Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Robdelia]

I wonder if Hero was sort of a situation where you had all these people requesting and voting for various DQ characters in the Smash Ballot (Erdrick, Slime, 4, 8, other protags, famous party members like Yangus, etc) that they just pooled them all up into one character. I'd still hesitate to call Hero a promotional pick, though, and the only thing he, Joker and Banjo confirm for me is that whoever picked the DLC knows how to make great DLC picks.

 

[MrMcNuts]

I wonder if Hero was sort of a situation where you had all these people requesting and voting for various DQ characters in the Smash Ballot (Erdrick, Slime, 4, 8, other protags, famous party members like Yangus, etc) that they just pooled them all up into one character. I'd still hesitate to call Hero a promotional pick, though, and the only thing he, Joker and Banjo confirm for me is that whoever picked the DLC knows how to make great DLC picks.

People think he's a promotional pick but fail to realize dragon quest was a huge request in Japan, possibly more than Geno. Once again fan demand matters

 

[SKX31]

I mean it's similar in the sense that you have a fan favorite with demand (Banjo = Rayman) vs a less demanded character who people say is likely soley cause of series sales (steve=Ezio) *although I will say Steve actually has some demand where Ezio has none*

I don't think we're getting a Ubisoft rep on this pass. But if we get one in a future pass, then I'd say we'd most likely get Rayman if Banjo is anything to go by that fan demand matters.

Also I don't think the grade of a spirit really means anything for future chances lol

I just found the Spirit's grade really odd, but maybe I'm reading too much into it. Also, KirbyWorshipper2465 did point out something I had forgotten - that his friends went AWOL (Globox did have a trophy in 4, IMO he and the Teensies should have Spirits at least) so that's part of the equation.

Still, I don't think that the Rayman / Ezio situation is that comparable with the Banjo / Steve one. Also, fan demand does play a major role, but I'm a bit skeptical as to how much. Especially when Joker started the Pass, and the currently most speculated character is Doomguy. Neither have been really highly speculated until pretty much recently. Even allowing for the Hero to be fan demand (which is reasonable), that's 2 out of 4 characters if Doomguy gets into the game.

Sakurai / Nintendo would likely spread out characters from different genres / character types, but genres depend on how Sakurai / Nintendo define them. For example, does Banjo-Kazooie count as a Western platformer, or collectathon in their minds? If it's the former it could hurt Rayman's chances this pass, if it's the latter it could help. Likewise with Ezio: Is he a bit too similar to Joker as a character type in Nintendo's minds (with Joker being a stealthy thief and all, not far removed from Ezio's Assassin style)?

I find it decently likely that Ubisoft and Nintendo have talked about a playable rep since 4, but hit a bit of a wall / impasse. Could be something seemingly ridicolous, like Sakurai having trouble with Rayman's moveset or whatever.

 

[MrMcNuts]

I just found the Spirit's grade really odd, but maybe I'm reading too much into it. Also, KirbyWorshipper2465 did point out something I had forgotten - that his friends went AWOL (Globox did have a trophy in 4, IMO he and the Teensies should have Spirits at least) so that's part of the equation.

Still, I don't think that the Rayman / Ezio situation is that comparable with the Banjo / Steve one. Also, fan demand does play a major role, but I'm a bit skeptical as to how much. Especially when Joker started the Pass, and the currently most speculated character is Doomguy. Neither have been really highly speculated until pretty much recently. Even allowing for the Hero to be fan demand (which is reasonable), that's 2 out of 4 characters if Doomguy gets into the game.

Sakurai / Nintendo would likely spread out characters from different genres / character types, but genres depend on how Sakurai / Nintendo define them. For example, does Banjo-Kazooie count as a Western platformer, or collectathon in their minds? If it's the former it could hurt Rayman's chances this pass, if it's the latter it could help. Likewise with Ezio: Is he a bit too similar to Joker as a character type in Nintendo's minds (with Joker being a stealthy thief and all, not far removed from Ezio's Assassin style)?

