Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Cutie Gwen]

They could have them in mind when new plans come (in this case, Vol. 2), like Mewtwo and Lucas.



They still acknowledge SMRPG, had the Mii costume last game, and NoA made that tweet asking if people were Team Mallow or Team Geno in 2018. Sakurai mentioned how Geno gets lots of requests.

Mewtwo was planned at that point and Spirits are different from trophies. Before you pull the same dumbass "FAN RULE! FAN RULE DOESN'T COUNT!", Spirits not meaning anything is also a fan rule

 

[Dinoman96]

The thing that reignited Banjo support was Phil Spencer approving of Smash Ballot votes. For Geno, it was post-ballot. That's what I think the issue is.

Well, Geno was still popular enough to be acknowledged by Sakurai in 2016.

Behold, the Geno fandom's holy bible.

 

[MooMew64]

The thing that reignited Banjo support was Phil Spencer approving of Smash Ballot votes. For Geno, it was post-ballot. That's what I think the issue is.

Yes, but is the Geno support truly as loud as Banjo's was? As big as Ridley's and K. Rool's? I could be of course wrong because I don't have numbers to pull up, but from what I've seen, while Geno has a decent and very passionately vocal following behind him, I just don't see that being enough when there is more profit to be made in including something entirely brand new, rather than an old one-off character from the 90's that hasn't shown his face again since, and has had no interest from his own creators in doing anything with him.

As I've previously said, it's not impossible: There's a distinct chance that Sakurai's previous curiosity could make it happen, but given that he isn't exactly the one calling all the shots, I don't know if that's enough, or if he's still even interested. A lot can change in the 5+ years it's been since that quote from Sakurai showing interest. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[Faso115]

Sakurai acknowledged Goku. You know what that means?

Kakarot!

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I made this just to showcase characters I would like to see in future Smash titles.

Not based on current speculation:

View attachment 261557

You know I always come late to stuff right? Despite being a huge Adeleine supporter, I got Kirby Star Allies only a few weeks ago, and now, after having played as her, I need Adeleine in Smash even more.
All the characters added by the updates are cool, but Adeleine is special, I can't stop improving her Soul Melter EX record over and over (currently I did it in about 18 minutes and stuff, and there's still some room for improvements - obviously Adeleine solo/no cpu and without using Amiibos).

And well, I waited for a decent discount to get Kirby Star Allies, because people online said it was short, the helpers play for you, levels look generic, and stuff... but I enjoyed it a lot, it's way better than I thought, especially thanks to the content added by the updates (already spent more than 100 hours in it).

She would be the same type as Villager, a character about taking control of the stage and placing traps, but the concept would be pushed to extreme. Also another cool thing is that all the stuff she draws is a reference to some boss or enemy or character from the Kirby series, and that there's no limits in what she can draw (they can give her a completely different set of summons compared to Star Allies, because there's not a main canon one, aside of the recurring Kracko and Ice Dragon, she always drew different enemies in each game where she appeared, including Dark Matter once).
Placing enemies and traps on the stage feels like if you are designing a Kirby level while fighting, so she would not only represent the character herself, but also the environment in those games.
Ribbon can still add variety... in Star Allies they still didn't fully explore what Ribbon and the Crystal can do, and Smash can expand on this (in the cutscenes of Kirby 64 the crystal is shown shooting lasers, opening star portals and traveling in the space like a rocket, nothing of this has been used in Star Allies).

 

[TheCJBrine]

Mewtwo was planned at that point and Spirits are different from trophies. Before you pull the same dumbass "FAN RULE! FAN RULE DOESN'T COUNT!", Spirits not meaning anything is also a fan rule

Mewtwo was planned but they still had the basegame trophy alongside Lucas’s, both likely coming before the plans to add them. Spirits still serve the same purpose of representing characters, just you can use them like stickers.

I wasn’t going to cry fan rule. Vol. 2 plans came after basegame, no reason a character that was a basegame spirit or AT or whatever couldn’t be considered unless others are prioritized, which may happen.

Sakurai acknowledged Goku. You know what that means?

Kakarot!

