Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

The only thing I don't really like when referring to a character as a "promotional pick" or a "shill" is the negative connotation applied to it. It reminds me of the anti-DQ arguments saying that Square wants to put Erdrick in only to advertise Dragon Quest more to the west which I don't doubt is one of their reasons for wanting Hero in Smash, but as Chinderblock said no one is purely a promotional pick. Dragon Quest has earned it's way in on virtue of being a legacy series and a megaton hit in Japan. "Promotional picks" can still be fun inclusions to have.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Yeah choosing a character from a recent game is okay, but if it's only because it's the most-recent then it's weird.

Though I don't think that's the case for most characters, but it seems to be for Pokemon, which is disappointing imo. Greninja and Incineroar are cool, but if Sakurai and Nintendo keep following this pattern, then that means we'll never get Pokemon from any older Gen. This leaves people hoping for Pokemon from past gens but almost certainly never getting them, which is sad for me because I'd really like Gengar. Gengar isn't even in the game as a Pokeball Pokemon, only as a spirit...

Choosing Luminary as the face of DQ seems like a good decision imo because he seems like the one most people would be familiar with, though that doesn't mean DQ was added just to advertise it for Square.

 

[Idon]

Yeah choosing a character from a recent game is okay, but if it's only because it's the most-recent then it's weird.

Though I don't think that's the case for most characters, but it seems to be for Pokemon, which is disappointing imo. Greninja and Incineroar are cool, but if Sakurai and Nintendo keep following this pattern, then that means we'll never get Pokemon from any older Gen. This leaves people hoping for Pokemon from past gens but almost certainly never getting them, which is sad for me because I'd really like Gengar. Gengar isn't even in the game as a Pokeball Pokemon, only as a spirit...

Sucks for the pokemon generations that didn't manage to overlap with a recent Smash title since they're skimped out forever now.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

The only thing I don't really like when referring to a character as a "promotional pick" or a "shill" is the negative connotation applied to it. It reminds me of the anti-DQ arguments saying that Square wants to put Erdrick in only to advertise Dragon Quest more to the west which I don't doubt is one of their reasons for wanting Hero in Smash, but as Chinderblock said no one is purely a promotional pick. Dragon Quest has earned it's way in on virtue of being a legacy series and a megaton hit in Japan. "Promotional picks" can still be fun inclusions to have.

Then there are those who don't want DQ due to its composers' views on WWII, but it's best not to dwell into that...

That being said, I consider DQ, like BK, to be a Nintendo series at heart despite later events, seeing as its origins came on the humble NES.

Sucks for the pokemon generationa that didn't manage to overlap with a recent Smash title since they're skimped out forever now.

Occasionally I show pity for those Grovyle and Deoxys fans. I can't imagine how they felt when a Gen wunner got in Brawl.

Yeah choosing a character from a recent game is okay, but if it's only because it's the most-recent then it's weird.

Though I don't think that's the case for most characters, but it seems to be for Pokemon, which is disappointing imo. Greninja and Incineroar are cool, but if Sakurai and Nintendo keep following this pattern, then that means we'll never get Pokemon from any older Gen. This leaves people hoping for Pokemon from past gens but almost certainly never getting them, which is sad for me because I'd really like Gengar. Gengar isn't even in the game as a Pokeball Pokemon, only as a spirit...

Choosing Luminary as the face of DQ seems like a good decision imo because he seems like the one most people would be familiar with, though that doesn't mean DQ was added just to advertise it for Square.

Yeah, the worst part is that as long as Pokémon lasts, it will never stop having its numbers increase, and there are hundreds of them. Not even Fire Emblem has it this bad.

At least with other series, there is a chance that you'll eventually have your character picked for Smash if you ask for them loudly enough. Not with Pokémon, your fave isn't chosen by the big guys? You're SOL unless a Pokémon from an older gen (most likely 1) gets a recent push.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Sucks for the pokemon generationa that didn't manage to overlap with a recent Smash title since they're skimped out forever now.

Plus it sucks for people who aren't satisfied with a generation's rep.

Although, Chrom did get in after Awakening stopped being the newest FE...in a cheap way.

 

[Nquoid]

Yeah choosing a character from a recent game is okay, but if it's only because it's the most-recent then it's weird.

Though I don't think that's the case for most characters, but it seems to be for Pokemon, which is disappointing imo. Greninja and Incineroar are cool, but if Sakurai and Nintendo keep following this pattern, then that means we'll never get Pokemon from any older Gen. This leaves people hoping for Pokemon from past gens but almost certainly never getting them, which is sad for me because I'd really like Gengar. Gengar isn't even in the game as a Pokeball Pokemon, only as a spirit...

Choosing Luminary as the face of DQ seems like a good decision imo because he seems like the one most people would be familiar with, though that doesn't mean DQ was added just to advertise it for Square.

