• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

3BitSaurus

Smash Master
Joined
May 6, 2019
Messages
4,298
Location
Nowhere (no, not the Islands)
That just gets to be diminishing returns at a certain point though. Like, I ****ing love Chibi Robo and would love to see him in Smash, but I can assure you that his fan base is stupid small and there's no real incentive for Nintendo to invest in making him a playable character in Smash at this point. His series is dead and went through multiple games along that path with only one ever being a relatively minor success (not even that, but it was critically enjoyed and became a cult classic). And at this point, there's very little of Nintendo's catalogue to introduce you because Spirits, Assist Trophies, and other forms of content have already made those introductions to you and potentially piqued your interest in some of those franchises/titles.

Smaller characters have the potential to make certain segments of the Smash player population happy, but some of those more obscure or less important options just don't really provide as much from a utilitarian perspective of satisfying as many people as possible while achieving your intended goals as a company for specific franchises and characters. Like I guarantee you that there is no first party character that will bring about the same reactions that Ridley, King K. Rool, and Banjo & Kazooie did at this point. Isaac and Waluigi might get close, but they're also very much the last of old guard of massively requested fighters that generally managed to form massive communities around the idea of getting them into Smash and we're getting so far into Nintendo's catalogue of characters that you're just not even going to see the same fan return on a lot of IPs. Sure, new characters can become popular and that doesn't mean there isn't value in pursuing more obscure characters from time to time, but I think Smash's capacity to be that kind of game that introduces more obscure has kind of reached its peak as an entity.

Like it may make you happy and several of the people passionate and crazy enough to talking about Smash for hours on end on a website dedicated to it, but Smash has been sold to nearly 20 million people at this point and that's a lot of voices to keep in mind, and whatever decisions are made also have to generally align with Nintendo's outlook and decision making too.
On the contrary - I'd argue that what has almost peaked is the capacity for Smash to expand its audience. It's already the biggest fighting game series out there and Ultimate is the best selling FG of all time. When it comes to representing more of the gaming sphere, the only places Smash hasn't really gone to are a PC rep, a Sony rep and a mobile game rep... and that's about it.

Some of my most wanted characters include Sora, Crash and Phoenix Wright, but I'm not going to pretend that any of them would suddenly make an entire fanbase buy Smash - because chances are they already have. And if only "the biggest characters that could expand the crossover the most" could get in... we'd have to say bye bye to about 70% of this roster, really. And Ultimate would have been a way worse game for it.

I'd also argue that there is a big difference between someone like Chibi Robo and Waluigi or Toad. But that's another can of worms entirely.
 
Last edited:

Mushroomguy12

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
9,792
Location
Nintendo Land Theme Parks, Incorporated
The issue is that's the only game she ever headlined in, and after she was specifically introduced as a sidekick in DKC2, which was already specifically giving the sidekick of DKC1 the headlining position. It kind of does put her significantly down the totem poll, and like the DK side characters aside from Diddy Kong have been sort of in a state of limbo since.

I agree, she's basically with like Toad and Bandanna Dee in the "B-tier of characters with notable playable roles, but behind the existing characters in Smash by a wide margin." But I understand why people wouldn't exactly jump to her as a super important Nintendo character.
The only game she's ever headlined in that sold 3.5 million copies.
 

Rie Sonomura

fly octo fly
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
19,720
NNID
RieSonomura
Switch FC
SW-4976-7649-4666
my votes:

If solo character (no echoes, no Koopaling/hero thing going on): Twintelle or Dr. Coyle
If the Echoes for FPV2 theory holds up: Min Min (Ninjara ε)
 

SMAASH! Puppy

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 13, 2015
Messages
13,350
Location
Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
Ummm.... couldn't agree less. The main heroine of the DKC games that starred in her own (main series) game and a recurring Zelda character with story importance (to the point where she saved Zelda's life multiple times in the series)? I'd say both of them are B list characters at minimum.
I probably still view the Donkey Kong series to be less popular (in a vacuum) than it actually is, so I'll concede on that until I have more information.

Impa, however, is not that important to her series. She's had one major appearance, and the rest are either only in the manual, as one of the many McGuffins, or as a beginning town NPC.
 