I find it decently likely that Ubisoft and Nintendo have talked about a playable rep since 4, but hit a bit of a wall / impasse. Could be something seemingly ridicolous, like Sakurai having trouble with Rayman's moveset or whatever.

Oh wow a post that isn't just "grr Rayman ain't that big" or anything like that. And these are all good points actually. I know I'm biased cause Rayman is my most wanted but I just also personally think he'd be the Ubi rep given Ubisoft has said they'd like him in before and that he definitely has a fan demand even if it's not on banjos level. And while ezio could have a moveset, I personally think Rayman would offer a more unique one along with more unique stages and music

 

[Flyboy]

Imagine that.

A standard Smash trailer with Mario and Toon Link fighting. Duddenly they're in their new 3DS outfits and this starts playing

STYLIST changes things up!

You have no clue how hard I'd lose my ****. She's my most-wanted first party because she would be HILARIOUS and add a cute shoujo style to Smash. Everyone in fashionable outfits as she shimmies and shakes and puts smiles on people's faces. And also hits people with handbags, mannequins, doll furniture...

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I wonder if Hero was sort of a situation where you had all these people requesting and voting for various DQ characters in the Smash Ballot (Erdrick, Slime, 4, 8, other protags, famous party members like Yangus, etc) that they just pooled them all up into one character. I'd still hesitate to call Hero a promotional pick, though, and the only thing he, Joker and Banjo confirm for me is that whoever picked the DLC knows how to make great DLC picks.

Hero's not a promotional pick.
Making Luminary the default, that was.
Still, as long as it's not PSASBR's state of denying that there was another Dante, it's fine by me.

 

[Flyboy]

Hero's not a promotional pick.
Making Luminary the default, that was.
Still, as long as it's not PSASBR's state of denying that there was another Dante, it's fine by me.

That's the thing, you can argue that there was a promotional element in making Luminary the default skin. But it's like, not a big deal because Dragon Quest is awesome anyway, long-running series, and having a Hero from every decade of the series pleases the most fans. You want promotional picks done wrong, try PSABR having Donte and beta-design MGR Raiden and no Solid Snake or Big Boss. Wild.

Picks being chosen because of recency or relevance isn't inherently a bad thing, I don't think anyone's saying that, and when I brought up Luminary being chosen as the face for promotional reasons I in no way meant he was only picked for those reasons.

 

[Nquoid]

Rayman felt a lot more likely during the Smash 4 days, just because Rayman Origins and Legends were so damn good and it felt like Ubisoft were finally going to start focusing on that franchise again over Rabbids. Obviously they couldn't work out the deal for whatever reason, but the UbiArt games really reinvigorated that franchise and it's a shame those two things couldn't line up

 

[MrMcNuts]

Rayman felt a lot more likely during the Smash 4 days, just because Rayman Origins and Legends were so damn good and it felt like Ubisoft were finally going to start focusing on that franchise again over Rabbids. Obviously they couldn't work out the deal for whatever reason, but the UbiArt games really reinvigorated that franchise and it's a shame those two things couldn't line up

I think as long as he keeps his foot in the door then he might get his chance someday

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

As i’ve always said about swordfighters/wielders...if they don’t play the same, then why does it matter?

Lucina and Marth don’t play the same despite having the same moveset

Roy and Chrom don’t play the same with differences between movesets.

Ike is completely unique from pretty much everybody else.

Link is projectile based, and slower/heavier than other users.

Young Link and Toon Link are quite different.

Robin and Hero use swords and magic, but if Hero doesn’t have the decay mechanic then he’s a character that plays differently.

Meta Knight has a sword and plays entirely different from everybody.

Corrin doesn’t play like anybody else either.

Cloud has the limit gauge. Shulk has the Monado arts.

The “anime swordsman” arguments are, and always have been garbage imo. We play this game. If they are unique from other characters, the fact that they use a similar weapon is completely dismissible.