This is what I find so conflicting about Incineroar. In terms of popularity, you'd probably chose Decidueye, but Incineroar brings something we havent seen in Smash before. But it is also the Pokemon that the Pokemon Company put its money behind because in the anime that's who Ash is still likely to end up with.

The gen 3 starters get a whole lot of love and Blaziken and Sceptile would fit in great. But Brawl prioritised Gen 4 and Lucario over them

 

[Guynamednelson]

This is what I find so conflicting about Incineroar. In terms of popularity, you'd probably chose Decidueye

Japan doesn't like Decidueye that much. It'd be Rowlet, Mimikyu, or [REDACTED] that got in instead. Note that the censored Pokemon name is also who Ash actually ended up with.

 

[Nemuresu]

Japan doesn't like Decidueye that much. It'd be Rowlet, Mimikyu, or [REDACTED] that got in instead. Note that the censored Pokemon name is also who Ash actually ended up with.

What's wrong with Primarina?

EDIT: Sorry, didn't notice the edit.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I mean, it is a video game after all. The biggest reason particular characters get picked is because of gameplay.

Incineroar is a wrestler, which nobody else does. Greninja is a ninja frog, but plays completely differently from Sheik. Corrin is unique in how their projectiles/pin moves work, which no other Fire Emblem character can do.

Gameplay is the most important part of any character, because we play this game. We can sit here talking about sales or being a popular character, but what matters is, “Is the character unique and fun?” If yes, then I really don’t give a damn nearly as much.

I may have a preference for Dante or a Resident Evil pick, mainly because legacy picks are awesome. But it’s also because I have no doubt that the characters would be super fun, at least if you ask me.

Idk, sometimes I just really wonder if folks who post about character speculation play the game or just buy it and stare. Not necessarily anybody here, but like...some other threads or sites?

Shudders

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Seems like alien logic to compare "character was added to Smash before debuting in a game" to "iconic 1997 character was added to a game in 2015 to promote a game that was barely entering full development, wasn't going to release on Nintendo consoles and wouldn't get a release date until 4 years later".

Wanting a character from the latest game of a series, for no reason other than being the latest, is the stupid decision making process that most people label as being 'promotional'. The association is not without merit.

The association is without merit. It wasn't a key factor. It's literally relevance, not advertisement. There's a vast difference. It's not stupid whatsoever. It's the most recognizable character you can get right then and there. Which is going to make Smash itself sell better or the character sell better. Being in the spotlight is extremely important.

Greninja is the exact same thing as Cloud. Both were added because they were interesting representatives of their franchises. Neither were added to promote their latest game at all. That's trying to force a reason instead of looking at why it happened. You don't promote a game that's literally not coming out for a long time or is already out by the time of the Smash game release. Neither were relevant reasons to bother. Cloud was relevant as of KH anyway. Which is my my other point; every 3rd party so far added to Smash was relevant at the time of being added. Which is actually more of why Luminary is the face, not Erdrick or anyone else. Because he's the most relevant Hero to use.

But Cloud literally isn't an example of what I said?

I just said, characters that debut in Smash less than a year after they debut in a video game have a whiff of promotionality to them. Sakurai could have chosen a gen 5 Pokemon who had been established, but obviously he went with Greninja. And it paid off.

Cloud, a character introduced in 1997 showing up in Smash in 2015 is promotional of Final Fantasy and the remake. But also he was added to the game because he has almost 20 years of legacy.

To me, when I say promotional, I mean, there is no way that Sakurai or Nintendo could know whether this character has actually landed with fans when they chose them, because they're in development at the same time. Greninja is 100% that risk. Pokemon X and Y came out in October 2013, Greninja was announced in April 2014 for Smash 4. It just so happened that gamble paid off.

Cloud is an example of Greninja. They were both chosen as relevant characters among the franchise then and there. They were both notable for their own reasons. Greninja had the moveset Sakurai wanted. Cloud was the de facto Final Fantasy character to add. Both were heavily relevant among their franchises, which is a big reason why they were able to get in as well. Sakurai honestly doesn't care that much about whether or not the character will be super popular when adding them, honestly(that is, for newer characters). He's well aware that Greninja could go either way. That's not a relevant factor either. Either the character was plausible due to moveset potential, or they weren't. And in this case, they were. Being a Pokemon, that was instantly going to do fine enough for a base character. All the base characters have relevancy via their franchise when they were added, so it's not like it's honestly as risky as people try to say it is. DLC is when characters become risky. The only time where you have to think more carefully of, since they have to sell on their own merits.

Cloud wasn't promotional at all. Not sure where you're getting the idea he was trying to promote FF as a whole or the remake. He literally is nothing but classic FFVII, Dissidia, and Advent Children, none of the 3 games which were getting remotely promoted at the time. No, the remake is not the same as the original. Again, the reasons you're thinking of don't actually exist. You're mistaking the idea of "being the best representative of a franchise" with "being there to promote the franchise". Cloud is not an example of remotely promoting the franchise as is. The only thing he, again, promotes, at best, is the original PSX Final Fantasy VII game, a bit of Dissidia, and some of Advent Children. The closest thing to anything else is the Chocobo Hat(which had nothing to do with FF as a whole, and more was billed under FFVII and was also using a spin-off game for its design) and the Geno costume(which obviously has nothing to do with FF either).

