Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee, Ashley, Skull Kid, Balloon Fighter, those are the ones that come to mind.

 

[Nquoid]

cloud was in theatrhythm final fantasy. But both Cloud and Joker's nintendo appearances are negligible, I doubt Sakurai considered them when he chose the characters.

I'd argue Persona Q is more significant than theatrhythm, but yes, otherwise negligible.

Depending on your (Nquoid's) definition of exclusive, though, I don't believe Ryu or Ken have made any appearances on Nintendo consoles that weren't multiplat. At least, none come to mind.

Not one of the billion versions of Street Fighter 2 was only on SNES for at least a little while? I understand arcade -> console complicates matters, but I feel like the association so many people have with that title and SNES has to come from some kind of brief exclusivity. And Pac-Man only gets in because of Vs. really in terms of exclusives. But Miyamoto designed that.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Depending on your (Nquoid's) definition of exclusive, though, I don't believe Ryu or Ken have made any appearances on Nintendo consoles that weren't multiplat. At least, none come to mind.

Not one of the billion versions of Street Fighter 2 was only on SNES for at least a little while?

Project X Zone 1/2 and Super Street Fighter IV: 3D Edition were 3DS exclusive.

Not that it matters anyways, all that matters is that they were on Nintendo consoles, not that they were exclusive.

 

[SKX31]

Negligible but still existent. That's the key, the difference between them and someone like Kratos or Chief.

I do feel like the console wars kind of come into play here though. As it stands, Microsoft and Nintendo have a common foe: Sony. Also, they conviently don't compete with each other: Nintendo has no plans to produce home consoles that can output 4K or beyond (which is the One X's and Project Scarlet's forte), and Microsoft has no intention of building a portable console, ever. Oh and the Xbox doesn't have a wide Japanese presence.

That does open the window for Chief in the future. Assuming content post-Fighter Pass that is. Frank's tweet deconning him also mentioned that he got a Switch and Smash. It's not unreasonable that 343 at least explored two possibilities: A) A Halo Switch port (especially when there's a previous test with Halo DS), and B) how feasible Chief would be in Smash. If Doomguy gets confirmed, then I could see 343 beginning to push more seriously, since Doomguy and Chief have enough differences to stand out from each other.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I do feel like the console wars kind of come into play here though. As it stands, Microsoft and Nintendo have a common foe: Sony. Also, they conviently don't compete with each other: Nintendo has no plans to produce home consoles that can output 4K or beyond (which is the One X's and Project Scarlet's forte), and Microsoft has no intention of building a portable console, ever. Oh and the Xbox doesn't have a wide Japanese presence.

That does open the window for Chief in the future. Assuming content post-Fighter Pass that is. Frank's tweet deconning him also mentioned that he got a Switch and Smash. It's not unreasonable that 343 at least explored two possibilities: A) A Halo Switch port (especially when they did test with the DS previously), and B) how feasible Chief would be in Smash. If Doomguy gets confirmed, then I could see 343 beginning to push more seriously, since Doomguy and Chief have enough differences to stand out from each other.

Opens the window for Chief if Halo appears on a Nintendo console. Until then, other characters will be having priority.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The one thing connecting every Smash character is that they've appeared in a game on a Nintendo console before. I don't particularly like fan rules, but I feel like this is one thing we can absolutely count on to stay true in the future.
If they were in a game on Nintendo, that technically makes them part of Nintendo history right? I also do like how Sakurai treated Persona the same way he treats DK, Yoshi and Wario in relation to Mario Bros.: As its own separate series. This also means if SMT representation ever does happen (which seems likely for Smash 6 if SMTV does well) it'll be treated separately from Persona.

Yeah, I don’t see any particular point of the fan rule other than to give the illusion the Nintendo factor matters. There is zero evidence it actually matters. It’s frankly a bad fan rule for the sake of purism at this point. When the creator of the franchise already has spoken it’s not a requirement, it’s time to let it go. Patterns aren’t rules either or proper evidence. What they are at best is a reason to believe the fan rule is unlikely to be broken.

 

[Nquoid]

Opens the window for Chief if Halo appears on a Nintendo console. Until then, other characters will be having priority.

This just reminds me of just how close we came to Halo DS

 

[SKX31]

Opens the window for Chief if Halo appears on a Nintendo console. Until then, other characters will be having priority.

The response was a bit undercooked, but yes. There is the benefit of being able to say "Halo on the go!" (which is what the Halo DS test was primarily aimed at, having converted one of Halo 2's multiplayer levels to the DS), even if it comes with its own set of dangers. Still, the main reason I think it all is a possibility is Microsoft's recent moves (rumored and confirmed). Not guaranteed by any stretch, since it assumes 343 finds out that both A) and B) are feasible.

 

[Izanagi97]

You are talking about super heavy weights.

Still, it's hard to tell a character's weight before they get into Smash, considering are lightweights and is lighter than .

