Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[StrangeKitten]

There's only one rule. Video game characters only. Said from the man himself. Everything else is on the table.

I'd say there's a second rule: Character must be modestly dressed enough such that they don't need much censorship to be added. Were it not for Mai, I would think they could just add undersirt and tights or something to risqué characters, but they didn't even do that for a background character. I think this deconfirms, say, Morrigan from Darkstalkers, but 2B is still possible (though I am aware that her creator doesn't want her censored; it would depend on if he would make an exception for Smash).

 

[osby]

I'd say there's a second rule: Character must be modestly dressed enough such that they don't need much censorship to be added. Were it not for Mai, I would think they could just add undersirt and tights or something to risqué characters, but they didn't even do that for a background character. I think this deconfirms, say, Morrigan from Darkstalkers, but 2B is still possible (though I am aware that her creator doesn't want her censored; it would depend on if he would make an exception for Smash).

They did just that for Corrin and Bayonetta.

I think the reason Mai wasn't censored was simply that she was just a background character and wasn't worth redesigning just for that. Characters like Roy and Wolf got pretty much brand new designs for Smash so we have precedent for development team altering designs much more to make them fit into Smash better.

It's definitely something to keep in mind but I wouldn't go as far as to say that it's a rule.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Spring Man breaks three fan rules at most: the ones about Mii costumes, Spirits and Assist Trophies.

People are going "THIS BREAKS EVERY FAN RULE EVER!" at every other reveal now, it's getting a bit ridiculous. There are no set rules for Sakurai to break, it's mostly just fans trying to find guidelines for speculation from what we know along the way.

Maybe you wouldn’t have heard it if there weren’t also people going “THESE FAN ASSUMPTIONS ARE 100% CORRECT AND THEY CAN NEVER CHANGE OR BE WRONG BECAUSE I SAID SO AND IF YOU TRY TO ARGUE OTHERWISE I’LL JUST MOVE THE GOALPOST!” which is a thing that happens often.

However, what’s more important than the idea that Spring Man getting in automatically meaning Waluigi and Isaac getting is the perception that ATs are no longer pointless to continue rooting for as DLC, which will change Smash support as we see. Regardless of whether we will even get another AT promotion in this hypothetical scenario or not, support for characters like Skull Kid, Ashley, Bomberman and many others will have more potential to grow again without pessimism. And that is something beautiful.

And on a different topic, I’m going to say the real surprise come June will be Spring Man with an echo fighter bonus character alongside him. This character would be Ribbon Girl, which would also continue the trend of Ultimate newcomer echo fighters being the more good-looking counterpart!

 

[Dinoman96]

I'd definitely prefer Spring Man as the ARMS rep, considering he's the lead character/mascot...

But honestly I can't help but feel they're gonna go with Min Min. I guess the main thing is just the fact that, if it really was just Spring Man, why wouldn't they just say it was him and get it out of the way? Instead of playing up this "who's it gonna be...?" angle.

It feels like to me that they're building up to a non-traditional/"left field" representative for ARMS, a character that isn't exactly the poster boy as you'd expect it to be. Out of the other ARMS characters, Min Min is the one that sticks out to me because she's by far the most popular character in the game, by both the fans and even the developers themselves. She even won that one tournament back in the summer of 2019, which, interestingly enough, occured most likely around the time Nintendo began planning for a second round of Smash DLC.

If they're not gonna go with the poster character for once, then the only thing that makes sense is the clear fan favorite.

The only other thing I can kind of see is if they're building up to some kind of Hero-esque setup with multiple characters in one slot, but...yeah, I don't really see how that could work well.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

The problem I see with an Bowser Jr./Hero route is each of the ARMS characters have their own abilities and playstyles whereas Bowser Jr. with the koopalings and Hero with the other three pretty don't.

So I'm thinking its gonna be one of the following three.

1. Minmin
2. Spring Man + Ribbon Girl as an echo
3. Helix (As an WTF character)

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

In Cthulhu Mythos, Azathoth is the most powerful being in existence, having the tile of “The Blind idiot god” due to limitless power but is completely mindless. Azathoth is kept in check by a horde of elder god musicians who keep Azathoth in its slumber with their lullaby, else Azathoth would awake and destroy all of existence with his primordial chaos.

likewise, in Earthbound Giygas is an incomprehensible alien entity of malice and limitless power, but is basically mindless in his state. Pokey calls Giygas “an all-mighty idiot” that threatens to destroy all of existence. Giygas is weakened and defeated by the use of song, a lullaby to be exact.

