Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

1. " giving him abilities that don't make sense on him due to not sharing motifs with the character the abilities from"
   1. (the ability to actually fight)

They never lacked an ability to fight whatsoever. There's a difference between two of those leaning towards a more peaceful design, as well as Isabelle having somewhat of a pacifist-like view, and "an inability to fight". Likewise, in what actual characterization or official book that says Wii Fit Trainer cannot actually fight?

These are a stretch and making up rules. They're unexpected to think they'd fight, but they don't lack the ability to fight. The actual inability to fight means literally being impossible to throw a punch, or use anything in any possible way that could damage(never the case in the Animal Crossing games, as it's been hard shown you can attack another animal Villager in-game with a Net. It's nothing special, but that's "not an ability to fight" either. Isabelle's slightly more unique, but she does use her Hammer from Amiibo Festival, which while a mini-game, is still a weapon overall).

Just about anyone can actually fight. Especially among game characters. "Would it make sense" is obviously a different question entirely and rather subjective. In addition to that, "Would the character legitimately want to?" is its own thing. Some are actually pacifists. Some aren't. Some don't even have an actual personality for it to matter(which fits both Villager and Wii Fit Trainer as is, who have zero personality that relates to their opinions on fighting. Isabelle has shied away from it at best, even 4 interpreting her that way as an AT. However, to go back to Amiibo Festival, she treats things as a "game" there, despite fighting in some mini-games. It's not exactly hard to reimagine her, thanks to having Villager to create a functional moveset from, while keeping her personality). Some do, and even then, a lot of times personalities are ignored cause hey, cool character. Or, you know, important gaming character being in, ignoring any personality traits that make them a somewhat odd addition. And so on. Besides, as we know, Sakurai clearly does not keep personalities 100% intact, whether or not they're even odder(funny how Isabelle is kept way better than Shulk, despite her being far more pacifistic in comparison. But hey, whatever works to make 'em fun, I guess?).

 

[Deleted member]

I'm still waiting for that second Bandai Namco character.

Right!? How bizarre is it that the two most likely companies, Capcom and Namco, didn't get unique newcomers in Wave 1. Reminds me of that one pre-Ultimate meme

 

[SNEKeater]

Seems like Bandai Namco is publishing guilty gear strive in Europe and Asia. Looks like a Guilty Gear rep may be more likely to be in the fighters pass 2.

That doesn't mean anything and I'd love to be wrong in this case. It's just Namco publishing GG Strive, which I guess it's good news for the game, it could mean the game will receive EFIGS translation and not only english.

We've been over this, Sol and Kunio's legacies are too different to be competition, meaning one wouldn't beat the other, that's Sol and Ragna


Also I've played FF9 for about 5 hours and **** everyone who rallied behind Black Mage and not Vivi, the definitive Black Mage of the franchise

Enjoy FFIX, Vivi's ****ing great and I'd pay anything to have the chance of playing IX for the first time again. Such a beautiful game.

 

[DarthEnderX]

We've been over this, Sol and Kunio's legacies are too different to be competition, meaning one wouldn't beat the other, that's Sol and Ragna

That doesn't matter. It's about them sharing the same company. ArcSys isn't going to get two characters added to Smash in the same game. So if one gets added now. That frees them up to get another one in Smash 6.

 

[HansShotFirst20]

That doesn't matter. It's about them sharing the same company. ArcSys isn't going to get two characters added to Smash in the same game. So if one gets added now. That frees them up to get another one in Smash 6.

You say this now, but when Sol, Ragna, Kunio, Misako/Kyoko, and the Lee brothers get added as the rest of FPv2, I'll be the one laughing

 

[Deleted member]

They never lacked an ability to fight whatsoever. There's a difference between two of those leaning towards a more peaceful design, as well as Isabelle having somewhat of a pacifist-like view, and "an inability to fight". Likewise, in what actual characterization or official book that says Wii Fit Trainer cannot actually fight?

These are a stretch and making up rules. They're unexpected to think they'd fight, but they don't lack the ability to fight. The actual inability to fight means literally being impossible to throw a punch, or use anything in any possible way that could damage(never the case in the Animal Crossing games, as it's been hard shown you can attack another animal Villager in-game with a Net. It's nothing special, but that's "not an ability to fight" either. Isabelle's slightly more unique, but she does use her Hammer from Amiibo Festival, which while a mini-game, is still a weapon overall).

