Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[N3ON]

Sometimes, when I'm having a deep, restful sleep, I spontaneously sit bolt upright, wide awake, and, in a cold sweat, shout "HUMORESQUE OF A LITTLE DOG".

Edit: I can't express how much I hate this post having started a new page.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Speaking of Mother music, I wish we would have gotten some of the vocal tracks in Smash, as is or as remixes.

I'll limit myself to one since I don't want to clog up the thread, but the Mother official Album had some high production music for a 1989 video game.

I have CHIIIILLS! We need this in Smash yesterday!

I believe they renamed all these songs because every song from a given series can play on any stage from said series, meaning there's no need to have them named after their stage anymore.

I personally love this change since now all of the songs are named correctly. Now they just need to typo the typo in one of the Earthbound song titles and address the fact that Quick Man and Ice Cream Island are actually medleys and I will be super happy.

you dont even have to get main draw level. the suggestion that arms have that level of customization has no logistical sense or game design merrit.

Then explain Custom Moves and the Mii Fighters to me.

its similair to people thinking Nintendo would modify an existing assist trophy.

Having an Assist Trophy not be summonable when the character is on the field for polish reasons (and so that players don't get the two confused) does have merit in terms of game design. Besides, you could knock out the code for this in about two hours tops.

Sometimes, when I'm having a deep, restful sleep, I spontaneously sit bolt upright, wide awake, and, in a cold sweat, shout "HUMORESQUE OF A LITTLE DOG".

Edit: I can't express how much I hate this post having started a new page.

If it makes you feel any better it was on the previous page when I first saw it.

Random Fact: When I was younger I thought Humoresque was pronounced "hum-or-skew".

 

[MrElectroG64]

That's not "almost an echo". That's MORE than some echoes actually got to differentiate themselves from their original character.

well, I mean, it would be "almost an echo" in that it just isn't called one or counted separately. Think of it as being part of a bigger whole with an "ARMS moveset."

I don't think it's a good idea for pallet swaps and alternate costumes to play differently from one another since there's not really an indication for this to be a thing, however I do think making the ARMS characters into a custom character like the Mii Fighters would be a great implementation of ARMS's main draw.

That's fair, though I'd also argue that there are plenty of other features of fighters that aren't immediately apparent, though maybe there could be some sort of indicator on the CSS that shows there's a specific difference for each character repped as an alt, such as a dedicated icon for each of them, or even each of their portraits being them performing their specific ability.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

"Initially, I had considered including Lucina as one of Marth’s alternate costumes. After all, she has a close relationship with him in FE:A. In such cases, even if two characters’ names and voices differ, as long as they function the same way, I assign them as alternate costumes. The Wii Fit Trainers, Villagers, and Robin are examples of this setup.

However, even though Lucina shares her physical stats and techniques with Marth, the characteristics of their attacks differ. When two such similar characters function in an even slightly different manner, I give them a separate spot on the roster since that will affect battle records and whatnot. In that sense, you could say she was very lucky to join the fray!"

This alone make this idea of alts with different moves laughable at best

 

[Knight Dude]

God I wish I was as passionate for anything as some of you guys are for hating Xenoblade 2. Anyway, does anyone think we're getting more Mario content in Smash amidst all those rumors? All I expect is a spirit event or two, there aren't any Mario characters I'd expect Nintendo to request. Best timeline is getting Fire Mario.

Sunshine Remake, and we get an Ill Piantamiso(I think that's his name)Spirit fight. Maybe some bosses and the other F.L.U.D.D Nozzles too.

 

[MrElectroG64]

"Initially, I had considered including Lucina as one of Marth’s alternate costumes. After all, she has a close relationship with him in FE:A. In such cases, even if two characters’ names and voices differ, as long as they function the same way, I assign them as alternate costumes. The Wii Fit Trainers, Villagers, and Robin are examples of this setup.

However, even though Lucina shares her physical stats and techniques with Marth, the characteristics of their attacks differ. When two such similar characters function in an even slightly different manner, I give them a separate spot on the roster since that will affect battle records and whatnot. In that sense, you could say she was very lucky to join the fray!"