What he said about Goku/other non-videogame characters was different from Geno.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Mewtwo was planned but they still had the basegame trophy alongside Lucas’s, both likely coming before the plans to add them. Spirits still serve the same purpose of representing characters, just you can use them like stickers.

I wasn’t going to cry fan rule. Vol. 2 plans came after basegame, no reason a character that was a basegame spirit or AT or whatever couldn’t be considered unless others are prioritized, which may happen.


What he said about Goku/other non-videogame characters was different from Geno.

Spirits also actually have thought and care put into them as they were meant to represent the respective characters more than a trophy ever could

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Sakurai acknowledged Goku. You know what that means?

Kakarot!

The context for that is Goku being deconfirmed though. I really don't get your point. Anyway, why did we get into this debate again?

 

[MooMew64]

TBH both side can claim whatever they want about Spirits and ATs, fact is this second volume of DLC is uncharted waters for us. It's being done well after base game came out and has had feedback and reactions to Spirits and ATs to take into account. This DLC season will pretty much once and for all put to rest one way or the other if ATs and Spirits truly are hard deconfirms. Spirits, as Cutie Gwen said, do indeed have more of a gameplay touch put into them, so that could potentially mean bad things for characters with spirits given Smash's narrative with them and Sakurai's intent with them.

There's no way to tell for certain what will happen. We can predict, but we cannot with 100% accuracy and truth say what will happen. It's all a matter of trying our best to use trends to form a hypothesis, and right now the current trend does seem to imply that Spirits and definitely ATs might be deconfirmations even for DLC. Now it is a matter of waiting and seeing if it's proven correct or not, and no amount of arguing is gonna affect the outcome.

 

[Eldrake]

Honestly? I don't see Square-Enix going with Geno, considering that they understand the marketing power of Smash Bros and that they got plenty of IPs that they might be more interested in marketing. Such IPs includes Bravely Default and TWEWY, with the possibility of Tomb Raider, Deus Ex and potentially even Legacy of Kain if there's any future plans for them.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Spirits also actually have thought and care put into them as they were meant to represent the respective characters more than a trophy ever could

You can also have multiple of each spirit, you can have Sonic in his super form and Pit from the past, etc. The lore is kinda broken. Trophies gave nice descriptions of the characters, letting people get to know them better than the spirits do. Spirits just have a gameplay element, and if one becomes a character, they can edit their spirit’s title.

There probably won’t be any promotions, but I don’t think Sakurai would think “eh...we made them a spirit already” or say no to Nintendo if they thought of making one playable and decided to go through with it.

I don’t know why I got back into this discussion despite what I said earlier, but meh, I feel better now.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Honestly? I don't see Square-Enix going with Geno, considering that they understand the marketing power of Smash Bros and that they got plenty of IPs that they might be more interested in marketing. Such IPs includes Bravely Default and TWEWY, with the possibility of Tomb Raider, Deus Ex and potentially even Legacy of Kain if there's any future plans for them.

That's not even considering the possibility of wanting to cash in on NieR or Drakengard's newfound popularity

 

[Wunderwaft]

Honestly? I don't see Square-Enix going with Geno, considering that they understand the marketing power of Smash Bros and that they got plenty of IPs that they might be more interested in marketing. Such IPs includes Bravely Default and TWEWY, with the possibility of Tomb Raider, Deus Ex and potentially even Legacy of Kain if there's any future plans for them.

While I agree with you, isn't Nintendo the one choosing the DLC? Square Enix won't really have much input besides saying yes or no to another DLC character.

 

[Icedragonadam]

That's not even considering the possibility of wanting to cash in on NieR or Drakengard's newfound popularity

And the Trials of Mana remake coming out soon too.

 

[I.D.]

While I agree with you, isn't Nintendo the one choosing the DLC? Square Enix won't really have much input besides saying yes or no to another DLC character.

I see it like this: someone at either Nintendo or Square-Enix has to initiate negotiations for Geno. The Rare guys did it for Banjo after all.

 

[Eldrake]

That's not even considering the possibility of wanting to cash in on NieR or Drakengard's newfound popularity

I can't believe I forgot to mention these two. Dumb me.

