Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Goombaic]

Got creativity juices flowing, here's a Dart Monkey fighter pack for ****s and giggles.

Spoiler: This break's going to be too long, man.

The classic mode was the only reason I bothered making this a full thing.

 

[Cosmic77]

Since we're talking about comparing the importance of Nintendo's franchises, I want to use this opportunity to remind everybody that some of our beloved Nintendo icons are not completely owned by Nintendo themselves.

The Pokemon ip is owned by The Pokemon Company, which is a joint venture between Nintendo, Gamefreak, and Creatures inc. Nintendo is a partial owner of the Pokemon ip, it does not develop the games and does not even publish the Pokemon games in Japan itself, only does so in overseas territories.

The Kirby ip is co-owned by Nintendo and HAL Labrotory through a joint venture called Warpstar inc.

Nintendo themselves do own the trademarks to all the Pokemon and Kirby characters/game titles though. Every Pokemon from Abra to Zygarde is officially a Nintendo character.

Game Freak could easily break off from Nintendo and start their own Pokemon franchise with identical mechanics, but it would have to be under a new name with completely new creatures.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Nintendo themselves do own the trademarks to all the Pokemon and Kirby characters/game titles though. Every Pokemon from Abra to Zygarde is officially a Nintendo character.

Game Freak could easily break off from Nintendo and start their own Pokemon franchise with identical mechanics, but it would have to be under a new name with completely new creatures.

They could easily do the latter. Each generation basically has a whole new set of Pokémon anyway, and it's the core mechanics that truly appeal to the hardcore fans. I mean, it also happened with Fire Emblem and Tearwick Saga (sp?).

 

[Garteam]

1. Marth & Roy are still clones of each other. They share the same animation, majority of their attacks are the same, the only real difference is that Marth does extra damage on the tip while Roy does extra damage closer up. And when I reference echoes I'm talking about Lucina & Chrom, so you have 4 character that play extremely similar to one character. Lucario is still way more different when compare to Mewtwo, it was clear Lucario was to replace Mewtwo but there was still variety.
2. Fire Emblem success has only just started a couple of years ago, it was only thriving in Japan and it was doing so bad that Awakening was going to be the last game due to the state of the series. Meanwhile Kirby was a success in the beginning, it has out done Fire Emblem way longer. In fact if you compare all their sale all together Kirby is out performing Fire Emblem. Fire Emblem is certainly back up to being successful instead of dying, but there still other series that are bigger than FE. Hell, Splatoon is bigger than FE seeing how both Splatoon games outsold every FE game.
View attachment 265737

This is ignoring the massive success that Fire Emblem: Heroes has been. It's eclipsed basically every other game that has put on mobile, which is especially impressive when it's competing with the brand awareness of series like Mario and Animal Crossing.

While Fire Emblem's games may not have sold as well as series like Kirby in the past, the revenue that Heroes brings in alone is likely more than enough to catch the attention of Nintendo's business side.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

1. Marth & Roy are still clones of each other. They share the same animation, majority of their attacks are the same, the only real difference is that Marth does extra damage on the tip while Roy does extra damage closer up. And when I reference echoes I'm talking about Lucina & Chrom, so you have 4 character that play extremely similar to one character. Lucario is still way more different when compare to Mewtwo, it was clear Lucario was to replace Mewtwo but there was still variety.
2. Fire Emblem success has only just started a couple of years ago, it was only thriving in Japan and it was doing so bad that Awakening was going to be the last game due to the state of the series. Meanwhile Kirby was a success in the beginning, it has out done Fire Emblem way longer. In fact if you compare all their sale all together Kirby is out performing Fire Emblem. Fire Emblem is certainly back up to being successful instead of dying, but there still other series that are bigger than FE. Hell, Splatoon is bigger than FE seeing how both Splatoon games outsold every FE game.
View attachment 265737

I'm sure those sales numbers are 100% accurate.

 

[Diddy Kong]

1. Marth & Roy are still clones of each other. They share the same animation, majority of their attacks are the same, the only real difference is that Marth does extra damage on the tip while Roy does extra damage closer up. And when I reference echoes I'm talking about Lucina & Chrom, so you have 4 character that play extremely similar to one character. Lucario is still way more different when compare to Mewtwo, it was clear Lucario was to replace Mewtwo but there was still variety.
2. Fire Emblem success has only just started a couple of years ago, it was only thriving in Japan and it was doing so bad that Awakening was going to be the last game due to the state of the series. Meanwhile Kirby was a success in the beginning, it has out done Fire Emblem way longer. In fact if you compare all their sale all together Kirby is out performing Fire Emblem. Fire Emblem is certainly back up to being successful instead of dying, but there still other series that are bigger than FE. Hell, Splatoon is bigger than FE seeing how both Splatoon games outsold every FE game.
View attachment 265737

Thank you, this was much needed. Everyone seemed to forget about Donkey Kong being a Top 5 Nintendo franchise. Which is amazing, cause, you know, there's no games coming out and all... But that just goes to show.