Giygas’ ultimate demise is done by praying, almost like a rejection of the Cthulu fears of mind-boggling insignificance. The good Ness and his friend did on their journey mattered even in the face of total annihilation, the prayer from the people they met are what ultimately defeat a Cthulhu-like entity, the prayer nullify the feeling of hopelessness. So yes, the friends he made along the way were his true power.

TL;DR Local boy destroys elderitch entity with a friendship spirit bomb.

This makes me love the Earthbound series even more.

I don't think the Dojo has any merit in this regard, simply due to the fact that Brawl did not have or plan a DLC cycle. Having DLC means that more than one planning stage can occur, thus alllowing changes in design philosophies and content selection.

There actually has been an official statement from Sakurai himself that implies that Assist Trophies wouldn't be playable (and it was about Waluigi no less). It was on Miiverse though so good luck finding it. Still, I think Spring Man is possible since...Well it's the character they crafted to be the best representative of the series. Why would you not add him?

To claim the Mii Fighters look generic and boring to watch is an opinion. I think Mii Brawler and Gunner have a variety of neat flair in their movement and that their attacks are neat too. As someone that has primarily only played as these three "boring" characters for 6 years, I hardly find them boring to play as or watch. If you choose to only use Guest Miis or something, you "get what you payed for" in that respect. Making a Mii with a costume combination does wonders to make the character feel like they've come to life. So if you didn't care about them in the first place, you're obviously not going to start for no reason. The big thing they did in this game for the Miis to make them appealing was abandoning the more usual "Mii" appearance and adopting more stylized designs for their default appearance.
Perhaps Swordfighter is the only real victim of that boring accusation, but even he has some neat stuff that makes him cool in some respects.

I primarily use the character art designs you get from World of Light, mostly because I can never remember what Mii does what, and I couldn't decide on what my most used Mii should look like, so I guess that might be part of the problem. I did give them a voice though so it makes them feel like an actual character, except for their blacked out portraits. They really should have just used their character models for the Vs. screen.

I do actually like playing as Mii Swordfighter, and sometimes Mii Brawler, but they don't really do much for me as characters, and I find the character creator part kind of lacking. I think what would help me most with them is the ability to see what each Mii's special move is on the character select screen and/or battle HUD, the ability to pick and choose different taunts, and the ability to customize your character's victory fanfare (there's 20+ in the game, lemme pick one!).

>The world of Smash doesn't have any people in it

It's got all the fighters + the Fighting Mii Team if you count them.

 

[Farbeitfromme]

But honestly I can't help but feel they're gonna go with Min Min. I guess the main thing is just the fact that, if it really was just Spring Man, why wouldn't they just say it was him and get it out of the way? Instead of playing up this "who's it gonna be...?" angle.

It feels like to me that they're building up to a non-traditional/"left field" representative for ARMS, a character that isn't exactly the poster boy as you'd expect it to be. Out of the other ARMS characters, Min Min is the one that sticks out to me because she's by far the most popular character in the game, by both the fans and even the developers themselves. She even won that one tournament back in the summer of 2019, which, interestingly enough, occured most likely around the time Nintendo began planning for a second round of Smash DLC.

I tend to agree. I have a hard time reconciling a choice of Spring Man with what they're doing, and the AT on top of that. Because of that, Min Min seems most likely in my book. The multi-character solution also is a possibility, but I don't know how I feel about that considering what people have been saying about how the characters are unique. I haven't played ARMS, but I'm all for representing characters based on how they play in their home games, and a compilation of characters makes that hard.

That said, if they do go with multiple characters, I'm sure many fans will be happy with that too. I'm really looking forward to seeing what they end up doing.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

People sleeping on Helix it seems as an curveball could be thrown being another WTF character asand

 

[SKX31]

Hey everyone! I appreciate all of the replies that I got from my last post. Since I got so many people to participate last time I figured I would do this again with a different selection of characters.

Pick 3 characters to add to Smash.
I decided to make this selection of characters from Japanese companies. I plan on posting a selection of western guest characters for you to decide upon tomorrow.

If I get enough responses I may tally the 4 most mentioned characters from each category and put them into their own category.

Dante, Heihachi, 2B.

As for the ARMS conversation - I'd prefer someone not represented in Smash already like Dr. Coyle. Not really because of any fanrules or anything like that, but I have my reasons:

• First, I want the "Protagonist / Fan Favorite first per series" rule of thumb broken. If that happens, it makes speculating about future series way more interesting (if just by introducing that slight possibility). I have nothing against Spring Man - or other fan favorites like Min Min or Twintelle - that said.
• Second, I'm just favoring the Bowser-Samus Arms-wearing villainess (seriously her ARMS looks like she's wearing Samus' shoulder pads with Bowser's spikes.). I'm not saying she's the most likely (I've got not much to add there honestly), just who I'd personally like to see the most.

