Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Ramen Tengoku]

I have a question: Don't Rhythm Heaven fans want a rep because the whole rhythm thing would be unique? If so, I see a potential problem with that. It would be difficult to have a rhythmic timing to button presses when all the songs in the game have different rhythmic timing. I could easily see songs throwing off a person's play if they're too different to how you'd have to time your attacks (and I'd like to note that "Environmental Noises" is a track in the game). And of course, it would probably be more of a workload than it's worth to try and make it so the character's button presses time differently with every song in the game (to which players would then have to learn the timings for tons of different songs).

And now that I think about it, perhaps this is why Sakurai ended up scrapping the character in 4. I'd bet, however, that there could be ways to work things out. People who know more about RH than me: what could be done about this issue?

speaking for myself here, I don't care about no rhythm mechanic,

I just want one of the most underappreciated Nintendo franchises to finaly get it's time in the spotlight

They could make em a regular gimmickless character and I wouldn't mind one bit

 

[StrangeKitten]

The character's inputs should not be based on the music playing; They need to be playable with the sound off. What they can do though, is have you time button presses as a way of calling back to the rhythm of the minigame the attack comes from. An attack from Karate Man, for example, would summon a pot that heads towards the character, and the button must be pressed again at the right time to launch the pot at the opponent. You could also have it act similarly to Header in that it allows you to hit it with different angles, but the timing is what makes the attack's effect go off. Most attacks should also work even if you screw up the timing, just not as effectively.

Visual timing is a perfect way to do it. Thanks for the answer!

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Nobody acknowledges it because it's a dumpster fire of a game. It's still a fighting game as much as Mega Man (DOS) is a platformer though.


The character's inputs should not be based on the music playing; They need to be playable with the sound off. What they can do though, is have you time button presses as a way of calling back to the rhythm of the minigame the attack comes from. An attack from Karate Man, for example, would summon a pot that heads towards the character, and the button must be pressed again at the right time to launch the pot at the opponent. You could also have it act similarly to Header in that it allows you to hit it with different angles, but the timing is what makes the attack's effect go off. Most attacks should also work even if you screw up the timing, just not as effectively.

Which is my point, having to use some of the worst examples possible doesn't strengthen the argument even if I understood what Opo meant, it's lime saying 3D Sonic can't work while using 06 as your example or that more linearity in Metroid games is bad because of Other M, like, what's even the point of the argument then?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Which is my point, having to use some of the worst examples possible doesn't strengthen the argument even if I understood what Opo meant, it's lime saying 3D Sonic can't work while using 06 as your example or that more linearity in Metroid games is bad because of Other M, like, what's even the point of the argument then?

These are completely different arguments than "game isn't from X genre". What Opossum was trying to say was that Street Fighter isn't a very deep (or good) game, but it still fills the basic requirements of being a fighting game, and thus is of the genre. Same with ARMS (though it's not anywhere near as bad as Street Fighter).

 

[Michael the Spikester]

So given we're probably getting more 1st parties. Which ones do you guys find most likely? I'm thinking.

Breath of the Wild
Dragalia Lost
No More Heroes (Kind of in the same boat as Ace Attorney, Banjo-Kazooie and Bayonetta)
Xenoblade

 

[Cosmic77]

I think Rhythm Heaven will get in Smash eventually, but I don't feel like its time to shine will be in this pass. Any other first-parties who get added will probably be either a more recent character from a notable Switch game or a very popular request.

We'll see though. Just my gut feeling speaking.

 

[HansShotFirst20]

These are completely different arguments than "game isn't from X genre". What Opossum was trying to say was that Street Fighter isn't a very deep (or good) game, but it still fills the basic requirements of being a fighting game, and thus is of the genre. Same with ARMS (though it's not anywhere near as bad as Street Fighter).

The difference is that Street Fighter 1 defined fighting games, while ARMS is a huge abstraction from what's been described as a fighting game thusfar. I personally call ARMS a fighting game, but I definitely think it's a valid opinion to say it isn't -- even more so than smash.

 

[DetectiveSS]

Which is my point, having to use some of the worst examples possible doesn't strengthen the argument even if I understood what Opo meant, it's lime saying 3D Sonic can't work while using 06 as your example or that more linearity in Metroid games is bad because of Other M, like, what's even the point of the argument then?