I also think this is a good chance to yet again complain about the lack of new Donkey Kong games.

So whoever reads this from Nintendo, push for more Donkey Kong games.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Thank you, this was much needed. Everyone seemed to forget about Donkey Kong being a Top 5 Nintendo franchise. Which is amazing, cause, you know, there's no games coming out and all... But that just goes to show.

I also think this is a good chance to yet again complain about the lack of new Donkey Kong games.

So whoever reads this from Nintendo, push for more Donkey Kong games.

It has all the trappings of one on paper but it doesn't seem to get that much attention in practice. More games would probably help quite a bit in this regard. A game that's basically Donkey Kong 64 crossed with Super Mario Odyssey would get all of my yes.

 

[DarthEnderX]

This is ignoring the massive success that Fire Emblem: Heroes has been.

Which is the correct thing to do.

 

[Cosmic77]

This is ignoring the massive success that Fire Emblem: Heroes has been. It's eclipsed basically every other game that has put on mobile, which is especially impressive when it's competing with the brand awareness of series like Mario and Animal Crossing.

While Fire Emblem's games may not have sold as well as series like Kirby in the past, the revenue that Heroes brings in alone is likely more than enough to catch the attention of Nintendo's business side.

I do think people tend to rely on Heroes too much when making a case for FE's success. Admittedly, it's the only instance where FE has made an enormous profit for Nintendo, and that's largely because it has a lot of dedicated players who continue to spend money on it.

I don't know if they can reliably replicate that success when Heroes finally dies down. If they can't, then we'll have to go back to judging the series mainly by its console games. The good news is that it's been on an upward trend since Awakening, but it would have to double the sales of 3H (6-7 million) before it would be up to par with stuff like Animal Crossing, Smash, or Splatoon.

FE is successful, but I don't think it's gotten to the point where a notable number of people would buy a console just to play it. I don't think it's really proven itself to raise hardware sales.

 

[cosmicB]

1. Marth & Roy are still clones of each other. They share the same animation, majority of their attacks are the same, the only real difference is that Marth does extra damage on the tip while Roy does extra damage closer up. And when I reference echoes I'm talking about Lucina & Chrom, so you have 4 character that play extremely similar to one character. Lucario is still way more different when compare to Mewtwo, it was clear Lucario was to replace Mewtwo but there was still variety.

Marth and Roy are more different than they've ever been. Their movesets are similar, but if you try to play one like the other, you're going to get destroyed in the same way if you tried to play Luigi like Mario. Their weight, kill confirms, general strategies, etc are wildly different.

There's a reason Roy has his own echo now in Chrom while Marth's is only Lucina.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Me at the people refusing to stop letting FE live in their heads rent free

 

[chocolatejr9]

They could easily do the latter. Each generation basically has a whole new set of Pokémon anyway, and it's the core mechanics that truly appeal to the hardcore fans. I mean, it also happened with Fire Emblem and Tearwick Saga (sp?).

First, a quick correction: it was called TearRing Saga, not Tearwick Saga (I think that's something else). Secondly, didn't Nintendo sue those guys for making a not-Fire Emblem game? Because that game was basically Fire Emblem in every way except name.

Not that it matters, that series died a LONG time ago, and I don't even know who owns it.

 

[Deleted member]

I have no interest in Fire Emblem but I'm not going to complain about how many characters it has in Smash.

....However, I do hope it’s not the only "already represented series" to get a DLC character and that they give a pack to a series that’s a bit lacking in the character department( preferably Kirby ).

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

First, a quick correction: it was called TearRing Saga, not Tearwick Saga (I think that's something else). Secondly, didn't Nintendo sue those guys for making a not-Fire Emblem game? Because that game was basically Fire Emblem in every way except name.

Not that it matters, that series died a LONG time ago, and I don't even know who owns it.

"I'm not Marth, i'm my own original character, Runan!"

TearRing is owned by Enterbrain, best known as the developers of RPG maker

 

[chocolatejr9]

"I'm not Marth, i'm my own original character, Runan!"

TearRing is owned by Enterbrain, best known as the developers of RPG maker

Original von Character of the "Do Not Steal" House.

Say, aside from RPG Maker, what else has Enterbrain done?