Gonna correct you by pointing out that Ridley is 1 unit heavier than Snake (107 vs 106) unless you are talking a different kind of weight

As i’ve always said about swordfighters/wielders...if they don’t play the same, then why does it matter?

Lucina and Marth don’t play the same despite having the same moveset

Roy and Chrom don’t play the same with differences between movesets.

Ike is completely unique from pretty much everybody else.

Link is projectile based, and slower/heavier than other users.

Young Link and Toon Link are quite different.

Robin and Hero use swords and magic, but if Hero doesn’t have the decay mechanic then he’s a character that plays differently.

Meta Knight has a sword and plays entirely different from everybody.

Corrin doesn’t play like anybody else either.

Cloud has the limit gauge. Shulk has the Monado arts.

The “anime swordsman” arguments are, and always have been garbage imo. We play this game. If they are unique from other characters, the fact that they use a similar weapon is completely dismissible.

Or are we going to complain that we have fistfighters galore?
.

Silly argument. Lloyd would likely have some sort of mechanic similar to the Tales games. He’d be unique from plenty of other fighters we already have.

Honestly, I just find complaining about Sword users in general to be silly

 

[Deathcarter]

Nintendo's definitely biased towards 3rd content that is popularly associated with a Nintendo console to an extent, otherwise we'd have Alucard instead of Simon, X instead of classic Mega Man, more substantial SF content from outside of 2, Lost Worlds wouldn't be a stage, Banjo wouldn't be in the game at all, Dragon Quest likely wouldn't be in either given its lack of Western popularity, and we'd have a wider variety of non-Nintendo associated series represented as spirits and assist trophies in the base roster outside of just Virtua Fighter. Of the five biggest exceptions to the rule:

-Snake was an outside request from a personal friend and colleague of Sakurai's.
-Pac-Man is owned by the company that develops the game.
-Cloud was a response to fan demand, both for the character and Final Fantasy content as a whole, as stated by Sakurai himself.
-Richter was an easy echo

Joker's and the Akira AT are the only instances so far of Sakurai going out of his way to pick a non-Nintendo associated series with no acknowledgment of the fanbase motivating him. Its not a hard rule but "Nintendo bias" is for the most part the standard.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Nintendo's definitely biased towards 3rd content that is popularly associated with a Nintendo console to an extent, otherwise we'd have Alucard instead of Simon, X instead of classic Mega Man, more substantial SF content from outside of 2, Lost Worlds wouldn't be a stage, Banjo wouldn't be in the game at all, Dragon Quest likely wouldn't be in either given its lack of Western popularity, and we'd have a wider variety of non-Nintendo associated series represented as spirits and assist trophies in the base roster outside of just Virtua Fighter. Of the five biggest exceptions to the rule:

-Snake was an outside request from a personal friend and colleague of Sakurai's.
-Pac-Man is owned by the company that develops the game.
-Cloud was a response to fan demand, both for the character and Final Fantasy content as a whole, as stated by Sakurai himself.
-Richter was an easy echo

Joker's and the Akira AT are the only instances so far of Sakurai going out of his way to pick a non-Nintendo associated series with no acknowledgment of the fanbase motivating him. Its not a hard rule but "Nintendo bias" is for the most part the standard.

Spoiler

Actually, that has nothing to do with why Alucard wasn't chosen. Sakurai outright said he chosen Simon and Richter because he believes people want to play as the first two main protagonists, with Simon being most popular/known in the US, and Richter being most popular/known in Japan(both popularity and recognition are important in this case. The Echo thing worked out well. We don't know exactly how Richter became an Echo, though. It's hard to say if he decided to make Richter an Echo in order to make Simon more interesting, or if he chose both characters and then decided to make them based upon each other).

MegaMan Classic is literally the most recognizable version of the character and everywhere. The other versions aren't nearly as shown among various media/etc. Even the latest new show is based upon MegaMan Classic as is, though with some obvious redesign choices.

Street Fighter II is literally the most iconic version of the game. To the point there's over 10 versions. It's also the most known in the Arcade among the SF series. That's literally more important than any Nintendo factor... especially when the Genesis got a huge amount of the versions of SFII as is. So no, it having slightly more Nintendo versions isn't exactly worth noting either.

Banjo-Kazooie is actually not as simple as that. While N64 nostalgia plays a role, there's also the fact it was a huge selling game and severely notable because of being extremely high quality. It could've came out on the PlayStation and still be heavily cared about without any changes here. The Nintendo factor is only the case of "cause people flock to the 64 versions over the Xbox entry" simply because it was that damn good of a game. I own both Kazooie and Tooie for a reason. They're a must have as a gamer as is.

Dragon Quest was literally the first console RPG and shaped RPG's to come, including Final Fantasy. Its legacy alone is more than enough reason to get into Smash. It didn't have the fan demand that Cloud did, on the other hand, as the Heroes had way too differing popularity. There was no de facto Hero in the way Cloud was. It didn't help that the most recognizable character in the franchise was Slime, bar none. Final Fantasy had tons of actual protagonists instead of generic Heroes, so it was more finding the most notable one. Different situations.