Greninja wasn't promoting anything either. He was just the best new character that showed up and was plausible within the relevancy window. If he didn't get chosen, there wasn't really other choices either. There's literally zero evidence other Pokemon were fully on the table as is. Unlike with Incineroar, who got in over Decidueye. The only other option. Again, these aren't "promotional picks" in the way you think they are. They're relevancy-based picks. Sure, they technically are promotion-like, but that's no different from Mario being promotional-like for the Super Mario games. Or Banjo being promotional-like for the latest merchandise and the current Rare Replay. That's how unique Greninja and Cloud's promotional usage was. That is, not really there to promote a specific game whatsoever. It's just good timing the remake was announced before Cloud was, which at best put him more in the spotlight.

On the other hand, Luminary might actually be like Corrin and Roy, chosen as the face because it's the latest game in the franchise and to directly promote it. The actual timing of the Nintendo direct implies that's why he's the face. It doesn't mean it's the exact reason. Relevancy is probably more the role than promoting a specific game. Though really, the fact Cloud's franchise says "Final Fantasy VII", not referring to the remake, pretty clearly tells you he wasn't there to promote anything but his own game anyway. Luminary absolutely looks like he's there to promote the latest game. But to be frank, I don't see the issue either because it's just not the entire point of the character, it's just a good face to make him sell better.

 

[Idon]

I mean, it is a video game after all. The biggest reason particular character get picked is because of gameplay.

Incineroar is a wrestler, which nobody else does. Greninja is a ninja frog, but plays completely differently from Sheik. Corrin is unique in how their projectiles/pin moves work, which no other Fire Emblem character can do.

Gameplay is the most important part of any character, because we play this game. We can sit here talking about sales or being a popular character, but what matters is, “Is the character unique and fun?” If yes, then I really don’t give a damn nearly as much.

I may have a preference for Dante or a Resident Evil pick, mainly because legacy picks are awesome. But it’s also because I have no doubt that the characters would be super fun, at least if you ask me.

Idk, sometimes I just really wonder if folks who post about character speculation play the game or just buy it and stare. Not necessarily anybody here, but like...some other threads or sites?

Shudders

The issue is EVERY fictional character has the potential to be "unique" and "fun" and moving the goalpost to say "these characters are good and justified to be in Smash above all others because they're fun" is ultimately meaningless because you can't argue a game character's "fun" factor compared to a hypothetical one's because one, that's subjective and two, we wouldn't know what a fighter would've played like if he HAD been chosen.

See fighting game rosters are more than their gameplay, they're the characters they choose and a person's affection or dislike from a character doesn't always come from how they play. If you want to look at a game that functions purely on unqiue character gameplay, look at MvCI which was panned and how they placed a priority on functions over beloved characters. Conversely look at something like Tenkaichi Budokai 3 which was loved despite having literal hundreds of characters, most of which played essentially the same.

Besides, no one's arguing whoever or whatever isn't fun, because someone out there finds something any character brings is fun. At the point we stop considering whether people actually want characters it's a smarter business decision to pick characters from unreleased games because they'll be "fun" regardless.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The issue is EVERY fictional character has the potential to be "unique" and "fun" and moving the goalpost to say "these characters are good and justified to be in Smash above all others because they're fun" is ultimately meaningless because you can't argue a game character's "fun" factor compared to a hypothetical one's because one, that's subjective and two, we wouldn't know what a fighter would've played like if he HAD been chosen.

See fighting game rosters are more than their gameplay, they're the characters they choose and a person's affection or dislike from a character doesn't always come from how they play. If you want to look at a game that functions purely on unqiue character gameplay, look at MvCI which was panned and how they placed a priority on functions over beloved characters. Conversely look at something like Tenkaichi Budokai 3 which was loved despite having literal hundreds of characters, most of which played essentially the same.

Besides, no one's arguing whoever or whatever isn't fun, because someone out there finds something any character brings is fun. At the point we stop considering whether people actually want characters it's a smarter business decision to pick characters from unreleased games because they'll be "fun" regardless.

A better way to put it is any character can work. Sakurai just picks relevant ones way more often, especially as DLC, since selling them is still important. Especially since you have to get the 3rd party company to agree. Some are hesitant to do so unless the character/franchise is being used in some way. Coincidentally, that's been the case with every 3rd party so far. In fact, the only non-relevant characters we've had are veterans and retros at best. So far. But that could change at any point.

 

[Nquoid]

Cloud is an example of Greninja.

No?