This alone make this idea of alts with different moves laughable at best

that means nothing when the koopalings exist as alts. Sakurai literally made up things they never even do to make them alts. That's also something he said during smash 4's development, which is as of now outdated, since we're not on that game anymore.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

that means nothing when the koopalings exist as alts. Sakurai literally made up things they never even do to make them alts.

It's not about the source material, it's about the characters doing different things in Super Smash Bros. Like, if the Koopalings were able to cast spells that had unique effects (with Bowser Jr. spitting a fireball instead), then each Koopaling would have a different slot following the same logic as Cutie Gwen's quote.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

that means nothing when the koopalings exist as alts. Sakurai literally made up things they never even do to make them alts. That's also something he said during smash 4's development, which is as of now outdated, since we're not on that game anymore.

What moves do they have that function differently then? That's the reasoning Sakurai gave after all as it ****s with the battle records and makes balancing a pain

 

[Tako Tuesday]

Now they just need to typo the typo in one of the Earthbound song titles and address the fact that Quick Man and Ice Cream Island are actually medleys and I will be super happy.

They actually fixed the typo, which was "Bein' Friend" to "Bein' Friends" in a recent update. I believe it was 6.0.0 but I may be mistaken. Quick Man's theme however, should just be renamed "Quick Man Stage/Heat Man Stage" or something.

 

[MrElectroG64]

What moves do they have that function differently then? That's the reasoning Sakurai gave after all as it ****s with the battle records and makes balancing a pain

how about all the stuff that they do during their boss battles in every single game they've been in? Their most iconic weapons are their Magic Wands, of which they use to actually cast magic spells. None of that is used in their moveset, with the closest thing being them using brutally disfigured versions of their wands as clubs to hit people with for one move. Oh, and their shell attacks? The one attack they all do more than using their magic wands? Not even used at all.

It's not about the source material, it's about the characters doing different things in Super Smash Bros. Like, if the Koopalings were able to cast spells that had unique effects (with Bowser Jr. spitting a fireball instead), then each Koopaling would have a different slot following the same logic as Cutie Gwen's quote.

fair enough, however, the point still stands that that's an outdated quote, as sakurai has gone back on what he's said for just about every single time he's said something.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

how about all the stuff that they do during their boss battles in every single game they've been in? Their most iconic weapons are their Magic Wands, of which they use to actually cast magic spells. None of that is used in their moveset, with the closest thing being them using brutally disfigured versions of their wands as clubs to hit people with for one move. Oh, and their shell attacks? The one attack they all do more than using their magic wands? Not even used at all.

I don't get this, I bring up Sakurai outright explaining why he didn't and won't make palettes/alts have different properties and your argument is... Another example of Sakurai choosing not do that? Surely you realize you're only proving me right here

 

[Dinoman96]

Honestly the main reason we keep clinging on this idea of a Hero-esque set up of different alt characters is because it gives Spring Man a chance of being in, just with a big marketing catch.

Like on paper, it would make sense to just go with Spring Man (and Ribbon Girl) because he's the lead character/poster character...but like, why would Nintendo hype up this ARMS fighter and drumming up mystery for it, only for it to just be the obvious poster characters? It feels like Nintendo is building up to either the alformentioned Hero gimmick of having multiple characters in one, or a left field "side character" like Twintelle or Min Min.

While putting Spring Man in does break the assist trophy "rule", putting in someone like Min Min breaks the "main character before anyone else rule", a pattern which has been apparant for every single series included onto Smash's roster up to this point. It's quite the conundrum.

 

[Knight Dude]

Hmm, if you could add a total of two more unique characters to one or two existing third-party franchises within Smash, but all other third-party franchises in the game who don't receive a character in this way would never again receive another playable character, which two would you add?

I would, personally, add Tatsuya to Persona and Terra to Final Fantasy, but I'm interested to hear what other peoples' viewpoints on such a question are.

Mega Man X and Chun-Li. Capcom bias, sure, but it'd be what I'd go with. Though Tails as Echo like Chrom could suffice in its own way.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

how about all the stuff that they do during their boss battles in every single game they've been in? Their most iconic weapons are their Magic Wands, of which they use to actually cast magic spells. None of that is used in their moveset, with the closest thing being them using brutally disfigured versions of their wands as clubs to hit people with for one move. Oh, and their shell attacks? The one attack they all do more than using their magic wands? Not even used at all.

