Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Cutie Gwen]

Ah, the SmashChu defense.

Come now, I don't see "We can and should sue over this trust me I go to /pol every hour"

 

[Mamboo07]

It bothers me that the Kirby, Zelda, Wario and Yoshi series hasn't gotten a new rep for years:
Mario, Pokemon and Fire Emblem series
Always being so greedy and takes an entire chunk of the roster with their new characters.

Kirby, Zelda, Wario and Yoshi series
Can't even get a single new fighter.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

"Cereal mascot" was a term made up by fans of anime human styled characters who were tired of people constantly insulting their favorite characters as "generic anime swordsmen". Seeing as these insults were usually made by fans of cartoony mascot characters similar to Banjo-Kazooie or Rayman or Crash, it was made as a countermeasure by """generic anime swordsmen""" fans who have had enough from the others at this point.

The terms aren't equal as "generic anime swordsman" is still flung around far FAR more than "cereal mascot" is. Bonus points from several Banjo & Kazooie fans who said things like "I'm fine with whoever Sakurai adds after Banjo & Kazooie because I'm so SO grateful they actually finally made it in!!!!11!!" but ended up going back to complaining about Byleth using the same "generic anime swordsmen" insult.

Edit: no, I'm not saying it's wrong to be disappointed with Byleth. I'm only saying that reducing them to "generic anime swordsmen" is oversimplifying them as much as calling BK or Rayman or whoever as a "cereal mascot", yet the crowd who likes the latter kind of character is generally the one that hurls these insults to the former group, only to act surprised and dumbfounded when they retort back with an insult of their own.

Honestly, countering stupidity with the same stupidity is never a good solution to any argument. I get that the anime swordsman thing is a tiring thing to listen to, but countering it with another generalization just shows that it's not so much the reductionist term they take issue with, but more so that people aren't on the same side as themselves.

 

[NoOtherPersona]

"Cereal mascot" was a term made up by fans of anime human styled characters who were tired of people constantly insulting their favorite characters as "generic anime swordsmen". Seeing as these insults were usually made by fans of cartoony mascot characters similar to Banjo-Kazooie or Rayman or Crash, it was made as a countermeasure by """generic anime swordsmen""" fans who have had enough from the others at this point.

The terms aren't equal as "generic anime swordsman" is still flung around far FAR more than "cereal mascot" is. Bonus points from several Banjo & Kazooie fans who said things like "I'm fine with whoever Sakurai adds after Banjo & Kazooie because I'm so SO grateful they actually finally made it in!!!!11!!" but ended up going back to complaining about Byleth using the same "generic anime swordsmen" insult.

Edit: no, I'm not saying it's wrong to be disappointed with Byleth. I'm only saying that reducing them to "generic anime swordsmen" is oversimplifying them as much as calling BK or Rayman or whoever as a "cereal mascot", yet the crowd who likes the latter kind of character is generally the one that hurls these insults to the former group, only to act surprised and dumbfounded when they retort back with an insult of their own.

I could go for a box of BanJOs

 

[P.Kat]

I could go for a box of BanJOs

BanJOs? Those are for pack mules.

 

[Diddy Kong]

And you think Smash fans care about gimmicks more? No, they care about characters just as much as they care about how fun they are to play, regardless of whatever gimmick you want to slap on them.

You want a comparison, look at Jigglypuff. Literally the most unique character in the entire game and no one plays her because she's boring as hell to actually play and dies to a light wind. Likewise, how many Corrins do you see? How many people do you see praising the fact that he turns into a dragon? Going to go out on a limb here and say an amount not even remotely close to the people chanting "We Like Ike" and "Roy's Our Boy."

I also want to say that despite being the most bog standard swordsmen in the entire game, Lucina and Chrom are by far the most popular FE characters online, but that's anecdotal and based on my region.

