Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Knight Dude]

I'd be happy with 1st or 3rd party characters, so long as it's something I give a damn about. I'd be pretty happy with Dixie Kong, but I don't think she'd be as hype as Terry or anything. Not that it would matter that much. She's still a fairly popular character, and has her hair as a gimmick to base her moves off of. Not every inclusion needs to "break the internet" to be a worthwhile choice. If that was the case, the only characters "worth" adding after Cloud would have been Ridley, Banjo-Kazooie and Hero. Which is foolish to think. Byleth, Isabelle, Incineroar, Chrom and Dark Samus didn't light the world on fire, but people still like them. And plenty of people were still hype enough.

I don't think Ryu Hayabusa would make the internet explode like Cloud would, does that make him a bad choice? Nah.

I'm sure we'll have plenty of characters that are really cool, but were mentioned either rarely before their release(like Terry) or not at all. But it wouldn't inherently make them a bad choice.

But I do agree that most of Nintendo's major choices are in. And two of the characters I wanted, Spring-Man and Isaac, were made into ATs, so for me, there's less on the Nintendo side to personally get invested in, Ultimate gave us Ridley, Dark Samus and Incineroar so I thought it was all good **** there.. If Nintendo's gonna have any more first party characters, it'll probably be for upcoming stuff. Which is why people are at least considering another new Pokemon and the like, as opposed to Advance Wars or Golden Sun or Custom Robo getting stuff.

It's all guess work on what we've seen. We don't yet know the characters or thought process behind the new set of characters. So for all we know, Nintendo could want a couple of these older characters or franchises, or just even non-2019/2020 games and characters to have a stronger presence for when they could be used. It's just that there's no indication of that currently.

It still crazy to me that simply calling clones "echo" change everyone perspective of them.

Smash 4 have 3 clones: "no they took Ridley, Geno, Banjo slot, no more clones please!!"

Ultimate have 5 new echoes, 8 in total: "why don't we have more? It's such a cool concept!"

Getting ALL the old characters back I think was the biggest reason as to why it was received positively. Seeing a few requested characters like Ridley, Simon, K.Rool and Inkling sweetened the deal for some too.

 

[Animegamingnerd]

Its simple; people want new universes for Smash, from Nintendo IPs, they could have put a Golden Sun, Rythm Heaven, Costum Robo or Sin & Punishment character but they didn’t do it.

So, thats the basic reason why people (including me) wants more third party characters for DLC; it brings new diversity to the game and enrichs the title of the ultimate crossover of videogame history.

3 out of 4 of these series are dead/obscure though. Your best bet for Nintendo franchises that don't have a playable character in Smash would be a more recent IP like Arms, Ring Fit Adventure, or Dragalia Lost.

 

[HansShotFirst20]

Its simple; people want new universes for Smash, from Nintendo IPs, they could have put a Golden Sun, Rythm Heaven, Costum Robo or Sin & Punishment character but they didn’t do it.

So, thats the basic reason why people (including me) wants more third party characters for DLC; it brings new diversity to the game and enrichs the title of the ultimate crossover of videogame history.

True that. All the 'big' Nintendo franchises are pretty much down to obscure side characters that could be added, which would be exceedingly unhype for people outside the fandoms for those characters. Bandana Dee, Dixie, Geno, etc. wouldn't have the same oomph as a character from an IP new to smash (the exception is probably Waluigi, due to his recent mainstream popularity).

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

I'd still consider Bandana Dee a good tier above the likes of Dixie Kong and Geno, due to the Kirby franchise along with Waddle Dees being insanely popular and marketable in Japan especially. He's also been much more prevalent in games than those other two.

He likely wouldn't break the internet like Waluigi or some highly regarded third-parties would but I wouldn't really consider him "obscure".

 

[Mamboo07]

I'd still consider Bandana Dee a good tier above the likes of Dixie Kong and Geno, due to the Kirby franchise along with Waddle Dees being insanely popular and marketable in Japan especially. He's also been much more prevalent in games than those two.

He likely wouldn't break the internet like Waluigi or some highly regarded third-parties but I wouldn't consider him "obscure".

I would be so happy with Bandana Dee being in Smash Bros.^-^

 

[Idon]

So, yall are doing Villain passes now?

Well here's mine:

For funsies, I put a few restrictions on myself like no duplicate companies, no first parties, and villains that are popular enough such that they actually have a chance of appearing over the protagonists of their games.

Fat chance of any of these guys happening though, lmaooooooooo.

 

[3BitSaurus]

But isn't it nice when unexpected and even forgotten characters make it into Smash?