But they don't use any of that, do they? They don't need to at all.

Though it helps that the Koopa Clown Car exists and is a core of the moveset, which is how he was able to easily mash them together. Though to be honest, the ARMS aren't much different in the analogy, as they represent the main unique focus of the characters, with them being combined otherwise with small combat abilities. Not unlike Simon and Richter(just as one full character instead of two).

The thing is? The ARMS characters are actually pretty similar to this situation, just don't need a vehicle. There's enough with proportions similar enough to easily put them together, with voicework to keep their personalities intact, at most their taunts could have slight differences in animation but no tangible gameplay changes(like Byleth), while the core thing is they can use a ton of unique ARMS in general to spice them up. Also, we know that having slightly altered models can work for an alternate costume as shown with Ridley. Stuff like armor isn't the same as entirely different proportions. I also wonder if part of the delay is slightly reworking some models to better fit. COVID19 is obviously part of the delay too(...well, and told to us, but it wasn't exactly a hard guess either).

I'm not saying this is favorable to people, just actually pretty realistic as a scenario.

(Incidentally, I wish they would just give Alph some alternated taunts akin to Byleth to fix his personality. This is seriously the only issue with him being an alt. He's completely OOC in comparison. At least the gameplay is accurate otherwise).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

how about all the stuff that they do during their boss battles in every single game they've been in? Their most iconic weapons are their Magic Wands, of which they use to actually cast magic spells. None of that is used in their moveset, with the closest thing being them using brutally disfigured versions of their wands as clubs to hit people with for one move. Oh, and their shell attacks? The one attack they all do more than using their magic wands? Not even used at all.

fair enough, however, the point still stands that that's an outdated quote, as sakurai has gone back on what he's said for just about every single time he's said something.

How is it outdated when Sakurai still uses that design philosophy, the Heroes have the same RNG chance percentages despite 8 being the only one to be able use Psyche Up, which provided a great opportunity to do customize the rolls. And Belmont, Richter's Holy Water functions differently but if Sakurai no longer held this principle, why isn't he an alt?

Also the idea that this is merely outdated once again ignores how it affects the game's balance by adding a lot of extra, unneccesary work

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

They actually fixed the typo, which was "Bein' Friend" to "Bein' Friends" in a recent update.

Nice! That may be why I couldn't remember which one.

How is it outdated when Sakurai still uses that design philosophy, the Heroes have the same RNG chance percentages despite 8 being the only one to be able use Psyche Up, which provided a great opportunity to do customize the rolls. And Belmont, Richter's Holy Water functions differently but if Sakurai no longer held this principle, why isn't he an alt?

Also the idea that this is merely outdated once again ignores how it affects the game's balance by adding a lot of extra, unneccesary work

I think he's trying to get at the fact that Sakurai has changed his mind before in the span of one game, but I believe this has only happened with characters, and getting an idea of how one would work is more likely than changing a design practice.

 

[MrElectroG64]

But they don't use any of that, do they? They don't need to at all.

Though it helps that the Koopa Clown Car exists and is a core of the moveset, which is how he was able to easily mash them together. Though to be honest, the ARMS aren't much different in the analogy, as they represent the main unique focus of the characters, with them being combined otherwise with small combat abilities. Not unlike Simon and Richter(just as one full character instead of two).

The thing is? The ARMS characters are actually pretty similar to this situation, just don't need a vehicle. There's enough with proportions similar enough to easily put them together, with voicework to keep their personalities intact, at most their taunts could have slight differences in animation but no tangible gameplay changes(like Byleth), while the core thing is they can use a ton of unique ARMS in general to spice them up. Also, we know that having slightly altered models can work for an alternate costume as shown with Ridley. Stuff like armor isn't the same as entirely different proportions. I also wonder if part of the delay is slightly reworking some models to better fit. COVID19 is obviously part of the delay too(...well, and told to us, but it wasn't exactly a hard guess either).

I'm not saying this is favorable to people, just actually pretty realistic as a scenario.