Just about anyone can actually fight. Especially among game characters. "Would it make sense" is obviously a different question entirely and rather subjective. In addition to that, "Would the character legitimately want to?" is its own thing. Some are actually pacifists. Some aren't. Some don't even have an actual personality for it to matter(which fits both Villager and Wii Fit Trainer as is, who have zero personality that relates to their opinions on fighting. Isabelle has shied away from it at best, even 4 interpreting her that way as an AT. However, to go back to Amiibo Festival, she treats things as a "game" there, despite fighting in some mini-games. It's not exactly hard to reimagine her, thanks to having Villager to create a functional moveset from, while keeping her personality). Some do, and even then, a lot of times personalities are ignored cause hey, cool character. Or, you know, important gaming character being in, ignoring any personality traits that make them a somewhat odd addition. And so on. Besides, as we know, Sakurai clearly does not keep personalities 100% intact, whether or not they're even odder(funny how Isabelle is kept way better than Shulk, despite her being far more pacifistic in comparison. But hey, whatever works to make 'em fun, I guess?).

Look if you want, I'll change it to "doesn't fight in their games." Obviously I'm not saying Villager or Isabelle are literally incapable of throwing a punch if someone starts a fight with them in the streets, but Animal Crossing never gives me a reason to believe they could. That's my whole point on "creative liberties." An Animal Crossing character throwing fists and actually fighting someone is inherently out of place. Not because of character, but because of the very genre and gameplay of Animal Crossing main series--main games, not the Amiibo Festival spinoff most people just wanted to ignore.

For the record, this isn't at the expense of Animal Crossing. Villager is fun as **** and Isabelle is adorable, but it is a creative liberty for gameplay. When the entire argument is centered around how characters operate in their main games and creative liberties, that's just what gets brought up.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That doesn't matter. It's about them sharing the same company. ArcSys isn't going to get two characters added to Smash in the same game. So if one gets added now. That frees up a space for them to get another one in Smash 6.

I don't agree as we got 3 JRPG characters in the last pass and Sol and Kunio are too different to be redundant but I get your point

That doesn't mean anything and I'd love to be wrong in this case. It's just Namco publishing GG Strive, which I guess it's good news for the game, it could mean the game will receive EFIGS translation and not only english.



Enjoy FFIX, Vivi's ****ing great and I'd pay anything to have the chance of playing IX for the first time again. Such a beautiful game.

I prefer 7 by quite a bit so far but I love the core dynamic of the first 4 party members and I need to see more of Thong Boy cause from what I heard all these years ago he's ****in great

 

[Turtlar]

Hey everyone! I appreciate all of the replies that I got from my last post. Since I got so many people to participate last time I figured I would do this again with a different selection of characters.

Pick 3 characters to add to Smash.
I decided to make this selection of characters from Japanese companies. I plan on posting a selection of western guest characters for you to decide upon tomorrow.

If I get enough responses I may tally the 4 most mentioned characters from each category and put them into their own category.

Geno
Bomberman
Ryu Hayabusa

Geno has been one of my most wanted since Brawl, and the other two are NES icons, plus Bomberman especially has a lengthy history of games with Nintendo.

 

[MBRedboy31]

They never lacked an ability to fight whatsoever. There's a difference between two of those leaning towards a more peaceful design, as well as Isabelle having somewhat of a pacifist-like view, and "an inability to fight". Likewise, in what actual characterization or official book that says Wii Fit Trainer cannot actually fight?

These are a stretch and making up rules. They're unexpected to think they'd fight, but they don't lack the ability to fight. The actual inability to fight means literally being impossible to throw a punch, or use anything in any possible way that could damage(never the case in the Animal Crossing games, as it's been hard shown you can attack another animal Villager in-game with a Net. It's nothing special, but that's "not an ability to fight" either. Isabelle's slightly more unique, but she does use her Hammer from Amiibo Festival, which while a mini-game, is still a weapon overall).

Just about anyone can actually fight. Especially among game characters. "Would it make sense" is obviously a different question entirely and rather subjective. In addition to that, "Would the character legitimately want to?" is its own thing. Some are actually pacifists. Some aren't. Some don't even have an actual personality for it to matter(which fits both Villager and Wii Fit Trainer as is, who have zero personality that relates to their opinions on fighting. Isabelle has shied away from it at best, even 4 interpreting her that way as an AT. However, to go back to Amiibo Festival, she treats things as a "game" there, despite fighting in some mini-games. It's not exactly hard to reimagine her, thanks to having Villager to create a functional moveset from, while keeping her personality). Some do, and even then, a lot of times personalities are ignored cause hey, cool character. Or, you know, important gaming character being in, ignoring any personality traits that make them a somewhat odd addition. And so on. Besides, as we know, Sakurai clearly does not keep personalities 100% intact, whether or not they're even odder(funny how Isabelle is kept way better than Shulk, despite her being far more pacifistic in comparison. But hey, whatever works to make 'em fun, I guess?).

I would argue that can’t canonically fight, if “canon” for him is the IRL toy. Like, he literally can’t do anything beyond the recalibration procedure thing without there being light flashes from a CRT to direct him.