Or are we going to complain that we have fistfighters galore?
.

Silly argument. Lloyd would likely have some sort of mechanic similar to the Tales games. He’d be unique from plenty of other fighters we already have.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Rayman's a bit of a lower level icon. Competing with the Rabbids doesn't help either, as they are more tied to Nintendo as is thanks to a very specific crossover(and full of merchandise too). Never got why the crossover helped Rayman's chances at all, when it only helps Rabbids as is. Rabbids and Rayman have been treated as their own franchises by Ubisoft as is. Though I never was able to get far in the Spirits, so I don't know if they're treated as the same franchises in Smash. But being we didn't know that the Spirits would even be in while Mario + Rabbids was out, it still made little sense to tie to Rayman when he's not just absent entirely, but still a separate franchise as is.

Though I'd prefer a playable Rabbid for the first Ubisoft character. Never got into Assassin's Creed either.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Rayman's a bit of a lower level icon. Competing with the Rabbids doesn't help either, as they are more tied to Nintendo as is thanks to a very specific crossover(and full of merchandise too). Never got why the crossover helped Rayman's chances at all, when it only helps Rabbids as is. Rabbids and Rayman have been treated as their own franchises by Ubisoft as is. Though I never was able to get far in the Spirits, so I don't know if they're treated as the same franchises in Smash. But being we didn't know that the Spirits would even be in while Mario + Rabbids was out, it still made little sense to tie to Rayman when he's not just absent entirely, but still a separate franchise as is.

Though I'd prefer a playable Rabbid for the first Ubisoft character. Never got into Assassin's Creed either.

Because Mario and rabbids showed that the 2 companies are on pretty good terms

 

[3BitSaurus]

I think as long as he keeps his foot in the door then he might get his chance someday

Hopefully. Rayman is pretty much the one Ubisoft character I care about. Thing is, for someone like him to get in, it would have to be because of his character itself or fan demand, because I don't see him getting any crazy mechanic no other platformer characters have.

Can we talk about SNK, please? I've always thought they were a contender, but It just dawned on me yesterday that if one of the last two characters is from a fighting game, then Kyo Kusanagi might actually have a good shot.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Hopefully. Rayman is pretty much the one Ubisoft character I care about. Thing is, for someone like him to get in, it would have to be because of his character itself or fan demand, because I don't see him getting any crazy mechanic no other platformer characters have.

Can we talk about SNK, please? I've always thought they were a contender, but It just dawned on me yesterday that if one of the last two characters is from a fighting game, then Kyo Kusanagi might actually have a good shot.

I feel like you could do some crazy stuff with him being Limbless. I feel like if ubisoft and Nintendo are in talks for any future smash dlc then he has a good shot since he's the only Ubi rep people really want

As for snk, can't say I know much of their franchises but they probably have a good shot, from what I understand they're a big third party in the industry

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Because Mario and rabbids showed that the 2 companies are on pretty good terms

Which doesn't do anything special for Rayman anymore than it does for Ezio. It's meaningless overall. Closest thing it did was get the obvious Rabbid spirits in at best. Rayman getting a spirit again was easily expected in comparison on its own. An unrelated game to him really doesn't help his chances at all. Not anymore than the Starlinks stuff did. Why doesn't it heavily affect Rabbids or Ezio's chances then? It should affect Rabbids the most since they're half the stars as is(a long with the Mario cast, who are pretty much in Smash anyway, bar Toad anyway). Even if it slightly helps Rayman and/or Ezio, there is no reason to ignore how much stronger it affects how important the Rabbids are viewed as by Ubisoft.

The issue is Sakurai, not Nintendo. Sakurai has a lot of trouble working with Western companies. It was noted that he had some trouble working with Microsoft too for B&K. So this might be why Rayman was never more than a trophy/spirit. Though I wouldn't be surprised if the limbless factor was an issue for him to implement too. But there's no way to tell on that front. I've seen movesets able to balance it. Of course, just cause a fan can balance something doesn't mean Sakurai thought of it.