 

[HansShotFirst20]

hmmm.

Hot take.

This is the only newcomer speculation thread where actual discussion can happen.
On all the mono-character threads, you get flamed/dismissed/reported for not overtly supporting their character, leading to those threads becoming 'bubbles' where everyone there is 100% certain their character is getting in, as the only type of discussion allowed is 'why this character has a chance'.

On this thread, however, each person has their own favorites to get in -- and when you claim they have a chance, you have to actually make your claim stand on its own two feet, and you are conversely allowed to argue why certain characters may not have a chance.

Anyone else agree?

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Original von Character of the "Do Not Steal" House.

Say, aside from RPG Maker, what else has Enterbrain done?

Not much tbh, I don't think any of their video games have ever come out in Japan besides their game makers. They also make Japanese table top games and some magazines

 

[Cutie Gwen]

hmmm.

Hot take.

This is the only newcomer speculation thread where actual discussion can happen.
On all the mono-character threads, you get flamed/dismissed/reported for not overtly supporting their character, leading to those threads becoming 'bubbles' where everyone there is 100% certain their character is getting in, as the only type of discussion allowed is 'why this character has a chance'.

On this thread, however, each person has their own favorites to get in -- and when you claim they have a chance, you have to actually make your claim stand on its own two feet, and you are conversely allowed to argue why certain characters may not have a chance.

Anyone else agree?

Yes, because the entire point of a character support thread is to talk about that character, it'd be off topic to discuss idk, 2B potentially being in Smash in the Doomslayer thread, unless there's a link somehow, it's offtopic

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

People love to ignore the legacy of Fire Emblem when it comes to arguing that there's too much FE too.

"Oh, Mario deserves more characters because it saved Video Games!"

"Oh, Pokemon deserves more characters because it made portable gaming mainstream!"

"Oh, Fire Emblem was the first Strategy RPG ever and made leaps and bounds for storytelling within video games that blazed the trail for narrative lead video games and Strategy games to this very day? GET THAT ****ING WEABOO ANIME TRASH OUTTA MY SMESH BRUDDAS!"

In all seriousness though, it is what it is, there are a lot of Fire Emblem characters in the game. ******** about it ain't gonna change that.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

1. Marth & Roy are still clones of each other. They share the same animation, majority of their attacks are the same, the only real difference is that Marth does extra damage on the tip while Roy does extra damage closer up. And when I reference echoes I'm talking about Lucina & Chrom, so you have 4 character that play extremely similar to one character. Lucario is still way more different when compare to Mewtwo, it was clear Lucario was to replace Mewtwo but there was still variety.

 

[HansShotFirst20]

Yes, because the entire point of a character support thread is to talk about that character, it'd be off topic to discuss idk, 2B potentially being in Smash in the Doomslayer thread, unless there's a link somehow, it's offtopic

Not exactly my point -- you can't go to the Doomguy thread and say '2B for smash', but you also can't go to the Doomguy thread and say 'sorry boys, I want Doomguy but that interview sorta deconfirms him'.

I get that they're titled 'support threads', but then the point boils down to making a Spirit Bomb out of all the replies.

 

[wynn728]

I'm sure those sales numbers are 100% accurate.

You get what you can work with. It's not like current sales figures are readily available for every single game in existence.

This is ignoring the massive success that Fire Emblem: Heroes has been. It's eclipsed basically every other game that has put on mobile, which is especially impressive when it's competing with the brand awareness of series like Mario and Animal Crossing.

While Fire Emblem's games may not have sold as well as series like Kirby in the past, the revenue that Heroes brings in alone is likely more than enough to catch the attention of Nintendo's business side.

When it comes to Gacha games they're on a league of their own in terms of sales when it comes to the structure of their mechanics. Like you don't need that many players to make a Gacha game successful, you just need to a certain type of person who is really invested in those types of games. That's not to undermine the success that Heroes found itself at, but there are clear differences to mobile Gacha game success to console game success. Though because of Heroes' success makes me 100% certain that someone from that game is going to be put in Fighters Pass Vol 2.

 

[Arcanir]

First, a quick correction: it was called TearRing Saga, not Tearwick Saga (I think that's something else). Secondly, didn't Nintendo sue those guys for making a not-Fire Emblem game? Because that game was basically Fire Emblem in every way except name.

Not that it matters, that series died a LONG time ago, and I don't even know who owns it.

They were definitely similar, the game was at one point called "Emblem Saga", the protagonist (as mentioned before) at one point looked very similar to Marth, and there were other callbacks and similarities that made the connection between the two franchises very notable. Some of them were changed before release to avoid a lawsuit, but it didn't work and Nintendo still sued. They won and were allowed to keep the game on shelves, but lost the appeal and since the franchise had downplayed the similarities even further to avoid Nintendo's wrath.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

People love to ignore the legacy of Fire Emblem when it comes to arguing that there's too much FE too.

