Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

As long as a 1st party character has an interesting moveset I think people will eventually warm up to them. There are plenty of 1st parties who can do that, especially if spirits and previously explored worlds don't matter as much as it seemed.

On that note I have a weird feeling the ARMS character will basically be double Link boomerangs on steroids.

 

[Krankees]

I got the full game trial. I'm thinking about checking each fighter and seeing what they can bring to a smash moveset.

 

[Idon]

Deep in our hearts, we all know there's really only one metric that determines the value of a first party character:

WHETHER THEY HAVE A GODDAMN SWORD OR NOT​

You may not like it but this is what peak performance looks like. No, I do not take criticism, disapproval, or dissenting opinions.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

On that note I have a weird feeling the ARMS character will basically be double Link boomerangs on steroids.

Most if not all ARMS don't deal damage when coming back, so you won't have to worry about that.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Deep in our hearts, we all know there's really only one metric that determines the value of a first party character:
WHETHER THEY HAVE A GODDAMN SWORD OR NOT
View attachment 267410
You may not like it but this is what peak performance looks like. No, I do not take criticism, disapproval, or dissenting opinions.

Spoiler

What about if they are literally a sword? (Yes, you could say the same thing for Ghirahim).

 

[Calamitas]

Deep in our hearts, we all know there's really only one metric that determines the value of a first party character:
WHETHER THEY HAVE A GODDAMN SWORD OR NOT
View attachment 267410
You may not like it but this is what peak performance looks like. No, I do not take criticism, disapproval, or dissenting opinions.

No criticism necessary. This is already perfect.
Though I'd question why it's DD Isaac if his look from the first two game is far more recognizable and well-known

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Most if not all ARMS don't deal damage when coming back, so you won't have to worry about that.

I'd actually be really happy if they did, but my thought process was more that they would throw out the move and it wouldn't have traditional lag. You just have to wait to attack again until the arm comes back. So you could still move, but can't attack with that arm until then. If the arm goes far or you run away, then it takes longer to be able to attack again. To compensate, you'd be able to overlap two different moves at mostly the same time, because two arms.

 

[Cosmic77]

Whoever the character is, I do think it'll be someone whose default arms are gloves (Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Twintelle). Even though I expect them to switch between different arms, I think a lot of the attacks like the jab and the tilts will be standard punches.

 

[Idon]

No criticism necessary. This is already perfect.
Though I'd question why it's DD Isaac if his look from the first two game is far more recognizable and well-known

2 reasons:
1) The only official art of classic Isaac looks dorky

2) DD Isaac is hot. And has a badass dad beard.

 

[SmashChu]

I think Euden has a chance now too. Just a hunch.

I would agree. It's a series that Nintendo has invested a lot into. It even got its own Nintendo Direct.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4wz7Mb8Kqw

It would be completely new to Smash. No music. No spirits ect. The 2nd Anniversary is in September so it could be a chance to add a character from the game.

how certain people are suddenly acting like Nintendo characters "aren't big enough" to be included as DLC. As if third-parties are the only ones capable of selling a

It's clear Nintendo doesn't it see it that way, that's for sure. They thought it was best to just announce the series the character was from even (though, in fairness, that could have been the result of Covid-19).

One thing to keep in mind is that there is going to be a natural run-off with a second pass regardless of who is in it. Some people may have only bought in when they were excited before the game's release. Some dropped the game a long time ago. Some people don't want to invest more money or just don't have any, and even some will be disappointed with the last pass. Either way, fewer people will buy in and that's to be expected.

This could be why pass may be more Nintendo focused. If Nintendo expects sales to be less, then they can pick more of their characters for which they don't have to share a cut of the sales with. Now, the rest of the pass could be business as usual and ARMS is just an exception. We wont know until they announce the rest of the characters. But I think it's telling that they started with ARMS. The last DLC (and Smash 4) heavily featured new series to Smash. And here, Nintendo picks one of their newest IPs to be the headliner for the pass. I don't think they are "saving the best for last" here.