(Incidentally, I wish they would just give Alph some alternated taunts akin to Byleth to fix his personality. This is seriously the only issue with him being an alt. He's completely OOC in comparison. At least the gameplay is accurate otherwise).

I actually agree with all of this lol. What you're saying is something that I actually argued for initially. I only brought up the "echoes as alts" idea as a what if secenario. I feel what you're talking about would work out extremely well, so long as the characters used can either A.) have their abilities adapted into the moveset well enough for everyone else to use, or B.) have their ability just straight up ignored, without having a significant part of their character taken away. Coyle, for instance, has the ability of going invisible and using secondary sets of ARMS, however, her not doing that and only giving her a unique floating idle would still be acceptable for her character, whereas someone like Helix would need considerable proportional redesigns to be able to fit onto a unanimous skeleton and would have to sacrifice his stretching ability, which wouldn't work, since his whole character revolves around being made of a gelatinous substance able to mold itself into anything it wants to.

Also I agree about Alph, he and Olimar need some love, damn it!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I actually agree with all of this lol. What you're saying is something that I actually argued for initially. I only brought up the "echoes as alts" idea as a what if secenario. I feel what you're talking about would work out extremely well, so long as the characters used can either A.) have their abilities adapted into the moveset well enough for everyone else to use, or B.) have their ability just straight up ignored, without having a significant part of their character taken away. Coyle, for instance, has the ability of going invisible and using secondary sets of ARMS, however, her not doing that and only giving her a unique floating idle would still be acceptable for her character, whereas someone like Helix would need considerable proportional redesigns to be able to fit onto a unanimous skeleton and would have to sacrifice his stretching ability, which wouldn't work, since his whole character revolves around being made of a gelatinous substance able to mold itself into anything it wants to.

Also I agree about Alph, he and Olimar need some love, damn it!

I completely missed the start of the conversation about "alts with unique moves", didn't I? Whoops.

Yeah, I don't think it'll happen for reasons Gwen stated way earlier. Statistical differences in the Records etc. Though to be fair, programming the idea in probably wouldn't be all that hard. But it also does mess with Records as he's not able to make it so specific alts appear as having differences from others statistically. Echo stacking doesn't change that, it just makes the CSS look good. I like Echo stacking, mind you. A very nice option~

That said, maybe the alts could have some kind of unique victory screens? That'd be cool. And yeah, there's a lot of neat abilities ones could have, even the inaccuracies included.

 

[MrElectroG64]

I completely missed the start of the conversation about "alts with unique moves", didn't I? Whoops.

Yeah, I don't think it'll happen for reasons Gwen stated way earlier. Statistical differences in the Records etc. Though to be fair, programming the idea in probably wouldn't be all that hard. But it also does mess with Records as he's not able to make it so specific alts appear as having differences from others statistically. Echo stacking doesn't change that, it just makes the CSS look good. I like Echo stacking, mind you. A very nice option~

That said, maybe the alts could have some kind of unique victory screens? That'd be cool. And yeah, there's a lot of neat abilities ones could have, even the inaccuracies included.

I suppose there's always the chance that this FP comes with echoes, albeit unlikely.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

But... that song IS in ultimate?

words so i don't get banned

The song is in Ultimate, just renamed "Bein' Friends" which is the official name of the song.

Other Melee songs were renamed as well, for example "Poké Floats" was renamed "Pokémon Red and Pokémon Blue Medley" and "Princess Peach's Castle" became "Ground Theme - Super Mario Bros. (Melee)".

I believe they renamed all these songs because every song from a given series can play on any stage from said series, meaning there's no need to have them named after their stage anymore.

So they've been renaming songs this entire time and putting them in the new games? That's a very pleasant surprise since I was not aware of this until now. I think what confused me was we still have tracks in the game named "Fountain of Dreams (Melee)" and "Fourside (Melee)" yet some others have been completely renamed. I always assumed for some reason that the Bein' Friends song in Ultimate was this:

Anyway really glad to see I was mistaken. Bein' Friends will definitely works its way into my Onett rotation now.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I suppose there's always the chance that this FP comes with echoes, albeit unlikely.

It is actually possible. It helps we don't have any statement saying otherwise.