True Blue Warrior

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 4, 2013
Messages
9,727
Location
United Kingdom
NNID
TrueBlueSM
3DS FC
2036-7619-4276
I remember when someone unironically tried to argue Waluigi would be seen as less hype than 2B, Dante and Zero among the general gaming community.
 
Last edited:

Mushroomguy12

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
9,792
Location
Nintendo Land Theme Parks, Incorporated
I probably still view the Donkey Kong series to be less popular (in a vacuum) than it actually is, so I'll concede on that until I have more information.

Impa, however, is not that important to her series. She's had one major appearance, and the rest are either only in the manual, as one of the many McGuffins, or as a beginning town NPC.
Neither of them are significantly less important than a third of the Nintendo characters already in the game.
 
Last edited:

Trevenant

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 24, 2020
Messages
1,166
Been seeing quite a lot of people jump onto the same bandwagon that they did with Byleth for ARMS character which is it was pushed back but for different reasons (this time it’s seemingly because of coronavirus?!). I don’t wanna be burned for missing something but I really doubt it.
 

HansShotFirst20

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 3, 2018
Messages
615
Location
Bochum, Germany
NNID
HanShot1st
They're still selling Tropical Freeze on Switch for $60.

And Hyrule Warriors, like it or not, was the only non port Zelda title we had for 90% of the Wii U's lifespan, so it is more significant than most spin offs (which they are also selling on Switch for $60).
This is Nintendo, they're probably selling Smash Wii U for $60.
 

DarthEnderX

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
8,411
I'll just post this again.
But...that's not the question they asked. They didn't ask if there where other low-tier characters in Smash, they asked if there were any non-low-tier characters NOT in Smash.

All of the high tier Nintendo characters are already playable.
I'm aware. That's why I often say that I'd much rather have iconic 3rd party characters over Nintendo D-listers.
 
Last edited:

Mushroomguy12

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
9,792
Location
Nintendo Land Theme Parks, Incorporated
But...that's not the question they asked. They didn't ask if there where other low-tier characters in Smash, they asked if there were any non-low-tier characters NOT in Smash.
They certainly aren't low tier though. I said already that they are mid tier at minimum, I personally think their mid high tier.
 
Last edited:

SMAASH! Puppy

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 13, 2015
Messages
13,350
Location
Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
My picks were Spring Man and Ribbon Girl because they really should be here to properly represent their series, Dr. Coyle because I think her playstyle would be so much fun in Super Smash Bros., and Lola Pop because her playstyle sooooo much fun, and would probably be just as fun in Super Smash Bros.

I'd also argue that there is a big difference between someone like Chibi Robo and Waluigi or Toad. But that's another can of worms entirely.
Not really. It's pretty easy to see that the huge difference between these characters is that one of them doesn't have a future.

*cries* Chibi-Robo deserved so much better!

Neither of them are significantly less important than a third of the Nintendo characters already in the game.
Perhaps not but that doesn't make them high tier characters. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't make them bad characters or editions to Super Smash Bros. (in fact, I think Impa should totally join), they're just not important within the general gaming landscape.
 
Last edited:

DarthEnderX

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
8,411
I am VERY much in favor of the idea of Spring Man, with Ribbon Girl as an Echo. And Spring Man's AT is replaced with Springtron.
 

EricTheGamerman

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
3,197
On the contrary - I'd argue that what has almost peaked is the capacity for Smash to expand its audience. It's already the biggest fighting game series out there and Ultimate is the best selling FG of all time. When it comes to representing more of the gaming sphere, the only places Smash hasn't really gone to are a PC rep, a Sony rep and a mobile game rep... and that's about it.

Some of my most wanted characters include Sora, Crash and Phoenix Wright, but I'm not going to pretend that any of them would suddenly make an entire fanbase buy Smash - because chances are they already have. And if only "the biggest characters that could expand the crossover the most" could get in... we'd have to say bye bye to about 70% of this roster, really. And Ultimate would have been a way worse game for it.