 

[Flyboy]

To me, the most viable SNK candidate is Terry Bogard, with Mai Shiranui behind him and my personal picks of Marco and Fio (Metal Slug) in a distant third. Kyo and even Nakoruru are outliers in that they could sneak in due to being big names in their respective series. But like, out of everyone, it's gotta be Terry. You want to talk about iconic, he's the boy! He's in Fatal Fury, KOF, and Garou!

I mean don't get me wrong, Marco and Fio would be amazing but I think the most likely SNK rep is Terry Bogard himself. Or they swerve us and put Geese on another crossover. Him joining Tekken is one of the coolest non-Smash reveals I've ever seen.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Which doesn't do anything special for Rayman anymore than it does for Ezio. It's meaningless overall. Closest thing it did was get the obvious Rabbid spirits in at best. Rayman getting a spirit again was easily expected in comparison on its own. An unrelated game to him really doesn't help his chances at all. Not anymore than the Starlinks stuff did. Why doesn't it heavily affect Rabbids or Ezio's chances then? It should affect Rabbids the most since they're half the stars as is(a long with the Mario cast, who are pretty much in Smash anyway, bar Toad anyway). Even if it slightly helps Rayman and/or Ezio, there is no reason to ignore how much stronger it affects how important the Rabbids are viewed as by Ubisoft.

The issue is Sakurai, not Nintendo. Sakurai has a lot of trouble working with Western companies. It was noted that he had some trouble working with Microsoft too for B&K. So this might be why Rayman was never more than a trophy/spirit. Though I wouldn't be surprised if the limbless factor was an issue for him to implement too. But there's no way to tell on that front. I've seen movesets able to balance it. Of course, just cause a fan can balance something doesn't mean Sakurai thought of it.

I applaud Sakurai wanting to work personally with the companies he gets characters from. But doesn't Nintendo have full teams of translators that would help him talk with these companies? I'm sure the middleman would make it more complicated but people make it sound like it's impossible for Nintendo and Sakurai to talk with any Western companies. Phil said the Banjo negotiations were easy.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Which doesn't do anything special for Rayman anymore than it does for Ezio. It's meaningless overall. Closest thing it did was get the obvious Rabbid spirits in at best. Rayman getting a spirit again was easily expected in comparison on its own. An unrelated game to him really doesn't help his chances at all. Not anymore than the Starlinks stuff did. Why doesn't it heavily affect Rabbids or Ezio's chances then? It should affect Rabbids the most since they're half the stars as is(a long with the Mario cast, who are pretty much in Smash anyway, bar Toad anyway). Even if it slightly helps Rayman and/or Ezio, there is no reason to ignore how much stronger it affects how important the Rabbids are viewed as by Ubisoft.

The issue is Sakurai, not Nintendo. Sakurai has a lot of trouble working with Western companies. It was noted that he had some trouble working with Microsoft too for B&K. So this might be why Rayman was never more than a trophy/spirit. Though I wouldn't be surprised if the limbless factor was an issue for him to implement too. But there's no way to tell on that front. I've seen movesets able to balance it. Of course, just cause a fan can balance something doesn't mean Sakurai thought of it.

Bruh I just said it meant the companies are working well together it's not that deep lol

I don't think the Limbless factor really holds him back tbh, if anything just allows for a unique moveset. It probably just depends on which order sakurai is gonna prioritize third parties

 

[3BitSaurus]

To me, the most viable SNK candidate is Terry Bogard, with Mai Shiranui behind him and my personal picks of Marco and Fio (Metal Slug) in a distant third. Kyo and even Nakoruru are outliers in that they could sneak in due to being big names in their respective series. But like, out of everyone, it's gotta be Terry. You want to talk about iconic, he's the boy! He's in Fatal Fury, KOF, and Garou!

I mean don't get me wrong, Marco and Fio would be amazing but I think the most likely SNK rep is Terry Bogard himself. Or they swerve us and put Geese on another crossover. Him joining Tekken is one of the coolest non-Smash reveals I've ever seen.