Pac-Man got in not because Bandai-Namco worked on the game, it's because they gave Sakurai ideas on how to implement him. He considered him as early as Brawl, but had no idea of how to make him work. It's the "give ideas" not simply being a part of it.

Sakurai isn't picking series because they're Nintendo-associated. He's picking legendary series to represent either because of fan demand or on their own merits. They coincidentally were often relevant to Nintendo as well, but it's just, a coincidence. Sakurai has never once actually said that Nintendo relevance was an actual reason he chosen anyone. BTW, while it seems like MegaMan might be that, it was his major fan demand(like Sonic) that mattered. Again, Sonic could've gotten in Melee alone if the person asked a bit earlier, meaning that the whole "Nintendo relevance" thing wasn't an actual factor either. It makes sense, as he's pretty clear that he isn't worried about console wars(at all) or appearances(where it's barely important. He didn't even give a real thought to what would've happened if Cloud didn't have small Nintendo appearances. It never crossed his mind, meaning he already knew who he wanted as is).

So as of now, there's maybe two at best who might've been because of Nintendo relevance, as there's a debatable statement of Sakurai's about MegaMan(in which he talked about the Nintendo appearances a bit) and Banjo & Kazooie(who did have N64 Nostalgia and fan demand). But those have legendary game status that earned their way in regardless of some Nintendo factor, so it's extremely unlikely it was an actual related thing.[/quote]

 

[BlueMonk]

Banjo-Kazooie is actually not as simple as that. While N64 nostalgia plays a role, there's also the fact it was a huge selling game and severely notable because of being extremely high quality. It could've came out on the PlayStation and still be heavily cared about without any changes here. The Nintendo factor is only the case of "cause people flock to the 64 versions over the Xbox entry" simply because it was that damn good of a game. I own both Kazooie and Tooie for a reason. They're a must have as a gamer as is.

I don't think Banjo would get in if they weren't nintendo tbh. They wouldn't have been chosen if they didn't have fan demand, and the reason they had so much demand was because the Banjo franchise was so great and was very well known within the Nintendo fanbase. If it was a Xbox game, there wouldn't be nearly as much crossover with the Nintendo fanbase and Banjo likely wouldn't be in.

 

[ES. Dinah]

I see I missed Bandai Namco discussion... did anyone get to discuss KOS-MOS, or

Cause honestly, demand for Xenosaga HD Collection aside, she has a lot of uniqueness potential since she, as an android, can turn her arm into a cannon, sword or drill, can summon Gatling guns, and can use X-Buster as her Final Smash.

About that.... I might have found something big. Can anyone translate this?

先日邪魔なので捨てようと思ったけど、怒られたのでやめた原稿の束の中から出てきた。
このころはアナログペン入れしてました。
モノリスソフトさんに送る？ pic.twitter.com/ackbzFWQuz

— CHOCOお父様@C103土曜 東ス-26ab (@choco_mugi) June 9, 2019

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't think Banjo would get in if they weren't nintendo tbh. They wouldn't have been chosen if they didn't have fan demand, and the reason they had so much demand was because the Banjo franchise was so great and was very well known within the Nintendo fanbase. If it was a Xbox game, there wouldn't be nearly as much crossover with the Nintendo fanbase and Banjo likely wouldn't be in.

Fan demand was pretty much because it's a super amazing game, regardless of what console it debuted on. The problem with the Xbox game is that it didn't feel like Banjo. Not what system it was on.

The debut system has nothing to do with its immense quality. I'm not seeing how the Nintendo factor is legitimately in play here. Not in the same way people think it is. It's very little at best, as it ultimately mattered way more that it was a high quality game that people wanted the character from. The character is immensely popular due to their design, not what system it in itself is on.

Correlation is not causation. Sakurai's reason for dismissing him back during Melee's development is that he didn't really treat the Nintendo factor as important. All that mattered was that he was a notably popular character and that he was impossible due to licensing issues at the time.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

About that.... I might have found something big. Can anyone translate this?

For a second I thought that was the niconico guy and nearly died from hype lul

But... I don’t see the katakana for Smash Bros. (Sumabura) anywhere in there... would like a translation nevertheless

 

[GoodGrief741]

Opens the window for Chief if Halo appears on a Nintendo console. Until then, other characters will be having priority.

Master Chief technically has an appearance on Nintendo as a Minecraft skin.

Fan demand was pretty much because it's a super amazing game, regardless of what console it debuted on. The problem with the Xbox game is that it didn't feel like Banjo. Not what system it was on.

The debut system has nothing to do with its immense quality. I'm not seeing how the Nintendo factor is legitimately in play here. Not in the same way people think it is. It's very little at best, as it ultimately mattered way more that it was a high quality game that people wanted the character from. The character is immensely popular due to their design, not what system it in itself is on.

Correlation is not causation. Sakurai's reason for dismissing him back during Melee's development is that he didn't really treat the Nintendo factor as important. All that mattered was that he was a notably popular character and that he was impossible due to licensing issues at the time.