I agree with you that these characters weren't JUST chosen because they promote games, but a character who is chosen to be in Smash when they literally didn't exist when development started is a conscious decision to align with a new game. I don't actually think Luminary counts in the same way because Dragon Quest XI came out in 2017 and has proven to be massively successful. Maybe the decision to debut his character and then follow it immediately with a trailer for Dragon Quest XI S in the direct is cynical, but Luminary and Joker have both existed for years between debut in their respective games and debut in Smash.

But to say that Cloud, who has years and years of history. Lots of games, fans and demand is the same as a character who Sakurai came up with a moveset for based on concept art and that didn't even have a finalised name yet is baffling. Greninja was THE Pokemon that TPC promoted for Gen 6. I'm sure Sakurai had final say over which Pokemon got in. But to imagine he wasn't probably shown a pre approved list of who to pick from Gen 6 and who they wanted to promote seems wilfully ignorant of how these kind of discussions at large companies actually happen

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

The issue is EVERY fictional character has the potential to be "unique" and "fun" and moving the goalpost to say "these characters are good and justified to be in Smash above all others because they're fun" is ultimately meaningless because you can't argue a game character's "fun" factor compared to a hypothetical one's because one, that's subjective and two, we wouldn't know what a fighter would've played like if he HAD been chosen.

See fighting game rosters are more than their gameplay, they're the characters they choose and a person's affection or dislike from a character doesn't always come from how they play. If you want to look at a game that functions purely on unqiue character gameplay, look at MvCI which was panned and how they placed a priority on functions over beloved characters. Conversely look at something like Tenkaichi Budokai 3 which was loved despite having literal hundreds of characters, most of which played essentially the same.

Besides, no one's arguing whoever or whatever isn't fun, because someone out there finds something any character brings is fun. At the point we stop considering whether people actually want characters it's a smarter business decision to pick characters from unreleased games because they'll be "fun" regardless.

You’re absolutely right. The thing is though, that there are plenty of fans out there who view the game as a character select screen and nothing else.

My point wasn’t to say that gameplay is the only thing that matters. Far from it, especially for a crossover game that relies on star power. My point is more that certain picks are made because of gameplay as opposed to what is immediately expected or considered the most popular.

For example, when Greninja was revealed most people thought it was going to be Mewtwo because of how popular he was, and the fact that everybody wanted him back. Sakurai could have done that, but he didn’t. He opted for something new, and it stuck pretty well. Granted, that’s assuming the plan for Mewtwo as DLC wasn’t already in place.

It’s a mixed bag when it comes to why characters are picked, i’d say. But I really don’t see promotional picks as bad, especially if they bring something new and are fun to play.

I wasn’t really moving a goalpost. I was more saying that as long as the character that is chosen is fun, or at least different from a good percentage of the roster, it shouldn’t be seen as a bad thing.

Then again, once you border 80 characters, there are going to start being similarities. But I digress.

 

[Garteam]

Personally, this the order I would rank these qualities in terms of importance to Smash:
-General attributes and moveset
-Star power
-importance to the franchise
-thematic or aesthetic uniqueness

I'm willing to put up with multiple characters of the same archetype, provided they play somewhat differently. Sheik and Greninja are probably the best examples of this being done right. Both are fall under the category of "ninja", but play completely differently in basically every single way.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

No?

I agree with you that these characters weren't JUST chosen because they promote games, but a character who is chosen to be in Smash when they literally didn't exist when development started is a conscious decision to align with a new game. I don't actually think Luminary counts in the same way because Dragon Quest XI came out in 2017 and has proven to be massively successful. Maybe the decision to debut his character and then follow it immediately with a trailer for Dragon Quest XI S in the direct is cynical, but Luminary and Joker have both existed for years between debut in their respective games and debut in Smash.

But to say that Cloud, who has years and years of history. Lots of games, fans and demand is the same as a character who Sakurai came up with a moveset for based on concept art and that didn't even have a finalised name yet is baffling. Greninja was THE Pokemon that TPC promoted for Gen 6. I'm sure Sakurai had final say over which Pokemon got in. But to imagine he wasn't probably shown a pre approved list of who to pick from Gen 6 and who they wanted to promote seems wilfully ignorant of how these kind of discussions at large companies actually happen

Greninja wasn't chosen because TPC promoted anything. It was chosen because Sakurai actually set aside a slot for a Pokemon from X/Y because... it's Pokemon. Moveset potential won out over anything. If he didn't see a moveset, we wouldn't have a new Pokemon in 4.

They were both chosen as notable representatives of their franchises. So yes, they're still the same overall situation. You actually think the legacy mattered itself? It didn't in the way you're saying it does. Cloud was just the most popular option. It's FF's own legacy that mattered(as said by Sakurai himself, noting he wanted someone from FF because of its massive legacy), not Cloud's. Just like with Pokemon, it has a massive legacy, which is why a slot was created for a new Pokemon as is. Same reason we have Incineroar. Legacy of the franchise.