That said, wouldn't mind the other characters at all though.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

The problem I see with an Bowser Jr./Hero route is each of the ARMS characters have their own abilities and playstyles whereas Bowser Jr. with the koopalings and Hero with the other three pretty don't.

They kind of do actually. All the Koopalings have their own unique battles and attributes in each of their fights whether it's SMB3, SMW, or any of the NSMB games. None of them used individual Jr. clown cars prior to Smash, nor did they ever transform into Shadow Mario. Throughout their games, Lemmy had a ball, Wendy had rings and completely underwater battles, Iggy had a Chain Chomp, Roy and Morton were heavy hitters that used more brute force like Bullet Bill launchers and clubs and could stun through their stomps, Ludwig had a Yoshi flutter and more aerial battles, and Larry used vertical platforms.

As for the Hero, I think this post already put it best.

I dove further into looking at this, and here are the attacks that the respective heroes cannot learn:

Erdrick

• Frizzle/Kafrizz
• Zapple
• Woosh/Swoosh/Kaswoosh
• Oomph
• Bounce
• Flame Slash
• Kacrackle Slash
• Kamikazee
• Psyche Up
• Accelerattle
• Bang
• Kaboom
• Hatchet Man
• Whack
• Thwack
• Metal Slash
• Hocus Pocus
• Magic Burst

Solo

• Frizzle/Kafrizz
• Zapple
• Woosh/Swoosh/Kaswoosh
• Oomph
• Snooze
• Bounce
• Flame Slash
• Kacrackle Slash
• Kamikazee
• Sizzle
• Psyche Up
• Heal
• Accelerattle
• Bang
• Kaboom
• Hatchet Man
• Whack
• Thwack
• Metal Slash
• Magic Burst

Eight

• Frizz/Frizzle/Kafrizz
• Zapple
• Woosh/Swoosh/Kaswoosh
• Snooze
• Bounce
• Kacrackle Slash
• Kaclang
• Psyche Up
• Bang
• Kaboom
• Hatchet Man
• Whack
• Thwack
• Hocus Pocus
• Magic Burst

Luminary

• Woosh/Swoosh/Kaswoosh
• Bounce
• Kacrackle Slash
• Kamikazee
• Psyche Up
• Accelerattle
• Kaboom
• Hatchet Man
• Whack
• Thwack
• Hocus Pocus
• Magic Burst

It's a lot, isn't it?

With the attacks on all four lists, none of the Heroes learn them, they're learned by other party members and NPCs. So Hero is not just a composite character across the protagonists, but across the entire series.


When people are talking about a composite character, I think the insinuation is more that the character would draw from all or most of the characters within rather than eliminate the unique aspects of each. I mean I've seen several people suggest the character would have some version of the Min Min kick, for example.

That's why people are raising comparisons with the Earthbound and Castlevania characters, or the Links, or the Heroes. All those characters are amalgams that join material from multiple characters, not eliminate the defining facets of each. Obviously you can't include every aspect of every character, but whoever is saying the character would be sanded down to have no discernibly unique elements at all is voicing a different rhetoric.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

• First, I want the "Protagonist / Fan Favorite first per series" rule of thumb broken. If that happens, it makes speculating about future series way more interesting (if just by introducing that slight possibility). I have nothing against Spring Man - or other fan favorites like Min Min or Twintelle - that said.

Heihachi and Nightmare has the most potential in breaking that rule for sure.

Same with said ARMS rep. Having an feeling they'll do an WTF character (Helix) or go with the fan favorite (Minmin or Twintelle). Who knows maybe they'll do one that was unexpected (Kid Cobra).

 

[CapitaineCrash]

People sleeping on Helix it seems as an curveball could be thrown being another WTF character asand

Even if they wanted a wtf character, why would they go with Helix? He's not as popular as Twintelle or Min min. Also his gimmick would be very hard to put in Smash. First, he can't jump, and the fact that he can be thinner and move his torso would only work like a spot dodge. Decreasing his height would be a fun gimmick, but I don't see that being as useful in Smash that it is in Arms.

 

[Guynamednelson]

None of them used a clown car prior to Smash

Actually, they all rode in a clown car together. Their solo, cheaply-made clown cars are what is a Smash invention.

 

[osby]

People sleeping on Helix it seems as an curveball could be thrown being another WTF character asand

They don't.

"WTF character" is such a stupid term and it ignores how characters people label as such either have historical significance () or widespread recognizability () or ease of implementation in the case of certain clones. And I've already pointed out that PP isn't even among the first five Mario characters we got. There's no evidence that supports the idea of Nintendo choosing characters on a "lol so random" basis. Again, Helix has no reason to get in over more popular and more marketable characters aside from that it's technically possible which is valid for all ARMS characters.