The debut system has everything to do with Banjo's demand. It's only natural that Nintendo fans would be drawn to characters that were iconic on Nintendo consoles.

Just saying 'it's an amazing game' is reductive. There's tons of amazing games that have zero Smash demand. Where's the demand for Lara Croft? Or CJ? What about Manny Calavera? Adam Jensen/JC Denton? Gordon Freeman? Pretending that console doesn't play a part in people's wants is very strange.

Hell, massive demand for big, successful third party characters seem to end at the N64 era - coincidentally when third party support started to leave Nintendo. When you look at modern third parties, the ones with the most support are Indies, aka the games that do still get released on Nintendo hardware.

 

[BlueMonk]

Fan demand was pretty much because it's a super amazing game, regardless of what console it debuted on. The problem with the Xbox game is that it didn't feel like Banjo. Not what system it was on.

The debut system has nothing to do with its immense quality. I'm not seeing how the Nintendo factor is legitimately in play here. Not in the same way people think it is. It's very little at best, as it ultimately mattered way more that it was a high quality game that people wanted the character from. The character is immensely popular due to their design, not what system it in itself is on.

Correlation is not causation. Sakurai's reason for dismissing him back during Melee's development is that he didn't really treat the Nintendo factor as important. All that mattered was that he was a notably popular character and that he was impossible due to licensing issues at the time.

I want to clarify first that I don't think Sakurai chooses characters based off their home console either, but with Banjo I think it wouldn't have happened if he had originated elsewhere. Its true that Banjo-Kazooie is a great game, and that's why people request him, but if it hadn't been on a nintendo console it would not be nearly as popular among the smash fanbase, which is comprised predominantly of nintendo fans. There are plenty of great, highly praised games out there that don't have characters popular among the smash fanbase. For example, very rarely will you find people asking for Gordon Freeman to be in smash despite Half-Life typically being considered a franchise of exceptional quality. If Half-Life had been a game on the N64, than maybe Gordon Freeman would be highly requested and get a place in smash, since then there would be more crossover between Half-Life fans and Smash fans.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Master Chief technically has an appearance on Nintendo as a Minecraft skin.

Not an actual Halo game though. Joker and Cloud’s Nintendo appearances were spin offs, yes, but they were still strictly Final Fantasy and Persona games, not small cameos in another series’s game.

Still a tier below them.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Not an actual Halo game though. Joker and Cloud’s Nintendo appearances were spin offs, yes, but they were still strictly Final Fantasy and Persona games, not small cameos in another series’s game.

Still a tier below them.

Fair enough.

I guess we have to get Halo on Switch then! I'm all for that.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Spoiler

I want to clarify first that I don't think Sakurai chooses characters based off their home console either, but with Banjo I think it wouldn't have happened if he had originated elsewhere. Its true that Banjo-Kazooie is a great game, and that's why people request him, but if it hadn't been on a nintendo console it would not be nearly as popular among the smash fanbase, which is comprised predominantly of nintendo fans. There are plenty of great, highly praised games out there that don't have characters popular among the smash fanbase. For example, very rarely will you find people asking for Gordon Freeman to be in smash despite Half-Life typically being considered a franchise of exceptional quality. If Half-Life had been a game on the N64, than maybe Gordon Freeman would be highly requested and get a place in smash, since then there would be more crossover between Half-Life fans and Smash fans.

Honestly, I doubt the demand would be any different. Severely amazing games get tons of demand for remakes or the character being used more often. Banjo's legacy as a major character isn't Nintendo-related in itself. It's still the full-out quality of the game. You could've had all the Rareware games(save maybe Killer Instinct at best, and obviously Donkey Kong 64) on the PlayStation at that point and it wouldn't change the quality or enjoyment of the game. The system really had no correlation to his demand.

Master Chief technically has an appearance on Nintendo as a Minecraft skin.

Not even technical. Cameos are official appearances on a system. So yeah, Master Chief has his own Nintendo appearance. It's even called the "Halo Mash-Up Pack", marketing Halo's first official Nintendo appearance.

The debut system has everything to do with Banjo's demand. It's only natural that Nintendo fans would be drawn to characters that were iconic on Nintendo consoles.

It doesn't have as much to do with it as you think it does. Sure, some people only wanted him because of the silly idea that he is magically tied to Nintendo when that stopped being the case a long time ago. But there's a reason why various characters like Crash and Spyro have demand too, and it's not because of some Nintendo appearances, it's because they're gaming icons. Banjo's gaming icon status is pretty much due to major game quality first and foremost. The system would not have changed anything whatsoever. There's a reason the Xbox Banjo game did significantly less well, and it's not the system at all. It's because they didn't make it based upon the regular games by completely redesigned it as basically a spin-off gameplay design. If it was Banjo-Threeie like people have wanted, it would've done way better. There's a reason why Rare Replay has the original 64 titles, due to their high quality, not just cause they were on the 64. If they weren't high quality, it'd be a different story. In fact, if it weren't for the games being high quality, there really would be next to no demand for Banjo. Quality is absolutely the key factor. The Nintendo association was significantly less important and still overall is.