It is. I just wish this idea applied to first parties as well. Because most first parties in 4 and Ultimate certainly don't fit into that.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I'd still consider Bandana Dee a good tier above the likes of Dixie Kong and Geno, due to the Kirby franchise along with Waddle Dees being insanely popular and marketable in Japan especially. He's also been much more prevalent in games than those other two.

He likely wouldn't break the internet like Waluigi or some highly regarded third-parties would but I wouldn't really consider him "obscure".

Dixie is at least on par with Bandana Dee imo. DKC does not get as many new games as Kirby, but when it does get new entries they tend to sell extremely well. I'd also say that what Dixie might lack in recent entries compared to Bandana Dee she makes up for in legacy. Other than that they're pretty comparable in that both are a bit down the pecking order of their respective series' cast, Dixie tends to be the 3rd wheel while Bandana Dee is the 4th wheel, although Dixie was at least the co-star of DKC2 and then the lead character of DKC3, where as Bandana Dee has always been behind Kirby, Dedede and Meta Knight in the mainline entries.

Personally I don't expect either due to the nature of the characters, the format of the Pass favors main characters, or at least characters which can bring in new worlds (Geno with SMRPG for example), and Dixie and Bandana Dee fit neither. I would really like Bandana Dee though, it's been so long since we had our last Kirby newcomer.

 

[Akg0001]

I want to explain the anxiety around Dixie Kong in particular.

She is an old character, debuting in 1995. As a result, she has been a big part of the Donkey Kong Country games for a long time. From the very beginning, Dixie Kong was openly feminine, but just as capable as Diddy Kong and even had some exclusive abilities like hovering.

For a Nintendo character, this was a big deal, because the most prominent female Nintendo characters at the time were either relegated to being a feminine damsel in distress (or being playable as a hero only a single time like Peach was) or wore a suit to disguise their looks. She was designed to counteract that: not only was she girly, but s capable hero, just as good at rescuing DK as Diddy Kong was. At the time, Dixie Kong was a very standout character due to this. Though she co-starred in DKC2, she graduated to main character in DKC3, though that entry is overlooked.

She even made appearances in all those odd Paon games like DK Jungle Climber and DK Barrel Blast. The quality of those games are debatable, but her appearances in them emphasize that she was considered a core part of the series even in that awkward period in the series' life.

Anyway, Dixie took two (maybe three) big hits to her memorability.

• First: she was not in Donkey Kong 64. This was the big new DK game for the system, and the opening DK Rap has since become more iconic than the game itself.
• Second, though perhaps not as significant, is that, along with many other elements Rare introduced, Dixie did not make it into Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat. It was the big new DK game for the GameCube, but the only familiar face was Donkey Kong, and the game was overlooked due to its unusual control scheme.
• Third, she was not in Donkey Kong Country Returns. It was the huge comeback of Donkey Kong Country as a series of platformers, but much of the focus was on paying tribute to the very first Donkey Kong Country, which, of course, hadn't introduced Dixie yet.

For a lot of kids, like myself, who grew up with the Nintendo 64, GameCube, and Wii, Dixie was a non entity. I did not form my attachment to her until my curiosity led me to play the older DKC games through Virtual Console, and again when Tropical Freeze came out.

As a result, Dixie is in a unique situation: she, as a character, probably isn't going to be "phased out" of the DKC series after Tropical Freeze brought her back and re-cemented her significance in the series. But Dixie's status has changed: she's gone from "series staple" to "old face that has been brought back". DKC Returns didn't have Dixie Kong, but, 4 years later, DKC Tropical Freeze did. However, that was in 2014. We got a re-release on the Nintendo Switch in 2018, where it sold a lot more, but it still wasn't a new game. Dixie Kong hasn't appeared in any spin-offs ever since her one brand-new appearance in 2014, meaning her status as a "series staple" hasn't had a chance since then to truly re-establish itself.

This means all Dixie Kong has on her side, regarding merits for a Smash inclusion, is history. King K. Rool was in a similar boat, and in much more dire straits due to his and the Kremlings' absence in modern DKC games. However, King K. Rool had sheer fan demand on his side, due to a combination of being a part of two very well-loved boss fights (DKC1 / DKC2) and Smash fans' desire for more villains and bad guys in Smash. So K. Rool had both history and fan demand, while Dixie only has the former. Neither character had the "series staple" advantage that Diddy Kong always had, but aside from that, as history ended up demonstrating, K. Rool was at an advantage.