I wouldn't mind, as I said before. There's some stuff that doesn't translate well otherwise for some characters. ...Though to be fair, I wouldn't expect a character with an invisible ability anyway(some animations for their air dodge/side step and victory screens, maybe). It feels like it's kind of broken gameplay in general for regular playing. It's only available in Special Smash instead, and the item to induce that got removed(I'm aware it's not just invisibility for the item, but negation of taking damage too that make it well over the top). Not impossible, if in short bursts, but it's easily a very strong ability. It doesn't help that you're often unable to see your own character in a game you're playing, making it work poorly in stuff like Mortal Kombat and Killer Instinct, so the balance goes both ways, heh.

 

[Tako Tuesday]

So they've been renaming songs this entire time and putting them in the new games? That's a very pleasant surprise since I was not aware of this until now. I think what confused me was we still have tracks in the game named "Fountain of Dreams (Melee)" and "Fourside (Melee)" yet some others have been completely renamed. I always assumed for some reason that the Bein' Friends song in Ultimate was this:

Anyway really glad to see I was mistaken. Bein' Friends will definitely works its way into my Onett rotation now.

Actually, I don't believe they've renamed the songs at all until Ultimate. These songs have appeared in every game since Melee, like "Mother" has always been on Onett for example.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

So they've been renaming songs this entire time and putting them in the new games? That's a very pleasant surprise since I was not aware of this until now. I think what confused me was we still have tracks in the game named "Fountain of Dreams (Melee)" and "Fourside (Melee)" yet some others have been completely renamed. I always assumed for some reason that the Bein' Friends song in Ultimate was this:

Anyway really glad to see I was mistaken. Bein' Friends will definitely works its way into my Onett rotation now.

One weird detail is that the Fire emblem song from Melee, which in it's home series is named "Together we ride" doesn't have that name in smash.

 

[Ridrool64]

One weird detail is that the Fire emblem song from Melee, which in it's home series is named "Together we ride" doesn't have that name in smash.

That's technically the FE7 version of the song.

The very very original version of the song from FE1 is officially known as Story 5 - Meeting, which is why that's the name of the song in Smash.

 

[Dinoman96]

Brawl's version of Gangplank Galleon is still called "King K. Rool / Ship Deck 2" instead of just being called "Gangplank Galleon (Brawl)"

I don't get it.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

Actually, I don't believe they've renamed the songs at all until Ultimate. These songs have appeared in every game since Melee, like "Mother" has always been on Onett for example.

I know that there's no "Mother" on Smash 4 Onett but you might be right on it being in Brawl. I haven't played Brawl in years so minor details like music on certain stages have been completely lost to me.

 

[Knight Dude]

Regardless of who's chosen, I think we'll have a pretty interesting take on a boxer character. One's who's more methodical and probably has a better recovery than Little Mac. Whereas Mac is clearly a grounded rushdown character.

View attachment 268136

The smash community right now.

Meanwhile I'm that one guy hoping Misango is a costume of some kind.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Giving some of the remaining DLC fighters echo fighters would also be an good way of pleasing the fans with more characters and rounding out 90 (92) fighters.

 

[Knight Dude]

If we're talking Echoes in general, just give me Protoman. Bass would be fine too, but I always liked Protoman more.

That gives me an idea for a Fun Forum Game™. Make a fighters pass of characters, and the only rule is that they must have an echo accompanying them. Uniqueness can very.

That's a bit tricky, I'd have to change up some of my actual wants a bit.

1. Spring-Man with Min Min echo.
2. Mega Man.EXE with Starforce Mega Man echo.
3. Heihachi Mishima with Jin or Kazuya echo.
4. Sub-Zero and Scorpion, more like Ken in terms of unique moves.
5. Fiora and Elma, since they both use Double Swords
6. Metal Slug crew, Marco and Tormod on one slot, Fio and the blonde girl on the other.

Honorable mention goes Siegfried and Nightmare being paired up in a similar way.

 

[blackghost]

I
Then explain Custom Moves and the Mii Fighters to me.


