Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Tako Tuesday]

And now for something different

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Another Beta Battlefield pic. Why Phosphora and the Fly Swatter tho?

It's a hint, of course.

The next fighter will be from Mario Maker, hence the Fly Swatter and Smash 4's battlefield (since that was the first Smash game to have Mario Maker content).

Personally, I think Mr. Eraser is a lock but really this new fighter is anyone's guess.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

so was dark samus and we know how that turned out

Why is Dark Samus always used to shut people up when the general consensus is that its implementation is quite lacking?

Worked as a clone in the first two MVC games.

Yeah but that's also the game where she can shoot missiles out of her boobs.

Anyway, I'd prefer a skillset based off of Mega Man Powered Up.

 

[GoodGrief741]

What would even be the point of Big Boss as a unique character (or even an Echo TBH)?

Because Big Boss is a cool character and he's pretty important for his series. Plus there's tons of gear in the Metal Gear games that could make for a good moveset (gimme that rocket punch and Fulton command grab).

 

[Mushroomguy12]

It's a hint, of course.

The next fighter will be from Mario Maker, hence the Fly Swatter and Smash 4's battlefield (since that was the first Smash game to have Mario Maker content).

Personally, I think Mr. Eraser is a lock but really this new fighter is anyone's guess.

Mary O confirmed.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...Smash 4's battlefield (since that was the first Smash game to have Mario Maker content).

You know how these pictures were taken pretty early in development? I just realized that, considering we never see any super early images where the game is unpolished visually, I think that means Battlefield's design wasn't finalized until really close to the "Everyone is Here!" trailer.

 

[Will]

Why is Dark Samus always used to shut people up when the general consensus is that its implementation is quite lacking?

Because I wanted Dark Samus unique god dammit

 

[Freduardo]

It's a hint, of course.

The next fighter will be from Mario Maker, hence the Fly Swatter and Smash 4's battlefield (since that was the first Smash game to have Mario Maker content).

Personally, I think Mr. Eraser is a lock but really this new fighter is anyone's guess.

Undodog. As he goes back to Mario Paint. Legacy.

-

So with all the talk of “It’s going to be one ARMs rep with multiple alts,” and characters like Hero/Luminary, Bowser Jr/Koopalings, and Olimar/Alph combined with me using the new inside based lifestyle to get back into Tales of Vesperia... A multi-character for the “Tales of..” series works pretty easily.

Cless and Lloyd have overlaps with the demon fang (as do other tales characters like Guy and Flynn, but I’m not as sure about Protagonists) and I know other moves spread abound among the series mains (Tiger Strike comes to mind), is there some very likely set of four Tales protagonists with four B button specials that I’m missing due to my own huge gaps in Tales series knowledge?

 

[blackghost]

the idea that some people would welcome vergil as a clone of dante hurts my soul. if dante gets in and has a clone it would be nero. vergil doesnt work.

it reminds me the decision to make dark samus and Samus clones of each other.

but overall i really dislike echoes with the exception of chrom and ken who i think were done well but like thisvideo shows most of ultimates clones arent really praiseworthy

Why is Dark Samus always used to shut people up when the general consensus is that its implementation is quite lacking?

because it really was a poor decision. and dark samus is one of the few characters in smash that really doesnt represent its character compared to the lore. dark samus, bowser jr and kooplings

 

[HansShotFirst20]

It's a hint, of course.

The next fighter will be from Mario Maker, hence the Fly Swatter and Smash 4's battlefield (since that was the first Smash game to have Mario Maker content).

Personally, I think Mr. Eraser is a lock but really this new fighter is anyone's guess.

You joke, but I unironically think that we got Piranha Plant specifically as a Mario Maker rep.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

Because I wanted Dark Samus unique god dammit

Hey i wanted Shadow as an echo even if that meant having two Spin Dashes and a Spring and all i got was a crappy Assist (and unlike Dark Samus in Smash 4, Shadow isn't even unique because the timer item has the same effect as his Chaos Control)

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Because I wanted Dark Samus unique god dammit

because it really was a poor decision. and dark samus is one of the few characters in smash that really doesnt represent its character compared to the lore. dark samus, bowser jr and kooplings

Which is why I don't understand why "x character shouldn't be an alternate costume or Echo Fighter of y character because their skillset is too different" is always met with "well Dark Samus did it". Nobody likes this decision so why would you use it as an example of why it would be ok?