Literally the first sentence when you check ARMS in the eshop says “The first fighting game of its kind”

It’s a fighting game, its just not traditional and might not be for everybody.

 

[Deleted member]

Which is my point, having to use some of the worst examples possible doesn't strengthen the argument even if I understood what Opo meant, it's lime saying 3D Sonic can't work while using 06 as your example or that more linearity in Metroid games is bad because of Other M, like, what's even the point of the argument then?

I mean you can argue ARMs is an uninteresting fighting game and I'll agree to that, but it's still a fighting game.

It's like how there are bad platformers. Nobody's gonna call Bubsy 3D a good game that has substance, but it is a platformer.

 

[Schnee117]

The difference is that Street Fighter 1 defined fighting games, while ARMS is a huge abstraction from what's been described as a fighting game thusfar. I personally call ARMS a fighting game, but I definitely think it's a valid opinion to say it isn't -- even more so than smash.

SF1 didn't define anything, that was SF2

 

[MagnesD3]

I'll be frank, I don't think Pichu is all that great of a choice for a gen 2 rep. Think of it this way: instead of adding a truly unique character, they made a clone of another character; and more than that, intentionally made it bad. I'm glad it's not, say, Unown, but it's still an unsatisfying way to rep the generation in my opinion. And I kinda feel like the reason they went with Pichu was that there was such limited development time for the game, so it was easy to just make Pikachu 2: Painful Electric Boogaloo. I do like that Pichu reps baby Pokemon, though. I just wish gen 2 had gotten an additional rep who was unique and not intentionally bad.



I have a question: Don't Rhythm Heaven fans want a rep because the whole rhythm thing would be unique? If so, I see a potential problem with that. It would be difficult to have a rhythmic timing to button presses when all the songs in the game have different rhythmic timing. I could easily see songs throwing off a person's play if they're too different to how you'd have to time your attacks (and I'd like to note that "Environmental Noises" is a track in the game). And of course, it would probably be more of a workload than it's worth to try and make it so the character's button presses time differently with every song in the game (to which players would then have to learn the timings for tons of different songs).

And now that I think about it, perhaps this is why Sakurai ended up scrapping the character in 4. I'd bet, however, that there could be ways to work things out. People who know more about RH than me: what could be done about this issue?

Yeah pichu is a bad one to rep gen 2 (even with the new baby mechanic), I probably would have went with Tyranitar or potentially Scizor since they would both make great unique fighters are both popular designs and rep the newly introduced dark/steel types.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I have a question: Don't Rhythm Heaven fans want a rep because the whole rhythm thing would be unique? If so, I see a potential problem with that. It would be difficult to have a rhythmic timing to button presses when all the songs in the game have different rhythmic timing. I could easily see songs throwing off a person's play if they're too different to how you'd have to time your attacks (and I'd like to note that "Environmental Noises" is a track in the game). And of course, it would probably be more of a workload than it's worth to try and make it so the character's button presses time differently with every song in the game (to which players would then have to learn the timings for tons of different songs).

And now that I think about it, perhaps this is why Sakurai ended up scrapping the character in 4. I'd bet, however, that there could be ways to work things out. People who know more about RH than me: what could be done about this issue?

I don't really want rhythm based moveset based on the music that play because that 100% unrealistic. Not only there's way too much music in the game to make that work, but the character would be impossible to balance (imagine a character being low tier when environmental noises play, but God tier when Megalovania play).

I have two ideas for the character. Either you make some moves (like the special only) timing based (kind of like Incineroar side B). I think it would still be a pretty good representation of the gameplay of those games.

My other idea was that the conductor of the Chorus kids is on the background (think of it like Pokémon trainer) and he's doing a beat with his baton and if you attack at the same tempo as the conductor beat you got some bonus knockback. This would be more close to a rhythm based moveset than my first idea, and way simpler to add than a rhythm based on the music that play, but it still create some problem, like what if there's 8 chorus kids? And maybe waiting for the conductor tempo to attack would just be awkward.

In the end, personally I don't really care that much about rhythm based moveset. Sure if Sakurai have some good ideas I would take it, but I think that with their unqiue design and unique mini games, a Rhythm heaven characters would feel unique even with no Rhythm mechanics. Also to play devil's adcocate I don't think that a Rhythm character would 100% need rhythm mechanics, as many characters from different genres in their games don't bring mechanics from their genres. For example, Snake don't have stealth mechanics despite Metal gear being the king of his genre, and JRPG characters (the Pokémon, both earthbound characters, Cloud, Joker, Shulk) didn't really bring RPG mechanics before Hero way later.