Normally I would agree. Terry is Mr. SNK himself, there's no arguing against that. The thing is, with the DLC characters being "Smash Ultimate X _____", Terry's series is still Fatal Fury. I think KOF would be more impactful overall, as it's still active and had a recent release. SNK is slowly getting their momentum back, and this has also translated in a lot of recent crossovers with other fighting games.

Not to mention Kyo is one of the very few SNK protagonists to not be in one of those crossovers yet, despite being popular, as far as I know. Smash is also one of the last notable japanese fighting games that hasn't had a crossover with SNK yet.

And yes, Marco and Fio would be great (they would be my personal SNK picks), but sadly I don't see them happening before one of the SNK fighting game characters.

 

[Untouch]

Obviously stuff like this doesn't debunk, but Mai just had a crossover with DoA.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I know Sakurai said he was hesitant with B-K or talking to Grant or whoever because of the language barrier, but I don’t remember him saying stuff about having any big problems getting B-K, plus Phil said the negotiations were easy and Sakurai and his team seem to have interpreted the duo and their game very well. Sakurai also said something about hoping this would be a good example for future stuffs or something since “they” (I guess Nintendo of Japan) don’t usually do this stuff.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Bruh I just said it meant the companies are working well together it's not that deep lol

I don't think the Limbless factor really holds him back tbh, if anything just allows for a unique moveset. It probably just depends on which order sakurai is gonna prioritize third parties

I'm not saying the limbless factor holds him back, I'm saying it could be a factor. We've never once seen anything to suggest Rayman was once considered for playable. There's a pretty fair chance Ubisoft was not a company considered. Could be a small fan demand for Rabbids/Rayman/Ezio for all we know. Like, the only Western character that has shown to have noticeable fan demand mean something right now is Banjo & Kazooie.

As for the problem with "them working together well means something", it's being read into far too deeply. It means nothing for Smash. It just means Nintendo and Ubisoft are on good terms. It doesn't mean they were ever considered for a character. Though it'd be nice if we actually saw some more major Ubisoft-related products that were a bit bigger than Starlinks and Mario + Rabbids. There's not a lack of Rayman or AC in itself, but they aren't some big crossover either. So they don't really say anything other than "ooh, a good system to put on" and that's kind of it. Crossovers speak a bit more than a general game being on there. Though I forget, isn't the Rayman game a Definitive Edition? If so, that's somewhat meaningful.

 

[Deathcarter]

Obviously stuff like this doesn't debunk, but Mai just had a crossover with DoA.

If anything Geese appearing in Tekken (currently one of the most speculated franchises in the Smash fandom) is a much bigger feather in SNK's cap and a truly good indicator of their popularity outside of the Smash speculation scene.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Rayman's a bit of a lower level icon. Competing with the Rabbids doesn't help either, as they are more tied to Nintendo as is thanks to a very specific crossover(and full of merchandise too). Never got why the crossover helped Rayman's chances at all, when it only helps Rabbids as is. Rabbids and Rayman have been treated as their own franchises by Ubisoft as is. Though I never was able to get far in the Spirits, so I don't know if they're treated as the same franchises in Smash. But being we didn't know that the Spirits would even be in while Mario + Rabbids was out, it still made little sense to tie to Rayman when he's not just absent entirely, but still a separate franchise as is.

Though I'd prefer a playable Rabbid for the first Ubisoft character. Never got into Assassin's Creed either.

The Rabbid Spirits are labeled as Mario characters.

Which doesn't do anything special for Rayman anymore than it does for Ezio. It's meaningless overall. Closest thing it did was get the obvious Rabbid spirits in at best. Rayman getting a spirit again was easily expected in comparison on its own. An unrelated game to him really doesn't help his chances at all. Not anymore than the Starlinks stuff did. Why doesn't it heavily affect Rabbids or Ezio's chances then? It should affect Rabbids the most since they're half the stars as is(a long with the Mario cast, who are pretty much in Smash anyway, bar Toad anyway). Even if it slightly helps Rayman and/or Ezio, there is no reason to ignore how much stronger it affects how important the Rabbids are viewed as by Ubisoft.