While I agree with you, isn't Nintendo the one choosing the DLC? Square Enix won't really have much input besides saying yes or no to another DLC character.

We know that Microsoft/Rare approached Nintendo about Banjo, so Square-Enix approaching Nintendo with an offer isn't impossible here. Even then, Square-Enix might still make counter-offers during the negotiations such as "How would you feel about NieR/TWEWY/Bravely Default content instead?"

 

[MooMew64]

While I agree with you, isn't Nintendo the one choosing the DLC? Square Enix won't really have much input besides saying yes or no to another DLC character.

Yeah, but it extends to Nintendo as well. Geno would not generate nearly as much marketing hype as someone like 2B or Lara would. Geno doesn't reach a new audience either, he'd only really appeal to a select few hardcore Smash fans, who already bought the game. It makes much more sense to tap into a new, potentially much larger market, than an incredibly niche one you already won over.

Characters like 2B, a Bravely character, and especially Lara would get people who have never played Smash before to look into it. Heck, Joker did that with Persona fans: a ton of Persona fans who had never even played Smash before have now because their favorite character is in the game. Geno's appeal is much more niche in comparison, and is based in people who are already Smash fans. What new audience do you reach with him? Why would SE and Nintendo go for him over other options? How would it benefit them, and would it truly grab more eyes than those other choices?

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I already accepted the fact that Geno will be randomly dropped as a Mii costume like how they brought back Megaman.EXE during the last presentation. I mean, it's not sure yet but I've got the feeling that it will happen.

You can also have multiple of each spirit, you can have Sonic in his super form and Pit from the past, etc. The lore is kinda broken. Trophies gave nice descriptions of the characters, letting people get to know them better than the spirits do in a way. Spirits just have a gameplay element, and if one becomes a character, they can edit their spirit’s title.

There probably won’t be any promotions, but I don’t think Sakurai would think “eh...we made them a spirit already” or say no to Nintendo if they thought of making one playable and decided to go through with it.

As I said in the (I think, can't remember) Ganon thread, there can be multiple spirits for the same character, but there can't be multiple spirits with the same name. If the spirit called "Geno" already exists in the game, they won't add another "Geno" spirit, if anything they will add a new spirit of the same character with a small comment near (such as "Geno (Super Smash Bros. Ultimate)" in case he's being added and gets a new artwork). Since it requires a work around, I think that it's unlikely to get a character who already has a spirit in the game, but still possible if they really want that character in. My stance is that spirits don't deconfirm but strongly weaken the chance of the characters; but it's all yet to be confirmed, let's see what they will do in the next fighter pass.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Since there are rumours of two new Silent Hill games coming, I have a little bit of hope that James Sunderland could have a chance to join Super Smash Bros Ultimate...

In other news while I'm dropping this stuff, and I think I can talk about this, I'll mention there is a couple new Silent Hill games in the works. Konami about two years ago reached out to various developers to pitch ideas for two Silent Hill games, one a soft-reboot of the

— AestheticGamer aka Dusk Golem (@AestheticGamer1) January 21, 2020

... Or could be spirited away which would make the "In Water" ending canon.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

Yeah, but it extends to Nintendo as well. Geno would not generate nearly as much marketing hype as someone like 2B or Lara would. Geno doesn't reach a new audience either, he'd only really appeal to a select few hardcore Smash fans, who already bought the game. It makes much more sense to tap into a new, potentially much larger market, than an incredibly niche one you already won over.

Characters like 2B, a Bravely character, and especially Lara would get people who have never played Smash before to look into it. Heck, Joker did that with Persona fans: a ton of Persona fans who had never even played Smash before have now because their favorite character is in the game. Geno's appeal is much more niche in comparison, and is based in people who are already Smash fans. What new audience do you reach with him? Why would SE and Nintendo go for him over other options? How would it benefit them, and would it truly grab more eyes than those other choices?

Almost everything in this post can be applied to Banjo. Would not generate as much hype as Master Chief or Steve, wouldn't reach a new audience through Smash, would only appeal to hardcore Smash fans that have wanted him for a while, their inclusion wouldn't benefit Microsoft... yet look what happened.