I've noticed there is a growing sect of the Smash Bros fandom that wants Smash to be their own personal MUGAN. This is why you hear things like "They have to have third party characters because Nintendo characters wont sell." Likewise, its also why you'll hear "ARMS is a dead series" while they mock others for not knowing who Terry is. I think it's these type of fans want more non Nintendo characters so that the series can be a "celebration of gaming." The roster people have always existed (I'm probably one of them), but it's a special subset that, rather than wanting a full and complete Nintendo game they want a full and complete "Celebration of Gaming." That's a bit harder than the former. I think that's where this thinking of Nintendo characters "aren't big enough" stems from.

Also, just to clarify, I don't think there won't be any guest. Just that I expect there will likely be fewer. As I mentioned on the outset, it's easier to draw from your own library than to borrow from others. I think that's what Nintendo is doing here and I think ARMS being the first character is emblematic of it.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I think Euden has a chance now too. Just a hunch.

Smash Community: Ughhhhh another anime swordsman!

 

[Captain Shwampy]

2 reasons:
1) Official art of classic Isaac looks dorky

2) DD Isaac is hot. And has a badass dad beard.

Hiroshi Kajiyama artwork for Golden Sun is some of his worst

The difference in quality in his other work compared to Golden Sun is funny. Its like a completly different artist lol.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I don't like how certain people are suddenly acting like Nintendo characters "aren't big enough" to be included as DLC. As if third-parties are the only ones capable of selling and getting people excited.

Like, I get that there's a huge difference between Sonic and Spring Man, but to say an ARMS character shouldn't be part of the pass when there was clearly a decent amount of support for it back in 2018 comes across as, "I don't like this particular first-party, therefore we should keep getting third-parties."

It also feels like people are conveniently ignoring why Banjo vs. Steve arguments were a thing prior to Banjo & Kazooie's announcement. Like they switched to "oh, right, Banjo & Kazooie add a Microsoft copyright to the title screen, of course people would like them! That's all anyone cares about, right? Them not being owned by Nintendo?"

 

[Lamperouge]

Deep in our hearts, we all know there's really only one metric that determines the value of a first party character:

WHETHER THEY HAVE A GODDAMN SWORD OR NOT​

View attachment 267410
You may not like it but this is what peak performance looks like. No, I do not take criticism, disapproval, or dissenting opinions.

You had me at Lyn.

 

[Knight Dude]

I'd be pretty happy with any ARMS character. But I think we might have a Hero/Koopaling type of deal where the character can change based on the costume. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but this DLC is more interesting to me than about half of FP1. Still doesn't top Terry though.

I remember when someone unironically tried to argue Waluigi would be seen as less hype than 2B, Dante and Zero among the general gaming community.

Those characters are pretty popular and iconic in their own right. Dante pioneered the entire genre of Hack 'N Slash games. And Zero's one of the most popular Mega Man characters. He even headlines 4 games of his own. Adding in guys like him, Mega Man X or Protoman would be about as much as a big deal as Tails, Knuckles or Eggman. I'd argue they'd also be more popular than Waluigi. 2B I would say is less so, but only because the character hasn't been around very long.

That said, Waluigi is genuinely pretty popular, there's no denying that. But we also have most of the iconic Mario cast, unlike with Mega Man or Sonic. And again, DMC is a hugely influential series of games.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Deep in our hearts, we all know there's really only one metric that determines the value of a first party character:

WHETHER THEY HAVE A GODDAMN SWORD OR NOT​

View attachment 267410
You may not like it but this is what peak performance looks like. No, I do not take criticism, disapproval, or dissenting opinions.

>Elma

say no more, I’m sold

 

[Idon]

Hiroshi Kajiyama artwork for Golden Sun is some of his worst

The difference in quality in his other work compared to Golden Sun is funny. Its like a completly different artist lol.

Holy ****, How the hell are these the same artists, lmao.

 

[SNEKeater]

Nintendo's plan is working.