If he were autonomous, the most he could do is try to pinch you if you are that close to him for some reason (or maybe rev up a gyro and hope you just walk into it since he can’t throw it at you,) and he can’t do anything about anyone simply walking behind him and pressing his power switch. I guess that still counts as fighting even if it’s the most pitiful fighting style ever, but yeah.

Smash also implies that the SSE is canon for ROB, not the toy, but you get what I mean.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Look if you want, I'll change it to "doesn't fight in their games." Obviously I'm not saying Villager or Isabelle are literally incapable of throwing a punch if someone starts a fight with them in the streets, but Animal Crossing never gives me a reason to believe they could. That's my whole point on "creative liberties." An Animal Crossing character throwing fists and actually fighting someone is inherently out of place. Not because of character, but because of the very genre and gameplay of Animal Crossing main series--main games, not the Amiibo Festival spinoff most people just wanted to ignore.

Amiibo Festival is at least an actual Animal Crossing game. Better than the poor excuse of Mario Kart to make Isabelle sound like she would magically attack someone. Which never made any remote sense.

Sorry, who cares if it's some main game or a spin-off. The fact Amiibo Festival is used directly to make Isabelle in-character already proves that doesn't really matter. Or did we forget that spin-offs get referenced more than once in Smash anyway? Pikachu's own moveset references the card game for cripes' sake. Moreso than some of the regular spin-off games(like Mystery Dungeon, sadly absent in general). The whole "spin-off" thing doesn't really matter at all. It's a matter of whether it's really an official game or not that Sakurai could potentially reference. In fact, it's the only reason it was believable Isabelle could participate in Smash, an actual game where she does any kind of fighting. That's the moment when I realized she was actually remotely plausible. Not non-AC games which mean nothing to the character. As for Villager, I found him already believable the second he could attack another character in-game. It also helps they referenced some of the Arcade/Nintendo games from Animal Crossing(GameCube/64).

I would argue that can’t canonically fight, if “canon” for him is the IRL toy. Like, he literally can’t do anything beyond the recalibration procedure thing without there being light flashes from a CRT to direct him.

If he were autonomous, the most he could do is try to pinch you if you are that close to him for some reason (or maybe rev up a gyro and hope you just walk into it since he can’t throw it at you,) and he can’t do anything about anyone simply walking behind him and pressing his power switch. I guess that still counts as fighting even if it’s the most pitiful fighting style ever, but yeah.

Smash also implies that the SSE is canon for ROB, not the toy, but you get what I mean.

That's why I said "Just about anyone can actually fight. Especially among game characters.". I agree he's an actual good example of the case. They had to make up stuff clearly not from the games, or remotely close to it to make him work. They did a pretty good job with it too. But to be honest, I can't think of a character that felt like they were actually terribly designed. Zelda/Sheik and Pokemon Trainer come close, but the rest are pretty well done. Some clearly off in some regards(Monado Arts, R.O.B. in general, though he uses references to his own games so it's not that bad. I'm aware of stuff like Ness, but those are at least PSI moves from the games. Monado Arts I honestly didn't know till later how different it was, using made-up stuff in general).

 

[Dragoncharystary]

Hey everyone! I appreciate all of the replies that I got from my last post. Since I got so many people to participate last time I figured I would do this again with a different selection of characters.

Pick 3 characters to add to Smash.
I decided to make this selection of characters from Japanese companies. I plan on posting a selection of western guest characters for you to decide upon tomorrow.

If I get enough responses I may tally the 4 most mentioned characters from each category and put them into their own category.

Geno, Bomberman, and Travis with apologies to Phoenix and Ryu Hayabusa.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

Pikachu's own moveset references the card game for cripes' sake.

Hold up a second, I didn't know about this. It does??

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hold up a second, I didn't know about this. It does??

Yes. That's where the name Thunder Jolt comes from. A misspelling of Thunder Bolt when it was translated.

 

[Deleted member]

Amiibo Festival is at least an actual Animal Crossing game. Better than the poor excuse of Mario Kart to make Isabelle sound like she would magically attack someone. Which never made any remote sense.

Sorry, who cares if it's some main game or a spin-off. The fact Amiibo Festival is used directly to make Isabelle in-character already proves that doesn't really matter. Or did we forget that spin-offs get referenced more than once in Smash anyway? Pikachu's own moveset references the card game for cripes' sake. Moreso than some of the regular spin-off games(like Mystery Dungeon, sadly absent in general). The whole "spin-off" thing doesn't really matter at all. It's a matter of whether it's really an official game or not that Sakurai could potentially reference. In fact, it's the only reason it was believable Isabelle could participate in Smash, an actual game where she does any kind of fighting. That's the moment when I realized she was actually remotely plausible. Not non-AC games which mean nothing to the character. As for Villager, I found him already believable the second he could attack another character in-game. It also helps they referenced some of the Arcade/Nintendo games from Animal Crossing(GameCube/64).