Jigglypuff the most unique character? I don't really agree there. Her playstyle is pretty basic and relies mostly around two moves with the exact same purpose, namely F Air and B Air. Her gameplan is simply lure people to the edges and barrage with Wall of Pain. And due to her being a overall very weak character with little reward to the risk involved, of course she's not popular. In Melee, the only game she's viable in, she's also not popular because of the stigma around the character. In Melee, playing Jigglypuff is sort of taboo. Don't ask me why.

Corrin? Turning into a dragon? It's not all that unique because all that really represents this in their moveset is another Counter. It's a strong Counter, but it's still a Counter..and they aren't good in Ultimate, and many people disliked their addition in Smash 4, despite being pretty good.

People just usually go for characters who are easy to play and get results with. Zero Suit Samus has never been a popular pick, despite being Top Tier in all games but Brawl. Diddy wasn't popular after Hoo Hah got nerfed and was always a Top Tier untill Ultimate (**** move btw, BUFF DIDDY). Both are quite unique. But just harder to play than the average character.

 

[Cadillac]

Okay, real talk: Even if a Direct is happening this week, Smash news ain't guaranteed. Some of y'all are givin' me mad pre-Game Awards vibes for this Direct, lol.

I'm waiting for some Silksong news, which is sadly less likely to happen than Smash reveal.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Of course, we all know it's fine to insult characters if you're doing it ironically

Man, I love the internet.

Honestly, countering stupidity with the same stupidity is never a good solution to any argument. I get that the anime swordsman thing is a tiring thing to listen to, but countering it with another generalization just shows that it's not so much the reductionist term they take issue with, but more so that people aren't on the same side as themselves.

It's almost like the people who use said "counter" already hated the characters to begin with, exactly like the "aNiMe SwOrdSmEn" crowd...

On other news, it seems the image for the Platinum4 site got slightly modified overnight...

 

[Diddy Kong]

Okay, real talk: Even if a Direct is happening this week, Smash news ain't guaranteed. Some of y'all are givin' me mad pre-Game Awards vibes for this Direct, lol.

Doesn't matter. At this point am more interested in the sequel to Zelda BotW honestly.

 

[Calamitas]

Okay, real talk: Even if a Direct is happening this week, Smash news ain't guaranteed. Some of y'all are givin' me mad pre-Game Awards vibes for this Direct, lol.

Right now I'm honestly moreso waiting for more news on XCDE, tbh.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Right now I'm honestly moreso waiting for more news on XCDE, tbh.

Multiple retailers had listed it as a May 29th release iirc, the trick in this is to see what's consistent

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It bothers me that the Kirby, Zelda, Wario and Yoshi series hasn't gotten a new rep for years:
Mario, Pokemon and Fire Emblem series
Always being so greedy and takes an entire chunk of the roster with their new characters.

Kirby, Zelda, Wario and Yoshi series
Can't even get a single new fighter.

To be fair the Wario Land series is dead and the WarioWare Inc. and Yoshi series are incredibly minor. They get a remake game every once in a while, and it does alright.

 

[Dinoman96]

Kirby, Zelda, Wario and Yoshi series
Can't even get a single new fighter.

Cold harsh truth is that those series just don't have any characters left that are notable enough to be made playable in Smash.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Cold harsh truth is that those series just don't have any characters left that are notable enough to be made playable in Smash.

False. They may be more niche in appeal but you could say the same for many of the Fire Emblem characters as well. Besides, how in the world are popular side characters, tertiary protagonists, and villains not notable enough when the bar is at being a commonly recurring enemy?

EDIT: I'm not sure tertiary protagonist is the best term for Bandanna Waddle Dee. It's a bit more important than that, it just isn't Meta Knight or King Dedede levels of important.

 

[SKX31]

SKX31 This is only partially related to Smash speculation, but I was wondering if you knew what all the planned 3rd party games for the Nintendo Switch in China were? you seem pretty knowledgeable of Nintendo's endeavors in China.