 

[Cosmic77]

Spirits and trophies were made to accomplish the same thing, and that's to include other characters who weren't AT, Pokeball, or background characters. Most of the arguements I see that try to explain why one is different from the other are either, "Then lore says Spirits are supposed to represent non playable characters" and, "Spirits have more care put into them, so..." The last claim is subjective.

 

[pinshadow]

Square is also the company that was the hardest to get back for Ultimate in the first place and Nintendo/Sakurai were the ones that went to them for Hero, and presumably Cloud as well given how Sakurai talked about him.
https://www.siliconera.com/masahiro...imates-hero-dlc-director-philosophy-and-more/
http://www.sourcegaming.info/2016/01/20/sakurai-x-nomura-creator-interview-2016-part-one/#more-5563

So pretty much, Square isn't the ones pushing for stuff to be in Smash. It pretty much comes down to what Nintendo wants.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I already accepted the fact that Geno will be randomly dropped as a Mii costume like how they brought back Megaman.EXE during the last presentation. I mean, it's not sure yet but I've got the feeling that it will happen.



As I said in the (I think, can't remember) Ganon thread, there can be multiple spirits for the same character, but there can't be multiple spirits with the same name. If the spirit called "Geno" already exists in the game, they won't add another "Geno" spirit, if anything they will add a new spirit of the same character with a small comment near (such as "Geno (Super Smash Bros. Ultimate)" in case he's being added and gets a new artwork). Since it requires a work around, I think that it's unlikely to get a character who already has a spirit in the game, but still possible if they really want that character in. My stance is that spirits don't deconfirm but strongly weaken the chance of the characters; but it's all yet to be confirmed, let's see what they will do in the next fighter pass.

All they gotta do is add “(SMRPG)” to the current Geno spirit, and the same for other characters if they’re chosen instead/as well. They already edited a spirit due to a new FE spirit character having the same name. It shouldn’t be an issue.

I think the Mewtwo and Lucas trophies may have also went unedited.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Yeah, but it extends to Nintendo as well. Geno would not generate nearly as much marketing hype as someone like 2B or Lara would. Geno doesn't reach a new audience either, he'd only really appeal to a select few hardcore Smash fans, who already bought the game. It makes much more sense to tap into a new, potentially much larger market, than an incredibly niche one you already won over.

Characters like 2B, a Bravely character, and especially Lara would get people who have never played Smash before to look into it. Heck, Joker did that with Persona fans: a ton of Persona fans who had never even played Smash before have now because their favorite character is in the game. Geno's appeal is much more niche in comparison, and is based in people who are already Smash fans. What new audience do you reach with him? Why would SE and Nintendo go for him over other options? How would it benefit them, and would it truly grab more eyes than those other choices?

I don't think reaching new audiences will be the main purpose of Pass 2. Especially since it's been over a year since the game's release and most of the casual players have moved on. Picking a character for the sole purpose of fan service isn't really a shocking or brand new concept when it comes to Smash, many characters only joined Smash because of the fan demand. Not to mention Geno does have Sakurai's blessings, which very few characters have. I assumed Banjo wasn't getting in before Master Chief and Steve and I was wrong, Banjo got in over these two juggernauts due to the power of fan demand. It's something that can get Geno in, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Geno does get in before Sora or 2B.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

"Spirits have more care put into them, so..." The last claim is subjective.

I don't see how a Shanoa trophy would reference an optional glyph you'd easily miss or how a Leon trophy would reference zombies in his games walk slowly, or Orochi Iori, etc

 

[perfectchaos83]

Well, Geno was still popular enough to be acknowledged by Sakurai in 2016.

View attachment 261576

Behold, the Geno fandom's holy bible.

Not gonna lie, this has always seemed like lip service to me.

 

[pinshadow]

Remember, Sakurai liking a character or a franchise only means something when it's a character I personally like, otherwise it means nothing and Sakurai is lying.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I don't see how a Shanoa trophy would reference an optional glyph you'd easily miss or how a Leon trophy would reference zombies in his games walk slowly, or Orochi Iori, etc

On the other hand you have spirits where the team clearly just copy pasted the first image they saw on google and called it a day. Spirits having more care than trophies is a subjective statement, especially since the latter is a full 3D model while the former is just a PNG sticker.