Okay look. This was where my original point was laid out. Are you saying the gameplay represented in Smash Bros plays exactly how they do in Animal Crossing? Not only in controls, but also in genre. Yes or no.

Remember this is a 2d fighting game and not a 3d life simulator.

 

[MBRedboy31]

Regardless of who the ARMS character(s) are, you know what I want to see from them?

If someone is using them online and they disconnect, they should get instantly Stamina-KO’ed rather than being replaced with a weak AI, like what happens in ARMS when someone disconnects, just because it looks so silly.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Okay look. This was where my original point was laid out. Are you saying the gameplay represented in Smash Bros plays exactly how they do in Animal Crossing? Not only in controls, but also in genre. Yes or no.

Remember this is a 2d fighting game and not a 3d life simulator.

I'm saying AC is represented pretty well overall. Nothing feels off whatsoever to me.

I don't see anything remotely unbelievable or even a slight stretch for them to do.

And very few moves "exactly as they do" anyway, because games are being translated very differently to Smash. Like, let's see, a few moves that actually are accurate... Upthrust, Downthrust(though I forget which of the two child Links had him immediately drop down. I think it was Toon Link, cause I remember the firey Downthrust only Young Link can do?), Mario's Fireball(I specify this cause Luigi's isn't accurate to the games), Charge Shot, Samus' Bombs, kind of on Link's Bombs(all 3 Links) for a few examples. Expecting that all the time is silly. Expecting them to play in a realistic way based upon what they can do in their own games or at least the content in the games in general? Yeah. I'd say Smash got that down pretttttty well.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm saying AC is represented pretty well overall. Nothing feels off whatsoever to me.

I don't see anything remotely unbelievable or even a slight stretch for them to do.

Now hold on. I'm not saying anything is a stretch or that something feels off or even representation. I am asking you that does Villager and Isabelle play like they do in Animal Crossing. Not how they act. How they play.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

The overall point, I think, is that there are liberties taken with essentially every character on the roster. Denying that is being flat out ignorant of the game we play.

I made a post some time ago listing roughly 20 examples of liberties being taken among different characters. Off the top of my head, I would predict that wasn’t even 25% of the liberties taken among the roster. No character will ever be 100% based on their counterparts in their home games. For the most part, despite never being 100% accurate, most of the time the interpretation works out very, very well.

To the point with ARMS, I have a feeling it’s going to be Spring Man and Ribbon Girl, but I see no reason for anybody to outright see an amalgamation of characters as “impossible”. Unlikely is one thing, but completely ruling it out is something else completely.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

It shouldn't come off as an surprise if Nintendo actually chooses to go with its most popular character especially given some of Ultimate's newcomer .

So either Minmin or Twintelle.

Keep that in mind.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Now hold on. I'm not saying anything is a stretch or that something feels off or even representation. I am asking you that does Villager and Isabelle play like they do in Animal Crossing. Not how they act. How they play.

Well, no. But literally nobody can say that(...okay, Ryu/Ken/Terry, kind of? They're the closest).

However, that's still a silly point to make. Creative liberties are absolutely fine, as can combining characters as long as it's workable(like Pikmin actually works having Alts, or Koopalings).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I also would rather they be good representations of said characters. But having slightly inaccurate representation is still 100x better than not having them playable at all.

I disagree for the most part. I don't want any of the misrepresented characters to go, I like them too much (I was a huge proponent of "Everyone is Here!" before that was actually a thing), but I want them fixed dangit! But I'd rather see each new character done right the first time.

I mean my challenge is still open if you disagree with my other points, since we got the dialogue going.

"Name a single character outside of [2d platformers and 2d fighters] who play like they do in their games"

Apology accepted, btw

I'm not arguing for the character to be 1-1 with how they are in ARMS. I wouldn't even argue that a Rivals of Aether character should be 1-1 because that would just deny them access to systems that literally everyone has access to, and thus wouldn't function that well. What I want, is that every character captures their main draw, and that the first representative captures their series's main draw without sacrificing their own.