I was looking online and found this press image from Daniel Ahmad's twitter, but I can't read Chinese and I couldn't find any sources of to what exactly these games listed were.

Took me a while (on my phone and my net crashed a couple times while checking stuff):

While I'm not able to read (much) Chinese either, that image is presenting the Chinese indie titles on the way to the Chinese Switch. A lot of them are already available on the international Switch (To The Moon, My time at Portia), but some are getting on the Switch for the first time (Chinese Parents, Iris.Fall).

First- and third party wise, Nintendo and Ubisoft have submitted games for review (6 and 4 games respectively), there could certainly be more studios that have submitted. The approval process is onerous, not least since the board is SAPP (State Administration of Press and Publication. And that's the shortened name).

There are a total of around 20 third parties working with games for the Chinese Switch, including quite a few Chinese devs (the ones behind most of the indies in that pic, like the Tencent-owned NEXT). The international 3rd party games initially announced are here.

While these official releases could help Story of Seasons, Rayman (If upgrades are a thing), Hollow Knight etc. and their cases; do note that more devs have announced official Chinese releases after the presentation, and there's always the chance that more comes. While I do think that China likely factored into one FP2 character - Nintendo aims to expand there - it's incredibly difficult to say if there is a frontrunner. Could be one of those three, could be a juggernaut like Steve or someone like Phoenix Wright, who has influenced quite a bit there. The chances that a Chinese favorite coincidentally being a Sakurai favorite is also pretty high IMO.

 

[Flyboy]

I might come into this thread and bang on about third parties like 2B and Phoenix and Travis but the moment Captain Syrup or Mona dropped? I'd be a puddle on the floor. Overall I want to see characters from games that have stages and "worlds" not yet in Smash (so I suppose Captain Syrup DOES count...) but you can't stop me from getting hyped for characters I love anyway.

It's like the Chun-Li discussion we had the other day. Yeah, a new Capcom series being added would overall be more exciting than a new Street Fighter character, but at the same time it's Chun-Li! She's hype!

 

[Dinoman96]

False. They may be more niche in appeal but you could say the same for many of the Fire Emblem characters as well. Besides, how in the world are popular side characters, tertiary protagonists, and villains not notable enough when the bar is at being a commonly recurring enemy?

I hate how Piranha Plant is being used as a trump card when in reality it's just a "surprise character", its inclusion was a one-time gag based on the fact that it's just some common enemy made playable. And even then, Sakurai said he included it because it was well known.

But really, outside of Piranha Plant, just look at the current roster. You can basically divide it into four categories:

1. Main protagonists or mascots of notable IPs (Mario, Link, Villager, Inkling, Sonic, etc)
2. Important reoccuring focal story characters, typically villains or damsels (Bowser, Ridley, K. Rool, Zelda, Palutena, etc)
3. Pokemon (this process is a different can of worms from the other series in Smash)
4. Clones, semi-clones or deriatives that took less development time and resources to implement (Falco, Dark Pit, Lucina, Wolf, Ganondorf, etc)

I just don't think any of the additional Zelda, Wario, or Kirby characters really fit any of the above. In Zelda's case, the only character in Smash comparable to Midna or Ghirahim is Sheik, being a one-off supporting character who only appeared in one game...but like, Sheik is just Zelda, so it's all moot.

I guess you could make Impa an echo of Sheik, but eh.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

It bothers me that the Kirby, Zelda, Wario and Yoshi series hasn't gotten a new rep for years:
Mario, Pokemon and Fire Emblem series
Always being so greedy and takes an entire chunk of the roster with their new characters.

Kirby, Zelda, Wario and Yoshi series
Can't even get a single new fighter.

F-Zero and Xenoblade: “Are we jokes to you?”

Splatoon: “Just ONE more fighter? Please?”

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Cold harsh truth is that those series just don't have any characters left that are notable enough to be made playable in Smash.