...thisvideo shows most of ultimates clones arent really praiseworthy

What a coincidence, I was just watching that video.

...(and unlike Dark Samus in Smash 4, Shadow isn't even unique because the timer item has the same effect as his Chaos Control)

Not quite. Shadow will now freeze players in place for a few seconds near the end of his attack, something the Timer never does. It also never backfires on you. Still, I can see why it seems lackluster.

 

[Will]

Which is why I don't understand why "x character shouldn't be an alternate costume or Echo Fighter of y character because their skillset is too different" is always met with "well Dark Samus did it". Nobody likes this decision so why would you use it as an example of why it would be ok?

I never said I would like it being done again, now did I? The point is that you won't like it, but it can still happen anyway.

 

[Cosmic77]

This is coming from a huge Metroid fan and someone who was rooting for Ridley since Brawl.

Dark Samus would have NEVER gotten in Smash if she weren't an Echo.

All you have to do is look at her AT from Smash 4 and you'll see that they really did her dirty by making her an Echo. Regardless, her game is over a decade old and she hasn't done much since then. If you wanted Dark Samus in Smash, this was your only option, because unless there were plans to use Dark Samus in a new Metroid game that came out somewhere between 2015 and 2020, there was no way they'd prioritize her over several other Smash characters fighting to get one of the few spots in Ultimate.

 

[HansShotFirst20]

Hey i wanted Shadow as an echo even if that meant having two Spin Dashes and a Spring and all i got was a crappy Assist (and unlike Dark Samus in Smash 4, Shadow isn't even unique because the timer item has the same effect as his Chaos Control)

>Shadow over Coldsteel

ick

 

[KillerCage]

So who here has beaten ARMS via the free trial?
By beating ARMS, I mean at least defeating Hedlok at level four difficulty or higher.
Just did that today with Master Mummy.


Just asking since today seems to be going slow with not much discussion.

 

[Will]

This is coming from a huge Metroid fan and someone who was rooting for Ridley since Brawl.

Dark Samus would have NEVER gotten in Smash if she weren't an Echo.

Ain't gonna lie, would've rather taken the Assist.

 

[Guynamednelson]

done much since then. If you wanted Dark Samus in Smash, this was your only option, because unless there were plans to use Dark Samus in a new Metroid game that came out somewhere between 2015 and 2020, there was no way they'd prioritize her over several other Smash characters fighting to get one of the few spots in Ultimate

So when's Donkey Kong Country Returns: Now with K. Rool coming out? Because K. Rool had it worse by being last seen in Mario Super Sluugers. Rather I think it had to do with her not being as demanded as Ridley, but good enough to make her playable in a cheap way.

 

[Idon]

This is coming from a huge Metroid fan and someone who was rooting for Ridley since Brawl.

Dark Samus would have NEVER gotten in Smash if she weren't an Echo.

All you have to do is look at her AT from Smash 4 and you'll see that they really did her dirty by making her an Echo. Regardless, her game is over a decade old and she hasn't done much since then. If you wanted Dark Samus in Smash, this was your only option, because unless there were plans to use Dark Samus in a new Metroid game that came out somewhere between 2015 and 2020, there was no way they'd prioritize her over several other Smash characters fighting to get one of the few spots in Ultimate.

I'd agree were it not for the fact, that they went back and redid every single frame of animation to make Dark Samus visually distinct from regular Samus. The amount of work that would have to go into that, not to mention all her unique visual effects and models, makes her have WAY more of an obvious workload than a typical echo like Dark Pit or whatever, and hell, even some semi-clones.

Dark Samus being an echo isn't a resource decision, it was a deliberate design decision for them to go out of their way to make it so that they're the same as regular Samus. They very easily could have made her a semi-clone with 1 or 2 unique moves and different weight or speed along the lines of someone like Dr. Mario who is quite literally just Mario in a ****ing labcoat, but they didn't. Dark Samus isn't an echo because she had to be, she's an echo because they wanted her to be.