Spoiler: No Actual Spoilers

• ARMS's main draw is the FPS like combat, but with all attacks being melee attacks. That, and the ability to customize your character's loadout to augment your character's gameplan or try and counter your opponent's.
  • Literally every character has stretchy ARMS and can fulfill that first requirement.
  • The second one is unknown, but most people agree that the character is going to have some sort of ARMS switching mechanic (or at least I think they do), which would help fulfill that second one.
• Spring Man's main draw is that he's the simplest, allowing him to be the easiest to wrap your head around, and be a balanced fighter for people who want one.
  • I believe that adding other character's mechanics to this character would rid him of this main draw.
• Min Min's main draw is her dragon ARM (not to be confused with the Dragon ARM, as in, the actual weapon), which allows her to be incredibly oppressive. Her deflect kick really just serves to make this even better because it allows her to make counterattacks more easily, and makes aerial movement more safe.
  • Giving Min Min her dragon ARM in game would allow her to make her normals much scarier than someone like Spring Man, giving her her more aggressive playstyle.
  • Giving Spring Man this ability would make him more aggressive than he should be. It also wouldn't make sense because he has no connections to dragons or Chinese culture.

In my perfect world, the ARMS character is customizable. This way we can have multiple characters without sacrificing their main draws.

Regardless of who the ARMS character(s) are, you know what I want to see from them?

If someone is using them online and they disconnect, they should get instantly Stamina-KO’ed rather than being replaced with a weak AI, like what happens in ARMS when someone disconnects, just because it looks so silly.

*Gets owned.*
*Comes back on the revival platform*
*Explodes and loses two stocks even though they're still invulnerable*

My only gripe is that I'd never get to see it. lol

 

[osby]

It shouldn't come off as an surprise if Nintendo actually chooses to go with its most popular character especially given some of Ultimate's newcomer .

So either Minmin or Twintelle.

Keep that in mind.

Simon and Richter were picked over more popular Alucard so not sure how they support your argument.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Simon and Richter were picked over more popular Alucard so not sure how they support your argument.

Except didn't Sakurai stat that the Belmonts were added due to the ballot?

He also went with them because he figured that they'd be more recognizable then Alucard. Not sure if I'd count that being more popular then the former...

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Except didn't Sakurai stat that the Belmonts were added due to the ballot?

He also went with them because he figured that they'd be more recognizable then Alucard. Not sure if I'd count that being more popular then the former...

they're also the most popular Belmonts overall. I don't think Leon, Trevor, Christopher, Soleil, Juste or Julius hold a candle to them popularity wise (Netflix series notwithstanding for Trevor)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Except didn't Sakurai stat that the Belmonts were added due to the ballot?

He also went with them because he figured that they'd be more recognizable then Alucard. Not sure if I'd count that being more popular then the former...

To further clarify, Castlevania itself had the popular vote.

Sakurai noted Alucard is extremely popular, but felt the Belmonts were good additions for being a fan for both sides of the ocean. Not just recognizability.

 

[Will]

I don't know what a world would be like if Alucard got in before the Belmonts. Not really disagreement, just really weird confusion.

Imagine Richter being the Assist instead.

 

[Idon]

It shouldn't come off as an surprise if Nintendo actually chooses to go with its most popular character especially given some of Ultimate's newcomer .

So either Minmin or Twintelle.

Keep that in mind.

Your argument makes no sense.

Banjo and Kazooie are both the mascots and protagonist of their series. They don't have anyone nearly as popular as they are within their own game.
King K. Rool is the most popular antagonist in a franchise that already has its protagonist and a popular side character.
Ridley is one of the only recurring antagonists in the franchise in a franchise that already has its primary protagonist.

Simon isn't even the most popular character in his own franchise. He's barely got a character beyond being a guy with a whip you control. He's just the one that best represents what classic Castlevania is about.
Otherwise in the franchise, he's beaten out in popularity by Alucard, Soma Cruz, Shanoa, and if you want to include his Netflix incarnation, Trevor, characters that are popular because they twist the main concept of the franchise in interesting ways. Richter then was the perfect choice to echo as he is both popular and representative of Castlevania.

Except didn't Sakurai stat that the Belmonts were added due to the ballot?

He also went with them because he figured that they'd be more recognizable then Alucard. Not sure if I'd count that being more popular then the former...

Because people vote for characters who they think are possible to get in, not who they love the most within a franchise. Characters like Chun-li and Tifa may be some of the most popular female videogame characters in the world but they will never make it into a crossover before Ryu and Cloud will. Similarly, a Belmont over Alucard is a given.

TL;DR: ARMS has its mascot character already and while adding someone else isn't out of the question, it doesn't have precedent like you're trying to say.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Except didn't Sakurai stat that the Belmonts were added due to the ballot?

He also went with them because he figured that they'd be more recognizable then Alucard. Not sure if I'd count that being more popular then the former...

He said that Belmonts would have probably been better for old time fans despite Alucard being more recognizable

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Had Sakurai of gone with Alucard instead.

So much for the protagonist first rule amIrite? Same with how Slime was considered before Hero.

And of course we can't forget Heihachi, Nightmare and Scorpion who aren't even the protagonists of their franchise but would obviously be the ones chosen if it were to get an playable character. Mascots yes but still not the main protagonists but wait...I guess that will mean if those series' get representation it'll either be Jin, Siegfried and Liu Kang I guess because they're the protagonists.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd say yes, yes they do, overall.