 

[Deleted member]

The problem I see with an Bowser Jr./Hero route is each of the ARMS characters have their own abilities and playstyles whereas Bowser Jr. with the koopalings and Hero with the other three pretty don't.

Except the Heroes do play differently.

• DQ3/DQ4 established the hero character as a balanced tank that can use magic when all they did beforehand was hit monsters with a stick.
• DQ 8 introduces the tension mechanic, In which you invest a number of turns to deal more damage against enemies. Other than the skill tree, this is the mechanic that set DQ 8 apart from previous entries. Boss strategies are so built around tension and weapon combinations to where you can make DQ 8's hero into its own fighter.
• DQ 11 has pep powers. The general idea is that you can use your party members to unleash a super attack, which can be its own moveset. This could give Luminary the ability to call upon his allies for Smash Bros. In some boss battles (especially on hard mode), these skills can save your life. Add all of the sword skills Luminary relies on and he's practically his own character within Dragon Quest heroes.
• This isn't even mentioning the Heroes who aren't in Smash like Dragon Quest 5, who's hero is primarily your healer and tank than an actual fighter. They even learn the woosh spell line, which no hero does outside of class changes.
• Oh yeah, and some heroes can change classes like Dragon Quest 6, 7, and 9.

Just from these gimmicks alone, battles--especially bosses--in Dragon Quest 8 are far different than in Dragon Quest 11 or 3. Just look at this video and this video and tell me the Heroes play the same. They don't. Even when Dragon Quest games all share the same fundamental gameplay, there's usually something that makes each game and its cast a different experience.

You know what this reminds me of? ARMs. The fundamentals of every character in ARMs is to punch with one hand, punch with your other hand, and grab. The only thing separating fighters is their one specific gimmick. Kind of like Dragon Quest heroes.

I don't buy this argument. In a game where Dark Samus is flanderized to just play exactly like Samus, I don't know how ARMS characters being alts ends up being the stretch for people. (No pun intended)

 

[DarthEnderX]

It's got all the fighters + the Fighting Mii Team if you count them.

Even counting all the spirits, there's still only a couple thousand. That's a pretty low population compared to "the world" in Earthbound. Not a lot of material to try and spirit bomb a cosmic horror with.

Heihachi and Nightmare has the most potential in breaking that rule for sure.

That's not really the fanrule though. It's protagonist/mascot first(thanks to Pikachu). And while Heihachi and Nightmare aren't the protags, they ARE basically the mascots of those franchises.

None of them used a clown car prior to Smash

Not entirely accurate.

From NMB2:

 

[Deleted member]

They don't.

"WTF character" is such a stupid term and it ignores how characters people label as such either have historical significance () or widespread recognizability () or ease of implementation in the case of certain clones. And I've already pointed out that PP isn't even among the first five Mario characters we got. There's no evidence that supports the idea of Nintendo choosing characters on a "lol so random" basis. Again, Helix has no reason to get in over more popular and more marketable characters aside from that it's technically possible which is valid for all ARMS characters.

I agree that Helix is not getting in over the mascot or most popular character. If Helix is meant to be the WTF character, it's because he's going against these odds and he's a dumb RNA cell. Hence, "What the ****, Sakurai? Why him?"

That being said, I see where Michael's coming from on this. I think even Sakurai is aware that nobody looks at Game & Watch, Duck Hunt, or even Wii Fit and think to themselves they'd be in Smash. Look at Piranha Plant's reveal and see how even the developers were self aware that this is just shocking.

That being said, most of the time, these characters are mainly chosen for diversity than actually being random. Except maybe ROB, who's probably only in because of Subspace using them as a common mook for one of the antagonists.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Just from these gimmicks alone, battles--especially bosses--in Dragon Quest 8 are far different than in Dragon Quest 11 or 3. Just look at this video and this video and tell me the Heroes play the same. They don't. Even when Dragon Quest games all share the same fundamental gameplay, there's usually something that makes each game and its cast a different experience.

You know what this reminds me of? ARMs. The fundamentals of every character in ARMs is to punch with one hand, punch with your other hand, and grab. The only thing separating fighters is their one specific gimmick. Kind of like Dragon Quest heroes.

I don't buy this argument. In a game where Dark Samus is flanderized to just play exactly like Samus, I don't know how ARMS characters being alts ends up being the stretch for people. (No pun intended)

1. Hero has a bit of everything in order to try and represent all of Dragon Quest. I think this is a great design for a bunch of avatar characters from an RPG series, but it doesn't work for a fighting game character because the whole point of having multiple characters in a fighting game is that they allow you to change up how you play the game. You can't just amalgamate a bunch of playstyles and expect the character to play like any of them. And if they don't play like them, then what's the point?
2. Dark Samus's implementation is bad. Stop treating it like a gold standard. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it should be done.
3. Because no matter how you do it, you're either complicating the most basic character (who's supposed to show off the game in a nutshell), giving him abilities that don't make sense on him due to not sharing motifs with the character the abilities from, and/or, you're removing over half of what makes the characters interesting in the first place.