Just saying 'it's an amazing game' is reductive. There's tons of amazing games that have zero Smash demand. Where's the demand for Lara Croft? Or CJ? What about Manny Calavera? Adam Jensen/JC Denton? Gordon Freeman? Pretending that console doesn't play a part in people's wants is very strange.

A lot of those characters have a lot of demand too. Because they're major characters and earned a spot in Smash by being major alone. Actually, every single video game character can easily have a spot in Smash by virtue of being a video game character. Likeliness is a different story. You know many of those have a support thread here for a reason, right? In fact, it's because we decided to not be ridiculous with the rules and allow any Video Game Character to have a support thread because we're already aware that Sakurai doesn't give a rat's ass about a Nintendo connection.

Hell, massive demand for big, successful third party characters seem to end at the N64 era - coincidentally when third party support started to leave Nintendo. When you look at modern third parties, the ones with the most support are Indies, aka the games that do still get released on Nintendo hardware.

This isn't remotely true either. There's tons of demand for characters like 2B, Steve, Master Chief, Kratos, etc. And those are just some examples. The Smash bubble is a terrible example of what's actually going on. The whole logic most care about some Nintendo appearance is actually faulty and is the vocal minority at best. A huge amount of people really really don't care about Nintendo connections these days. What they want is fun playable characters from games they played. Regardless of the system. Again, it's why the support thread rules changed, to reflect the times. Besides that, again, as I've made it clear before, the Nintendo connection is a flawed thing that isn't actually a key factor.

 

[Opossum]

I'm sorry, but you're absolutely kidding yourself if you believe Banjo's demand would be anywhere near where it was if his games were exclusive to, say, the Dreamcast.

Pretty much the entire basis of his demand came from being a long lost Nintendo character.

 

[Idon]

I'm sorry, but you're absolutely kidding yourself if you believe Banjo's demand would be anywhere near where it was if his games were exclusive to, say, the Dreamcast.

Pretty much the entire basis of his demand came from being a long lost Nintendo character.

Klonoa and NiGHTS fans seething in the background.

 

[Deleted member]

Going to be honest, if a game's quality affected popularity within the fanbase, we would have tons of popular picks.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Not an actual Halo game though. Joker and Cloud’s Nintendo appearances were spin offs, yes, but they were still strictly Final Fantasy and Persona games, not small cameos in another series’s game.

Still a tier below them.

That frankly sounds hyper picky and cherrypicking. Cameos are cameos. Why should it matter if it's the actual game? We have Halo content alone on a Nintendo system. Master Chief has a Nintendo appearance. It's not a technicality either. It's a straight appearance of the series.

There's no need to wait for a Master Chief Collection either(as that may just be a false rumor or something that was thought about but never happens), since there's an extremely good chance we'll get a Chief costume or spirit anyway. It's very unlikely he'll be playable in this pass as is(and future passes are doubtful), so while we could get him playable next game, for instance, it won't be because of some Nintendo appearances. It'll be because of what matters, being a gaming icon, the only actual thing that was noted as important for a general 3rd party(which despite Banjo being a bit on the lower scale of iconicness overall, he still is one).

 

[Mushroomguy12]

That frankly sounds hyper picky and cherrypicking. Cameos are cameos. Why should it matter if it's the actual game? We have Halo content alone on a Nintendo system. Master Chief has a Nintendo appearance. It's not a technicality either. It's a straight appearance of the series.

There's no need to wait for a Master Chief Collection either(as that may just be a false rumor or something that was thought about but never happens), since there's an extremely good chance we'll get a Chief costume or spirit anyway. It's very unlikely he'll be playable in this pass as is(and future passes are doubtful), so while we could get him playable next game, for instance, it won't be because of some Nintendo appearances. It'll be because of what matters, being a gaming icon, the only actual thing that was noted as important for a general 3rd party(which despite Banjo being a bit on the lower scale of iconicness overall, he still is one).

Cameos are different from full games. Not saying Master Chief is 100% impossible, he's certainly above characters like Kratos or Goku, but as of now, he is still a tier below all of the current 3rd party fighters in Smash. Whether Sakurai wants to break that tier is up to him.

 

[Flyboy]

So, here's something fun. Not only is it a nice little interview, it also hammers home the timeline in which Banjo was finalized and Grant was contacted. Perhaps some of these previous deconfirmations were simply because their creators didn't know at the time, or perhaps Mick Gordon needing people to help with "a video game" in January has some significance...

Or maybe Travis Touchdown has a chance after all...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Cameos are different from full games. Not saying Master Chief is 100% impossible, he's certainly above characters like Kratos or Goku, but as of now, he is still a tier below all of the current 3rd party fighters in Smash. Whether Sakurai wants to break that tier is up to him.