And now, Dixie fans are at a standstill. Dixie Kong being playable in Smash seems like it would happen in a future entry, depending on if DKC gets another game in time. But we don't know how future Smash games will be like. Considering Sakurai's comments that future Smash games will almost definitely be getting cuts, it would be very bittersweet to have an old Nintendo character from the mid-90s join, but only in a game where Everyone Is Not Here After All.

And now comes the sad part: seemingly, the only character DLC on the horizon is bundles with a character, a stage, music, and spirits. While a Tropical Freeze stage with TF (and DKC3) music would be wonderful, the problem is how Nintendo is marketing the DLC: they are aiming for as many different audiences as possible. And Dixie Kong is, more or less, part of the "Nintendo game playing audience" that Smash already markets to by default.

All of this means that, while Dixie Kong was considered a "safe" inclusion in both Smash 4 and Ultimate, she ended up in neither and may not make it into Ultimate's DLC at all. I'm willing to bet that, if Dixie Kong was a standalone character with no stage or spirits (heck, even no music), plenty of people would buy her, presumably due to a reduced price to account for the lack of bells and whistles ($4.99, $1 less than a Challenger Pack). But, so far, the only character like this is Piranha Plant, and it looks like it may stay that way.

In other words, the safest option for Dixie Kong's inclusion literally may not be an option. Bummer.

So, I hope that explains why so many Dixie Kong fans are on edge. We in her support thread are trying to keep our heads held high, however. We're not giving up until the bitter end.

(Another note: every single game Dixie has ever appeared in, she has been playable. Just one exception: the Smash series. Hmmm.)

Great post!

Agree with everything you said. Its really sad that the DK franchise is not getting the love other Nintendo franchises get (Xenoblade also deserves a bit more love IMO). Dont tell me Im wrong, we have almost no Tropical Freeze content in Smash even though the game is a masterpiece. Game came out 2014 btw, thats 6 years! Also got Switch release. So the game is not too old or too new or something. There is no excuse. DK franchise DESERVES more love in Smash!

Sadly the only way we could get Dixie is, if we get more echo fighters (outside of fighters pass of course).

 

[Mamboo07]

Great post!

Agree with everything you said. Its really sad that the DK franchise is not getting the love other Nintendo franchises get (Xenoblade also deserves a bit more love IMO). Dont tell me Im wrong, we have almost no Tropical Freeze content in Smash even though the game is a masterpiece. Game came out 2014 btw, thats 6 years! Also got Switch release. So the game is not too old or too new or something. There is no excuse. DK franchise DESERVES more love in Smash!

Sadly the only way we could get Dixie is, if we get echo fighters (outside of fighters pass of course).

So is Kirby, more modern representation would be cool. (too many bias on Super Star.)

 

[Daisycakes]

I kind of wished Echo fighters used some of the custom moves from Smash 4 like for example, Instead of the Default moveset that peach has, Daisy would get the sleepy toad, flower bomber, light veggie and the floaty parasol custom movesets for her to use.

I also kind of wish Dr. Mario had the Mega Capsule, shocking sheet and the ol' one two custom moves. It'd give custom moves some use. That's just what I think.

This was not done because Custom Moves were obviously not meant to be balanced for regular characters. Do you know how broken Sleepy Toad is, and how awful Flower Bomber is?

The point of Echoes is to add new characters with their own character flair WITHOUT spending too much time on balancing changes, and only make changes where needed.

From Nintendo’s site, an echo fighter is defined by having the same speed, weight, general damage and knockback, and jumping prowess as the original fighter. Really, a tweak to an echo is going to be minor, like Lucina and Chrom’s swords. Or mainly cosmetic like Daisy and Dark Samus.

That is why I think if Shadow was an echo, he would not have any gameplay changes aside from his running and idle animations. Stuff like his teleportation would likely be in his victory poses.

If Dixie was an echo I can see them changing the Up B, Dash Attack and maybe change the way the grabs look, but everything else would be pretty much the same.

People also forget that Dark Samus, Daisy and Richter are literally the only echoes with new models.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

This was not done because Custom Moves were obviously not meant to be balanced for regular characters. Do you know how broken Sleepy Toad is, and how awful Flower Bomber is?

The point of Echoes is to add new characters with their own character flair WITHOUT spending too much time on balancing changes, and only make changes where needed.

From Nintendo’s site, an echo fighter is defined by having the same speed, weight, general damage and knockback, and jumping prowess as the original fighter. Really, a tweak to an echo is going to be minor, like Lucina and Chrom’s swords. Or mainly cosmetic like Daisy and Dark Samus.

That is why I think if Shadow was an echo, he would not have any gameplay changes aside from his running and idle animations. Stuff like his teleportation would likely be in his victory poses.