Character legacy doesn't inherently play a role at all. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Cloud's not a legacy example. In fact, it's not often we have legacy reasons for the literal character. MegaMan is actually a far better example as he wasn't just requested, but he wanted a specific version of him. And that's not really it entirely. Sonic is actually your Legacy 3rd Party character. It's generally the franchise's legacy that has way more of an impact than the character itself. It's why the franchise matters too, not just the character.

 

[Nquoid]

Greninja wasn't chosen because TPC promoted anything. It was chosen because Sakurai actually set aside a slot for a Pokemon from X/Y because... it's Pokemon. Moveset potential won out over anything. If he didn't see a moveset, we wouldn't have a new Pokemon in 4.

They were both chosen as notable representatives of their franchises. So yes, they're still the same overall situation. You actually think the legacy mattered itself? It didn't in the way you're saying it does. Cloud was just the most popular option. It's FF's own legacy that mattered(as said by Sakurai himself, noting he wanted someone from FF because of its massive legacy), not Cloud's. Just like with Pokemon, it has a massive legacy, which is why a slot was created for a new Pokemon as is. Same reason we have Incineroar. Legacy of the franchise.

Character legacy doesn't inherently play a role at all. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Cloud's not a legacy example. In fact, it's not often we have legacy reasons for the literal character. MegaMan is actually a far better example as he wasn't just requested, but he wanted a specific version of him. And that's not really it entirely. Sonic is actually your Legacy 3rd Party character. It's generally the franchise's legacy that has way more of an impact than the character itself. It's why the franchise matters too, not just the character.

So it is entirely coincidence that every single Pokemon in Smash is a Pokemon that had a massive marketing push behind it? I genuinely think you think Sakurai has more sway than he does. He can't just chose any Pokemon he wants. Yes he left a space because Pokemon is huge. But he is definitely nudged in the direction of relevant Pokemon. Lucario, Greninja and Incineroar were all over Pokemon marketing and the anime.

As for Cloud, Square were genuinely surprised that was the character that he asked for. They thought he'd pick Terra or someone. You can argue that he thought Cloud had the more interesting move set. But Cloud is also the character that transcends the franchise.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I mean, it is a video game after all. The biggest reason particular characters get picked is because of gameplay.

Incineroar is a wrestler, which nobody else does. Greninja is a ninja frog, but plays completely differently from Sheik. Corrin is unique in how their projectiles/pin moves work, which no other Fire Emblem character can do.

Gameplay is the most important part of any character, because we play this game. We can sit here talking about sales or being a popular character, but what matters is, “Is the character unique and fun?” If yes, then I really don’t give a damn nearly as much.

I may have a preference for Dante or a Resident Evil pick, mainly because legacy picks are awesome. But it’s also because I have no doubt that the characters would be super fun, at least if you ask me.

Idk, sometimes I just really wonder if folks who post about character speculation play the game or just buy it and stare. Not necessarily anybody here, but like...some other threads or sites?

Shudders

Thing is, when every character can be made fun, and since Smash is a crossover game, people will put more value in the character itself over the moveset. Sakurai saying that so-and-so got in because of their unique moveset rings hollow, because of the tons of characters with unique movesets that don't get in and the many characters with tired, redundant movesets that do.

Still, it's an attitude that is changing. People don't want swordfighters because they are perceived as all being the same, people don't like the overabundance of stuff like counters and meters.

I would say there's a problem with Sakurai's character selection, though, as sometimes he seems to neglect uniqueness when people want it or favors uniqueness when people want something less unique.

The association is without merit. It wasn't a key factor. It's literally relevance, not advertisement. There's a vast difference. It's not stupid whatsoever. It's the most recognizable character you can get right then and there. Which is going to make Smash itself sell better or the character sell better. Being in the spotlight is extremely important.

Greninja is the exact same thing as Cloud. Both were added because they were interesting representatives of their franchises. Neither were added to promote their latest game at all. That's trying to force a reason instead of looking at why it happened. You don't promote a game that's literally not coming out for a long time or is already out by the time of the Smash game release. Neither were relevant reasons to bother. Cloud was relevant as of KH anyway. Which is my my other point; every 3rd party so far added to Smash was relevant at the time of being added. Which is actually more of why Luminary is the face, not Erdrick or anyone else. Because he's the most relevant Hero to use.


Cloud is an example of Greninja. They were both chosen as relevant characters among the franchise then and there. They were both notable for their own reasons. Greninja had the moveset Sakurai wanted. Cloud was the de facto Final Fantasy character to add. Both were heavily relevant among their franchises, which is a big reason why they were able to get in as well. Sakurai honestly doesn't care that much about whether or not the character will be super popular when adding them, honestly(that is, for newer characters). He's well aware that Greninja could go either way. That's not a relevant factor either. Either the character was plausible due to moveset potential, or they weren't. And in this case, they were. Being a Pokemon, that was instantly going to do fine enough for a base character. All the base characters have relevancy via their franchise when they were added, so it's not like it's honestly as risky as people try to say it is. DLC is when characters become risky. The only time where you have to think more carefully of, since they have to sell on their own merits.