Yeah. I've played some matches of ARMS with friends back then, before I had my Switch. Now I've downloaded the game to try it and I'm actually enjoying it. I've played 5-6 online matches and I won all of them, which is strange because I'm not very good in online lol

My only potential gripe with the game is that it doesn't look like it has a good quantity of singleplayer content.

Waluigi’s exclusion from Smash Ultimate was the only one that was enough of a big meme that even the Washington Post made an article about it. It went far beyond the Smash Bubble.

Being a recurring playable character in bigger games than 2B, Dante and Zero ever were in gives him a wider appeal overall. Maybe I shouldn’t have used the term “gaming community” as much as wider audience overall due to semantic missteps (that was my fault for that), but my core point remains, someone argued these characters would bring more hype than Waluigi despite that obviously not being the case.

Obviously being a Mario character gives him a wider appeal, but it doesn't mean it would excite to the gaming audience in general. He's popular and with all the buzz around him back then, he would bring strong reactions from the fans. But Waluigi mainly appeals to the core Nintendo fanbase. Outside of that? Not really much. Not because he isn't recognizable, he is (tbf almost every Mario character is recognizable in some degree thanks to their aesthetic), but in my eyes he isn't precisely a pick that would bring strong reactions in other gaming communities. Also, I don't think "exclusion" is the best word for the situation. Waluigi isn't in the roster, but he wasn't excluded. It sounds like Sakurai or Nintendo are actively blocking him from being in the game or something, or at least it sounds like that for me.

Of course, that's my opinion. I'm completely sure he would have hype reactions from Nintendo and Smash fans, but honestly I don't think his inclusion would really impact a lot of people outside of the Nintendo community. Which isn't a bad thing, of course. A 3rd party character with decent popularity will bring more eyes to Smash than Waluigi, that's what I think.
Nothing against him, in fact I think he's one of the first party characters with better chances to make it in this pass.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Here's an idea based off of something I've heard someone else say: What if the ARMS characters are added as custom characters? It'd be like the Mii Fighters, but instead of changing their moves, you just change their properties by selecting the character (dictating the overall playstyle by changing the attributes like weight and various forms of speed), and the ARMS they use (dictating attack properties).

My only potential gripe with the game is that it doesn't look like it has a good quantity of singleplayer content.

This is probably the reason it was a flash in the pan.

 

[I.D.]

One thing nobody has pointed out (I think): for the first season pass Nintendo had a couple of years to go around negotiating for characters, since the game started planning in 2015 and entered development at some point in 2016. Sakurai singled out ARMS as a game that was considered for the base roster but ultimately didn't make it, which to me is proof that season 2 wasn't something initially planned. Because of this, season 2 must have been much more hastily assembled, in a few months at most. This isn't necessarily proof of anything, but the bar for who gets to be DLC could have been lowered* to complete another full season as quickly as possible.

*With this I mean that business, partnerships, complex decisions, etc, might have not been a big part of the equation this time. Not an indictment of the character themselves.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Those characters are pretty popular and iconic in their own right. Dante pioneered the entire genre of Hack 'N Slash games. And Zero's one of the most popular Mega Man characters. He even headlines 4 games of his own. Adding in guys like him, Mega Man X or Protoman would be about as much as a big deal as Tails, Knuckles or Eggman. I'd argue they'd also be more popular than Waluigi. 2B I would say is less so, but only because the character hasn't been around very long.

That said, Waluigi is genuinely pretty popular, there's no denying that. But we also have most of the iconic Mario cast, unlike with Mega Man or Sonic. And again, DMC is a hugely influential series of games.

To be honest, you’re right, regardless of “hype factors”, all these characters have things going for them. I think the real problem with people who whine about first party characters not being hyped enough is that it always leads to an unnecessary us vs. them mentality. So what if no ARMS character is on par with the likes of Mega Man or Snake? That doesn’t make them unworthy inclusions based off their own merits.

 

[RileyXY1]

I would agree. It's a series that Nintendo has invested a lot into. It even got its own Nintendo Direct.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4wz7Mb8Kqw

It would be completely new to Smash. No music. No spirits ect. The 2nd Anniversary is in September so it could be a chance to add a character from the game.