"Oh, Mario deserves more characters because it saved Video Games!"

"Oh, Pokemon deserves more characters because it made portable gaming mainstream!"

"Oh, Fire Emblem was the first Strategy RPG ever and made leaps and bounds for storytelling within video games that blazed the trail for narrative lead video games and Strategy games to this very day? GET THAT ****ING WEABOO ANIME TRASH OUTTA MY SMESH BRUDDAS!"

In all seriousness though, it is what it is, there are a lot of Fire Emblem characters in the game. ******** about it ain't gonna change that.

You think Smash fans actually care about legacy? Remember all the complaints about SNK being involved in Smash when that leaked despite SNK being the reason Smash even exists?

 

[Animegamingnerd]

You think Smash fans actually care about legacy? Remember all the complaints about SNK being involved in Smash when that leaked despite SNK being the reason Smash even exists?

Smash fans care about their own nostalgia and personal attachment then legacy, that is an honest to god fact.

 

[Schnee117]

You think Smash fans actually care about legacy? Remember all the complaints about SNK being involved in Smash when that leaked despite SNK being the reason Smash even exists?

Legacy only matters when it's a character I want

 

[wynn728]

You prove my point. So many of their animations are the same along with a lot of their attacks. Sure there is some differences, but they're like 60% similar to each other. So out of the eight Fire Emblem characters in Smash Bros Ultimate four of them share the same animation and attacks. That's the reason why Fire Emblem is so hated in Smash, many of these characters are just so similar to each other while using the same animation an same aesthetic, like they do blend together. Sakurai just made the Fire Emblem cast way too similar to each other, so much so that even Byleth shares similarity to some of the other Fire Emblem characters, that people are just tired of seeing them. There's a burn out and any kind of variation that a character brings stops feeling super unique because there's a limit to what a Fire Emblem character can do and it's been done to death.

Meanwhile with Pokemon reps there's really not much of a limit to what characters can do when compare to others in the roster. Like Cinderace would be unique even when compare to Charizard and Incineroar despite being evolved fire starters. For Mario as much as I hate Piranha Plant it still has a lot of uniqueness that other Mario reps can't do.
Right now we went pass the limits of what a Fire Emblem character can bring to Smash when Robin & Corrin were brough into Smash Bros (I know people are going to say that Byleth is different because he can use an axe and spear, but he's really not that unique), while other series that have a lot of representation like Mario don't really have limits in terms of what moveset can bring to the table.

 

[Guynamednelson]

hmmm.

Hot take.

This is the only newcomer speculation thread where actual discussion can happen.
On all the mono-character threads, you get flamed/dismissed/reported for not overtly supporting their character, leading to those threads becoming 'bubbles' where everyone there is 100% certain their character is getting in, as the only type of discussion allowed is 'why this character has a chance'.

On this thread, however, each person has their own favorites to get in -- and when you claim they have a chance, you have to actually make your claim stand on its own two feet, and you are conversely allowed to argue why certain characters may not have a chance.

Anyone else agree?

This thread isn't exactly echo chamber-free, with plenty of people insecure about any opinion on FE reps that isn't "I want to validate all complaints that Smash is becoming an FE fighter."

 

[Cosmic77]

This thread isn't exactly echo chamber-free, with plenty of people insecure about any opinion on FE reps that isn't "I want to validate all complaints that Smash is becoming an FE fighter."

Honestly, you could've stopped after, "This thread isn't exactly echo chamber-free, with plenty of people insecure about any opinion on FE."

 

[Guynamednelson]

Honestly, you could've stopped after, "This thread isn't exactly echo chamber-free, with plenty of people insecure about any opinion on FE."

Good point. I'm sure the entire thread would be mad at just one more FE rep, either because it's more FE or because it's not an entire pass full of FE reps.

 

[StarBot]

You prove my point. So many of their animations are the same along with a lot of their attacks. Sure there is some differences, but they're like 60% similar to each other. So out of the eight Fire Emblem characters in Smash Bros Ultimate four of them share the same animation and attacks. That's the reason why Fire Emblem is so hated in Smash, many of these characters are just so similar to each other while using the same animation an same aesthetic, like they do blend together. Sakurai just made the Fire Emblem cast way too similar to each other, so much so that even Byleth shares similarity to some of the other Fire Emblem characters, that people are just tired of seeing them. There's a burn out and any kind of variation that a character brings stops feeling super unique because there's a limit to what a Fire Emblem character can do and it's been done to death.