Not saying creative liberties don't exist(namely Balloon Fight and Boxing Gloves moreso than anything else, really), but they feel pretty accurate.

So in Smash Bros, if I move up, then I will move toward the z-plane, right? If I press what's normally an inventory button in Animal Crossing, I will pull out my inventory to switch tools? If I dig my shovel in certain areas on the stage, will I uncover a fossil or pitfall trap?

Look, we're having two different conversations right now and I'm really trying to get you to see what I'm saying. I'm not talking about representation. Obviously Sakurai did the best he could and every character looks great imo. I think they represented Animal Crossing well. However, my original posts--all the way back two or three pages ago--was not about that.

You see, some people in this thread fear that characters will not play exactly like they do in their original games. I think you and I can agree that this is an unrealistic expectation. Smash is inherently a very unique and very rare genre, so none of the fighters will actually play like they do in their own games. Sakurai has to deliberately make them function inside of a platform fighter. This is what I mean by creative liberties. "The necessary changes to a character Sakurai takes to include the fighter as a playable character in a genre they're unfamiliar in." That is what I mean by creative liberties.

You'll notice in my original post that I not only referenced Animal Crossing, but I also referenced around half of the cast of Smash Bros. That is because every character has a creative liberty thrown in to make them playable in a platform fighter setting. This is fine. It has to happen.

In what the original argument was about, ARMS is all about a very specific and minimalist gameplay style, but playing a game like ARMS is very different from playing Smash Bros. So therefore, no matter what, the feel of Spring Man or any ARMS character in Smash will not feel like you are playing ARMS.

It's not about Animal Crossing. This has nothing to do with Isabelle or Amiibo Festival. This has to do with the concept of a composite fighter in ARMs and how it is not impossible.

I'm not arguing for the character to be 1-1 with how they are in ARMS. I wouldn't even argue that a Rivals of Aether character should be 1-1 because that would just deny them access to systems that literally everyone has access to, and thus wouldn't function that well. What I want, is that every character captures their main draw, and that the first representative captures their series's main draw without sacrificing their own.

But my point is that they can't inherently capture their home game when they don't play like their home game. Even Joker, one of the characters with the most care and attention to their visual design, feels unlike anything in Persona 5. Also some don't make sense. Like if Joker can just fly with Arsene, Persona 5's story would just be invalidated right off the bat.

Like even as someone who loves Banjo and Hero, there are certainly creative liberties that does not make them exactly how I imagine them from their origin games even outside of gameplay. I could go into detail, but I think it pays for me to remember that this is not Dragon Quest or Banjo-Kazooie. This is Smash Bros.

I mean how many of us were introduced to series we never heard of in Smash Bros, and then when we tried them out, we went "that's not how they are in Smash?" Because these creative liberties are just baked into the inherent concept of a platform-fighting game, I just can't see an issue with a lot of nitpicks.

But we'll agree to disagree there.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So in Smash Bros, if I move up, then I will move toward the z-plane, right? If I press what's normally an inventory button in Animal Crossing, I will pull out my inventory to switch tools? If I dig my shovel in certain areas on the stage, will I uncover a fossil or pitfall trap?

Look, we're having two different conversations right now and I'm really trying to get you to see what I'm saying. I'm not talking about representation. Obviously Sakurai did the best he could and every character looks great imo. I think they represented Animal Crossing well. However, my original posts--all the way back two or three pages ago--was not about that.

You see, some people in this thread fear that characters will not play exactly like they do in their original games. I think you and I can agree that this is an unrealistic expectation. Smash is inherently a very unique and very rare genre, so none of the fighters will actually play like they do in their own games. Sakurai has to deliberately make them function inside of a platform fighter. This is what I mean by creative liberties. "The necessary changes to a character Sakurai takes to include the fighter as a playable character." That is what I mean by creative liberties.

You'll notice in my original post that I not only referenced Animal Crossing, but I also referenced around half of the cast of Smash Bros. That is because every character has a creative liberty thrown in to make them playable in a platform fighter setting. This is fine. It has to happen.

In what the original argument was about, ARMS is all about a very specific and minimalist gameplay style, but playing a game like ARMS is very different from playing Smash Bros. So therefore, no matter what, the feel of Spring Man or any ARMS character in Smash will not feel like you are playing ARMS.

Apparently you didn't see my edit.

That's all I really plan to say.

Had Sakurai of gone with Alucard instead.

So much for the protagonist first rule amIrite? Same with how Slime was considered before Hero.

And of course we can't forget Heihachi, Nightmare and Scorpion who aren't even the protagonists of their franchise but would obviously be the ones chosen if it were to get an playable character. Mascots yes but still not the main protagonists.