Oh my god Nintendo actually used someone else's sprites for one of their spirits in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate! Below is the Masked Man, with and without alpha channels applied. Aaaaaand then take a look at this: https://t.co/slRa0gGd1L pic.twitter.com/7dRmtGx1AB

— Random Talking Bush (@RandomTBush) December 12, 2018

 

[perfectchaos83]

Remember, Sakurai liking a character or a franchise only means something when it's a character I personally like, otherwise it means nothing and Sakurai is lying.

More like I don't see a single reason why Sakurai would say "I wanted Geno in Brawl" when there never any reason for that character to be in Brawl.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

On the other hand you have spirits where the team clearly just copy pasted the first image they saw on google and called it a day. Spirits having more care than trophies is a subjective statement, especially since the latter is a full 3D model while the former is just a PNG sticker.

Oh my god Nintendo actually used someone else's sprites for one of their spirits in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate! Below is the Masked Man, with and without alpha channels applied. Aaaaaand then take a look at this: https://t.co/slRa0gGd1L pic.twitter.com/7dRmtGx1AB

— Random Talking Bush (@RandomTBush) December 12, 2018

Again, the references can be so goddamn deep with Spirits and is reflected in gameplay

 

[pinshadow]

Again, the references can be so goddamn deep with Spirits and is reflected in gameplay

And Sakurai made it pretty clear Spirits were still far easier to develop than Trophies, theres a reason there's way more of them.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

Almost everything in this post can be applied to Banjo. Would not generate as much hype as Master Chief or Steve, wouldn't reach a new audience through Smash, would only appeal to hardcore Smash fans that have wanted him for a while, their inclusion wouldn't benefit Microsoft... yet look what happened.

I'll agree that Phil Spencer and fan demand played a big part, But even if Banjo-Kazooie is a dead franchise at the moment, The character and series is much more established and carry's more weight and significance than Geno has, Hell at it's highest point it was one of the main faces of the Nintendo brand during the N64 era standing alongside Nintendo All-Stars in Mario, DK and Pikachu.

Microsoft still markets the original 3 games via Rare Replay and Xbox Game Pass and even in advertisements and merchandise, Not to mention Banjo-Kazooie represents Rare and is the company's de facto mascot and the studio played a vital role for Nintendo during the SNES and N64 era, It's one of the franchises if not the main one that pops to mind other than Donkey Kong (Nintendo Owned) when you think of Rare and is the most beloved and successful of Rare's "Original" classic catalogue.

I'm not really a fan of JRPG's (Except for Pokemon) But when you think of Square Enix you think of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest not a secondary character from a Mario game.

Microsoft hasn't really utilized the franchise to it's main strengths, But I would imagine with Phil Spencer heading the Xbox division and the very positive response to Banjo-Kazooie in Smash, They "Might" have plans for the future of the franchise whether it's a remaster similarly to Crash and Spyro to test the waters and then greenlighting a sequel or even a reboot.

Bottom line: Microsoft has more to gain from pushing Banjo-Kazooie than Square Enix gets for pushing Geno, Not to mention likely easier to negotiate with.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I don't see how a Shanoa trophy would reference an optional glyph you'd easily miss or how a Leon trophy would reference zombies in his games walk slowly, or Orochi Iori, etc

The game references are cool, but they don’t really do anything to describe the characters themselves aside from maybe a move or something they do which can often be very vague, like using Shiek for Geno (I think she’s supposed to reference his speed or something, though).

More like I don't see a single reason why Sakurai would say "I wanted Geno in Brawl" when there never any reason for that character to be in Brawl.

Maybe because he really likes the character and thought he’d be cool? He also liked an image of a Geno doll on Instagram. He has no reason to act like a Geno fan if he isn’t while saying little-to-nothing for most other characters’ fans that got mii costumes and whatever. No character has a true reason to be in Smash aside from marketing stuff, what Sakurai likes, fans, or a combination. I wish he spoke this way about Steve and Banjo.