I do think at least Kirby and Zelda have characters that are notable enough, but it's more so that the format of the DLC doesn't fit well with any of the characters from those series. Like, Bandana Dee would a very good addition imo, but when you have to also bring along a stage, music and spirits, things get a bit awkward for him. The characters that fit best with this whole format are ones that bring in entirely new franchises, like the 3rd parties, or just an entirely new game that's not been represented yet, like Byleth.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

F-Zero and Xenoblade: “Are we jokes to you?”

Splatoon: “Just ONE more fighter? Please?”

You're still in your infancy Splatoon calm down! If all goes well for you you'll get your Octoling in the next game.

I hate how Piranha Plant is being used as a trump card when in reality it's just a "surprise character", its inclusion was a one-time gag based on the fact that it's just some common enemy made playable. And even then, Sakurai said he included it because it was well known.

But really, outside of Piranha Plant, just look at the current roster. You can basically divide it into four categories:

1. Main protagonists or mascots of notable IPs (Mario, Link, Villager, Inkling, Sonic, etc)
2. Important reoccuring focal story characters, typically villains or damsels (Bowser, Ridley, K. Rool, Zelda, Palutena, etc)
3. Pokemon (this process is a different can of worms from the other series in Smash)
4. Clones, semi-clones or deriatives that took less development time and resources to implement (Falco, Dark Pit, Lucina, Wolf, Ganondorf, etc)

I just don't think any of the additional Zelda, Wario, or Kirby characters really fit any of the above. In Zelda's case, the only character in Smash comparable to Midna or Ghirahim is Sheik, being a one-off supporting character who only appeared in one game...but like, Sheik is just Zelda, so it's all moot.

I guess you could make Impa an echo of Sheik, but eh.

Because it shows that they can pick whoever the heck they want so long as it fits some criteria (that's weighted differently from character to character because you don't look for the same things in each character).

 

[clearandsweet]

I'll have some sympathy for F-Zero and Xenoblade and Splatoon once I can play as characters from Golden Sun and Advance Wars.

It still blows my mind that Earthbound somehow managed to get not one, but TWO reps in Smash, fairly early on. The sales on that franchise were beyond terrible, it is and has been super dead with no hope of new games, plus it's niche. I get there's ROB and Ice Climbers in the game with even less of a presence, but still.

At some point, you just have to pass the Sakurai favoritism test.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I'll have some sympathy for F-Zero and Xenoblade and Splatoon once I can play as characters from Golden Sun and Advance Wars.

It still blows my mind that Earthbound somehow managed to get not one, but TWO reps in Smash, fairly early on. The sales on that franchise were beyond terrible, it is and has been super dead with no hope of new games, plus it's niche. I get there's ROB and Ice Climbers in the game with even less of a presence, but still.

At some point, you just have to pass the Sakurai favoritism test.

Lucas only got in because Sakurai thought Mother 3 would release outside of Japan.

 

[Dinoman96]

I'll have some sympathy for F-Zero and Xenoblade and Splatoon once I can play as characters from Golden Sun and Advance Wars.

It still blows my mind that Earthbound somehow managed to get not one, but TWO reps in Smash, fairly early on. The sales on that franchise were beyond terrible, it is and has been super dead with no hope of new games, plus it's niche. I get there's ROB and Ice Climbers in the game with even less of a presence, but still.

At some point, you just have to pass the Sakurai favoritism test.

Lucas only got in because Sakurai thought Mother 3 would release outside of Japan.

I think Lucas kinda gets on by also because he was heavily based on Ness.

https://web.archive.org/web/2012062...sl/words2/dairantosmabrax/smashbrothersx.html

Luca is a stronger version of Nes. First of all, I planned to port Ness's motion more and more and make a dedicated motion if I had time . However, thanks to the efforts of motion designers, I was able to weave in different tricks.