Also I don't think Sakurai cut them because they where hard to work with, but more because they where "low priority newcomer". In an interview with Nintendo dream he said: "This time our project-proposal is dated May 2012, at that time all characters were decided already. Then as production moves on we will say “We won’t put that character in” and cut out low-priority-characters." Then the interviewer ask "That means in your project-proposal there are more characters than ended up in the game?" and Sakurai answers: "Yes, but I won’t tell which of course." Source of this interview: https://nintendoeverything.com/one-newcomer-was-almost-cut-from-smash-bros-wii-u3ds/

To me it seems that the character in question is Rhythm heaven, considering that the Gematsu leak was probably a very early draft of the game, probably that May 2012 plan that Sakurai is talking about. And honestly it's not really surprising that Sakurai would consider a Rhythm heaven character low priority considering that it's a really small franchises from Nintendo.

 

[Cosmic77]

Okay, so if ARMS doesn't qualify as a fighting game, what exactly do we classify it as? Platformer? RPG? Party? Racing? Perhaps it qualifies as a puzzle game?

Two or more characters exchange blows in a stage with limited space under a time limit as they try to K.O. their opponents and win. If that doesn't qualify as fighting, I don't know what else we should call it.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Okay, so if ARMS doesn't qualify as a fighting game, what exactly do we classify it as? Platformer? RPG? Party? Racing? Perhaps it qualifies as a puzzle game?

Two or more characters exchange blows in a stage with limited space under a time limit as they try to K.O. their opponents and win. If that doesn't qualify as fighting, I don't know what else we should call it.

Personally I classify it as a tech demo like how 1 2 Switch is a tech demo, or Wii Sports/Party

 

[Slime Master]

Personally, I believe genres should be more descriptive of gameplay than they are currently, as that's usually what's useful about them. In that sense, I wouldn't call ARMS a fighting game because if I didn't know what it was and someone told me it was a fighting game I would expect something that plays vastly differently than what it actually is. Of course, under that definition, I would probably call it a party game or something, which I'm sure would ruffle a few feathers.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Perhaps it qualifies as a puzzle game?

Wrong Nintendo boxing game.

 

[MagnesD3]

Personally, I believe genres should be more descriptive of gameplay than they are currently, as that's usually what's useful about them. In that sense, I wouldn't call ARMS a fighting game because if I didn't know what it was and someone told me it was a fighting game I would expect something that plays vastly differently than what it actually is. Of course, under that definition, I would probably call it a party game or something, which I'm sure would ruffle a few feathers.

Fighters is a motion controlled arena fighter right? That’s what I would call it.

 

[Deleted member]

Probably means nothing but I think this tweet is cool.

YALL pic.twitter.com/ZNbV3sbXKg

— PUT VIKALA IN GRANBLUE VERSUS (@Blun_Z) March 26, 2020

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Probably means nothing but I think this tweet is cool.

YALL pic.twitter.com/ZNbV3sbXKg

— PUT VIKALA IN GRANBLUE VERSUS (@Blun_Z) March 26, 2020

Still think it won’t necessarily BE Spring Man and Rex.

im riding the Min Min and Elma train till the end baybee

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Probably means nothing but I think this tweet is cool.

YALL pic.twitter.com/ZNbV3sbXKg

— PUT VIKALA IN GRANBLUE VERSUS (@Blun_Z) March 26, 2020

If we get Rex then I probably flatout won't buy the pass, Xenoblade 2 irks me on such a spiritual level that I want to ignore the epilogue of Xenoblade DE because it's so obvious they want to force 2 into it

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Probably means nothing but I think this tweet is cool.

According to one of the comments. That's from January 2019.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Tyranitar

Implying being slow is an upgrade from self damage.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Okay, so if ARMS doesn't qualify as a fighting game, what exactly do we classify it as? Platformer? RPG? Party? Racing? Perhaps it qualifies as a puzzle game?

Two or more characters exchange blows in a stage with limited space under a time limit as they try to K.O. their opponents and win. If that doesn't qualify as fighting, I don't know what else we should call it.

I mean, I would say that it is a party game as well, but that label is meaningless without other genres attached. You wouldn't say ARMS, Mario Party, & Mario Kart are similar games.