 

[MooMew64]

I don't think reaching new audiences will be the main purpose of Pass 2. Especially since it's been over a year since the game's release and most of the casual players have moved on. Picking a character for the sole purpose of fan service isn't really a shocking or brand new concept when it comes to Smash, many characters only joined Smash because of the fan demand. Not to mention Geno does have Sakurai's blessings, which very few characters have. I assumed Banjo wasn't getting in before Master Chief and Steve and I was wrong, Banjo got in over these two juggernauts due to the power of fan demand. It's something that can get Geno in, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Geno does get in before Sora or 2B.

I disagree completely. Smash is an evergreen title that'll keep selling for as long as the Switch is, similar to games like Mario Kart and Splatoon. People pick it up as a game to play when they buy new consoles, and introducing completely brand new franchises brings in new fandom's and potential new customers. Plus, the casual market will come back if a character that's big gets the game in headlines again.

 

[pinshadow]

More like I don't see a single reason why Sakurai would say "I wanted Geno in Brawl" when there never any reason for that character to be in Brawl.

So the obvious conclusion is that he's lying about liking Geno?

 

[PSIGuy]

I'm still in disbelief over the interview where Sakurai praises XB2 for it's 'open world' but doesn't mention XBX at all. He claims something like "Breath of the Wild must've helped refine their open world design", but that doesn't make any sense. The XB2 staff wasn't able to work on Breath of the Wild or vice-versa; they were shorthanded for XB2 and had to do a lot of outsourcing. XBX would've been the influence on Breath of the Wild because they hired level designers for the large open areas.

“On Skyward Sword, Monolith had mainly helped us on graphics design and other artistic elements. Even though we could have asked them for help on the technical side, we realized their way of making games was completely different from ours and we didn’t have much to learn from them on this installment, since we were almost doing two different jobs. On the other hand, for Breath of the Wild, we’ve been assisted by level designers used to large game areas, in order to make topographic arrangements.”
Source

So why even mention XB2 and BotW in the same article? They're not both open world games (unless your definition of openworld is flatout wrong), they competed for development staff and they don't share any inspiration or design ideas. Bugs me out to no end.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The game references are cool, but they don’t really do anything to describe the characters themselves aside from maybe a move or something they do which can often be very vague, like using Shiek for Geno (I think she’s supposed to reference his speed or something, though).



Maybe because he really likes the character and thought he’d be cool? He also liked an image of a Geno doll on Instagram. He has no reason to act like a Geno fan if he isn’t while saying little-to-nothing for most other characters’ fans that got mii costumes and whatever. No character has a true reason to be in Smash aside from marketing stuff, what Sakurai likes, fans, or a combination.

It still represents **** from their respective games. How hard is it to understand that? Spirits are represented by actual gameplay, trophies never had to coexist with gameplay

 

[Arcanir]

Spirits also actually have thought and care put into them as they were meant to represent the respective characters more than a trophy ever could

I'd say it's more mixed, on the one hand the battles they make for them are very clever since as you say they dig deep with some of the references. On the other hand, Trophies required more work put into making them then just reusing the artwork and also had large descriptions to them that told us who they are, what their stories were, and what their games are, which made it easier to attach to them since you knew more about them. Both have their perks and there are aspects to each option that outdo the other, especially in terms of how they sell the character and their franchise.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

All they gotta do is add “(SMRPG)” to the current Geno spirit, and the same for other characters if they’re chosen instead/as well. They already edited a spirit due to a new FE spirit character having the same name. It shouldn’t be an issue.

I think the Mewtwo and Lucas trophies may have also went unedited.

Really? I didn't know... Could you please tell me what spirit did they change? This is pretty interesting.

 

[Idon]

For ****'s sake, the effort put into something =/= knowledge and love for the thing.

Spirits have very little effort put into them being a .png with a corresponding battle that might take 5 minutes to set up, but they're clever references to things that happen within the original game.

Trophies are high quality models that require texturing and modeling describing the character with a wikipedia style blurb for those unaware of the trophy's origins but nothing beyond the surface level.