Other than the really odd characters like Byte & Barq and Helix, the amalgem character is the worst way to represent ARMS.

 

[Cosmic77]

I'm someone who has played as every character in ARMS, and even though Ribbon Girl is the only alt I expect if Spring Man is the character, I think there are a few others who could work. Should that happen, I think a lot of people who were once opposed to it will realize it's not as big of a deal as they thought it was.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

1. Hero has a bit of everything in order to try and represent all of Dragon Quest. I think this is a great design for a bunch of avatar characters from an RPG series, but it doesn't work for a fighting game character because the whole point of having multiple characters in a fighting game is that they allow you to change up how you play the game. You can't just amalgamate a bunch of playstyles and expect the character to play like any of them. And if they don't play like them, then what's the point?
2. Dark Samus's implementation is bad. Stop treating it like a gold standard. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it should be done.
3. Because no matter how you do it, you're either complicating the most basic character (who's supposed to show off the game in a nutshell), giving him abilities that don't make sense on him due to not sharing motifs with the character the abilities from, and/or, you're removing over half of what makes the characters interesting in the first place.

Other than the really odd characters like Byte & Barq and Helix, the amalgem character is the worst way to represent ARMS.

You realize that the Hero point shows off exactly how unique they can be, with those examples already providing more unique differences that most of the ARMS cast, right?

The Dark Samus point was that she's indeed done dirty but that it was deemed OK, meaning that we have precedence of characters who fight completely differently being a mere palette swap/Echo

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

You realize that the Hero point shows off exactly how unique they can be, with those examples already providing more unique differences that most of the ARMS cast, right?

The Dark Samus point was that she's indeed done dirty but that it was deemed OK, meaning that we have precedence of characters who fight completely differently being a mere palette swap/Echo

And again, I'd say that an avatar character from an RPG not using his game specific mechanics in favor of mechanics that help him represent his entire series is ok. It's why I'm also ok with Simon & Richter using each other's moves (though as Echo Fighters, they really should play at least somewhat differently from each other beyond one being negligibly better against Snake and the Links, and the other being negligibly better against Olimar) because it mostly boils down to giving each other mechanics from across the series to make something more all-encompassing. But it is not ok to just mash two fighting game characters together because now you don't get the primary draws of one or either of them.

Again, just because it has been done doesn't mean it should be done again. You're not going to entice me by showing me examples of how it was done poorly.

EDIT: To me the whole Dark Samus argument reads as "yeah it sucks but they should totally do it again anyway".

 

[andree123]

Seems like Bandai Namco is publishing guilty gear strive in Europe and Asia. Looks like a Guilty Gear rep may be more likely to be in the fighters pass 2.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Seems like Bandai Namco is publishing guilty gear strive in Europe and Asia. Looks like a Guilty Gear rep may be more likely to be in the fighters pass 2.

Sol Badguy here we come! While I'm not too crazy in wanting him or is one of my most current wants, I think he'd be an welcoming addition especially how he could play.

This is an character no one would had seen coming. Pretty much theandof Season Pass 1.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Seems like Bandai Namco is publishing guilty gear strive in Europe and Asia. Looks like a Guilty Gear rep may be more likely to be in the fighters pass 2.

Considering the game's not even going to be on the Switch I don't think this really affects his chances for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's DLC.

That being said though Sol looks pretty cool and I wouldn't mind seeing him show up.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

1. Hero has a bit of everything in order to try and represent all of Dragon Quest. I think this is a great design for a bunch of avatar characters from an RPG series, but it doesn't work for a fighting game character because the whole point of having multiple characters in a fighting game is that they allow you to change up how you play the game. You can't just amalgamate a bunch of playstyles and expect the character to play like any of them. And if they don't play like them, then what's the point?
2. Dark Samus's implementation is bad. Stop treating it like a gold standard. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it should be done.
3. Because no matter how you do it, you're either complicating the most basic character (who's supposed to show off the game in a nutshell), giving him abilities that don't make sense on him due to not sharing motifs with the character the abilities from, and/or, you're removing over half of what makes the characters interesting in the first place.

Other than the really odd characters like Byte & Barq and Helix, the amalgem character is the worst way to represent ARMS.

Why did that quote me, that's not even my post.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

EDIT: To me the whole Dark Samus argument reads as "yeah it sucks but they should totally do it again anyway".