Personally I classify it as a tech demo like how 1 2 Switch is a tech demo, or Wii Sports/Party

Tech demo isn't a genre and I'd argue that it doesn't even describe games; just proof of concepts. Even if it does you still run into the issues of the party genre in that it's way too all-encompassing; You can not tell me that ARMS and 1, 2, Switch! are even remotely similar.

 

[ARandomFruit]

Yeah pichu is a bad one to rep gen 2 (even with the new baby mechanic), I probably would have went with Tyranitar or potentially Scizor since they would both make great unique fighters are both popular designs and rep the newly introduced dark/steel types.

In my opinion I think Scizor would fit better not to be rude or anything but I think Tyranitar would fit better as just a pokeball pokemon. I could see them using sandstorm for some damage over time or something. Maybe sneasel would work better as a gen 2 dark type? Its even ice type which ice isn't really common in the roster. But I'm not sure how popular it is if that would even matter.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I mean, I would say that it is a party game as well, but that label is meaningless without other genres attached. You wouldn't say ARMS, Mario Party, & Mario Kart are similar games.


Tech demo isn't a genre and I'd argue that it doesn't even describe games; just proof of concepts. Even if it does you still run into the issues of the party genre in that it's way too all-encompassing; You cannot tell me that ARMS and 1, 2, Switch! are even remotely similar.

Yeah I can. Both serve little purpose beyond "WOAH LOOK AT HOW COOL OUR JOYCON TECH IS!" Which like with most early Wii games, Kinect and PSMove, will end up forgotten later because people don't care about the tech as much as Nintendo hoped

 

[MagnesD3]

Implying being slow is an upgrade from self damage.

Tyranitar should just have a lot of dope moves at play, crunch, earthquake, rockslide, outrage and sandstorm to name a few. I just imagine him as an extremely slow and heavy powerful zoner. I’ve always thought he’d be a good heavy Pokemon.

 

[DetectiveSS]

Rex might have a good shot, but the thing that makes me hesitate is that Nintendo might be pushing ARMS specifically again for a reason that doesn’t apply to Xenoblade 2. Dunno, too early to say.

I’d way prefer Elma, to be honest.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Tyranitar should just have a lot of dope moves at play, crunch, earthquake, rockslide, outrage and sandstorm to name a few.

Regardless of how cool its moves are I'd imagine it being a slow fighter, which is even more of a death sentence in Smash when in Melee Bowser is worse than Pichu, and in Ultimate Pichu was S-tier for a while.

 

[MagnesD3]

In my opinion I think Scizor would fit better not to be rude or anything but I think Tyranitar would fit better as just a pokeball pokemon. I could see them using sandstorm for some damage over time or something. Maybe sneasel would work better as a gen 2 dark type? Its even ice type which ice isn't really common in the roster. But I'm not sure how popular it is if that would even matter.

I could definitely see Scizor or Sneasel making for good picks too, either of those 3 make good representation choices, offer a unique moveset/typing and are popular Pokémon designs.

 

[Heoj]

idk what some of yall are on about but imo ARMS is a great fighting game.

 

[Deleted member]

If we get Rex then I probably flatout won't buy the pass, Xenoblade 2 irks me on such a spiritual level that I want to ignore the epilogue of Xenoblade DE because it's so obvious they want to force 2 into it

You're tearing me apart, Gwen.

Also this is most likely why buyers should probably buy individual passes instead of the whole thing.

 

[MagnesD3]

Regardless of how cool its moves are I'd imagine it being a slow fighter, which is even more of a death sentence in Smash when in Melee Bowser is worse than Pichu, and in Ultimate Pichu was S-tier for a while.

I don’t think about a tier list when selecting reps tbh. If you made his zoning tools solid and powerful kill wise then he would at least be mid tier if designed well. Rock slide and Earthquake keep away come to mind with crunch being a midrange poking option while slow is fast enough to catch sleeping foes and break shields. Outrage would be a fully armored forward moving move that would be great at killing but I’d also try to include a unique weakness besides just it being punishable.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yeah I can. Both serve little purpose beyond "WOAH LOOK AT HOW COOL OUR JOYCON TECH IS!" Which like with most early Wii games, Kinect and PSMove, will end up forgotten later because people don't care about the tech as much as Nintendo hoped

If that were true than nobody would have played ARMS for more than an hour let alone over a day, nobody would be defending it's worth as a game, and it wouldn't have any content in Super Smash Bros. let alone a playable character.