...Alucard is also a protagonist of his own game, to be fair. The problem is these are trying to make up some hard rules when they're at best guidelines. In many cases, those "main protagonists" are also mascots of their own game. A game can have more than one mascot, as well. Cloud isn't the main protagonist of all of Final Fantasy, but he is of his own game. He also was the biggest character in general you could get, not because of a mascot status, not because of a being simply a protagonist, but because he's the main character in general of FFVII, which revolutionized FF as a whole, as well as 3D rpg's in general(though to be fair, a lot took their own spin on things regardless).

 

[Deleted member]

Well, no. But literally nobody can say that(...okay, Ryu/Ken/Terry, kind of? They're the closest).

However, that's still a silly point to make. Creative liberties are absolutely fine, as can combining characters as long as it's workable(like Pikmin actually works having Alts, or Koopalings).

Then... we agree. Oh my god. It took us two or three pages for you to read what I was actually arguing so you can give me your opinion on it. Thanks for that. Next time, read what's actually said before you make an entirely different argument about hitting people with nets or whatever the **** you were arguing.

 

[Cosmic77]

Of all the franchises we could argue about regarding whether or not the "protagonist first" rule would apply, ARMS is probably the silliest.

Every arm in the game functions exactly the same regardless of which character you choose. Anything that would make an ARMS character stand out from other characters comes from one of two — that's right, two — special abilities. That might make them feel extremely different in a game where your only attacks are left punch, right punch, and grab, but when put in Smash, it's not going to matter much. When you have to make a moveset that has tilts, Smash attacks, throws, aerials, specials, and a few other things, suddenly those one or two special abilities don't stand out as much.

As I've said several times before, the special abilities won't be the focus of the moveset. They might occupy one, maybe two special attacks at best, but most of what we get should be stuff that any ARMS character could do.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Of all the franchises we could argue about regarding whether or not the "protagonist first" rule would apply, ARMS is probably the silliest.

Every arm in the game functions exactly the same regardless of which character you choose. Anything that would make an ARMS character stand out from other characters comes from one of two — that's right, two — special abilities. That might make them feel extremely different in a game where your only attacks are left punch, right punch, and grab, but when put in Smash, it's not going to matter much. When you have to make a moveset that has tilts, Smash attacks, throws, aerials, specials, and a few other things, suddenly those one or two special abilities don't stand out as much.

As I've said several times before, the special abilities won't be the focus of the moveset. They might occupy one, maybe two special attacks at best, but most of what we get should be stuff that any ARMS character could do.

All I hope is that they properly incorporate any personalities. At least the Koopalings got that. Poor Alph... Hell, even the Byleths did. I wish they'd just patch Alph's animations slightly or give him a voice or something. Albeit, a voice is asking for a lot considering you need to hire an extra person. Maybe next game he'll get a voice/new animations or just be an easy Echo. As much as I'm not surprised he's still an Alt at this point(a lot of it is due to Pikmin being completely dead, whereas the other franchises with Echoes were all active in some way, even if not simply new games, as well as Alph being fine as an alt beyond the animations, as Pikmin are the core part of the moveset too), it still sucks how badly he's represented. He doesn't even need his own slot to be better done.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Had Sakurai of gone with Alucard instead.

So much for the protagonist first rule amIrite? Same with how Slime was considered before Hero.

And of course we can't forget Heihachi, Nightmare and Scorpion who aren't even the protagonists of their games.

I'm sure this has been brought up before but the protagonist first rule is a misunderstanding of the idea that the most recognizable character should get in first in order to properly represent their series. There are a few exceptions; Pikachu is the most recognizable but doesn't fully represent the series by itself (that honor goes to the Pokémon Trainer) and Hero isn't the most recognizable, but represents the series better than Slime ever could. Generally though, this sentiment reigns true.

But my point is that they can't inherently capture their home game when they don't play like their home game. Even Joker, one of the characters with the most care and attention to their visual design, feels unlike anything in Persona 5. Also some don't make sense. Like if Joker can just fly with Arsene, Persona 5's story would just be invalidated right off the bat.

Like even as someone who loves Banjo and Hero, there are certainly creative liberties that does not make them exactly how I imagine them from their origin games. I could go into detail, but I think it pays for me to remember that this is not Dragon Quest or Banjo-Kazooie. This is Smash Bros.

I mean how many of us were introduced to characters from series we never heard of in Smash Bros, and then when we tried them out, we went "that's not how they are in Smash?" Because these creative liberties are just baked into the inherent concept of a platform-fighting game, I just can't see an issue with a lot of nitpicks.

But we'll agree to disagree there.