It sucks but its still better than not having her in the game at all. Same goes for multiple ARMS characters. I'd say Dark Samus lucked out compared to characters like Dixie Kong and Shadow who couldn't get playable roles at all.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

It sucks but its still better than not having her in the game at all. Same goes for multiple ARMS characters. I'd say Dark Samus lucked out compared to characters like Dixie Kong and Shadow who couldn't get playable roles at all.

The same with

 

[osby]

Seems like Bandai Namco is publishing guilty gear strive in Europe and Asia. Looks like a Guilty Gear rep may be more likely to be in the fighters pass 2.

I'm still waiting for that second Bandai Namco character.

 

[Deleted member]

1. Hero has a bit of everything in order to try and represent all of Dragon Quest. I think this is a great design for a bunch of avatar characters from an RPG series, but it doesn't work for a fighting game character because the whole point of having multiple characters in a fighting game is that they allow you to change up how you play the game. You can't just amalgamate a bunch of playstyles and expect the character to play like any of them. And if they don't play like them, then what's the point?
2. Dark Samus's implementation is bad. Stop treating it like a gold standard. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it should be done.
3. Because no matter how you do it, you're either complicating the most basic character (who's supposed to show off the game in a nutshell), giving him abilities that don't make sense on him due to not sharing motifs with the character the abilities from, and/or, you're removing over half of what makes the characters interesting in the first place.

Other than the really odd characters like Byte & Barq and Helix, the amalgem character is the worst way to represent ARMS.

Post-editting intro: Before you read, I'd like to clarify that my argument was to discuss the possibility of an amalgam character, and this post I typed is focusing more on how why none of this rant I'm responding to really matters within that context.

1. Mate if you wanna play ARMS, go play ARMS. None of the fighters are going to play like they do in ARMS solely because we're taking a 3D fighting game with like five attacks and putting them in Smash Bros that has three neutral attacks, four special moves, four tilt attacks, three taunts, three smash attacks, four throws, and a final smash. Unless you are a 2d platformer or 2d fighting game character, you are not in any circumstance gonna be a faithful recreation of your character. Name a single character outside of those two genres who play like they do in their games. Also for reference before you answer that rhetorical challenge, even Mario doesn't play like anything he does in his own games.
2. You missed the context with this. The guy I was responding to using flanderization as a point against the possibility of an amalgam scenario. I don't care if you don't like Dark Samus, because that was not my point. The point is that you cannot discount the possibility when the possibility has already happened with other characters.
3. You just described literally every ****ing Smash Bros character with this one sentence.
   1. "you're either complicating the most basic character (who's supposed to show off the game in a nutshell"
      1. (taking the most basic characters and complicating their kit to actually fit into Smash's controls
   2. " giving him abilities that don't make sense on him due to not sharing motifs with the character the abilities from"
      1. (doesn't fight in their games)
      2. (Doesn't learn some of their moves and is borrowing from other characters in their series)
      3. (fighting on land instead of a vehicle)
      4. (literally made **** up specifically for Smash)
   3. "you're removing over half of what makes the characters interesting in the first place."
      1. (weakened or partially censored)
      2. (reduced to clone status)
      3. (NPCs or side characters remembered for their role than actually being playable, in which some were never playable)

Nitpick that list all you want. Don't ignore how literally every character has to have liberties taken to fit into Smash, even the platformers and fighting game characters. Otherwise, it wouldn't be Smash Bros.


I'm not even arguing that the composite moveset is even likely; it's probably not even close to happening. I'm saying it's not impossible because that post was for a guy who was saying it wasn't happening with contradictory logic and no proof. Your argument does not disprove the possibility. Your argument is just a rant. If you wanna talk over how much you don't like it, do it with me when I actually state my opinion on it.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

View attachment 268722
This is Waluigi's page in Smash Dojo, back in Brawl. Notice how it says he won't be appearing as a playable character.
Someone in youtube brought up this and said Sakurai said ATs deconfirming is an official rule. What do you think?
Also, they said there's a Miiverse post saying ATs deconfirm, so it applies to dlc. Can someone clarify?

That was 12 years ago. Half the people here were like, 4, when it came out. Things change. Does it mean it has? Who knows

 

[Cutie Gwen]

1. "you're removing over half of what makes the characters interesting in the first place."
   1. (weakened or partially censored).