Cloud wasn't promotional at all. Not sure where you're getting the idea he was trying to promote FF as a whole or the remake. He literally is nothing but classic FFVII, Dissidia, and Advent Children, none of the 3 games which were getting remotely promoted at the time. No, the remake is not the same as the original. Again, the reasons you're thinking of don't actually exist. You're mistaking the idea of "being the best representative of a franchise" with "being there to promote the franchise". Cloud is not an example of remotely promoting the franchise as is. The only thing he, again, promotes, at best, is the original PSX Final Fantasy VII game, a bit of Dissidia, and some of Advent Children. The closest thing to anything else is the Chocobo Hat(which had nothing to do with FF as a whole, and more was billed under FFVII and was also using a spin-off game for its design) and the Geno costume(which obviously has nothing to do with FF either).

Greninja wasn't promoting anything either. He was just the best new character that showed up and was plausible within the relevancy window. If he didn't get chosen, there wasn't really other choices either. There's literally zero evidence other Pokemon were fully on the table as is. Unlike with Incineroar, who got in over Decidueye. The only other option. Again, these aren't "promotional picks" in the way you think they are. They're relevancy-based picks. Sure, they technically are promotion-like, but that's no different from Mario being promotional-like for the Super Mario games. Or Banjo being promotional-like for the latest merchandise and the current Rare Replay. That's how unique Greninja and Cloud's promotional usage was. That is, not really there to promote a specific game whatsoever. It's just good timing the remake was announced before Cloud was, which at best put him more in the spotlight.

On the other hand, Luminary might actually be like Corrin and Roy, chosen as the face because it's the latest game in the franchise and to directly promote it. The actual timing of the Nintendo direct implies that's why he's the face. It doesn't mean it's the exact reason. Relevancy is probably more the role than promoting a specific game. Though really, the fact Cloud's franchise says "Final Fantasy VII", not referring to the remake, pretty clearly tells you he wasn't there to promote anything but his own game anyway. Luminary absolutely looks like he's there to promote the latest game. But to be frank, I don't see the issue either because it's just not the entire point of the character, it's just a good face to make him sell better.

'Greninja is the same exact thing as Cloud' yeah I stopped reading. Can't believe anyone would type that, read it, and post it anyways.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Incineroar were all over Pokemon marketing and the anime.

How much Incineroar is actually being pushed is exaggerated by people who want to justify his inclusion in Smash. It didn't get a unique form or Z-move in USUM.

 

[Nquoid]

How much Incineroar is actually being pushed is exaggerated by people who want to justify his inclusion in Smash. It didn't get a unique form or Z-move in USUM.

Isn't part of the anime the fact that Ash's Torracat has rivalry with Kukui's Incineroar?

Also sure about the unique form or Z-Move, but Ash Greninja didn't debut till Sun & Moon in the games. TPC sets out their marketing strategy years in advance, and Incineroar has had more of a push than Decidueye and Primarina.

 

[Deleted member]

Now that someone mentioned it, can Sheik be considered a Bard archetype-wise?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Incineroar has had more of a push than Decidueye and Primarina.

But it also had less of a push than Mimikyu and Lycanroc, who got unique Z-Moves and a new form for the latter.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So it is entirely coincidence that every single Pokemon in Smash is a Pokemon that had a massive marketing push behind it? I genuinely think you think Sakurai has more sway than he does. He can't just chose any Pokemon he wants. Yes he left a space because Pokemon is huge. But he is definitely nudged in the direction of relevant Pokemon. Lucario, Greninja and Incineroar were all over Pokemon marketing and the anime.

As for Cloud, Square were genuinely surprised that was the character that he asked for. They thought he'd pick Terra or someone. You can argue that he thought Cloud had the more interesting move set. But Cloud is also the character that transcends the franchise.

It's 100% coincidence when it comes to Incineroar and Greninja. Those didn't get the marketing push till after Sakurai chose them. If anything, it's TPC basing their marketing off of Sakurai's decision, not the other way around in those specific cases. Incineroar, as noted above, didn't get a lot of marketing in the way you think it did. Greninja didn't get marketing till after it was chosen for Smash. It was chosen before the games were out entirely. Ash-Greninja existed well after the Smash character was chosen. It probably got that form because they felt pushing a character that was chosen for Smash is beneficial.

Some, sure. Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Charizard, Pichu, Lucario. Squirtle was chosen because Blastoise was unfeasible for a balance moveset, and Ivysaur is the last one out by elimination. Notice how only 8/10 were already out before Smash in itself? Yeah, there's a reason for that. They were either plausible or relevant at the time.