Cameos are just as much a Nintendo appearance as their game or series appearing on the system. The difference is just that tangible. There is literally no case where having their game or series appearance on the system was remotely said as important. What was actually said was "Them having an appearance on a Nintendo system is something of a courtesy." Besides not being an actual requirement(except for bad fan rules), Sakurai has made it clear that any appearance is what is meant. Again, what you said is very cherrypicking.

To be honest, your tiers are not making any sense. You've said 4 tiers here(Impossible(Goku), Vastly unlikely(Kratos), ???(Master Chief), Already in(Everybody else)). So I really don't get what you're fully trying to say. It seems like you believe hindsight is the best way to look at it, but that's not really an argument worth making anyway. Anybody who is already in is a tier above anyone not in yet by... default. So it's a pretty useless tier to bring up. You'll need to elaborate a bit better to explain what you mean by what tier Chief is supposedly in, cause there's a serious lack of data here. If you take away the "not happening(non-game 3rd parties)" tier, the "vastly unlikely(Sony exclusive) tier", and the "already in" tier, then what other tiers are there that you mean? I'm sure you have a more clear set of tiers here, since that's what your post implies, but I could be wrong.

 

[Vycoul]

The day Cloud was revealed was the day that the "has to have appeared on a Nintendo console" fan-rule should have died.

Does anyone seriously think that Sakurai's team was considering a Final Fantasy character and went:
"Gosh, Cloud would be great, but I don't think he's even been on one of Nintendo's systems... Damn, oh well. Who's nex-"
"WAIT! That Theatrhythm game, he was in it! Haha, we're in luck everyone! Call SquareEnix right away!"

I don't think that negotiations between such large companies hinge on such silly little contingents. It just seems, frankly, like a shallow view on how these things work.

 

[SKX31]

Not an actual Halo game though. Joker and Cloud’s Nintendo appearances were spin offs, yes, but they were still strictly Final Fantasy and Persona games, not small cameos in another series’s game.

Still a tier below them.

That frankly sounds hyper picky and cherrypicking. Cameos are cameos. Why should it matter if it's the actual game? We have Halo content alone on a Nintendo system. Master Chief has a Nintendo appearance. It's not a technicality either. It's a straight appearance of the series.

There's no need to wait for a Master Chief Collection either(as that may just be a false rumor or something that was thought about but never happens), since there's an extremely good chance we'll get a Chief costume or spirit anyway. It's very unlikely he'll be playable in this pass as is(and future passes are doubtful), so while we could get him playable next game, for instance, it won't be because of some Nintendo appearances. It'll be because of what matters, being a gaming icon, the only actual thing that was noted as important for a general 3rd party(which despite Banjo being a bit on the lower scale of iconicness overall, he still is one).

Spoiler: Lets go real deep into this!

Still, it may be more worth it to give Chief the same road Joker got because that smooths over any potential questions about Nintendo appearances. Itsuno was really wary about letting Dante into Smash before a Nintendo release, we could have a similar situation where Frank O'Connor and / or Phil Spencer were similarily wary. That line of thinking does exist among some higher ups too it seems.

By now, 343 likely has enough knowledge of the Switch's architechture to tell if Halo's feasible on the platform. Frank tweeted in December last year, after all - that's 6 months time to get a decent grip of the specs, do some very light testing etc. And given that games like Doom and SMITE - a Third person MOBA at that - are actually on the Switch, alongside past experience from Halo DS, I don't see why Halo wouldn't work. Also, almost forgot about this tweet - Microsoft likely knows that 343 wants Chief in Smash.

343's manpower is on Infinite and the MCC PC port at the moment, with the PC release being staggered as the games (six in total) are ready (they did show of a demo of Halo: Reach at E3, so the PC port's coming along). Getting the PC port out is probably very important if 343 wants to do a Switch release - lets say that they port Halo 1 or 2 solo to the Switch, to keep it simply one game. Capcom have done that with Devil May Cry 1 recently (despite DMC1 being part of the DMC collection elsewhere), so it's feasible. If we assume all six PC ports are done by December, 343 has enough manpower to work on a theorical Switch port by then. Once the theoretical Switch port gets started, it's only a matter of time.

Of course, whether Smash gets further DLC or not is completely up in the air. I may be on the positive side personally because of the 16 WoL slots, but that's far from a guarantee. Chief does have one advantage though: he would be the biggest inclusion since Sonic at least. That could be really, really tempting for Sakurai - but that also kinda assumes that Sakurai knows about 343 possibly wanting to put Halo on the Switch. And that Sakurai wants to continue producing DLC.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Cameos are just as much a Nintendo appearance as their game or series appearing on the system. The difference is just that tangible. There is literally no case where having their game or series appearance on the system was remotely said as important. What was actually said was "Them having an appearance on a Nintendo system is something of a courtesy." Besides not being an actual requirement(except for bad fan rules), Sakurai has made it clear that any appearance is what is meant. Again, what you said is very cherrypicking.