Regardless of how cool its moves are I'd imagine it being a slow fighter, which is even more of a death sentence in Smash when in Melee Bowser is worse than Pichu, and in Ultimate Pichu was S-tier for a while.

He's arguing that Tyranitar would be a cooler pick than Pichu, not a better competitive character.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I don’t think about a tier list when selecting reps tbh.

He's arguing that Tyranitar would be a cooler pick than Pichu, not a better competitive character.

Fair enough, but regardless people need to understand why Pichu got in for reasons beyond being easier to make.

Besides, if you were to replace Pichu with something like Scizor or Tyranitar, you're simultaneously making the roster more and less diverse. They wouldn't be clones, but they would contribute to Pokemon reps leaning solely towards "badass" anthros.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Besides, if you were to replace Pichu with something like Scizor or Tyranitar, you're simultaneously making the roster more and less diverse. They wouldn't be clones, but they would contribute to Pokemon reps leaning solely towards "badass" anthros.

I don't think Tyranitar counts as anthropomorphic. Well...not more than Pokémon in general. It is bipedal but it's more like Godzilla than a fantasy humanoid.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Fair enough, but regardless people need to understand why Pichu got in for reasons beyond being easier to make.

Besides, if you were to replace Pichu with something like Scizor or Tyranitar, you're simultaneously making the roster more and less diverse. They wouldn't be clones, but they would contribute to Pokemon reps leaning solely towards "badass" anthros.

My dude, a unique typing, including types unrepresented in Smash, is a lot more diverse than Pikachu 2

If that were true than nobody would have played ARMS for more than an hour let alone over a day, nobody would be defending it's worth as a game, and it wouldn't have any content in Super Smash Bros. let alone a playable character.


He's arguing that Tyranitar would be a cooler pick than Pichu, not a better competitive character.

I know Personal Experiences Mean Nothing but me and my friends stopped playing ARMS after 20 minutes, the game's lackluster and only served to go "Look at how cool motion controls can be", Wii Sports was a tech demo too yet it got a sequel which also sold well.

 

[Knight Dude]

Okay, so if ARMS doesn't qualify as a fighting game, what exactly do we classify it as? Platformer? RPG? Party? Racing? Perhaps it qualifies as a puzzle game?

Two or more characters exchange blows in a stage with limited space under a time limit as they try to K.O. their opponents and win. If that doesn't qualify as fighting, I don't know what else we should call it.

It's a fighting game, just a very simple one based on changing load-outs and aiming your long ranged normals. Still, if a sequel ever happens, I hope they address the poor spectator sport aspect of it. It can be fun to watch at times, but hardly on the level of something like DBFZ or Tekken.

Probably means nothing but I think this tweet is cool.

YALL pic.twitter.com/ZNbV3sbXKg

— PUT VIKALA IN GRANBLUE VERSUS (@Blun_Z) March 26, 2020

I like ARMS for what it is, especially its character designs. but I can't say I'd be too interested in Rex compared to other characters. If Spring-Man really was the character chosen(or Ribbon Girl and the potential Spirits) I suppose we might take Rex into consideration. I just can't jell with his design much personally. Shallow I know, but if I don't think a character looks cool, I'm not shilling for them.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Okay, so if ARMS doesn't qualify as a fighting game, what exactly do we classify it as? Racing?

I mean... it was done by the Mario Kart team

 

[Deleted member]

I like ARMS for what it is, especially its character designs. but I can't say I'd be too interested in Rex compared to other characters. If Spring-Man really was the character chosen(or Ribbon Girl and the potential Spirits) I suppose we might take Rex into consideration. I just can't jell with his design much personally. Shallow I know, but if I don't think a character looks cool, I'm not shilling for them.

Not gonna lie, the only reason I want Rex is because who I actually want are Pyra & Mythra.

But yeah, designs in Xenoblade Chronicles 2 are basically just "what looks cool, sexy, and anime," and it gets in the way for serious scenes.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Not gonna lie, the only reason I want Rex is because who I actually want are Pyra & Mythra.

But yeah, designs in Xenoblade Chronicles 2 are basically just "what looks cool, sexy, and anime," and it gets in the way for serious scenes.

I love how the example for playing alone includes the perfect scene to point at how ridiculous the jiggle physics can be