If Dixie was an echo I can see them changing the Up B, Dash Attack and maybe change the way the grabs look, but everything else would be pretty much the same.

People also forget that Dark Samus, Daisy and Richter are literally the only echoes with new models.

Since when was Ken in Smash before Ultimate

 

[M@R!3]

Ugh, as a Sora supporter, catching up was an extremely painful read.

 

[kirbsmash]

Ugh, as a Sora supporter, catching up was an extremely painful read.

You...get...used to the pain haha

First RE, now KH...

 

[M@R!3]

You...get...used to the pain haha

First RE, now KH...

Why are we still here? Just to suffer?

 

[Dinoman96]

Since when was Ken in Smash before Ultimate

He was a trophy

 

[Cutie Gwen]

He was a trophy

View attachment 261490

But is it the same model?

 

[Evil Trapezium]

This was not done because Custom Moves were obviously not meant to be balanced for regular characters. Do you know how broken Sleepy Toad is, and how awful Flower Bomber is?

The point of Echoes is to add new characters with their own character flair WITHOUT spending too much time on balancing changes, and only make changes where needed.

From Nintendo’s site, an echo fighter is defined by having the same speed, weight, general damage and knockback, and jumping prowess as the original fighter. Really, a tweak to an echo is going to be minor, like Lucina and Chrom’s swords. Or mainly cosmetic like Daisy and Dark Samus.

That is why I think if Shadow was an echo, he would not have any gameplay changes aside from his running and idle animations. Stuff like his teleportation would likely be in his victory poses.

If Dixie was an echo I can see them changing the Up B, Dash Attack and maybe change the way the grabs look, but everything else would be pretty much the same.

People also forget that Dark Samus, Daisy and Richter are literally the only echoes with new models.

Well I hate Echo Fighters and the reason for them existing (Increasing the roster size) is dumb. I just think that custom special moves could have been some way to give them something different to use instead of being exactly the same. Ken proves that they could have done this since he's different enough from Ryu to be considered a Semi Clone.

Besides if they did add custom moves to echo fighters then they'd obviously balance them out so they're not as broken.

Anyway if anyone is interested, I made a list of Custom Special moves I'd give to clone characters like Dr. Mario, Young Link, Toon Link and Pichu as well as the Echo Fighters (Except Richter since he's too new for Smash 4 custom movesets and Ken because he's different enough). it's far from perfect and you will see a lot of problems but the point is just to show how these characters can be different.

Spoiler: Custom specials for Clones and Echo Fighters

NOTE: Names in brackets aren't not used as the name of the move
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Clones
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Dr. Mario

Megavitamins -> (Mega Capsule)
Throws a large, slow-moving capsule. Short ranged, but hits multiple times.

Super Sheet -> Shocking Sheet
Launch foes with an electrically charged sheet. Can't reflect projectiles, though.

Super Jump Punch -> Ol' One Two
A burning uppercut. Not much height, but causes a powerful explosion at its peak.

Dr. Tornado = Fine
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Young Link

Fire Arrow -> (Fire Bow)
Sets fire to the ground where the arrow lands.

Boomerang -> Ripping Boomerang
A short-ranged boomerang that passes through opponents, dealing multiple hits.

Spin Attack -> Shocking Spin
Strong and electrical, but sideways motion is reduced and it leaves you vulnerable.

Bomb -> Meteor Bomb
Pull out a short-fused bomb that has a meteor effect on airborne foes.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Toon Link

Hero's Bow -> Piercing Bow
Fires a piercing bow at high speed. Does less damage than normal arrows.

Boomerang -> High-Speed Boomerang
Throw a high-speed boomerang that passes through fighters. Deals less damage than normal.

Spin Attack -> Hurricane Spin
Slide forward while spinning. If used in the air, you'll move more sideways than up.

Bomb -> Time Bomb
The bomb only explodes when its fuse runs out. Does less damage but launches foes.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pichu

Thunder Jolt -> Thunder Wave
The ball of electricity paralyses foes but does less damage.

Skull Bash -> Shocking Skull Bash
A flying headbutt that deals multiple hits. The last hit has added launch power.

Agility -> (Quick Feet)
Doesn't move twice, but moves much farther than Pikachu's up special.

Thunder -> Distant Thunder
The thundercloud will appear higher up. Deal more damage near the cloud.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Echo Fighter
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Daisy

Toad -> Sleepy Toad
A counter that puts opponents in front of you to sleep. Launches airborne opponents.