Meanwhile with Pokemon reps there's really not much of a limit to what characters can do when compare to others in the roster. Like Cinderace would be unique even when compare to Charizard and Incineroar despite being evolved fire starters. For Mario as much as I hate Piranha Plant it still has a lot of uniqueness that other Mario reps can't do.
Right now we went pass the limits of what a Fire Emblem character can bring to Smash when Robin & Corrin were brough into Smash Bros (I know people are going to say that Byleth is different because he can use an axe and spear, but he's really not that unique), while other series that have a lot of representation like Mario don't really have limits in terms of what moveset can bring to the table.

Wynn: "why don't they make more echoes, it's a wasted opportunity!"

Also Wynn: "wtf is this, ugh these echoes sucks, why FE keeps getting these clones"

Also Also Wynn: "wtf, they wasted development time on a orginal FE character"

 

[chocolatejr9]

Wynn: "why don't they make more echoes, it's a wasted opportunity!"

Also Wynn: "wtf is this, ugh these echoes sucks, why FE keeps getting these clones"

Also Also Wynn: "wtf, they wasted development time on a orginal FE character"

Which stage of grief is this?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Which stage of grief is this?

Denial

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Right now we went pass the limits of what a Fire Emblem character can bring to Smash when Robin & Corrin were brough into Smash Bros (I know people are going to say that Byleth is different because he can use an axe and spear, but he's really not that unique), while other series that have a lot of representation like Mario don't really have limits in terms of what moveset can bring to the table.

And this is where I'd point to the Manaketes, Pegasus Knights, Mages, and Dark Mages...

IF I HAD ANY!!!!

(Before you comment Robin and Corrin, the Tactition is not a mage unit nor can it use dark magic. Corrin is a piece of cardboard. Not a Manakete.)

 

[PeridotGX]

why do we even have these FE arguments? Nobody's mind will be changed, and it's the exact same points that were said in the last argument and will be said again in the next.

What do you know, I was right!

 

[Schnee117]

Denial

That's just a river in Egypt

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That's just a river in Egypt

A river in a dryyyyy laaand!

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Game Freak could easily break off from Nintendo and start their own Pokemon franchise with identical mechanics, but it would have to be under a new name with completely new creatures.

Gamefreak doesn't want to work on Pokémon even when Nintendo is paying them.

 

[JamesDNaux]

At the end of the day, nothing you say or do is going to remove a character from Smash. Debate statistics all you want, whine till the cows come home, curse the name Fire Emblem and boycott the series, everyone is here, what's done is done. Sakurai does whatever he damn well pleases and Fire Emblem pleases him. Yes it sucks that other series keep getting neglected in favor of FE, but taking it out on who does get in isn't helping whoever didn't. Dwelling on negativity will only hurt yourself and others, use that energy to spread the love of series you feel were slighted instead. Just use Byleth as your personal punching bag if you need to de-stress.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

You prove my point. So many of their animations are the same along with a lot of their attacks. Sure there is some differences, but they're like 60% similar to each other. So out of the eight Fire Emblem characters in Smash Bros Ultimate four of them share the same animation and attacks. That's the reason why Fire Emblem is so hated in Smash, many of these characters are just so similar to each other while using the same animation an same aesthetic, like they do blend together. Sakurai just made the Fire Emblem cast way too similar to each other, so much so that even Byleth shares similarity to some of the other Fire Emblem characters, that people are just tired of seeing them. There's a burn out and any kind of variation that a character brings stops feeling super unique because there's a limit to what a Fire Emblem character can do and it's been done to death.

Meanwhile with Pokemon reps there's really not much of a limit to what characters can do when compare to others in the roster. Like Cinderace would be unique even when compare to Charizard and Incineroar despite being evolved fire starters. For Mario as much as I hate Piranha Plant it still has a lot of uniqueness that other Mario reps can't do.
Right now we went pass the limits of what a Fire Emblem character can bring to Smash when Robin & Corrin were brough into Smash Bros (I know people are going to say that Byleth is different because he can use an axe and spear, but he's really not that unique), while other series that have a lot of representation like Mario don't really have limits in terms of what moveset can bring to the table.

You play Roy completely different to any other sword fighter though. In fact Roy is closer to someone like Fox in terms of overall gameplay. He has to get up close to his opponent to do any meaningful damage, and he's a fast faller. Most swordsmen are more floaty and are all about keeping your distance and spacing your attacks (Although Marth isn't even good at that in this game). If you tried to play Roy the same as Marth or Lucina, you'd suck.