Not even gonna mention relevancy considering Prime 4 is on the horizon and we have a gaggle of nonrelevant characters.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

This is coming from a huge Metroid fan and someone who was rooting for Ridley since Brawl.

Dark Samus would have NEVER gotten in Smash if she weren't an Echo.

All you have to do is look at her AT from Smash 4 and you'll see that they really did her dirty by making her an Echo. Regardless, her game is over a decade old and she hasn't done much since then. If you wanted Dark Samus in Smash, this was your only option, because unless there were plans to use Dark Samus in a new Metroid game that came out somewhere between 2015 and 2020, there was no way they'd prioritize her over several other Smash characters fighting to get one of the few spots in Ultimate.

Still, they should have given it a few more attacks from it's source material. Even something simple like replacing Bomb with creating a temporary double that echoes its movements similarly to Zero's Shadow Clone in the Marvel Vs. Capcom series would go a long way into making the character distinct from Samus in more than just aesthetics.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

So who here has beaten ARMS via the free trial?
By beating ARMS, I mean at least defeating Hedlok at level four difficulty or higher.
Just did that today with Master Mummy.


Just asking since today seems to be going slow with not much discussion.

Been marathoning it with all 15 characters at Level 4 Grand Prix. Been going in order of the character select, so I just finished my last character, Dr. Coyle, last night.

 

[Arcanir]

I'd agree were it not for the fact, that they went back and redid every single frame of animation to make Dark Samus visually distinct from regular Samus. The amount of work that would have to go into that, not to mention all her unique visual effects and models, makes her have WAY more of an obvious workload than a typical echo like Dark Pit or whatever, and hell, even some semi-clones.

Dark Samus being an echo isn't a resource decision, it was a deliberate design decision for them to go out of their way to make it so that they're the same as regular Samus. They very easily could have made her a semi-clone with 1 or 2 unique moves and different weight or speed along the lines of someone like Dr. Mario who is quite literally just Mario in a ****ing labcoat, but they didn't. Dark Samus isn't an echo because she had to be, she's an echo because they wanted her to be.

Not even gonna mention relevancy considering Prime 4 is on the horizon and we have a gaggle of nonrelevant characters.

That ignores that the point of Echoes is for their gameplay to be similar (or at least similar enough) to their counterpart that they don't have to be properly balanced against the rest of the cast. Back when Sakurai talked about Lucina, he blatantly mentioned that Echoes were time savers since they can reuse the same moveset and be balanced against themselves and their counterparts, which heavily removes a lot of the workload that would otherwise be tied to the character. Animations don't factor into that, Dark Samus looks great and is easily the most impressive echo from an animation standpoint, but her animations barely have an effect on her gameplay and thus she doesn't require much more work on her.

I'm not going to say you can't be disappointed that Dark Samus wasn't more unique, but I doubt the reason she wasn't more unique was because they didn't want to. The whole point of the echoes is to be easy to make and Dark Samus being a clone that plays close to Samus fits that mindset, if she was more unique then she'd require more work and that wasn't something that the team likely could afford when they were bringing back over 60 characters plus adding even more like Ridley and Inklings.

 

[Cosmic77]

I'd agree were it not for the fact, that they went back and redid every single frame of animation to make Dark Samus visually distinct from regular Samus. The amount of work that would have to go into that, not to mention all her unique visual effects and models, makes her have WAY more of an obvious workload than a typical echo like Dark Pit or whatever, and hell, even some semi-clones.

Dark Samus being an echo isn't a resource decision, it was a deliberate design decision for them to go out of their way to make it so that they're the same as regular Samus. They very easily could have made her a semi-clone with 1 or 2 unique moves and different weight or speed along the lines of someone like Dr. Mario who is quite literally just Mario in a ****ing labcoat, but they didn't. Dark Samus isn't an echo because she had to be, she's an echo because they wanted her to be.

Not even gonna mention relevancy considering Prime 4 is on the horizon and we have a gaggle of nonrelevant characters.

Still, the concept of Echo Fighters is likely what encouraged them to begin working on Dark Samus in the first place. Even if they spent a lot of time on her animations, they were never going to treat her like Isabelle and give her a combination of old and new attacks. That would require way more time and effort than animations alone. Their goal was to make a quick and simple character who wouldn't require much time and could be passed off as a nearly identical copy of an existing character.