Daisy Bomber -> (Flower Bomber)
A hip bash that plants flowers on enemies' heads. If you miss, you're left open to attacks.

Daisy Parasol -> (Light Parasol)
The jump isn't very high, but opening the parasol lifts you a little bit higher.

Vegetable -> (Light Veggie/Heavy Veggie)
Pluck a veggie on the ground. The weight of the Veggie depends on it's mood.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dark Samus

Charge Shot -> Multi Shot
The amount of shots depends of how much it's been charged from 1 (Uncharged) to 3 (Half Charged) to 5 (Fully Charged)

Missile -> Relentless Missile
Launch a slower, more persistent missile. Also, the Super Missiles decelerate after a bit.

Screw Attack -> Apex Screw Attack
Hits at the start and peak of the jump. The force at the peak can launch foes.

Bomb -> Mega Bomb
Drop a stronger bomb with a longer fuse. Only one can exist at a time.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lucina

Shield Breaker -> Dashing Assault
Thrust while dashing forward. Deals slightly less damage than normal.

Dancing Blade -> Effortless Blade
You can't change the combo type, but you can wait longer between attacks. Lower damage.

Dolphin Slash -> Crescent Slash
Rise in an arc while attacking. Deals most damage at the midpoint. Doesn't go as high.

Counter -> Easy Counter
Your counter stance lasts longer, but the attack power is lower.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chrom

Flare Blade -> Storm Blade
Slash your sword forward, creating a gust of wind that knocks opponents back.

Double-Edge Dance - Heavy Blade Dance
Each strike is stronger but launches foes, making it hard to pull off a combo.

Soaring Slash = Fine

Counter -> Paralysing Counter
A counter that paralyses enemies instead of dealing damage.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dark Pit

Silver Bow -> (Piercing Bow)
Fire a giant arrow that travels through foes. A powerful shot, but leaves you quite open.

Electroshock Arm -> (Quickshock Arm)
Charge forward with such speed, you won't stop even after delivering an uppercut.

Power of Flight -> (Striking Flight)
The angle of flight can't be controlled as much, but you deal damage at takeoff.

Guardian Orbitars -> (Amplifying Orbitars)
Summon shields that are easily broken but boost the power of reflected projectiles.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Honestly, I could see why Disney would be hesitant to let Sora into Smash.

From a brand perspective, joining Smash is a lot more risky than you might think. You're essentially signing up your character for a game where they shoot at, slice up, and use a hammer to beat a plethora of other characters for sport. Obviously, it's done in a relatively slapstick way, but that could still be a step in a slightly more edgy direction for many of these characters' brands. Likewise, you also have to accept that your character is appearing alongside any characters in the game or any characters that will be added through DLC in the future. It's not enough to be cool with your character sharing a product with brands like Metal Gear, Persona, and Bayonetta, you have to be cool with the possibility that series like Resident Evil and Doom could be alongside your character next.

Contrast this with Disney, a company that has made excessive brand control a major pillar of their business strategy. If Disney licenses their characters, they want to be as hands on as possible to ensure you're using their characters in a way that's consistent with a very particular image. Step outside their set lines? Congrats! You've just earned your product a spot in the "Forget this ever happened" corner of the Disney vault.

Despite Kingdom Hearts being aimed at an older audience, we've seen Disney apply this approach for this brand as well. And, I mean, why wouldn't they? Not only has this approach worked in the past, but Kingdom Hearts is also connected to numerous other products Disney places a lot of value in (Mickey Mouse, their animated library, Pixar's catalog), so controversy involving Kingdom Hearts could ripple out and effect some of the big money makers. So, when its framed like this, why would you take that risk? Pleasing a handful of fans and getting some free publicity and royalties really isn't worth putting someone else in the driver's seat when you've got a very specific destination in mind.

That being said, I do feel sorry for Sora's fans. It always sucks to take a big blow to your chances, no matter who the character is. I have no real connection to the character myself, but I do have an old friend who absolutely loves the series, so I would've been interested in seeing Sora for her sake.

On a side note, it's almost a miracle that the Pokemon Company is still onboard with Smash, considering how protective they are of their brand. It wouldn't surprise me if they wanted off Mr. Sakurai's Wild Ride in the past, only to get rangled back in.

Smash would pale in compareson to Sora killing himself in KH1 So yeah I dont see that as a problem

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Smash would pale in compareson to Sora killing himself in KH1 So yeah I dont see that as a problem

And That's one of the most important plot points in the series given it spawned one of the series best characters.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

And That's one of the most important plot points in the series given it spawned one of the series best characters.