Having an Assist Trophy not be summonable when the character is on the field for polish reasons (and so that players don't get the two confused) does have merit in terms of game design. Besides, you could knock out the code for this in about two hours tops.

the miis were clearly a night are in some aspects. in smash 4 they couldnt even go online and sakurai specifically said they had to work hard to get them to be able to.

and the assists trophy not being summonable is not what some people have said would happen. they thought the current assist trophy would be changed to another character. and people had to be told why that would be a nightmare logistically. turning him off while he's being used could happen but im not even sure they'd do that. its really not that big a deal.

 

[Krankees]

Brawl's version of Gangplank Galleon is still called "King K. Rool / Ship Deck 2" instead of just being called "Gangplank Galleon (Brawl)"

I don't get it.

It's even more confusing once you realize Butter Building had no problems with separating the tracks by game name.

 

[Knight Dude]

It'd make more sense to just turn off the AT if Spring-Man is on the field, if he's even the selected character. On top of that, this is the game where Chrom and get his ass handed to him by Chrom. So a character pulling double duty has happened to some degree.

We know Alucard is unable to appear on the Wii Fit stage strictly for lore reasons(Vampires are immune to mirrors, but that was back when mirrors had silver in them I think, no idea if modern ones are made differently or not.)

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Brawl's version of Gangplank Galleon is still called "King K. Rool / Ship Deck 2" instead of just being called "Gangplank Galleon (Brawl)"

I don't get it.

I don't know why Gangplank Galleon is referred to as King K. Rool, but Ship Deck 2 is used as a loop transition. It's like, two notes, but it is there.

 

[Knight Dude]

I don't know why Gangplank Galleon is referred to as King K. Rool, but Ship Deck 2 is used as a loop transition. It's like, two notes, but it is there.

It's K. Rool's theme, so using that as a title isn't that bad.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

We know Alucard is unable to appear on the Wii Fit stage strictly for lore reasons(Vampires are immune to mirrors, but that was back when mirrors had silver in them I think, no idea if modern ones are made differently or not.)

Vampires not showing up in mirrors is one of the aspects about them that has never been dropped. However, I think the reasoning is simplified to that them just plain not having reflections, which is apparently not the case in old vampire lore, which is why Alucard can appear on The Fountain of Dreams.

 

[Tako Tuesday]

I know that there's no "Mother" on Smash 4 Onett but you might be right on it being in Brawl. I haven't played Brawl in years so minor details like music on certain stages have been completely lost to me.

It is in Smash 4, but was renamed "Onett".

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It is in Smash 4, but was renamed "Onett".

This was also the case in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and likely in Super Smash Bros. Melee as well.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

This talk of music gives me an idea for a new topic: what songs do you think will come with the ARMS character?

I'm personally guessing there will be 17 tracks. The ARMS title theme, the 15 stage themes, and the VS Hedlok Grand Pix theme.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Honestly the main reason we keep clinging on this idea of a Hero-esque set up of different alt characters is because it gives Spring Man a chance of being in, just with a big marketing catch.

I see it more like hoping that Spring Man isn't the only one playable, while understanding what the most likely way for them to be playable is.

 

[Koopaul]

I'm not. Did you actually read anything I wrote? That was the entire point of that post.

All the animations I mentioned are in the game. An idle animation being different makes no difference in gameplay and neither does a taunt, both of which I just showed examples of already present in Smash. Otherwise, the battle animations remain the same. A punch thrown by Springman is going to be the exact same punch thrown by Ribbongirl.

Yes I did read it. But you seem to over estimate how different the animations Byleths alts are. Byleth's taunts and idle only have very minor differences.

The Byleths hold their sword at a different angle (the rest of their bodies are positioned exactly the same) and their Up taunt has male Byleth hold his sword to his side and female Byleth puts it behind her and tucks in her leg. THAT'S IT. Those are your differences. They aren't much.

Also, idles DO matter in gameplay. It is where your standing hurtboxes are located. Because Dark Samus floats she's slightly taller that regular Samus. The way Daisy moves her hands in her idle makes her hurtbox is slightly wider than Peach. It doesn't matter too much but if the idles are different enough there ends up being a more significant difference.

Basically my argument comes down to this. Byleths differences in animations are very minor. Tweak differences from one another. If Spring Man and Ribbon Girl were alts there would only be minor differences in their idles and taunts.