It's clear Nintendo doesn't it see it that way, that's for sure. They thought it was best to just announce the series the character was from even (though, in fairness, that could have been the result of Covid-19).

One thing to keep in mind is that there is going to be a natural run-off with a second pass regardless of who is in it. Some people may have only bought in when they were excited before the game's release. Some dropped the game a long time ago. Some people don't want to invest more money or just don't have any, and even some will be disappointed with the last pass. Either way, fewer people will buy in and that's to be expected.

This could be why pass may be more Nintendo focused. If Nintendo expects sales to be less, then they can pick more of their characters for which they don't have to share a cut of the sales with. Now, the rest of the pass could be business as usual and ARMS is just an exception. We wont know until they announce the rest of the characters. But I think it's telling that they started with ARMS. The last DLC (and Smash 4) heavily featured new series to Smash. And here, Nintendo picks one of their newest IPs to be the headliner for the pass. I don't think they are "saving the best for last" here.

I've noticed there is a growing sect of the Smash Bros fandom that wants Smash to be their own personal MUGAN. This is why you hear things like "They have to have third party characters because Nintendo characters wont sell." Likewise, its also why you'll hear "ARMS is a dead series" while they mock others for not knowing who Terry is. I think it's these type of fans want more non Nintendo characters so that the series can be a "celebration of gaming." The roster people have always existed (I'm probably one of them), but it's a special subset that, rather than wanting a full and complete Nintendo game they want a full and complete "Celebration of Gaming." That's a bit harder than the former. I think that's where this thinking of Nintendo characters "aren't big enough" stems from.

Also, just to clarify, I don't think there won't be any guest. Just that I expect there will likely be fewer. As I mentioned on the outset, it's easier to draw from your own library than to borrow from others. I think that's what Nintendo is doing here and I think ARMS being the first character is emblematic of it.

Some people were just spoiled by all the hype third party characters we got. Did anyone seriously expect that Joker from Persona 5, the Dragon Quest hero, Banjo & Kazooie, and Terry Bogard would all become playable?

 

[Idon]

What about if they are literally a sword? (Yes, you could say the same thing for Ghirahim).

Fi is super cool, it's unfortunate she's the mascot of wii-era Nintendo tutorialization.

 

[RileyXY1]

It also feels like people are conveniently ignoring why Banjo vs. Steve arguments were a thing prior to Banjo & Kazooie's announcement. Like they switched to "oh, right, Banjo & Kazooie add a Microsoft copyright to the title screen, of course people would like them! That's all anyone cares about, right? Them not being owned by Nintendo?"

Unfortunately, you're right. Some people only care about expanding the crossover, and believing that Nintendo characters wouldn't sell. The fact that the first 4 DLC characters (not counting Piranha Plant) were all 3rd Parties without any representation in the base roster only contributed to this fostering mindset within the Smash community, which is ironic because there was huge anti-third party sentiment during Smash 4's prerelease period. It turned into toxicity after the reveal of Byleth, mostly due to the negative reputation Fire Emblem already has within the Smash community and the general hype for more third party characters.

 

[P.Kat]

Deep in our hearts, we all know there's really only one metric that determines the value of a first party character:

WHETHER THEY HAVE A GODDAMN SWORD OR NOT​

View attachment 267410
You may not like it but this is what peak performance looks like. No, I do not take criticism, disapproval, or dissenting opinions.

It's... It's... It's so beautiful.

What about if they are literally a sword? (Yes, you could say the same thing for Ghirahim).

If only, I'd loved to have Fi as a fighter.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I haven’t even played ARMS yet (demo is downloading) and I’m excited for a character from that series.

I just love everything about it! ... except the price.
But I’ll finally get a little taste of it.

I’ve seen a lot of indifferent to negative reactions from my friends though. Has that been the case all around as well?

 

[Trevenant]

Some people were just spoiled by all the hype third party characters we got. Did anyone seriously expect that Joker from Persona 5, the Dragon Quest hero, Banjo & Kazooie, and Terry Bogard would all become playable?