You heard it here folks" In a disney game, a 14 y/o killing himself was hella important to the game

 

[MooMew64]

3rd parties have much more appeal to me at this point, and that’s basically that. I think one thing everybody could do better is at least attempt to learn more about characters/series they don’t know much about, as I usually say.

At the end of the day, though, learning about a character doesn't do much for me if I don't like the game they come from.

TBH I sometimes feel like your posts about the third parties can come off a little bit like you're criticizing people for not having the same Smash interests as you. If I'm reading into things or I'm way off then I apologise, but you do seem to have a habit of coming in literally any time people are trying to talk about a first party want and shoot them down immediately. However, whenever it's a third party you have interest in, you seem more than happy to allow others to engage in conversation about it. Like, I've seen plenty of times where people are just talking about a character they like, but then you come in and immediately halt that with "You're raising your expectations too high, stop talking about this. Temper your expectations." It kind of feels like some people just share their wants and then you come in to tell them they're wrong.

Again, if I'm wrong I apologise, but I've noticed if it's a character that you support, you never tell them they're getting their hopes up too high, or to "hype responsibly". Also interesting that you felt the need to claim first party fans are " victimising" themselves when third party supporters do the same.

I know you don't hate first parties, and I'm not saying you do, but man, you sure don't seem keen to even let people dream a little.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Regarding the Sora thing, we know that Nintendo tried to get Sora before and Disney Japan was a problem, but we don't know when. It's a big hit against him, but it's hard to say whether it's a full disconfirmation for season 2 unless we know the details of that exchange, which isn't likely.

However, the fact that Nintendo went for Sora should, like I said before, solve two important arguments people used against him:

1 - "Nintendo wouldn't go for Sora because KH uses non-videogame characters" - but they apparently did.
2 - "You can't implement Sora without the Disney characters" - again, considering that Sakurai's only rule (pretty much) is no non-VG characters and they still went for Sora, it seems Nintendo thinks otherwise at least.

 

[Daisycakes]

Since when was Ken in Smash before Ultimate

Ken’s model is just Ryu’s model with a few changes, and a skin tone change.

 

[merchantofsalt]

It is. I just wish this idea applied to first parties as well. Because most first parties in 4 and Ultimate certainly don't fit into that.

That's true. Ultimate is also the first game where we didn't get a "retro curveball" character like Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt. You could make the argument for Piranha Plant, but it's not quite the same.

Ultimately, Smash Bros. used to have more cute and cartoony additions, while from 4 onwards, it has trended towards more realistic humanoids and heavily-armed characters. Whether you prefer this or not you can't deny it strikes a very different tone. It also has to do with how the game industry in general has abandoned mascot and cartoon-type characters in favor of fully-voiced, humanoid protagonists.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Ken’s model is just Ryu’s model with a few changes, and a skin tone change.

Idk, the models seem more unique than for Peach and Daosy, got a source on that?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

But is it the same model?

Likely not. It looks super gross.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Likely not. It looks super gross.

It's the SFIV model, not one made for Smash.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

That's true. Ultimate is also the first game where we didn't get a "retro curveball" character like Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt. You could make the argument for Piranha Plant, but it's not quite the same.

I always thought Simon counted as this games retro character

 

[3BitSaurus]

That's true. Ultimate is also the first game where we didn't get a "retro curveball" character like Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt. You could make the argument for Piranha Plant, but it's not quite the same.

Ultimately, Smash Bros. used to have more cute and cartoony additions, while from 4 onwards, it has trended towards more realistic humanoids and heavily-armed characters. Whether you prefer this or not you can't deny it strikes a very different tone. It also has to do with how the game industry in general has abandoned mascot and cartoon-type characters in favor of fully-voiced, humanoid protagonists.

It's not even a matter of retro or not, it's more like... Fire Emblem itself was a big risk back in Melee, and it paid off. Same with Pit in Brawl. I wish Nintendo would give their series the benefit of the doubt and take these risks with their series again. It's our best chance of getting franchises like Golden Sun, Advance Wars or Style Savvy into the game, not to mention others that are mostly region-locked, like The Mysterious Murasame Castle, Panel de Pon or Famicom Detective Club.

It should be no different from learning about third parties you've never played, really.

 

[Daisycakes]

Idk, the models seem more unique than for Peach and Daosy, got a source on that?

The Models Resource. Switch between Ryu and Ken’s models and they match up near perfectly, right down to the muscle tones and the polygons on the hands and feet.