The issue is Sakurai, not Nintendo. Sakurai has a lot of trouble working with Western companies. It was noted that he had some trouble working with Microsoft too for B&K. So this might be why Rayman was never more than a trophy/spirit. Though I wouldn't be surprised if the limbless factor was an issue for him to implement too. But there's no way to tell on that front. I've seen movesets able to balance it. Of course, just cause a fan can balance something doesn't mean Sakurai thought of it.

Rabbids are a spin-off of Rayman, so that's why, hypothetically, Rabbids crossing over with Mario helps Rayman.

 

[3BitSaurus]

If anything Geese appearing in Tekken (currently one of the most speculated franchises in the Smash fandom) is a much bigger feather in SNK's cap and a truly good indicator of their popularity outside of the Smash speculation scene.

Yeah, I was thinking about this too. In a very short timespan, they released KOF XIV, then Geese appeared in Tekken, then Terry got into EX Layer, and now Mai and Kula are in DoA. I think Iori is also in a crossover, but I don't remember which.

Also, a quick reminder that KOF basically started as SNK's own crossover fighter, only getting a more nuanced storyline and its huge cast of original characters later on. So basically, Smash would be, in a way, "paying homage" to one of the first fighting games that brought different franchises together. It's actually a very interesting possibility.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The Rabbid Spirits are labeled as Mario characters.

Ah, noted.

Rabbids are a spin-off of Rayman, so that's why, hypothetically, Rabbids crossing over with Mario helps Rayman.

Ubisoft officially declares them as different franchises. It's a serious stretch that Rabbids do anything for Rayman now. Would've been a decent hypothesis back then, but things changed heavily.

 

[Deleted member]

Rabbids are a spin-off of Rayman, so that's why, hypothetically, Rabbids crossing over with Mario helps Rayman.

Persona is a spinoff of Shin Megami Tensei though, and no one from that series are in Smash currently. If anything, the Rabbids crossover helps them more than it does Rayman.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Just my two euro cents, Rayman is one of the big Icons in Europe and after Banjo and K Rool got in while poor Isaac is thoroughly NOPED he's the biggest one left.

 

[Flyboy]

Yeah, I was thinking about this too. In a very short timespan, they released KOF XIV, then Geese appeared in Tekken, then Terry got into EX Layer, and now Mai and Kula are in DoA. I think Iori is also in a crossover, but I don't remember which.

Also, a quick reminder that KOF basically started as SNK's own crossover fighter, only getting a more nuanced storyline and its huge cast of original characters later on. So basically, Smash would be, in a way, "paying homage" to one of the first fighting games that brought different franchises together. It's actually a very interesting possibility.

This is why they should add King to Smash. She hasn't been in a crossover yet and also I love her

 

[GoodGrief741]

Persona is a spinoff of Shin Megami Tensei though, and no one from that series are in Smash currently. If anything, the Rabbids crossover helps them more than it does Rayman.

I'd say that Shin Megami Tensei's history with Nintendo did help Persona though.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Smash speculation makes me realize how little I was able to explore games when I was younger. My family was kinda poor growing up so I had to be careful with that games I got. But apparently I am the only one in existence that hasn't played every JRPG, Sony Mascot, and Fighting Game since those are the three most common categories people are wanting characters from. :v

 

[Flyboy]

Okay, two things:

1. My roommate just pitched the idea of a trio "Team SNK" character that let you swap between three fighters in one on the fly, just like the KOF games. Maybe something like Terry, Mai, and Iori or something. That'd be fun.

2. Does anyone remember the old rumor about one character's series being given the "Welcome Wagon" treatment by Nintendo? What if that series was Resident Evil and not Dragon Quest as initially thought? I know Resi has been on Nintendo for ages, but this increased promotion is pretty interesting.