Tbh Banjo and Kazooie shouldn’t be here at all and Hero to some extent. Byleth was unexpected for fighter 5 though most people were in agreement he would come eventually. If you mean all simultaneously, I recall seeing some guy tweet about a random YouTube comment that predicted them all but aside from that I don’t think anyone expected the characters we got all at once.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I don't like how certain people are suddenly acting like Nintendo characters "aren't big enough" to be included as DLC. As if third-parties are the only ones capable of selling and getting people excited.

Like, I get that there's a huge difference between Sonic and Spring Man, but to say an ARMS character shouldn't be part of the pass when there was clearly a decent amount of support for it back in 2018 comes across as, "I don't like this particular first-party, therefore we should keep getting third-parties."

To be fair it's not exactly sudden, I've been arguing against that mindset for...

****, it's been over a year. No wonder the ARMS announcement made me so happy.

The issue is that's the only game she ever headlined in, and after she was specifically introduced as a sidekick in DKC2, which was already specifically giving the sidekick of DKC1 the headlining position. It kind of does put her significantly down the totem poll, and like the DK side characters aside from Diddy Kong have been sort of in a state of limbo since.

I agree, she's basically with like Toad and Bandanna Dee in the "B-tier of characters with notable playable roles, but behind the existing characters in Smash by a wide margin." But I understand why people wouldn't exactly jump to her as a super important Nintendo character.

You lost me when you called Toad a B-tier character. The only characters on the roster more iconic than Toad are Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser and Pac-Man.

My picks were Spring Man and Ribbon Girl because they really should be here to properly represent their series, Dr. Coyle because I think her playstyle would be so much fun in Super Smash Bros., and Lola Pop because her playstyle sooooo much fun, and would probably be just as fun in Super Smash Bros.

You.

You have good taste.

Deep in our hearts, we all know there's really only one metric that determines the value of a first party character:

WHETHER THEY HAVE A GODDAMN SWORD OR NOT​

View attachment 267410
You may not like it but this is what peak performance looks like. No, I do not take criticism, disapproval, or dissenting opinions.

This pass. I like it.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

You lost me when you called Toad a B-tier character. The only characters on the roster more iconic than Toad are Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser and Pac-Man.

I’d say
are either above him or at least on the same level.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I’d say
are either above him or at least on the same level.

Nah, Pikachu sure, missed him, but the rest are at most on par.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I’d say
are either above him or at least on the same level.

I'd definitely agree with Pikachu, Sonic, DK, Yoshi, and maybe Charizard. Link might be about the same. A lot of people know about Link but don't know if a character is or isn't him. I've met multiple people who thought my Marth amiibo was Link. Wario and Mewtwo aren't going to be known by people who aren't gamers or parents of 90s kids.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Deep in our hearts, we all know there's really only one metric that determines the value of a first party character:

WHETHER THEY HAVE A GODDAMN SWORD OR NOT​

View attachment 267410
You may not like it but this is what peak performance looks like. No, I do not take criticism, disapproval, or dissenting opinions.

I’d be hyped for Lyn but I doubt a lot of people would embrace the 9th FE character.

Aldo, I’m pretty sure quiet a lot of people would love Adult Isaac.

I'd definitely agree with Pikachu, Sonic, DK, Yoshi, and maybe Charizard. Link might be about the same. A lot of people know about Link but don't know if a character is or isn't him. I've met multiple people who thought my Marth amiibo was Link. Wario and Mewtwo aren't going to be known by people who aren't gamers or parents of 90s kids.

Mewtwo has a starring role in a pretty big anime movie though.

 

[SNEKeater]

I haven’t even played ARMS yet (demo is downloading) and I’m excited for a character from that series.

I just love everything about it! ... except the price.
But I’ll finally get a little taste of it.

I’ve seen a lot of indifferent to negative reactions from my friends though. Has that been the case all around as well?