You missed the reason why he went for a FF character, due to its legacy. Cloud was the obvious choice, because of who he is. He's the most popular of all time. He never spoke about Cloud's own legacy at all(compared to the franchise's), just his popularity. So yeah, he transcends the franchise, sure. But you're missing the part where popularity was the actual factor when going for a specific character. In fact, Hero is probably more of a case of getting in due to the legacy of the class, compared to Cloud getting in due to his own popularity.

 

[Nquoid]

It's 100% coincidence when it comes to Incineroar and Greninja. Those didn't get the marketing push till after Sakurai chose them. If anything, it's TPC basing their marketing off of Sakurai's decision, not the other way around in those specific cases. Incineroar, as noted above, didn't get a lot of marketing in the way you think it did. Greninja didn't get marketing till after it was chosen for Smash. It was chosen before the games were out entirely. Ash-Greninja existed well after the Smash character was chosen. It probably got that form because they felt pushing a character that was chosen for Smash is beneficial.

Some, sure. Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Charizard, Pichu, Lucario. Squirtle was chosen because Blastoise was unfeasible for a balance moveset, and Ivysaur is the last one out by elimination. Notice how only 8/10 were already out before Smash in itself? Yeah, there's a reason for that. They were either plausible or relevant at the time.

Ash catches Froakie in October 2013, before Greninja was revealed for Smash. Animation doesn't have a short production schedule. They had things planned, especially considering it's the only starter Pokemon Ash catches in X&Y. Maybe Ash Greninja hadn't been designed, but Greninja was who they wanted to ultimately promote. The Pokemon Company does what the Pokemon Company wants, Smash would have very little impact over their decisions.

And I'm done. Not responding to anything about this anymore because it's off topic and everyone is reading too much onto situations that no one is going to be completely transparent about.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ash catches Froakie in October 2013, before Greninja was revealed for Smash. Animation doesn't have a short production schedule. They had things planned, especially considering it's the only starter Pokemon Ash catches in X&Y. Maybe Ash Greninja hadn't been designed, but Greninja was who they wanted to ultimately promote. The Pokemon Company does what the Pokemon Company wants, Smash would have very little impact over their decisions.

And I'm done. Not responding to anything about this anymore because it's off topic and everyone is reading too much onto situations that no one is going to be completely transparent about.

Greninja was chosen way before that. Did you even read the interview? Greninja was chosen based upon concept art before X/Y and the Anime premiered. You're looking at it entirely wrong. Development happened way beforehand. The only other possibility is that Greninja was chosen for Ash regardless of the Smash thing, being a coincidence. Sakurai did not choose Greninja in any way related to the anime at all. There's absolutely zero evidence to suggest that.

https://www.siliconera.com/2014/06/10/super-smash-bros-characters-decided-upon-early-development/ Here's the interview. All it notes is concept art at best. I'll find the Incineroar one later. But yeah, it's Pokemon. Of course it got a new character. People expect one for a reason.

Likewise with Incineroar. He was chosen based upon concept art, which while it did show the Pokemon with Ash as well, it's notable that Sakurai specified he wanted the cat because of Wrestling. It had, again, nothing to do with the anime. He'd have mentioned it if it was related, but it wasn't. What you said was absolutely incorrect and has no actual basis when actually researched. Sure, it's remotely possible Sakurai was told they were going to be in the anime, but zero evidence suggests that. In addition, all the statements suggest it was an irrelevant factor and he's already aware Starters show up in the anime all the time, so it's not like it even matters. Both are purely concept art and "I liked this moveset" more, along with "Pokemon should have a new entry due to its legacy". There's zero evidence to suggest otherwise at this time.

 

[KatKit]

No idea why, but I hope that Nintendo says screw it, and gives us an ARMS rep; at this point, that'd be a genuine surprise. That game came out of nowhere when it was first announced, and I hope they do that again with a potential sequel. I'm going to throw an even bigger curveball and predict that Nintendo ignores the two likely promotional reps (Ribbon Girl/Spring Man) and gives us Twintelle just because she's that cool and because Sakurai is a man of culture.

 

[Untouch]

I think more than ever that DLC wasn't chosen to "shill", but to strengthen 3rd party relationships.
Microsoft is doing a lot with the Switch right now, Square and SEGA were the first 2 companies to announce games for the Switch.
It's why I think the next 2 characters are going to be SNK and Bethesda.

 

[StrawHatX]

I think more than ever that DLC wasn't chosen to "shill", but to strengthen 3rd party relationships.
Microsoft is doing a lot with the Switch right now, Square and SEGA were the first 2 companies to announce games for the Switch.
It's why I think the next 2 characters are going to be SNK and Bethesda.

Probably a bit of both. Helps promote Smash and whatever series the character is from. Both companies win.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

Pikachu and Eevee also had normal Spirits though

One was a playable fighter and one was a pokeball summon. They had to have spirits in the base game anyway you slice it.

Anyway that was only brought up as an example of post launch spirits added to the game due to the release of another game. I don't think referencing Pikachu and Eevee's spirits already being the game means anything for where Sylux is at.