To be honest, your tiers are not making any sense. You've said 4 tiers here(Impossible(Goku), Vastly unlikely(Kratos), ???(Master Chief), Already in(Everybody else)). So I really don't get what you're fully trying to say. It seems like you believe hindsight is the best way to look at it, but that's not really an argument worth making anyway. Anybody who is already in is a tier above anyone not in yet by... default. So it's a pretty useless tier to bring up. You'll need to elaborate a bit better to explain what you mean by what tier Chief is supposedly in, cause there's a serious lack of data here. If you take away the "not happening(non-game 3rd parties)" tier, the "vastly unlikely(Sony exclusive) tier", and the "already in" tier, then what other tiers are there that you mean? I'm sure you have a more clear set of tiers here, since that's what your post implies, but I could be wrong.

Don't see what's so difficult to understand about my tiers. Let's lay them out, shall we?
From highest to lowest:
1. Everyone already in
2. Games from franchise on Nintendo console
3. Cameo on Nintendo console (Master Chief)
4. No appearance on Nintendo Console (Kratos)
5. Not a video game character (Goku)

TBH, I don't even think there should be a difference between the 3rd and 4th tier, but that's just me.

The day Cloud was revealed was the day that the "has to have appeared on a Nintendo console" fan-rule should have died.

Does anyone seriously think that Sakurai's team was considering a Final Fantasy character and went:
"Gosh, Cloud would be great, but I don't think he's even been on one of Nintendo's systems... Damn, oh well. Who's nex-"
"WAIT! That Theatrhythm game, he was in it! Haha, we're in luck everyone! Call SquareEnix right away!"

I don't think that negotiations between such large companies hinge on such silly little contingents. It just seems, frankly, like a shallow view on how these things work.

Well, it wasn't just "that Theatrhythm game" or even that "Kingdom Hearts GBA game", although they did probably do some help in justifying it, a much bigger help was FF 1-6 being some of the most prominent and popular JRPGs on the NES/Famicom/SNES/Super Famicom. Cloud was just the most popular FF character.

 

[ES. Dinah]

For a second I thought that was the niconico guy and nearly died from hype lul

But... I don’t see the katakana for Smash Bros. (Sumabura) anywhere in there... would like a translation nevertheless

Well, I am trying to link this to a Xenosaga HD since CHOCO redrew KOS-MOS and Shion.... and it made me very excited. CHOCO wouldn't just redraw them for no reason. And we got Xenosaga HD rumour last year in April with the trademark again for EP III.

 

[Opossum]

I mean Sakurai DID say he may have had misgivings if Cloud had no Nintendo appearances, and then used Theaterhythm as an example in the very next sentence. To write having a Nintendo appearance as a requirement off completely doesn't make much sense.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Still, it may be more worth it to give Chief the same road Joker got because that smooths over any potential questions about Nintendo appearances. Itsuno was really wary about letting Dante into Smash before a Nintendo release, we could have a similar situation where Frank O'Connor and / or Phil Spencer were similarily wary. That line of thinking does exist among some higher ups too it seems.

Of course. But that's not the same thing as Sakurai saying it's a requirement(he said quite the opposite, that it's more of a factor to look into at best).. It's completely understandable that not all developers like the idea of their characters first appearing in a crossover before their series' games did. This could be why it was easier for Cloud to be in KH, because his series was already on Nintendo. It could even be part of why KH often had FF content. Who knows.

By now, 343 likely has enough knowledge of the Switch's architechture to tell if Halo's feasible on the platform. Frank tweeted in December last year, after all - that's 6 months time to get a decent grip of the specs, do some very light testing etc. And given that games like Doom and SMITE - a Third person MOBA at that - are actually on the Switch, alongside past experience from Halo DS, I don't see why Halo wouldn't work. Also, almost forgot about this tweet - Microsoft likely knows that 343 wants Chief in Smash.

343's manpower is on Infinite and the MCC PC port at the moment, with the PC release being staggered as the games (six in total) are ready (they did show of a demo of Halo: Reach at E3, so the PC port's coming along). Getting the PC port out is probably very important if 343 wants to do a Switch release - lets say that they port Halo 1 or 2 solo to the Switch, to keep it simply one game. Capcom have done that with Devil May Cry 1 recently (despite DMC1 being part of the DMC collection elsewhere), so it's feasible. If we assume all six PC ports are done by December, 343 has enough manpower to work on a theorical Switch port by then. Once the theoretical Switch port gets started, it's only a matter of time.

Of course, whether Smash gets further DLC or not is completely up in the air. I may be on the positive side personally because of the 16 WoL slots, but that's far from a guarantee. Chief does have one advantage though: he would be the biggest inclusion since Sonic at least. That could be really, really tempting for Sakurai - but that also kinda assumes that Sakurai knows about 343 possibly wanting to put Halo on the Switch.

Right. I'm not arguing that they can't make a Halo game on the Switch, etc. Nobody is saying that. But people are making the argument that it'd happen before Chief makes any kind of appearance in Smash, which isn't really founded as more than a silly fan rule.