 

[Megadoomer]

Okay, two things:

1. My roommate just pitched the idea of a trio "Team SNK" character that let you swap between three fighters in one on the fly, just like the KOF games. Maybe something like Terry, Mai, and Iori or something. That'd be fun.

2. Does anyone remember the old rumor about one character's series being given the "Welcome Wagon" treatment by Nintendo? What if that series was Resident Evil and not Dragon Quest as initially thought? I know Resi has been on Nintendo for ages, but this increased promotion is pretty interesting.

I haven't played much in the way of modern King of Fighters games (nothing after 98, aside from a tiny bit of 14), but is there the option to switch characters on the fly? I thought that characters only switched once a character on that team loses.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'd say that Shin Megami Tensei's history with Nintendo did help Persona though.

Doubt it. There's really no evidence or anything to suggest that ties with Nintendo is an actual important factor at all. Fan demand and other factors do exist, though. Moveset potential is often far more important, though getting a recognizable character has proven time and time again to be more important than just being a cool idea. The major constant of every 3rd party is their franchise was relevant at the time of the character being developed for Smash too. Which is far more consistent than ties with Nintendo ever has been.

We have Persona content, not Shin Megami Tensei content. Sakurai strictly went there and still got zero SMT content, despite that franchise being more important to Nintendo too. It would've made tons of sense to get it since they're related. Especially since Sega plays super nicely with Nintendo and Sakurai these days. Yes it's pure Persona. Something doesn't add up. It's far more likely there was a pure intent in caring solely about Persona because it had an interesting character option, regardless of some Nintendo history(which in many cases, is not why we have a 3rd party character. Keep in mind Sakurai only said no to Sonic during Melee's development because it was simply too late to add. Not because of a lack of Nintendo history whatsoever at that point). There's far more reason to believe that Nintendo and Sakurai really don't care about Nintendo history as a factor whatsoever. It's especially notable for Cloud when he's 100% based upon non-Nintendo content entirely. The only thing we got from Square-Enix that had any relation to Nintendo specifically at that point was the Chocobo Hat, being based upon a specific Nintendo game that was a FF spin-off starring the Chocobos, and Geno's costume. That's... kind of it. The rest was pure FFVII(not KH), Dissidia, and Advent Children. FF's history with Nintendo was not mentioned whatsoever either by Sakurai. In fact, he specified two clear things; forgot about console wars and that FF's legacy as a franchise were what really mattered.

So yeah, there's really nothing backing up there was a care in the world about SMT here. Just specifically Persona, with barely one game on the Nintendo systems at that point. At best, maybe Nintendo(compared to Sakurai's personal opinion) actually doesn't want to suggest characters that never had a Nintendo appearance. Which isn't illogical for them. They want to get 3rd parties that are beneficial to them too. Sakurai doesn't care one iota about console wars, but that doesn't mean Nintendo thinks the same way. Different mindsets and all.

 

[Flyboy]

I haven't played much in the way of modern King of Fighters games (nothing after 98, aside from a tiny bit of 14), but is there the option to switch characters on the fly? I thought that characters only switched once a character on that team loses.

Yknow, we might be getting confused with the Vs. Series.

Too many crossover fighters, dammit!

 

[ThatOneAnon]

Doubt it. There's really no evidence or anything to suggest that ties with Nintendo is an actual important factor at all. Fan demand and other factors do exist, though. Moveset potential is often far more important, though getting a recognizable character has proven time and time again to be more important than just being a cool idea. The major constant of every 3rd party is their franchise was relevant at the time of the character being developed for Smash too. Which is far more consistent than ties with Nintendo ever has been.