By the sounds of things, Lucas was originally just a pure clone of Ness. It's just that the developers found out they had enough time to differentiate the two. It's kind of like how the main reason we got Wolf in Brawl and not say, Krystal, was because he could be heavily based on Fox and Falco's moveset.

When you think about it...Kid Icarus is probably the most minor Nintendo IP to actually get a fully unique secondary character (and not a deriative in the way Wolf and Lucas are) in the form of Palutena. Dat Sakurai bias I suppose

 

[Deleted member]

Good night guys. Here's to getting a Direct announced...or not.

Lucas only got in because Sakurai thought Mother 3 would release outside of Japan.

And we still don't have a localized Mother 3...but hey, at least the character is in the game...

 

[Evil Trapezium]

F-Zero and Xenoblade: “Are we jokes to you?”

Splatoon: “Just ONE more fighter? Please?”

F-Zero doesn't need more characters. It needs a new game.

Captain Falcon is worth about 8 Fire Emblem characters so the series is already over represented.

 

[Deleted member]

"aNiMe SwOrdSmEn" crowd...

Bro it's not that serious.

Captain Falcon is worth about 8 Fire Emblem characters so the series is already over represented.

Who measured

 

[Faso115]

Ah, fighting over Fire Emblem.

Anyway, here is a fun game: smash has games that span from 1980 to 2020. Ignoring skins, 1988, 1995, 2000, 2008, 2011, 2014 and 2018 are not represented by a fighter.

Who would you pick to fill each year?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Ah, fighting over Fire Emblem.

Anyway, here is a fun game: smash has games that span from 1980 to 2020. Ignoring skins, 1988, 1995, 2000, 2008, 2011, 2014 and 2018 are not represented by a fighter.

Who would you pick to fill each year?

1988: Jason (Blaster Master)
1995: Dixie Kong
2000: Joanna Dark
2008: Chorus Kids (Rhythm Heaven)
2011: Groose (Skyward Sword)
2014: Shovel Knight
2018: Octopath Traveler Party

 

[Zinith]

Ah, fighting over Fire Emblem.

Anyway, here is a fun game: smash has games that span from 1980 to 2020. Ignoring skins, 1988, 1995, 2000, 2008, 2011, 2014 and 2018 are not represented by a fighter.

Who would you pick to fill each year?

1995 would be Poochy

 

[Sestetz]

Ah, fighting over Fire Emblem.

Anyway, here is a fun game: smash has games that span from 1980 to 2020. Ignoring skins, 1988, 1995, 2000, 2008, 2011, 2014 and 2018 are not represented by a fighter.

Who would you pick to fill each year?

This one is really fun! Neat idea

1988: Ryu (Ninja Gaiden)
1995: Crono (Chrono Trigger)
2000: Paper Mario (Paper Mario lol)
2008: Reporter/Karate Joe (Rhythm Heaven)
2011: Nathan Drake/Sackboy/Vincent (Uncharted 3, Little Big Planet 2, Catherine. Hard pick)
2014: Master Chief (Halo: Master Chief Collection)
2018: Hitman/Tetris Block (Hitman 2, Tetris Effect)

 

[Diddy Kong]

Cold harsh truth is that those series just don't have any characters left that are notable enough to be made playable in Smash.

I'd argue against Zelda and Kirby, both game franchises are big enough to at least "force" a character in. Adding a new face, for the sake of adding a new face. But Wario and Yoshi ? There's no real big content left. Unless we wanna add a Yoshi Echo in the form of Yarn Yoshi, which is something I would do to add a new character just for the sake of it. Or a different version of Yoshi where he carries Baby Mario or something. A so called "X Mode" for existent characters.

Speaking of, I could think of quite a few "X Mode" versions of characters , for example Samus but with Ice Beam abilities and super charge missiles. Wario with Wario Land based moves. Kirby with a set of different Copy abilities, different versions of Adult and younger Links (Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess, ALBW Link ect.)... I think it has potential.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Ah, fighting over Fire Emblem.