And as far as relevancy goes, K. Rool and Banjo are arguably the most irrelevant additions so far. Has Dark Samus or any of the Echoes ever come close to that level of popularity?

 

[Louie G.]

I wish there were a few more unique quirks to Dark Samus but I really really love the way they move and were animated, she truly does feel a lot different than Samus. Considering Ridley (rightfully) took priority I'm not particularly surprised that Metroid didn't get two full fledged fighters in one game, as people stated echo was pretty much the only way they could have worked out this time around.

Even though I can nitpick characters like Daisy or Dark Samus and say how maybe Daisy shouldn't float or use a Toad or that Dark Samus out to use more neato phazon attacks, but I'm at least happy that their personalities are respectfully kept in tact first and foremost, and that alone justifies them being playable IMO.

I'm a big fan of Smash Remix's implementation of Dark Samus though, she's got a few extra moves without being too detached from Samus. I particularly like her having a Mewtwo-esque nair, and the DSmash is pretty much what we were all hoping for.

 

[Idon]

That ignores that the point of Echoes is for their gameplay to be similar (or at least similar enough) to their counterpart that they don't have to be properly balanced against the rest of the cast. Back when Sakurai talked about Lucina, he blatantly mentioned that Echoes were time savers since they can reuse the same moveset and be balanced against themselves and their counterparts, which heavily removes a lot of the workload that would otherwise be tied to the character. Animations don't factor into that, Dark Samus looks great and is easily the most impressive echo from an animation standpoint, but her animations barely have an effect on her gameplay and thus she doesn't require much more work on her to be put in as she doesn't require the work to make new moves or balance.

I'm not going to say you can't be disappointed that Dark Samus wasn't more unique, but I doubt the reason she wasn't more unique was because they didn't want to. The whole point of the echoes is to be easy to make and Dark Samus being a clone that plays close to Samus fits that mindset, if she was more unique then she'd require more work and that wasn't something that the team likely could afford when they were bringing back many characters plus extra like Ridley and Inklings.

That's not ignoring echoes are supposed to be similar at all. You don't need to tell me why echoes exist and what they're supposed to do, everyone already knows. I'm saying the argument used for echoes doesn't work at all to begin with considering even in Smash Bros right now we have characters like Marth and Lucina who have an OCEAN of difference between them in terms of being even remotely on the same power level. I think the concept of Smash foregoing character uniqueness for "balance" sounds absolutely laughable considering since Melee and beyond, clones have had winners and losers. Beyond that, I highly doubt balance is exactly the first thing Sakurai thinks about when we have characters who are on different ends of the viability spectrum just so they can be unique in their own way.

Then there's also the fact we have Dr. Mario who has actually less work put into them (literally having external modifiers to Mario's stats rather than his own), but is actually more unique and also has a huge gap in difference between the strength of his original. In comparison Dark Samus fact, adds more work when it comes to animations, models, and effects.

 

[PeridotGX]

I'd agree were it not for the fact, that they went back and redid every single frame of animation to make Dark Samus visually distinct from regular Samus. The amount of work that would have to go into that, not to mention all her unique visual effects and models, makes her have WAY more of an obvious workload than a typical echo like Dark Pit or whatever, and hell, even some semi-clones.

Dark Samus being an echo isn't a resource decision, it was a deliberate design decision for them to go out of their way to make it so that they're the same as regular Samus. They very easily could have made her a semi-clone with 1 or 2 unique moves and different weight or speed along the lines of someone like Dr. Mario who is quite literally just Mario in a ****ing labcoat, but they didn't. Dark Samus isn't an echo because she had to be, she's an echo because they wanted her to be.

Not even gonna mention relevancy considering Prime 4 is on the horizon and we have a gaggle of nonrelevant characters.

This... isn't true. While Dak Samus has more unique animations than the other echo fighters, it's not "every single frame". You know what? I'll list them all.