 

[Herocin]

It’s fairly ridiculous that people are still saying Kahn said they tried to negotiate for Chief. Some other guy speculatively said he thinks Chief and Sora were both negotiated for, then the sora stuff then Kahn discusses how Chief would be a big reveal. He never uttered a word which suggested that Nintendo tried to get Chief.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

At the end of the day, though, learning about a character doesn't do much for me if I don't like the game they come from.

TBH I sometimes feel like your posts about the third parties can come off a little bit like you're criticizing people for not having the same Smash interests as you. If I'm reading into things or I'm way off then I apologise, but you do seem to have a habit of coming in literally any time people are trying to talk about a first party want and shoot them down immediately. However, whenever it's a third party you have interest in, you seem more than happy to allow others to engage in conversation about it. Like, I've seen plenty of times where people are just talking about a character they like, but then you come in and immediately halt that with "You're raising your expectations too high, stop talking about this. Temper your expectations." It kind of feels like some people just share their wants and then you come in to tell them they're wrong.

Again, if I'm wrong I apologise, but I've noticed if it's a character that you support, you never tell them they're getting their hopes up too high, or to "hype responsibly". Also interesting that you felt the need to claim first party fans are "victimising" themselves when third party supporters do the same.

I know you don't hate first parties, and I'm not saying you do, but man, you sure don't seem keen to even let people dream a little.

Well, to be fair to that first part, how do you know you don't like the game if you don't know anything about it? That's part of why I've come to the point at which I've developed an appreciation for nearly every character in the roster...I've played their game and learned more about them. If I can't play their games, I read about it.

I think it's fair that you're reading my posts that way, even if I'm not intending it to sound like that. I've been limiting my time on the site this past week because of plenty of other things going on, but there are times when I do check in, there are some posts that I'm like, "I can respond to that" to which I do.

The background to the reason my posts may seem this way is that from my point of view with this Season of DLC is that there's absolutely reason to believe things can turn out a certain way (even though some people seem to think "Anything could happen!" to shut those reasons down). This is also a reason why I say for some folks to "temper expectations", because I believe there's reason to suggest there isn't going to be some dynamic shift where we get more than 2 first parties, let alone upgrades.

No matter what I say, or how I articulate my point, certain people just...don't listen. There's an endearment of wanting to discuss things you like or want, and if I'm allowed to do that then everybody should be able to. But as it's a speculation thread, there's more to speculation than just saying, "This is who I want" and leaving it at that. Discussing the "if", "when", "how", "what" is arguably more interesting than just saying, "who" and leaving it at that. (Also, side note, but TheCJBrine I apologize if I haven't properly responded to one of your posts. I will gladly respond to it if you'd like to have the conversation!)

I simply believe the narrative that there's a "conspiracy" against first parties, that "Smash used to be a Nintendo crossover" (as if it isn't anymore...lol), this idea that "third parties are bad" that some people spin is crappy, and it limits conversation when their most desired 1st party picks picks are from 3 or 4 series that already have tons of content. There are certain intricacies to the conversation that may make it easier to talk about, and I might bring those up later.

I'll keep it in mind for when I post though. It's never been my intention to be like, "STFU, you can't talk about that", but more to discuss it in a different way. I appreciate you pointing that out. To be honest, Smash is like my favorite, so I tend to get passionate about it in discussion and I can get...I don't want to say heated, but caught up in my convictions about it, I guess you could say.

PS- actually, if I'm being honest? One thing that I think would make talking about certain picks a bit more interesting is the moveset. I'd love to talk about that more!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It's the SFIV model, not one made for Smash.

Ah. Another example of how lighting engines can make character models look so much better (or worse). Well, that and Street Fighter IV does have some jankiness in the face department.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The background to the reason my posts may seem this way is that from my point of view with this Season of DLC is that there's absolutely reason to believe things can turn out a certain way (even though some people seem to think "Anything could happen!" to shut those reasons down). This is also a reason why I say for some folks to "temper expectations", because I believe there's reason to suggest there isn't going to be some dynamic shift where we get more than 2 first parties, let alone upgrades.

Thing is, this game's newcomer roster has already thrown curveballs several times.

Thought it was just gonna be mostly Nintendo characters too new for 4? You get Ridley.
Thought it was gonna be all fan requests? Some say Isabelle, but Incineroar is arguably a better example of defying it, being someone who could not be voted for on the ballot at all.
Thought the pass was gonna consist of random Nintendo characters without spirits? You get Joker.
Thought the pass was gonna be all third-parties? You get Byleth.

 

[MooMew64]

Well, to be fair to that first part, how do you know you don't like the game if you don't know anything about it? That's part of why I've come to the point at which I've developed an appreciation for nearly every character in the roster...I've played their game and learned more about them. If I can't play their games, I read about it.