We have Persona content, not Shin Megami Tensei content. Sakurai strictly went there and still got zero SMT content, despite that franchise being more important to Nintendo too. It would've made tons of sense to get it since they're related. Especially since Sega plays super nicely with Nintendo and Sakurai these days. Yes it's pure Persona. Something doesn't add up. It's far more likely there was a pure intent in caring solely about Persona because it had an interesting character option, regardless of some Nintendo history(which in many cases, is not why we have a 3rd party character. Keep in mind Sakurai only said no to Sonic during Melee's development because it was simply too late to add. Not because of a lack of Nintendo history whatsoever at that point). There's far more reason to believe that Nintendo and Sakurai really don't care about Nintendo history as a factor whatsoever. It's especially notable for Cloud when he's 100% based upon non-Nintendo content entirely. The only thing we got from Square-Enix that had any relation to Nintendo specifically at that point was the Chocobo Hat, being based upon a specific Nintendo game that was a FF spin-off starring the Chocobos, and Geno's costume. That's... kind of it. The rest was pure FFVII(not KH), Dissidia, and Advent Children. FF's history with Nintendo was not mentioned whatsoever either by Sakurai. In fact, he specified two clear things; forgot about console wars and that FF's legacy as a franchise were what really mattered.

So yeah, there's really nothing backing up there was a care in the world about SMT here. Just specifically Persona, with barely one game on the Nintendo systems at that point. At best, maybe Nintendo(compared to Sakurai's personal opinion) actually doesn't want to suggest characters that never had a Nintendo appearance. Which isn't illogical for them. They want to get 3rd parties that are beneficial to them too. Sakurai doesn't care one iota about console wars, but that doesn't mean Nintendo thinks the same way. Different mindsets and all.

The one thing connecting every Smash character is that they've appeared in a game on a Nintendo console before. I don't particularly like fan rules, but I feel like this is one thing we can absolutely count on to stay true in the future.
If they were in a game on Nintendo, that technically makes them part of Nintendo history right? I also do like how Sakurai treated Persona the same way he treats DK, Yoshi and Wario in relation to Mario Bros.: As its own separate series. This also means if SMT representation ever does happen (which seems likely for Smash 6 if SMTV does well) it'll be treated separately from Persona.

 

[Nquoid]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Cloud is the only third party character to not be playable in a Nintendo exclusive title right? Obviously Final Fantasy's history with Nintendo is well documented. But Cloud is the one character who kind of bends the perception towards franchises with a footprint on Nintendo consoles rather than characters

 

[BlueMonk]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Cloud is the only third party character to not be playable in a Nintendo exclusive title right? Obviously Final Fantasy's history with Nintendo is well documented. But Cloud is the one character who kind of bends the perception towards franchises with a footprint on Nintendo consoles rather than characters

cloud was in theatrhythm final fantasy. But both Cloud and Joker's nintendo appearances are negligible, I doubt Sakurai considered them when he chose the characters.

 

[Ridrool64]

IF we were to get DLC content beyond this pass (which I doubt), what are the chances of us being back a base-game post 8/8 Direct situation? (The stage total ends at 108 for good, and jeopardizes the chances of new series characters while therefore making repped series characters more likely.) I say this because the DLC stages fill out the bottom row, and apparently that empty spot represents custom stages when using online. Unless they expand the length of the stage select screen, or make a DLC tab and move the other stages there, when that comes to pass we might be looking at first parties only from then on.

Would suck for 80% of casuals and probably about 60% of us, who have at least one third party we really want, but I do think that's a possibility for us to account for.

cloud was in theatrhythm final fantasy.

Isn't that available on iOS as well? It debuted on Nintendo consoles, yes, but I'm pretty sure an iOS release is a thing. So Cloud still hasn't shown up on a Nintendo exclusive.

Depending on your (Nquoid's) definition of exclusive, though, I don't believe Ryu or Ken have made any appearances on Nintendo consoles that weren't multiplat. At least, none come to mind.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

cloud was in theatrhythm final fantasy. But both Cloud and Joker's nintendo appearances are negligible, I doubt Sakurai considered them when he chose the characters.

Negligible but still existent. That's the key, the difference between them and someone like Kratos or Chief.