Enterance
Idle
Walk/Run
Jumps/Midair
Roll/Spotdodge
The ending portion of all smash attacks (they start the same)
Dash attack
Neutral Special
Side Special
Landing from up-B
Taunts
Victory animations

That's it. All the other attacks, any item animations, even her final smash, they're one-to-one from an animation standpoint.

 

[MrElectroG64]

just gonna repost this from the ARMS thread:

What if Sakurai just went full madman and made an ARMS fighter that had multiple characters as Alts that almost were echoes of each other? Like, have all their stats be the same, but maybe have a single special move or something that is dedicated to that character's specific special ability, then have that be interchangeable between each palette? In terms of development time, it'd be on par with Hero I'd imagine, since he had a sort of similar situation. After that, just tweak some of the animations of the few characters in the alts list that may benefit from it the most, like Dr. Coyle, who floats for her idle and movement, or Byte, who is much more rigid in his movemet.

It's a crazy idea, one that hasn't happened before in smash, but I feel like it's something sakurai would do in the name of being the unpredictable madman he is.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

my theory: it's literally just a copy of ARMS. Like, the game case is the playable character.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

As far as Echoes go, I'm just shocked at the lack of Shadow and Proto Man.

IMO all the base game third parties have a great echo option albeit with some question marks:

Snake - MGS2 Raiden (Although this would be disrespecting the character's current incarnation)
Sonic - Shadow
Mega Man - Proto Man
Pac-Man - Ms. Pac-Man (Might work just as well if not better as an alt skin because there is little fan demand to justify an echo)
Ryu -
Cloud - Zack (Square Enix)
Bayonetta - Jeanne (Just not popular enough)
Simon -

It really is a shame that we only got Ken and Richter in a game that otherwise made some great roster choices.

 

[SNEKeater]

About Dark Samus, I agree with Cosmic77. I never expected Dark Samus to be a full unique character, but I don't think she having 1 or 2 moves for her would be that complicated. They could have copy pasted her attack when she was an AT.
In any case, I'm happy she's playable. I'm aware that she wouldn't be here if she wasn't an echo fighter.

If anything what hurts me the most is that she doesn't have her own theme in the game... Not even asking for a remix, but c'mon. She being playable and not having her theme isn't right. On top of that, her battle theme is great and would fit Smash very well.

Sometimes I suffer when I remember that the only song we have from Prime 2 is the ****ing Multiplayer theme... lmao

the idea that some people would welcome vergil as a clone of dante hurts my soul. if dante gets in and has a clone it would be nero. vergil doesnt work.

Yeah. And Nero wouldn't work as an echo fighter either, but I guess that between him and Vergil he would suit better the role of an echo fighter based on Dante.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

That gives me an idea for a Fun Forum Game™. Make a fighters pass of characters, and the only rule is that they must have an echo accompanying them. Uniqueness can very.

Fp6: Spring Man (ε: Min Min). They do the belmont thing: Spring Man has a few kicks in his moveset.
Fp7: Phoenix Wright (ε: Miles Edgeworth). As Edgeworth is a prosecutor, his playstyle is more of a rushdown, as compared to Phoenix's more calculated, read-based one.
Fp8: Bravely Default 2 Protagonist (ε: Agnes). Once again, all cosmetics.
Fp9: Tails (ε: Eggman). This sounds ridiculous on paper, but here me out: They're in SA2 style mechs, hence the ability to echo eachother. They're Ryu/Ken levels of different.
Fp10: Alolan Marowak (ε: Marowak). I was desprately searching for some pairing of Pokemon that could work, but the easiest option was staring me in the face. Marowak is the Lucina to Alolawak's Marth, but hopefully better balanced.
Fp11: Maxwell (ε: Lily). Once again, all cosmetics.

Gonna split this up between A) characters who come with their own Echo Fighters, and B) characters who come with an Echo Fighter of a base roster character...