Ehhhh I feel this doesn't quite describe situations well, Cloud's fine though the best **** about him isn't in Smash due to Smash being unable to give most characters more than 5 sentences, which hardly reflects Cloud's personality, and for Shulk, he's not recognizable at all in terms of fighting style and his personality was wrong, instead of being the ever so curious yet socially awkward nerd, he's haha Really Feeling It funny man. Shulk's gimmick barely fits which is odd because a character from a game who's gameplay consists of "keep attacking, do well enough and you get to use super special ****" is actually incredible but nooooo instead the only **** his Monado Arts got right was Speed considering the best way to translate that, Monado Armour's effects despite naming it Shield and Monado Enchant's effects despite naming it Buster when Buster is a BIG ASS BLADE OF LIGHT SENT CRASHING DOWN HOW THE HELL DOES SHULK NOT HAVE MONADO BUSTER AT ALL IT'S NOT EVEN IN HIS FINAL SMASH

 

[Deleted member]

Ehhhh I feel this doesn't quite describe situations well, Cloud's fine though the best **** about him isn't in Smash due to Smash being unable to give most characters more than 5 sentences, which hardly reflects Cloud's personality, and for Shulk, he's not recognizable at all in terms of fighting style and his personality was wrong, instead of being the ever so curious yet socially awkward nerd, he's haha Really Feeling It funny man. Shulk's gimmick barely fits which is odd because a character from a game who's gameplay consists of "keep attacking, do well enough and you get to use super special ****" is actually incredible but nooooo instead the only **** his Monado Arts got right was Speed considering the best way to translate that, Monado Armour's effects despite naming it Shield and Monado Enchant's effects despite naming it Buster when Buster is a BIG ASS BLADE OF LIGHT SENT CRASHING DOWN HOW THE HELL DOES SHULK NOT HAVE MONADO BUSTER AT ALL IT'S NOT EVEN IN HIS FINAL SMASH

Now that I'm motivated, part of me kind of wants to do a highly-detailed list over every change and nitpick you can say for every Smash character. It sounds like a fun challenge.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Why did that quote me, that's not even my post.

I don't know, I didn't try to quote you or anything. :/

It sucks but its still better than not having her in the game at all. Same goes for multiple ARMS characters. I'd say Dark Samus lucked out compared to characters like Dixie Kong and Shadow who couldn't get playable roles at all.

The same with

I guess having these characters is cool and all, but I'd rather that they be actually good representations of said characters. I want Daisy and Dark Samus to get rid of abilities they don't have and replace them with ones that they do have. I want Richter to at least have some different properties from Simon. I'd want Shadow to trade speed for power so that he'd be a genuine rushdown character as opposed to the hit and run zoner that Sonic is. I'd also like to see him have some form of Chaos Control be it something like Witch Time or a teleport recovery. I'd rather see the ARMS cast use their signiture abilities and no-one else's.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I don't know, I didn't try to quote you or anything. :/



I guess having these characters is cool and all, but I'd rather that they be actually good representations of said characters. I want Daisy and Dark Samus to get rid of abilities they don't have and replace them with ones that they do have. I want Richter to at least have some different properties from Simon. I'd want Shadow to trade speed for power so that he'd be a genuine rushdown character as opposed to the hit and run zoner that Sonic is. I'd also like to see him have some form of Chaos Control be it something like Witch Time or a teleport recovery. I'd rather see the ARMS cast use their signiture abilities and no-one else's.

I also would rather they be good representations of said characters. But having slightly inaccurate representation is still 100x better than not having them playable at all.

 

[HansShotFirst20]

1. Hero has a bit of everything in order to try and represent all of Dragon Quest. I think this is a great design for a bunch of avatar characters from an RPG series, but it doesn't work for a fighting game character because the whole point of having multiple characters in a fighting game is that they allow you to change up how you play the game. You can't just amalgamate a bunch of playstyles and expect the character to play like any of them. And if they don't play like them, then what's the point?
2. Dark Samus's implementation is bad. Stop treating it like a gold standard. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it should be done.
3. Because no matter how you do it, you're either complicating the most basic character (who's supposed to show off the game in a nutshell), giving him abilities that don't make sense on him due to not sharing motifs with the character the abilities from, and/or, you're removing over half of what makes the characters interesting in the first place.

Other than the really odd characters like Byte & Barq and Helix, the amalgem character is the worst way to represent ARMS.

My view is:

1) ARMS is fundamentally different from Smash, so you're not going to get 1:1 accuracy anyway
2) The difference in each to the ARMS characters is down to a gimmick -- their movesets are all fundamentally the same, barring the exception of each character's gimmick.
3) Given that the movesets from ARMS boil down to left punch, right punch, grab, and the gimmick, you can get a hell of a lot more mileage out of an ARMS character by letting them use multiple characters' gimmicks than by stretching (pun intended) the 3 moves that all the characters share into a full smash moveset. I don't think that all the Max Brass fans would get pissy if the ARMS amalgam's nair was a Min Min kick, for example.