I'd also argue that there is a big difference between someone like Chibi Robo and Waluigi or Toad. But that's another can of worms entirely.
Nah, we haven't even touched Western gaming in the slightest, so there's a massive amount of room to cover there and Japan is far from tapped in terms of its biggest and most successful IPs. There are so many genres that haven't been touched or just barely investigated from a Smash perspective like Puzzle games, Horror games, First Person Shooters, Visual Novels, etc. Incredibly popular genres and franchises across gaming, so we're nowhere near the capacity of popular IPs across all of gaming.

What we are near, however, is Nintendo's current capacity for more wide reaching IPs that they are actively interested in promoting and developing. Series like Advance Wars, Sin and Punishment, Golden Sun, Chibi Robo, and Rhythm Heaven are all respectable series, but only one of those has had a recent entry and isn't very much dead right now in Nintendo's world of IPs and only one provides us with a fan favorite that would really push those headlines and satisfy such a large swath of people. It's the issue of diminishing returns as I've always said with most of Nintendo's IPs, and especially in regards to the 4th most popular character in a smaller series already in Smash. Now, how does Nintendo get around that? Make new characters that become more widely popular or popularize existing characters.

We already see that reality with Ring Fit Adventure being one of Nintendo's biggest surprise successes of the entire Switch generation. We've seen ARMS be an IP that they've clearly decided to continue investing in and push to Smash. Splatoon was a massive hit that practically begged to be in Smash. They've basically willed Bandanna Dee into being a popular character by making him the 4th "main character" in Kirby in recent years. First parties can still absolutely be draws to Smash, but they have to be characters that are either sufficiently popular with large swaths of the fan base or characters that Nintendo is interested in pushing and actively developing for. And that's where we're reaching the "limits of Smash." There are still additional characters you can from existing franchises and there are series not yet in Smash. But, we're already seeing diminishing returns on requested fighters I think just based upon how only a couple of character specific fandoms have been able to compare to the titans of the past and newer fan requests seem to struggle more to get people on board and/or organzied. And we've been exhausting the characters Nintendo is interested in pushing and funding as IPs too. It's been 20 years since Waluigi debuted and he's never been pushed in anything beyond spin-offs. Golden Sun hasn't been back in a decade after a failed attempt at a revival and the company that makes it arguably does loads more making Mario spin-offs ironically for Nintendo.

I'm not saying limit Smash to only "the top of the top" or the "best of the best", but with new characters to develop interest in the game or retain larger portions of the player base across years of DLC, I think you do need to do more than just pick the hidden gems of Nintendo's extensive character library. When Nintendo is picking characters, they have to have some incentive to do so, and that can be pleasing fans to personal biases for characters and franchises to simply promoting or working on a brand. But if a character doesn't have that? I think you're going to see much more up hill battles for them as playable in Smash. Sakurai himself has the potential to make other decisions, but he's also not going to go all in on more and more obscure picks either. Smash is still a product of advertisement in many ways, and it's important to remember that.
 

HansShotFirst20

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 3, 2018
Messages
615
Location
Bochum, Germany
NNID
HanShot1st
Picked Springman, Ribbon Girl, Min-Min, and Max Brass.

Springman because Ryu
Ribbon Girl because Chun-Li
Min-Min because Waifu
Max Brass because he's my actual favorite

Also these 4 could concievably all be alts of the same character.
 

MrElectroG64

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
459
Location
PNF-404
I can put one up there, though I'm not sure who the best/most likely choices are.
If you do, do you think you could make it so that you can vote for multiple characters in one submission? I ask this because there is a high likelihood that multiple will be added at once, but WHO the group will consist of is a question in itself.

EDIT: whoops, didn't even notice the exact poll I was asking for was already made lol. Carry on...
 
Last edited:

SNEKeater

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
3,375
I remember when someone unironically tried to argue Waluigi would be seen as less hype than 2B, Dante and Zero among the general gaming community.
I mean... if you're talking about the general gaming community, then I pretty much agree with that lol. The regular folk who isn't into Smash would see Waluigi and say "oh, after all the memes he finally got in, cool" at best.

If we talk about the Nintendo/Smash fanbase, then yeah, Waluigi would make a bigger buzz. Outside of that bubble? I really doubt it.
 