Yeah, Nintendo could learn a thing or two from literally all the other publishers when it comes to discounts and lowering the price of their games.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

One thing nobody has pointed out (I think): for the first season pass Nintendo had a couple of years to go around negotiating for characters, since the game started planning in 2015 and entered development at some point in 2016. Sakurai singled out ARMS as a game that was considered for the base roster but ultimately didn't make it, which to me is proof that season 2 wasn't something initially planned. Because of this, season 2 must have been much more hastily assembled, in a few months at most. This isn't necessarily proof of anything, but the bar for who gets to be DLC could have been lowered* to complete another full season as quickly as possible.

*With this I mean that business, partnerships, complex decisions, etc, might have not been a big part of the equation this time. Not an indictment of the character themselves.

I don't think there's much evidence to this, nor is there any reason to assume that they wouldn't have had the ability to start planning and developing Fighter's Pass Volume 2 further back anyway. The only DLC character we really know about as being in development for a long time was Hero based upon the coverage of getting Dragon Quest in Smash, and while Banjo & Kazooie was rooted in a budding relationship with Microsoft, he wasn't officially negotiated on until 2018 from what we know. Different characters would just require different amounts of work to realize and negotiate, sure, but they could have started stuff in 2018 for Volume 2 or started drawing up plans whenever really. There's absolutely no reason to think "Volume 2 was hastily assembled."

Just because you don't know if you're going to do a Volume 2, doesn't mean you don't start considering and planning for the possibility of it. In fact, it would be far more irresponsible as a company with a product that you intend to expand on to not at least lay some of that groundwork and start thinking about the future. Not to mention, if they're starting off with a first party character, that also gives them more time to work through all of the details on future characters anyway if need be.

Nah, Pikachu sure, missed him, but the rest are at most on par.

People can recognize Toad, but not really care about him. Until Captain Toad/3D World, he's mostly known as a race of characters that just exists in Mario. He's Piranha Plant levels of recognizable, but not really that beloved (I know some people care more, but Toad isn't some uber popular character people are itching for in Smash either despite knowing he exists). He's only just become an A-lister in the sense he finally got his own games... but like, recognizable isn't enough to make you an A-list character. Like Charizard, Sonic, and several others were absolutely at the forefront of marketing of titles and led them in major ways (Charizard is easily Pokemon's #2 and continues to be one of the most popular fictional "characters" in existence). Toad mostly just showed up in spin-offs and NPC roles until the Wii U era.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...Mewtwo [isn't] going to be known by people who aren't gamers or parents of 90s kids.

I kind of doubt that after its role in Detective Pikachu.

 

[Krankees]

Glad I kept my ARMS save data even though not much was accomplished on it. But the fact that ARMS is still $60 really sucks and it's turning me away from getting fully invested again.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I'd definitely agree with Pikachu, Sonic, DK, Yoshi, and maybe Charizard. Link might be about the same. A lot of people know about Link but don't know if a character is or isn't him. I've met multiple people who thought my Marth amiibo was Link. Wario and Mewtwo aren't going to be known by people who aren't gamers or parents of 90s kids.

You seriously underestimate how huge Gen 1 of Pokemon was as a cultural phenomenon and how specifically the first movie that released for the Pokemon anime was based around Mewtwo. Squirtle, Charizard, and Mewtwo all owe a huge part of the public's general understanding of them to the anime's massive success and like, kids who got into Pokemon after the initial craze traditionally would still like see those original movies and such too.

 

[Aurane]

To everyone who voted for Helix, I give you a healing ball of healing. You are worth healing. Be healed.

 

[Ben Holt]

I've been so preoccupied thinking who the ARMS character will be that I totally forgot that ARMS MUSIC IS CONFIRMED!!!

OH WHOA-OH OH-OH OH-OOOOOH-WHOA!!!

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I've been so preoccupied thinking who the ARMS character will be that I totally forgot that ARMS MUSIC IS CONFIRMED!!!

OH WHOA-OH OH-OH OH-OOOOOH-WHOA!!!

there was no ARMS music in base despite Spring Man being an AT, so I think that worked out in ARMS's favor

Xenoblade 2 has music but Xenoblade X doesn't, which makes me think we could also see Elma in this pass instead of Rex