Besides -- an ARMS character is going to use Ribbon Girl's multi jump gimmick anyway.

4) An amalgam lets the fans of more characters get what they want. Ninjara fans are gonna feel dejected if Min Min is the rep, etc.

and 5) an ARMS amalgam minimizes the chance I get stuck with toothpastehead

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Post-editting intro: Before you read, I'd like to clarify that my argument was to discuss the possibility of an amalgam character, and this post I typed is focusing more on how why none of this rant I'm responding to really matters within that context.

1. Mate if you wanna play ARMS, go play ARMS. None of the fighters are going to play like they do in ARMS solely because we're taking a 3D fighting game with like five attacks and putting them in Smash Bros that has three neutral attacks, four special moves, four tilt attacks, three taunts, three smash attacks, and a final smash. Unless you are a 2d platformer or 2d fighting game character, you are not in any circumstance gonna be a faithful recreation of your character. Name a single character outside of those two genres who play like they do in their games. Also for reference before you answer that rhetorical challenge, even Mario doesn't play like anything he does in his own games.
2. You missed the context with this. The guy I was responding to using flanderization as a point against the possibility of an amalgam scenario. I don't care if you don't like Dark Samus, because that was not my point. The point is that you cannot discount the possibility when the possibility has already happened with other characters.
3. You just described literally every ****ing Smash Bros character with this one sentence.
   1. "you're either complicating the most basic character (who's supposed to show off the game in a nutshell"
      1. (taking the most basic characters and complicating their kit to actually fit into Smash's controls
   2. " giving him abilities that don't make sense on him due to not sharing motifs with the character the abilities from"
      1. (the ability to actually fight)
      2. (Doesn't learn some of their moves and is borrowing from other characters in their series)
      3. (fighting on land instead of a vehicle)
      4. (literally made **** up specifically for Smash)
   3. "you're removing over half of what makes the characters interesting in the first place."
      1. (weakened or partially censored)
      2. (reduced to clone status)
      3. (NPCs or side characters remembered for their role than actually being playable, in which some were never playable)

Nitpick that list all you want. Don't ignore how literally every character has to have liberties taken to fit into Smash, even the platformers and fighting game characters. Otherwise, it wouldn't be Smash Bros.


I'm not even arguing that the composite moveset is even likely; it's probably not even close to happening. I'm saying it's not impossible because that post was for a guy who was saying it wasn't happening with contradictory logic and no proof. Your argument does not disprove the possibility. Your argument is just a rant. If you wanna talk over how much you don't like it, do it with me when I actually state my opinion on it.

I disagree with every single point you made...

...except #2. I'm sorry for jumping on you like that.

 

[Deleted member]

I disagree with every single point you made...

except #2. I'm sorry for jumping on you like that.

I mean my challenge is still open if you disagree with my other points, since we got the dialogue going.

"Name a single character outside of [2d platformers and 2d fighters] who play like they do in their games"

Apology accepted, btw

 

[DarthEnderX]

I'm all for Sol.

Since Kunio is practically deconfirmed for Ultimate already, if Sol gets in NOW, they won't be competing with each other in Smash 6.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm all for Sol.

Since Kunio is practically deconfirmed for Ultimate already, if Sol gets in NOW, they won't be competing with each other in Smash 6.

We've been over this, Sol and Kunio's legacies are too different to be competition, meaning one wouldn't beat the other, that's Sol and Ragna


Also I've played FF9 for about 5 hours and **** everyone who rallied behind Black Mage and not Vivi, the definitive Black Mage of the franchise

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Ehhhh I feel this doesn't quite describe situations well, Cloud's fine though the best **** about him isn't in Smash due to Smash being unable to give most characters more than 5 sentences, which hardly reflects Cloud's personality, and for Shulk, he's not recognizable at all in terms of fighting style and his personality was wrong, instead of being the ever so curious yet socially awkward nerd, he's haha Really Feeling It funny man. Shulk's gimmick barely fits which is odd because a character from a game who's gameplay consists of "keep attacking, do well enough and you get to use super special ****" is actually incredible but nooooo instead the only **** his Monado Arts got right was Speed considering the best way to translate that, Monado Armour's effects despite naming it Shield and Monado Enchant's effects despite naming it Buster when Buster is a BIG ASS BLADE OF LIGHT SENT CRASHING DOWN HOW THE HELL DOES SHULK NOT HAVE MONADO BUSTER AT ALL IT'S NOT EVEN IN HIS FINAL SMASH

I actually like the Shulk relying on statuses that buff him significantly. Xenoblade does have a lot of abilities that can buff you or do damage over time to the opponent, so it reflects the combat system really well. Just not really like Shulk's playstyle, but closer to Riki's.