Last edited:

SMAASH! Puppy

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 13, 2015
Messages
13,350
Location
Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
First parties can still absolutely be draws to Smash, but they have to be characters that are either sufficiently popular with large swaths of the fan base or characters that Nintendo is interested in pushing and actively developing for.
So here's how Chibi-Robo can still win...

Honestly though, I would love it if Super Smash Bros. started trying to help revive older series that have been done dirty.

If you do, do you think you could make it so that you can vote for multiple characters in one submission? I ask this because there is a high likelihood that multiple will be added at once, but WHO the group will consist of is a question in itself.
It's already up. Everyone's there, and you can vote for 4 characters.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Flap and Swish~
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
34,385
Location
Cull Hazard
NNID
Irene4
3DS FC
1203-9265-8784
Switch FC
SW-7567-8572-3791
Oh, yeah, gotta download the full game demo~

Anyway, my picks up top were Spring Man(though I have a feeling it's an alt thing, but he's the obvious face either way), Ribbon Girl, Dr. Coyle, and Springtron. They're all close enough(or clones anyway) to the right proportions I could see it working. Incidentally 2 boys 2 girls. I don't know if we could get an odd number of recolors like Joker did, but he also didn't have a completely different character alt like Hero, so who knows.
 

True Blue Warrior

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 4, 2013
Messages
9,727
Location
United Kingdom
NNID
TrueBlueSM
3DS FC
2036-7619-4276
I mean... if you're talking about the general gaming community, then I pretty much agree with that lol. The regular folk who isn't into Smash would see Waluigi and say "oh, after all the memes he finally got in, cool" at best.

If we talk about the Nintendo/Smash fanbase, then yeah, Waluigi would make a bigger buzz. Outside of that bubble? I really doubt it.
Waluigi’s exclusion from Smash Ultimate was the only one that was enough of a big meme that even the Washington Post made an article about it. It went far beyond the Smash Bubble.


The announcement disappointed fans of Waluigi, who shared their negative reactions on websites such as Twitter. That day, Twitter[39] user @Genji****mada tweeted a picture of a Waluigi doll lying dirty on the ground with the Smash Bros reveal tagline "Everyone Is Here." The post (shown below, left) received more than 34,000 retweets and 87,000 likes in 24 hours.
Twitter[40] user @sir_stride posted a variation of the Try Not To Cry meme featuring Waluigi with the caption "Waluigi is still an assist trophy #NintendoE3." The post (shown below, center) received more than 2,000 retweets and 6,000 likes in 24 hours. Throughout the day, people continued to post variations on the theme of Waluigi being left out (example below, right)
Several media outlets covered the reaction, including Polygon, [42] Mashable] and more. Twitter[44] published a Moments page about the reaction.
That day, The Washington Post[41] published an opinion piece entitled "Waluigi was robbed and humiliated by Nintendo, and his fans are furious." In the piece, author Gene Park writes, "It gets worse. Suddenly, 17 minutes into the presentation, Waluigi makes an appearance. And it is yet another affront to decency. Waluigi is a mere “assist” character. Assist trophies are basically soulless effigies of other characters that players can pick up, bringing the depicted creature to life for mere seconds. They’re golems."
Being a recurring playable character in bigger games than 2B, Dante and Zero ever were in gives him a wider appeal overall. Maybe I shouldn’t have used the term “gaming community” as much as wider audience overall due to semantic missteps (that was my fault for that), but my core point remains, someone argued these characters would bring more hype than Waluigi despite that obviously not being the case.
 
Last edited:

MagnesD3

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2012
Messages
4,850
Location
Hiding in Microsoft Headquarters
You all talking about 1st parties not exciting people anymore that much I feel should turn to the Zelda franchise, I really think there are a ton of characters there that would cause waves and deserve to be there ex. Demise with Ghirahim as a switchable stand, Midna with Wolf Link, Skull Kid with his masks, OG pig Ganon with Trident, Impa, The 4 champions together in a character with BotW Zelda at the helm or something like that.
 