I think it's fair that you're reading my posts that way, even if I'm not intending it to sound like that. I've been limiting my time on the site this past week because of plenty of other things going on, but there are times when I do check in, there are some posts that I'm like, "I can respond to that" to which I do.

The background to the reason my posts may seem this way is that from my point of view with this Season of DLC is that there's absolutely reason to believe things can turn out a certain way (even though some people seem to think "Anything could happen!" to shut those reasons down). This is also a reason why I say for some folks to "temper expectations", because I believe there's reason to suggest there isn't going to be some dynamic shift where we get more than 2 first parties, let alone upgrades.

No matter what I say, or how I articulate my point, certain people just...don't listen. There's an endearment of wanting to discuss things you like or want, and if I'm allowed to do that then everybody should be able to. But as it's a speculation thread, there's more to speculation than just saying, "This is who I want" and leaving it at that. Discussing the "if", "when", "how", "what" is arguably more interesting than just saying, "who" and leaving it at that. (Also, side note, but TheCJBrine I apologize if I haven't properly responded to one of your posts. I will gladly respond to it if you'd like to have the conversation!)

I simply believe the narrative that there's a "conspiracy" against first parties, that "Smash used to be a Nintendo crossover" (as if it isn't anymore...lol), this idea that "third parties are bad" that some people spin is crappy, and it limits conversation when their most desired 1st party picks picks are from 3 or 4 series that already have tons of content. There are certain intricacies to the conversation that may make it easier to talk about, and I might bring those up later.

I'll keep it in mind for when I post though. It's never been my intention to be like, "STFU, you can't talk about that", but more to discuss it in a different way. I appreciate you pointing that out. To be honest, Smash is like my favorite, so I tend to get passionate about it in discussion and I can get...I don't want to say heated, but caught up in my convictions about it, I guess you could say.

PS- actually, if I'm being honest? One thing that I think would make talking about certain picks a bit more interesting is the moveset. I'd love to talk about that more!

It's all good! I agree with what you're saying here and must admit I'm very passionate about this game as well, ha ha. I can get caught up in my feelings about it too. Again, I hope I didn't come off as rude or confrontational, I just was curious to clear some things up and share my own thoughts a bit. I do read about characters and try to play the games too, but I must admit some games just aren't for me, and I can tell by reading about them most of the time. I really appreciate you took the time to respond to this, as I think I understand your posts better now.

I agree completely that move sets aren't talked about enough these days. It'd go a long way in helping people understand why you want a specific character!

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Thing is, this game's newcomer roster has already thrown curveballs several times.

Thought it was just gonna be mostly Nintendo characters too new for 4? You get Ridley.
Thought it was gonna be all fan requests? Some say Isabelle, but Incineroar is arguably a better example of defying it, being someone who could not be voted for on the ballot at all.
Thought the pass was gonna consist of random Nintendo characters without spirits? You get Joker.
Thought the pass was gonna be all third-parties? You get Byleth.

I've already stated a response to this point though. If anybody legitimately thought the first three, that was absolutely foolish.

I said, from the beginning, that I believed Three Houses would be an exception to having all 3rd parties because it's a newer game that has legitimately no content in Smash. This is consistent with Smash Wii U adding Corrin alongside series/characters that are entirely new to Smash. Byleth isn't this huge boon for additional 1st parties, and I'm not saying that just because I favor 3rd parties. This isn't a pattern based on two characters, it's an observation based on 9 characters across two games. Precedent suggests that the format we've gotten for the last 9 characters will continue, bringing in entirely new content to the game and/or protagonists from newer titles.

Doesn't mean I'm going to be 100% right, but I don't think it's wise to look at DLC in the same way as base roster in the first place when the marketing for it is entirely different. The additions have to sell themselves to a wider audience, which is probably why they're bundled in the packs as they are.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The additions have to sell themselves to a wider audience

How are Banjo and Byleth made for a wider audience, then? The former's audience would already have interest in Nintendo, and the latter's series has grown more popular already thanks to Smash.

 

[Garteam]

Smash would pale in compareson to Sora killing himself in KH1 So yeah I dont see that as a problem

I don't know if that's a valid comparison. Not only was Disney able to get a say in exactly how that scene would go down, something that they don't have the luxury to do in Smash, but Sora sacrificing himself in impermanent death to save his friends is a lot safer for Sora's image than putting him in a game where he could take Solid Snake's grenade and throw it at a dog.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

He was a trophy

View attachment 261490

man...I’m glad Smash has their own art style that improves the fighters