I don't agree that the gameplay has to be exactly the same between their home series and Super Smash Bros. in order to capture what makes the home series special. For example, the Pokémon Trainer is all about picking the right Pokémon for the job, and while it's not there mechanically, it's shown through dialogue and animations that they care about their Pokémon. This is exactly what Pokémon is about, and we didn't need PP or type effectiveness to get there, in fact those systems actually hurt the original version of the character (well...that and certain Pokémon were way better than others in most situations).

But yeah, I think it's clear that we just think differently in this aspect. I just hope people can see where I'm coming from rather than just seeing me as a raging idiot. Though...I suppose that's fair too.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Your argument makes no sense.

Banjo and Kazooie are both the mascots and protagonist of their series. They don't have anyone nearly as popular as they are within their own game.
King K. Rool is the most popular antagonist in a franchise that already has its protagonist and a popular side character.
Ridley is one of the only recurring antagonists in the franchise in a franchise that already has its primary protagonist.

Simon isn't even the most popular character in his own franchise. He's barely got a character beyond being a guy with a whip you control. He's just the one that best represents what classic Castlevania is about.
Otherwise in the franchise, he's beaten out in popularity by Alucard, Soma Cruz, Shanoa, and if you want to include his Netflix incarnation, Trevor, characters that are popular because they twist the main concept of the franchise in interesting ways. Richter then was the perfect choice to echo as he is both popular and representative of Castlevania.



Because people vote for characters who they think are possible to get in, not who they love the most within a franchise. Characters like Chun-li and Tifa may be some of the most popular female videogame characters in the world but they will never make it into a crossover before Ryu and Cloud will. Similarly, a Belmont over Alucard is a given.

TL;DR: ARMS has its mascot character already and while adding someone else isn't out of the question, it doesn't have precedent like you're trying to say.

Honestly, this is a classic case of people potentially relying on the popularity argument too much.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't agree that the gameplay has to be exactly the same between their home series and Super Smash Bros. in order to capture what makes the home series special. For example, the Pokémon Trainer is all about picking the right Pokémon for the job, and while it's not there mechanically, it's shown through dialogue and animations that they care about their Pokémon. This is exactly what Pokémon is about, and we didn't need PP or type effectiveness to get there, in fact those systems actually hurt the original version of the character (well...that and certain Pokémon were way better than others in most situations).

But yeah, I think it's clear that we just think differently in this aspect. I just hope people can see where I'm coming from rather than just seeing me as a raging idiot. Though...I suppose that's fair too.

Yeah I see where you're coming at the end of the day and I'm ultimately fine if an ARMS character isn't an amalgam even if it's Spring Man. No harm done, at least with me. You were actually self-aware and admitted where you jumped the gun unlike that other bloke.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Reason I'm kinda casting doubts on Spring Man tbh is due to already being an assist trophy. I'm of the opinion assists won't be promoted and we've never seen it ever happen through Smash. Whenever an character who has been an assist, they became playable later in the next game.

Little Mac in Brawl and Sm4sh.
Isabelle and Dark Samus in Sm4sh and Ultimate.

Why I could see this being the only possible exception with Spring Man eventually being in Smash 6 (If there ever is one).

That said I find spirits more likely to be promoted if anything.

I could be wrong believe me and if I am I'll admit it.

 

[Will]

This arguing ain't gonna mean **** at the end of the day unless you really wanna rub it in on someone's face the day-of reveal. Is the infraction worth boasting around your massive brain and high IQ for knowing such events would happen? hey man i did it when captain toad got deconfirmed it was worth it

 

[Cosmic77]

Reason I'm kinda casting doubts on Spring Man tbh is due to already being an assist trophy. I'm of the opinion assists won't be promoted and we've never seen it ever happen through Smash. Whenever an character who has been an assist, they became playable later in the next game.

Little Mac in Brawl and Sm4sh.
Isabelle and Dark Samus in Sm4sh and Ultimate.

Why I could see this being the only possible exception with Spring Man eventually being in Smash 6 (If there ever is one).

That said I find spirits more likely to be promoted if anything.

I could be wrong believe me and if I am I'll admit I was.

Just a few weeks ago people were saying ARMS couldn't get in because it was already represented, and Nintendo/Sakurai was only intrested in expanding the crossover.

It could be someone other than Spring Man, but I don't think the AT thing is a good argument. One, that AT was added before Sakurai even knew there'd be a second pass, and two, if Nintendo is the one calling the shots, then I doubt they'd let an AT stop them from adding a mascot of a series that's not on the roster yet. "That's right, Spring Man is an AT. No working around that. Guess we'll have to use our second option, Ribbon Girl, instead. It's a good thing Mii Costumes and Spirits aren't the same as ATs."

The AT rule may or may not even exist. We're just putting stock into it because it's never happened before, which isn't saying much because this is only the second Smash game with DLC.