Last edited:

CapitaineCrash

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 30, 2018
Messages
2,908
Location
Canada, Québec
So here's how Chibi-Robo can still win...

Honestly though, I would love it if Super Smash Bros. started trying to help revive older series that have been done dirty.
This is exactly what I wanted for Rhythm heaven. Rhythm heaven sold relatively poorly in comparaison to other Nintendo franchise. Sure I'm not expecting the franchise to be on Mario/Pokémon/Zelda level, but maybe with a Smash boost, the franchise could have grown bigger than what it is now (if it even still exist). It worked with Fire emblem back in melee and with Xenoblade with Smash 4, I'm sure some smaller franchise like Rhythm heaven, Chibi robo, Golden sun or even Style savvy could get a huge boost sales if they saw more content in Smash.
 
Last edited:

True Blue Warrior

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 4, 2013
Messages
9,727
Location
United Kingdom
NNID
TrueBlueSM
3DS FC
2036-7619-4276
Isn't that because people vastly misunderstood the phrase "Everyone is Here"? (possibly combined with Daisy getting in)
That is part of the reason, if you search Youtube reactions to Waluigi getting AT’d, some of them thought Waluigi has to be in because Daisy was in.
 
Last edited:

Idon

Smash Legend
Joined
May 24, 2018
Messages
17,725
Location
Waxing Moon Ritual
NNID
Miyamoto Iori
Switch FC
SW-4826-9581-3305
Why are you people discussing Smash characters probability based on the notoriety a character has?
thats not how it works inkling.jpg
With the last 2 characters revealed, it's pretty clear to see that Nintendo has their own ideas about what to push for this DLC, and the amount of memes a character absence has likely doesn't factor into that. At best characters like that would be a mental note for Nintendo/Sakurai's base roster going into Smash 6, similar to how Ridley and K Rool had their popularity recognized, but didn't show up until the next iteration.

Personally, I feel like picking Waluigi would be a very personal pick made specifically to appease the fans. Unlike Byleth who pushes his new game, or an ARMS character which pushes their entire new franchise, both sound business decisions, Waluigi feels like he'd appeal to people who are already avid fans of Mario, already bought smash, and most likely already bought both DLC passes.
 

TriggerX

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
524
That is part of the reason, if you search Youtube reactions to Waluigi getting AT’d, some of them thought Waluigi has to be in because Daisy was in.
So weird that people would think if Daisy is in , so is Waluigi. I mean echoes/clones are made faster because of how their model, animations, and hitboxes can pretty much be "copy and pasted" from an already existing character. The work involved turning Daisy to a complete character was very minimal overall.

Waluigi doesnt necessarily have a good character to even base from since his anatomy is a tad different from most characters on the roster. This means that more adjustments would have to be made than say a combination of Megaman/Protoman or Sonic/Shadow.

Even if you were to use the rig from luigis model, due to the proportions of Waluigi you'd most likely have to adjust it to prevent collisions with other parts in the model. Then adjust all the hitboxes for his entire moveset. Eventually it gets to the point where you might have well just started from scratch.
 
Last edited:

Guybrush20X6

Creator of Lego Theory
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
15,882
NNID
Guybrush20X6
3DS FC
4253-3477-4804
Switch FC
SW-2140-7758-3904
I've made support threads for Ribbon Girl, Lola Pop and Dr. Coyle, links to which are in my signature.

I guess the lack of anything to do in virus times is putting my energy in weird places.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
TFW You work so hard to have stellar attendance in modern Kirby games that you’ve basically become the 4th main character at this point but people treat you as a c-tier character or lower all because you’re a first party:
 

Mushroomguy12

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
9,792
Location
Nintendo Land Theme Parks, Incorporated
I've made support threads for Ribbon Girl, Lola Pop and Dr. Coyle, links to which are in my signature.

I guess the lack of anything to do in virus times is putting my energy in weird places.
Cool, add me to all of those support lists. I'd ask to be added to Spring Man's as well, but it seems like the guy in charge of that thread hasn't been seen for 6 months (and hasn't posted since December 2018). Maybe if you're interested you could take charge of that one? (Although I have no idea how that works).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom