Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Cutie Gwen]

also goes into the punchies and kickies category

Corrected alongside Meta Knight's absence, crazy how Smash fans take issue with swords but punchies and kickies get ignored despite having more than double the amount of swordies

 

[osby]

Punchies and kickies: 36



Swordies: 16

Clearly the swordies are the issue
EDIT: Noticed I accidentally put Bowser Jr. in there, corrected to Bowser
EDIT 2: forgot the other Links, corrected
EDIT 3: Added the puffballs like Will mentioned, plus MK

If you consider as a swordfighter, you probably should count as well.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

https://www.nintendo.com/consumer/network/en_na/network_status.jsp

From the Geno thread.

An indication we could get an Direct on that week?

 

[N3ON]

Punchies and kickies: 36



Swordies: 16

Clearly the swordies are the issue
EDIT: Noticed I accidentally put Bowser Jr. in there, corrected to Bowser
EDIT 2: forgot the other Links, corrected
EDIT 3: Added the puffballs like Will mentioned, plus MK

You forgot to @ Sakurai

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If you consider as a swordfighter, you probably should count as well.

I know for a fact I counted Corrin, I swear, mobile emojis are ****ed. That being said II tried to be as loose as possible with swords which is why I counted Byleth, Ganon's moveset is primarily punchies so if I counted him as a swordie I'd need to put Ike in the punchies group

 

[CHAMPIONX9]

If the way Sora was handled as World of Final Fantasy DLC is any indication, I think if Sora ends up being Smash Ultimate DLC, he's not gonna be one of the Fighters Pass 2 characters, or be a part of any Pass whatsoever... he'll instead be a completely standalone Fighter Pack, possibly only available for a limited time.

Yo, does that mean we are all getting a free dlc character Heck ya

 

[osby]

From the Geno thread.

Yeah, I wouldn't take this seriously.

 

[Gazorpazorpfield]

Ehhhh... punching and kicking are kinda the default form of combat, because everyone has limbs to attack with. Basic melee is like combat in it's simplest form, so the presence of melee fighters doesn't really call attention to itself. Besides, since brawlers fight with their body, their attacks are based off of their physical makeup. Yoshi doesn't fight like Wario, who doesn't fight like Donkey Kong, who doesn't fight like Falco. Weapon users are a more specific category of fighters, and sword users are more specific still. You can only do so many things with a sword, ya know? I don't really care, but I can at least understand why people would be put off by the prevalence of swords and not brawlers; the swordfighter is a relatively specific archetype for how commonly represented it is. It would be like, instead of just Samus, Mega Man and Mii Gunner, there were some 20 other characters who all used guns. Again, I don't really have a dog in this fight, but the counter-arguments about how there are more "punchy-kicky" guys than swordfighters are giving me strawman vibes.

Also, swordfighters tend to play very similarly, and the majority of them share an anime aesthetic, which doesn't help how they're viewed.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You can only do so many things with a sword, ya know?

No other fighting game has this problem with swords, Smash doesn't get to be immune to criticims but then the issue becomes 'swordusers are too similair', not 'too many swordusers'. Especially as almost all the punchies have the same basic punches

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

No other fighting game has this problem with swords, Smash doesn't get to be immune to criticims but then the issue becomes 'swordusers are too similair', not 'too many swordusers'. Especially as almost all the punchies have the same basic punches

But "Brawlers" do a lot more than just punching.

They kick, headbutt ,body slam and some of them can use their animal traits such as claws, beak pecks and tail whips or even teeth/fangs.

They use almost every major part of their body for combat compared to a sword user who can only swing it around different angles so many times.

 

[Tako Tuesday]

The absolute nerve of Zarude, threatening Baboom like this

Is Baboom in danger of having his spot in Challenger Pack 6 stolen? Is Zarude a cooler grass monkey than Baboom? All these questions and more! Find out on the next episode of: POKÉ BALL Z!!!

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

But "Brawlers" do a lot more than just punching.

They kick, headbutt ,body slam and some of them can use their animal traits such as claws, beak pecks and tail whips or even teeth/fangs.

You mean like how swordfighters do a lot more than just swinging their sword?

Like performing magic, using items and other weapons, and morphing their body into freakish hellspawns?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

https://www.nintendo.com/consumer/network/en_na/network_status.jsp

From the Geno thread.

An indication we could get an Direct on that week?

...they still do credit card maintenance for Wii U and 3DS?

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

You mean like how swordfighters do more than just swinging their sword?

Like using magic, other items and weapons, and morphing their body into freakish hellspawns?

I'm talking about "Physical Combat", if we are talking about "Special Moves" than both sides have their share of attacks.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

But "Brawlers" do a lot more than just punching.

They kick, headbutt ,body slam and some of them can use their animal traits such as claws, beak pecks and tail whips or even teeth/fangs.

They use almost every major part of their body for combat compared to a sword user who can only swing it around different angles so many times.

There's only so many ways to do a basic punch or kick too, hell, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more shared punches than sword swings. What about a wild style which has absolutely zero finesse like deranged killers on media do? What about iaijutsu? What about naginatas? Show me one game, one, that has the same issue with swords as Smash. Oh wait, you can't, as Capcom VS, SamSho, Soul Calibur, UNIST and every other game with a bunch of swords don't have this issue

 

[pinshadow]

No other fighting game has this problem with swords, Smash doesn't get to be immune to criticims but then the issue becomes 'swordusers are too similair', not 'too many swordusers'. Especially as almost all the punchies have the same basic punches

Because most fighting games that use swords are entirely based around them?

Seriously, when Sakurai, the guy making all the movesets, is openly acknowledging that there are too many swords and giving Byleth weapons they don't even use just to make then more unique, I think that says something. Hell, he also said he only included Corrin specifically because the team showed he would be an "interesting fighter", pretty obvious he's talking about the dragon transformations. You look at every unique sword character added since Smash 4 and they either have a character defining gimmick (Tomes, Monado Arts, Limit, MP/Command Select) or fight with other stuff in addition to the sword (Dragon Transformations, Hero's Relics).

 

[Schnee117]

Are we just gonna ignore that some swordfighters can also use magic, items, and morph their body into freakish hellspawns?

Or use entirely different swords that have different abilities and uses.
Or how some swords, even without the extra abilities, just can't be used the same as other swords.

If you want to try and do finesse with a Zweihander like you would a Rapier, be my guest. You just won't actually be able to do it because a Zweihander isn't made for that style.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Because most fighting games that use swords are entirely based around them?

Seriously, when Sakurai, the guy making all the movesets, is openly acknowledging that there are too many swords and giving Byleth weapons they don't even use just to make then more unique, I think that says something. Hell, he also said he only included Corrin specifically because the team showed he would be an "interesting fighter", pretty obvious he's talking about the dragon transformations. You look at every unique sword character added since Smash 4 and they either have a character defining gimmick (Tomes, Monado Arts, Limit, MP/Command Select) or fight with other stuff in addition to the sword (Dragon Transformations, Hero's Relics).

Every punchy had a gimmick since then too lmao. The issue isn't the amount of swords at all, Smash fans are just hypocritical because they see a punch punch kick as a jab and ****ing nut at them

 

[Schnee117]

Because most fighting games that use swords are entirely based around them?

Seriously, when Sakurai, the guy making all the movesets, is openly acknowledging that there are too many swords and giving Byleth weapons they don't even use just to make then more unique, I think that says something.

He probably wouldn't have that issue if he and Nintendo could pick characters that use different types of swords and there wasn't currently a situation where you have a group of four and a group of three that are derivatives of each other in said groups.

And that he couldn't think of a moveset for a whipsword wielding brawler white mage only reflects poorly on him.

 

[HansShotFirst20]

Your ideal Fighter's Pass 2 gets pitted against Fighters Pass 1 + Plant in a battle of canonical strength. How do they fare?

My pass definitely stomps; Dante and Sol Badguy are both Bayonetta tier, Doom Slayer is pretty strong as well, Crash and Artorias are both from Dark Souls, and Waluigi would probably find some way to cheat himself into victory.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Seriously though, if we got a teaser for Lyn Fire Emblem Joker style, people would whine that she's another generic sword user despite her swordfighting style not being used in Smash at all but if the same happened for idk, Crash, people would go "Wow what a unique choice! No shared moves here, no sirree"

 

[blackghost]

Ok but Kirito in the top 15 is ****ing crazy and you know it

why is it crazy? how many anime has he been in in the last 7 years? he's currently in a anime that very popular (and much better than old sao) newer characters are onpeoples mind everyone isnt hung up on one off characters from 20 years ago. some of us werent even born when they came out.

 

[Gazorpazorpfield]

I think some people are assuming that others here actively dislike sword users, which I don't think is the case. Acknowledging their unusual presence doesn't have to be a slight against them, and fans of those characters don't need to come to their defense and make accusatory posts.

Anyway, I'm sure a lot of the sword talk gets mixed in with people's feelings about anime or, more specifically, Fire Emblem. We've been down that road, before.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

why is it crazy? how many anime has he been in in the last 7 years? he's currently in a anime that very popular (and much better than old sao) newer characters are onpeoples mind everyone isnt hung up on one off characters from 20 years ago. some of us werent even born when they came out.

Kirito's the biggest buttmonkey I've seen in the anime community, that's why

 

[blackghost]

From what I understand, it was someone from Marvel that was responsible for the roster crap.

They're gone now and we'd be dealing with the same Marvel owned Disney that is allowing X-Men and Fantastic Four in games such as Ultimate Alliance 3

you skipped astep there. disney now owns all those characters across all platforms and media after the buying of some of fox's ips and rights. they didnt during the development of infinite.

 

[pinshadow]

Every punchy had a gimmick since then too lmao. The issue isn't the amount of swords at all, Smash fans are just hypocritical because they see a punch punch kick as a jab and ****ing nut at them

Seriously though, if we got a teaser for Lyn Fire Emblem Joker style, people would whine that she's another generic sword user despite her swordfighting style not being used in Smash at all but if the same happened for idk, Crash, people would go "Wow what a unique choice! No shared moves here, no sirree"

Why do you act like this? Seriously, you seem to get annoyed everytime someone disagrees with your taste on stuff. I'm not even against more swords, I'm just not a fan of alot of the sword characters people seem to think are on the table right now.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

you skipped astep there. disney now owns all those characters across all platforms and media after the buying of some of fox's ips and rights. they didnt during the development of infinite.

Which shows the issue, Disney owned the characters in all but movie rights yet still restricted it like how Star Wars Fallen Order almost wasn't allowed to use the word Jedi or how Square, the developers for KH, weren't allowed to keep Sora in their Final Fantasy game or even let Sora talk

 

[blackghost]

That brings up a good point. If, hypothetically, the last six characters were the top six from that poll (Crash, 2B, Rex, Monster Hunter, Dante, Sora), what would you think?

4/5 would be great. crash means nothing to me but old school only people would eat it up. Perinsally i think he'd be a dull character to play kinda like banjo vs the rest of season 1. getting the dream of dante vs bayonetta vs 2b in an action showdown would be epic.

i see people often post "i have no connection with this character" and i just cannot understand it. is that the DRIVING force for people to determine whether or not people what a character? You develop a connection to characters AFTER thier inclusion often not prior to them being added. FE fanbase came from smash for example as kids no one ignored marth ad roy because they hadnt seen them before (or couldnt understand them) what changed? why are people so agianst being introduced to new characters when thats what smash does for most people and players? Do people not consider movesets or interesting mechanics that thier inclusion could bring? i dont see what crash would bring other than being crash which is just not exciting. i want to see characters that wil lsee play in competitive and casual play. give me characters like hero, joker, and terry and not banjo or PP.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Once again, on swords...

I would be more willing to find the "too many swords/sword fighters!" argument more rational if not for the actual context of the sword fighters we already have in Smash. It's not an honest conversation without the context of the situation. I would like to put the reminder in there that Sakurai only mentioned the "too many swordfighters" in the Byleth column. This was not said in the Hero announcement, but when we get the Fire Emblem character. There isn't a huge outcry that we got Dragon Quest. There is more controversy around Fire Emblem.

I would also be more willing to understand if there were basically...any high quality industry picks that used a weapon other than a sword. I find it hard to believe that Nintendo would say, "Welp, looks like Dante, 2B, Geralt, Sora, and Travis are out of the running because they use the same weapon as X many fighters." That's not what's on the mind with these picks. It's not Nintendo's fault that most gaming protagonists from fantasy settings use swords as their primary, and most iconic, weapons.

I also cannot fathom the concept that essentially any of the current sword users actually are "too similar", especially when those that do have specific context surrounding them that literally make them exceptions. Link plays nothing like Marth, nor even Young Link or Toon Link because there's more to Smash than the way a character swings a sword. Ike doesn't play anything like Shulk. Roy is even different from Chrom. Meta Knight doesn't play like Hero. It's completely reductionist to say that the sword fighters all play the same or are "hard to tell apart". You'd either need glasses or literally just stare at the character select screen (I'm not even meme-ing this now). Lucina and Chrom are literally designated as Echo fighters.

I recall somebody say weeks ago that they couldn't tell Ike and Marth apart. There's frankly no way that's true unless the people saying these things just look at pictures or don't even play the characters. It's as ridiculous as me saying that Mario, Luigi, and Wario are "the same" because they all wear overalls, or that we have "too many animal characters" because we have , and they're just not my taste.

There aren't a multitude of high-tier industry picks that use bows, lances, or axes that stand a reasonable chance at Smash. Just because they use a sword means nothing...it's how the weapon is used, and the assets within the moveset. If we did get Dante, Geralt, and 2B, people would cry that they have swords. But they don't play alike, and it's not as though there are mega huge characters that use lances and axes (even though we just got one for CP5), so what's the issue? To me, it would appear it boils down to it specifically not adhering to someone's personal interests, which is frankly irrelevant to the "too many swords" argument, or at least is very telling.

Dante is nothing like current characters with swords. 2B is nothing like current characters with swords. Hell, having not even played his games, Travis Touchdown is likely nothing like current sword fighters. With context, the sword argument isn't really that horrible, because there's reasons why things have turned out the way they have.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Why do you act like this? Seriously, you seem to get annoyed everytime someone disagrees with your taste on stuff. I'm not even against more swords, I'm just not a fan of alot of the sword characters people seem to think are on the table right now.

Because people constantly **** themselves whenever someone suggests a sword wielder despite never considering the hypocrisy. I've seen people ****ing melt down about swords because of Joker and the Brave datamining about how Smash is obsessed with swords and that it's all we ever get. It's tiring seeing this **** for damn near 6 years

 

[Guynamednelson]

I recall somebody say weeks ago that they couldn't tell Ike and Marth apart

Which is ironic, because in the days before swords were controversial, Ike and Roy looking more masculine than Marth contributed to their popularity.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Which is ironic, because in the days before swords were controversial, Ike and Roy looking more masculine than Marth contributed to their popularity.

Even back then people constantly called Ike a clone of Marth despite the only similar animation being Fair (Ike's up air pre-Ultimate was drastically different)

 

[blackghost]

Which shows the issue, Disney owned the characters in all but movie rights yet still restricted it like how Star Wars Fallen Order almost wasn't allowed to use the word Jedi or how Square, the developers for KH, weren't allowed to keep Sora in their Final Fantasy game or even let Sora talk

i dont know if the story about fallen order is true or not. but what i do understand is that sora is at least partly a disney character and disney has creative control on his use (as they should). disney didnt want to advetise for a competitior in foz and put xmen or other characters in a game they paid for to make. .
Multiple people have discussed to death how sora is complicated in licensing and a multitude of other ways. it would take alot to get him in.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

i dont know if the story about fallen order is true or not. but what i do understand is that sora is at least partly a disney character and disney has creative control on his use (as they should). disney didnt want to advetise for a competitior in foz and put xmen or other characters in a game they paid for to make. .
Multiple people have discussed to death how sora is complicated in licensing and a multitude of other ways. it would take alot to get him in.

Which is why Disney is an issue. Sora's appeared with multiple Final Fantasy characters since his first game yet the people who make KH aren't allowed to have Sora in their FF game for 6 months despite FF being a selling point for KH too

 

[Eldrake]

Your ideal Fighter's Pass 2 gets pitted against Fighters Pass 1 + Plant in a battle of canonical strength. How do they fare?

My pass definitely stomps; Dante and Sol Badguy are both Bayonetta tier, Doom Slayer is pretty strong as well, Crash and Artorias are both from Dark Souls, and Waluigi would probably find some way to cheat himself into victory.

I don't know how physically strong Byleth is canonically, but if he can't lift, then I can only assume that Dante, Travis, Juggernaut, Gordon Freeman and Agumon don't really have to do anything because K R A I D THE ABSOLUTE L A D just bellyflops on Fighter's Pass 1 Squad + Piranha Plant.

 

[Droodle]

Why do you act like this? Seriously, you seem to get annoyed everytime someone disagrees with your taste on stuff. I'm not even against more swords, I'm just not a fan of alot of the sword characters people seem to think are on the table right now.

Are you against them for gameplay or just as characters?

Because the sword characters on the table currently (as in frequently discussed) would be pretty unique.

Sora: Magic, transformations
Dante: Style switching, multiple weapons.
Lloyd: Duel Wielding.

And then you go towards the less "discussed" characters:

Yuri: Heavy mixture of Swings, and punches.
Sol Badguy: Install, and a bunch of other stuff.
Rex: Blade swapping.

And then you go to the completely of the walls picks like:
Laharl: Meteor impacts that explode into swords.

So I'd say there are plenty of sword fighters that can still feel unique and refreshing. It's just that around 50% of the current swordfighters are echoes/semiclones of other fighters; which is why people are tired of swords.

 

[3BitSaurus]

i see people often post "i have no connection with this character" and i just cannot understand it. is that the DRIVING force for people to determine whether or not people what a character? You develop a connection to characters AFTER thier inclusion often not prior to them being added. FE fanbase came from smash for example as kids no one ignored marth ad roy because they hadnt seen them before (or couldnt understand them) what changed? why are people so agianst being introduced to new characters when thats what smash does for most people and players? Do people not consider movesets or interesting mechanics that thier inclusion could bring? i dont see what crash would bring other than being crash which is just not exciting. i want to see characters that wil lsee play in competitive and casual play. give me characters like hero, joker, and terry and not banjo or PP.

Smash is still a character based crossover. It's not surprising at all that people would want characters from games they have a stronger connection to. Sure, I like to imagine movesets and get into new stuff, but all of my most wanted picks are from games I've played.

While you can absolutely create an attachment for a series after seeing them in Smash... I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to act like that. Crash means a lot to many people who played his games, so of course they'd want him. I wanted characters like Mega Man, Sonic or Banjo because I liked them and their series. That's all there is to it.

Not everyone bases their choices around competitive play, you know...

 

[Deleted member]

Good morning.

Geez, you guys are having some kinda fun discussion. Probably that's why there's a ton of people right now.

 

[Heoj]

I was in the Geno thread and were talking about the possibility of a march 10 direct since it would be mario day, as well as the fact that super mario RPG's 24th anniversary(japanese release) is march 9th, so a direct at around that time could be possible, obviously its not likely since it would be a tuesday direct but its just something to keep in mind.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

To be fair, we do have a lot of sword fighters now. Beyond this, I feel like it's going to get kinda hard to really distinguish them from one another. You've got Metaknight, Roy, Chrom, Marth, Ike, and Lucina who are all legitimate sword fighters (use sword primarily for everything), Robin and Hero who use a combo of Sword and Sorcery, Corrin & Cloud who use mostly sword with their special attacks and some tilts or jab using something other than a sword, Ganondorf who uses a Sword for his smash attacks, and then Byleth who got 4 weapons to use to differentiate them a bit.

Did you look at the 5 different swordfighting methods I gave that are distinguished from the swordfighters we already have?

It's like you only looked at the first half of my post and that's it.