 

[Ridrool64]

I wonder... while Sakurai is somebody who wouldn't care about sales or promotion as much as uniqueness, creativity, and other possible factors, I do think that Nintendo would want that. So I don't doubt they would've put a "shill" pick on the list, just Sakurai would be unlikely to go for it if he couldn't think of a better reason. Hey, speaking of, who are characters you think made the list but were turned down, or just passed over?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

No idea why, but I hope that Nintendo says screw it, and gives us an ARMS rep; at this point, that'd be a genuine surprise. That game came out of nowhere when it was first announced, and I hope they do that again with a potential sequel. I'm going to throw an even bigger curveball and predict that Nintendo ignores the two likely promotional reps (Ribbon Girl/Spring Man) and gives us Twintelle just because she's that cool and because Sakurai is a man of culture.

Bonus points if it's someone that absolutely no one thinks would get in first. Is it too much to ask for Dr. Coyle to go against the grain?

One was a playable fighter and one was a pokeball summon. They had to have spirits in the base game anyway you slice it.

Anyway that was only brought up as an example of post launch spirits added to the game due to the release of another game. I don't think referencing Pikachu and Eevee's spirits already being the game means anything for where Sylux is at.

In any case, his situation is really weird. We won't know what his ultimate fate is until next year at best.

 

[Robdelia]

I think more than ever that DLC wasn't chosen to "shill", but to strengthen 3rd party relationships.
Microsoft is doing a lot with the Switch right now, Square and SEGA were the first 2 companies to announce games for the Switch.
It's why I think the next 2 characters are going to be SNK and Bethesda.

Going by that logic, you'd think they would make Rayman DLC or something. Or any Ubisoft rep for that matter considering how hard they've been going with third-party support. Moreso than Microsoft I'd say.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

I wonder... while Sakurai is somebody who wouldn't care about sales or promotion as much as uniqueness, creativity, and other possible factors, I do think that Nintendo would want that. So I don't doubt they would've put a "shill" pick on the list, just Sakurai would be unlikely to go for it if he couldn't think of a better reason. Hey, speaking of, who are characters you think made the list but were turned down, or just passed over?

I know the Nightmare icon in my signature makes me look biased, but Heihachi I think would be that character that could have been suggested by Nintendo but turned down by Sakurai.

He’s clearly an iconic enough character, but gameplay wise I really don’t think he has what it takes to be an interesting fighter when transitioned to a platform fighter and still be faithful to his original series.

Sakurai has said in interviews that getting Heihachi’s “movement” down world be difficult, and that just because a character is able to fight, it doesn’t mean that they’ll be enjoyable or unique from the rest of the roster in smash.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Going by that logic, you'd think they would make Rayman DLC or something. Or any Ubisoft rep for that matter considering how hard they've been going with third-party support. Moreso than Microsoft I'd say.

Yeah, it almost feels like Ubi aren't actually doing anything to push Rayman into Smash and wait for it to happen automatically, at this stage.

I know the Nightmare icon in my signature makes me look biased, but Heihachi I think would be that character that could have been suggested by Nintendo but turned down by Sakurai.

He’s clearly an iconic enough character, but gameplay wise I really don’t think he has what it takes to be an interesting fighter when transitioned to a platform fighter and still be faithful to his original series.

Sakurai has said in interviews that getting Heihachi’s “movement” down world be difficult, and that just because a character is able to fight, it doesn’t mean that they’ll be enjoyable or unique from the rest of the roster in smash.

Another thing that got in Heihachi's way is that his latest VA died sometime shortly after recording voice bites for Incineroar in Smash, and since in Japanese culture they respect recently-deceased VAs by not casting replacements for doing the characters they did until much later, that decreased his chances even more.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Given Ubisoft's and Nintendo's relationship. I'll be kinda surprised if Rayman ain't among the final two.

 

[Untouch]

Going by that logic, you'd think they would make Rayman DLC or something. Or any Ubisoft rep for that matter considering how hard they've been going with third-party support. Moreso than Microsoft I'd say.

I think if Doomguy isn't in, then it'll be Ezio.

 

[StrawHatX]

Given Ubisoft's and Nintendo's relationship. I'll be kinda surprised if Rayman ain't among the final two.

Yeah, I’m still a little shocked we don’t have any Ubisoft rep. Bomberman would have been awesome as a fighter.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Yeah, I’m still a little shocked we don’t have any Ubisoft rep. Bomberman would have been awesome as a fighter.

Bomberman is Konami not Ubisoft.

 

[StrawHatX]

Bomberman is Konami not Ubisoft.

Yeah I don’t know how I messed that up. Either way I’m surprised we don’t have any Ubisoft rep.

 

[KingBroly]

I think if Doomguy isn't in, then it'll be Ezio.

"It's a Me! Mario!" I'd like that to be in the stage, because it'd be funny.

Also, it'd be Rayman if we got any Ubisoft rep