• Fighter #76 - Spring Man (ARMS)
  • Echo Fighter #76ε - Ribbon Girl (ARMS)
• Fighter #77 - Geno (Super Mario RPG)
  • Echo Fighter #61ε - Squall (Final Fantasy VIII)
• Fighter #78 - Phoenix Wright (Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney)
  • Echo Fighter #78ε - Mia Fey (Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney)
• Fighter #79 - Dr. Eggman (Sonic the Hedgehog)
  • Echo Fighter #38ε - Shadow (Sonic Adventure 2)
• Fighter #80 - Heihachi (Tekken)
  • Echo Fighter #80ε - Kazuya (Tekken)
• Fighter #81 - Bea (Pokemon Sword and Shield)
  • Echo Fighter #35ε - Flygon (Pokemon Ruby and Sapphire)

 

[Dragoncharystary]

About Dark Samus, I agree with Cosmic77. I never expected Dark Samus to be a full unique character, but I don't think she having 1 or 2 moves for her would be that complicated. They could have copy pasted her attack when she was an AT.
In any case, I'm happy she's playable. I'm aware that she wouldn't be here if she wasn't an echo fighter.

If anything what hurts me the most is that she doesn't have her own theme in the game... Not even asking for a remix, but c'mon. She being playable and not having her theme isn't right. On top of that, her battle theme is great and would fit Smash very well.

Sometimes I suffer when I remember that the only song we have from Prime 2 is the ****ing Multiplayer theme... lmao

Preach! It also pains me that we can never get this gem back from Melee:

 

[Arcanir]

That's not ignoring echoes are supposed to be similar at all. You don't need to tell me why echoes exist and what they're supposed to do, everyone already knows. I'm saying the argument used for echoes doesn't work at all to begin with considering even in Smash Bros right now we have characters like Marth and Lucina who have an OCEAN of difference between them in terms of being even remotely on the same power level.

There's more complexity behind Marth's placement vs. Lucina in Ultimate (and just Ultimate, 4 they were pretty close) which includes things like the engine not being favorable to him. In terms of the actual differences between the two they only have property differences as Lucina loses the tipper, which didn't require her to get a new move at all.

I think the concept of Smash foregoing character uniqueness for "balance" sounds absolutely laughable considering since Melee and beyond, clones have had winners and losers. Beyond that, I highly doubt balance is exactly the first thing Sakurai thinks about when we have characters who are on different ends of the viability spectrum just so they can be unique in their own way.

For Echoes it's all about workload as with these characters you don't have the time to make a full or even semi-full moveset for them, so you reuse an existing one and tweak it so that you substantially cut down the amount of time and resources you have to spend on them. When it comes to balancing you don't want to make too many changes to the point that you have to balance them against 60+ characters and different modes like 1v1 and free-for-all, because then you have to devote more time and resources to that change to adjust it accordingly.

Then there's also the fact we have Dr. Mario who has actually less work put into them (literally having external modifiers to Mario's stats rather than his own), but is actually more unique and also has a huge gap in difference between the strength of his original. In comparison Dark Samus fact, adds more work when it comes to animations, models, and effects.

Dr. Mario benefits from being a clone that existed since Melee and thus was able to build off changes from his original base. If he was added in Smash 4 with Dark Pit and Lucina he likely would be in the same boat as them.

Also, you're assuming that new animations trump gameplay differences in terms of workload. With Dr. Mario you have new moves and properties to those moves that have to made and then balanced against multiple other characters and mode and then changed accordingly so that they don't create a huge extreme in the cast. Animations don't require the addition of a new element, careful watch of that element, and managing it against multiple other aspects of the game like a new move would.

 

[KarneraMythos]

Echo fighter discussions are some of the most talked-about concepts in speculation. Seriously, they just seem to go on forever.

Anyway, add Artoria and put Modred as an Echo.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Preach! It also pains me that we can never get this gem back from Melee:

But... that song IS in ultimate?

 

[PeridotGX]

Preach! It also pains me that we can never get this gem back from Melee:

words so i don't get banned

 

[DarthEnderX]

What if Sakurai just went full madman and made an ARMS fighter that had multiple characters as Alts that almost were echoes of each other? Like, have all their stats be the same, but maybe have a single special move or something that is dedicated to that character's specific special ability, then have that be interchangeable between each palette?