My tiers make perfect sense.
From highest to lowest:
1. Games from franchise on Nintendo console (Everybody already in)
2. Cameo on Nintendo console (Master Chief)
3. No appearance on Nintendo Console (Kratos)
4. Not a video game character (Goku)

TBH, I don't even think there should be a difference between the 3rd and 4th tier, but that's just me.

Spoiler

Yeah, 1. is two literally different things. Everybody that isn't in is still a "games from franchises on a Nintendo console". That's not the same as Every Character Already In. 3 and 4 are significantly different factors and should be treated as such always. One is actually impossible. The Smash Ballot gave us a clear indication that "all video game characters are eligible", so writing off non-Nintendo appearance characters goes against the official statements for eligibility.

You're talking about 5 different tiers here.

Your tiers still don't make any sense. If it were to make a lot more sense, it'd be split up a bit better;

Tier 0: Characters already in. Not really a tier worth worrying about
Tier 1; Games from franchises on Nintendo systems
Tier 2: Cameos on Nintendo systems
Tier 3: No Nintendo appearance
Tier 4: Non-Video Game Characters

If a character is already in, then how likely they are is not a relevant factor. They clearly were likelier than our opinions could've perceived. How likely they were before being added is a completely different thing, and removes them from Tier 0 when actually talking about their chances, since you're ignoring the "they were already announced factor" to properly discuss their chances.

Tier 1 is pretty self-explanatory when more clearly separated. The rest are also pretty clear afterwards. But yeah, no wonder your tiers were confusing. You grouped two very different things together that don't belong together. Hindsight is not a tier(which is basically "everybody already in"). Though I want to clarify if you mean "everybody already in" as playable or just appearing in Smash. I presume you mean playable here, if only cause of the context, but with how confusing your tiers are, I'm definitely not sure what you mean.

Post updated cause it got really long.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Well, I am trying to link this to a Xenosaga HD since CHOCO redrew KOS-MOS and Shion.... and it made me very excited. CHOCO wouldn't just redraw them for no reason. And we got Xenosaga HD rumour last year in April with the trademark again for EP III.

ohhhh snap

what if KOS-MOS is announced for Smash to promote Xenosaga HD Trilogy like the Hero to promote Dragon Quest XI S....

 

[ES. Dinah]

ohhhh snap

what if KOS-MOS is announced for Smash to promote Xenosaga HD Trilogy like the Hero to promote Dragon Quest XI S....

That's my gut feeling at least ... and I would be the happiest person on earth most likely

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I mean Sakurai DID say he may have had misgivings if Cloud had no Nintendo appearances, and then used Theaterhythm as an example in the very next sentence. To write having a Nintendo appearance as a requirement off completely doesn't make much sense.

Yeah, I mean, Joker barely managed to squeeze in the requirement a week before Ultimate came out, with Persona Q2, even if Persona's a spin-off of the mostly Nintendo-inclined SMT franchise.

While not necessarily a solid rule, it is a factor that does help with negotiations. It's why people like Kratos don't seem like such a shoo-in.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Spoiler

Yeah, 1. is two literally different things. Everybody that isn't in is still a "games from franchises on a Nintendo console". That's not the same as Every Character Already In. 3 and 4 are significantly different factors and should be treated as such always. One is actually impossible. The Smash Ballot gave us a clear indication that "all video game characters are eligible", so writing off non-Nintendo appearance characters goes against the official statements for eligibility.

You're talking about 5 different tiers here.

Your tiers still don't make any sense. If it were to make a lot more sense, it'd be split up a bit better;

Tier 0: Characters already in. Not really a tier worth worrying about
Tier 1; Games from franchises on Nintendo systems
Tier 2: Cameos on Nintendo systems
Tier 3: No Nintendo appearance
Tier 4: Non-Video Game Characters

If a character is already in, then how likely they are is not a relevant factor. They clearly were likelier than our opinions could've perceived. How likely they were before being added is a completely different thing, and removes them from Tier 0 when actually talking about their chances, since you're ignoring the "they were already announced factor" to properly discuss their chances.

Tier 1 is pretty self-explanatory when more clearly separated. The rest are also pretty clear afterwards. But yeah, no wonder your tiers were confusing. You grouped two very different things together that don't belong together. Hindsight is not a tier(which is basically "everybody already in"). Though I want to clarify if you mean "everybody already in" as playable or just appearing in Smash. I presume you mean playable here, if only cause of the context, but with how confusing your tiers are, I'm definitely not sure what you mean.

Post updated cause it got really long.

K, updated my tier even though Tier 0, as you said, wasn't really worth worrying about so I didn't see the reason to separate it from Tier 1. Happy?

Ironically I think you're the one cherrypicking now.

 

[BlueMonk]

Well, I am trying to link this to a Xenosaga HD since CHOCO redrew KOS-MOS and Shion.... and it made me very excited. CHOCO wouldn't just redraw them for no reason. And we got Xenosaga HD rumour last year in April with the trademark again for EP III.

I could be totally wrong since I'm just going off the google translate, but it sounds like they're old sketches that they recently found and are considering sending to Monolith Soft, not something they just drew.