That's not "almost an echo". That's MORE than some echoes actually got to differentiate themselves from their original character.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

just gonna repost this from the ARMS thread:

What if Sakurai just went full madman and made an ARMS fighter that had multiple characters as Alts that almost were echoes of each other? Like, have all their stats be the same, but maybe have a single special move or something that is dedicated to that character's specific special ability, then have that be interchangeable between each palette? In terms of development time, it'd be on par with Hero I'd imagine, since he had a sort of similar situation. After that, just tweak some of the animations of the few characters in the alts list that may benefit from it the most, like Dr. Coyle, who floats for her idle and movement, or Byte, who is much more rigid in his movemet.

It's a crazy idea, one that hasn't happened before in smash, but I feel like it's something sakurai would do in the name of being the unpredictable madman he is.

I don't think it's a good idea for pallet swaps and alternate costumes to play differently from one another since there's not really an indication for this to be a thing, however I do think making the ARMS characters into a custom character like the Mii Fighters would be a great implementation of ARMS's main draw.

Spoiler: Wall of Text

For example, say you had Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Ninjara, and Min Min available to you. Their movesets are exactly the same, allowing you to swap between three ARMS for their normals, and three ARMS for their Special Attacks. When selecting the ARMS fighter, you are given a popup menu of the four characters that you can chose from (or they could make you go to a different menu like the Mii Fighters do but that's less user friendly):

• Spring Man allows you to deflect attacks by canceling the charge of his Smash Attacks (which are just his tilts, but the ARMS are charged, and do more damage). When he reaches 100%, his ARMS are always charged, making him quite the scary contender.
• Ribbon Girl has multiple short midair jumps, the fastest fast falling speed, and the shortest endlag on her directional air dodge. This allows her to be incredibly mobile, jumping all around the opponent's attacks.
• Ninjara's parry teleports him away a short distance similarly to Bayonetta's Bat Within ability, but it's not a safety net. Ninjara's dodges are also ambiguous teleports, so his opponents have to guess which direction he's going, or if he's going anywhere at all.
• Min Min's backward roll and air dodges have her kick, which sends out a hibox near frame 1 that doesn't hurt her opponents, but clanks with their attacks, allowing for potential punishes. If she's allowed to charge her Smash Attacks long enough, her attacks become permanently charged until she's hit hard enough, or grabbed.

Next, you can swap out your chosen characters ARMS by tapping the icons next to the character's portrait (the area where you would change their pallet swaps). Some of the selectable ARMS could include:

• Toaster (Default 1): A basic ARM that does more damage when charged.
• Chakram (Default 2): An ARM that allows your attacks to curve up or down, and deals more hitstun when charged.
• Slapamander (Default 3): An ARM that allows attacks to be angled slightly, and deals more damage when charged.
• Megaton: An incredibly slow, but powerful, ARM that, when charged, can only be canceled out by powerful attacks like Smash Attacks.
• Homie: An ARM that homes in on opponents, and explodes on contact with anything when charged. If you get hit with fire while it's charged, it will explode on you instead.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Speaking of Mother music, I wish we would have gotten some of the vocal tracks in Smash, as is or as remixes.

I'll limit myself to one since I don't want to clog up the thread, but the Mother official Album had some high production music for a 1989 video game.

 

[Tako Tuesday]

Preach! It also pains me that we can never get this gem back from Melee:

The song is in Ultimate, just renamed "Bein' Friends" which is the official name of the song.

Other Melee songs were renamed as well, for example "Poké Floats" was renamed "Pokémon Red and Pokémon Blue Medley" and "Princess Peach's Castle" became "Ground Theme - Super Mario Bros. (Melee)".

I believe they renamed all these songs because every song from a given series can play on any stage from said series, meaning there's no need to have them named after their stage anymore.

 

[blackghost]

I don't think it's a good idea for pallet swaps and alternate costumes to play differently from one another since there's not really an indication for this to be a thing, however I do think making the ARMS characters into a custom character like the Mii Fighters would be a great implementation of ARMS's main draw.

you dont even have to get main draw level. the suggestion that arms have that level of customization has no logistical sense or game design merrit. its similair to people thinking Nintendo would modify an existing assist trophy.

Yeah. And Nero wouldn't work as an echo fighter either, but I guess that between him and Vergil he would suit better the role of an echo fighter based on Dante.

nero and dante at least use the similar main weapon and have both been playable main characters. it reminds me of zack being an echo of cloud rather than sephiroth being clouds echo.