Anyway, here is a fun game: smash has games that span from 1980 to 2020. Ignoring skins, 1988, 1995, 2000, 2008, 2011, 2014 and 2018 are not represented by a fighter.

Who would you pick to fill each year?

1988 - Ryu Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden)
1995 - Dixie Kong (Donkey Kong Country)
2000 - Beat (Jet Set Radio) c'mon man, we need to get JSR tracks in somehow
2003 - Lloyd Irving (Tales of Symphonia) yeah, technically 2003 ain't represented either, last I checked
2008 - Chorus Kids (Rhythm Heaven)
2011 - Chosen Undead (Dark Souls) Quick shoutout to Steve assuming Minecraft didn't fully release until this year, though it was in it's alpha and playable to the public since about 2009, so..
2014 - Shovel Knight (Shovel Knight)
2018 - Labo Man (Nintendo Labo)

 

[Princess Rescuer]

Probably going to be more third party characters from recent or upcoming games. Probably not going to be old characters you've always wanted. There's more immediate money in putting new characters in.

And it's going to be Japanese choices.

 

[Sestetz]

1988 - Ryu Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden)
1995 - Dixie Kong (Donkey Kong Country)
2000 - Beat (Jet Set Radio) c'mon man, we need to get JSR tracks in somehow
2003 - Lloyd Irving (Tales of Symphonia) yeah, technically 2003 ain't represented either, last I checked
2008 - Chorus Kids (Rhythm Heaven)
2011 - Chosen Undead (Dark Souls) Quick shoutout to Steve assuming Minecraft didn't fully release until this year, though it was in it's beta and playable to the public since about 2009, so..
2014 - Shovel Knight (Shovel Knight)
2018 - Labo Man (Nintendo Labo)

I totally forgot Jet Set Radio came out that'll year! Also, I thought 1995 was covered by Pokemon as well but didn't really want to say anything

 

[Dinoman96]

Probably going to be more third party characters from recent or upcoming games. Probably not going to be old characters you've always wanted. There's more immediate money in putting new characters in.

I mean, they did add Banjo and Terry in the last pass.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

I totally forgot Jet Set Radio came out that'll year! Also, I thought 1995 was covered by Pokemon as well but didn't really want to say anything

nope, pokemon's 1996

that being said, Pokemon as a whole has been copyrighted since about 1995, and iirc, it was planned to release then, before it was ultimately delayed into early '96

 

[Sestetz]

I'd argue against Zelda and Kirby, both game franchises are big enough to at least "force" a character in. Adding a new face, for the sake of adding a new face. But Wario and Yoshi ? There's no real big content left. Unless we wanna add a Yoshi Echo in the form of Yarn Yoshi, which is something I would do to add a new character just for the sake of it. Or a different version of Yoshi where he carries Baby Mario or something. A so called "X Mode" for existent characters.

Speaking of, I could think of quite a few "X Mode" versions of characters , for example Samus but with Ice Beam abilities and super charge missiles. Wario with Wario Land based moves. Kirby with a set of different Copy abilities, different versions of Adult and younger Links (Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess, ALBW Link ect.)... I think it has potential.

A new form on some characters that aren't echoes sounds great. Some good examples of ones I can think of are: Giving Link his Breath of the wild blessings (revali's gale, down b being the block etc) or making Ganondorf more projectile based like in ocarina. Think best way this would be used though is making the echoes more unique, primarily dark samus in my mind because they have a ton of potential

 

[MooMew64]

On the whole "Wario doesn't have any notable characters left": Ashley is still an AT.

Yoshi doesn't really have anything, though.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

It's like the Chun-Li discussion we had the other day. Yeah, a new Capcom series being added would overall be more exciting than a new Street Fighter character, but at the same time it's Chun-Li! She's hype!

This guy gets it.

 

[SneakyLink]

I mean, they did add Banjo and Terry in the last pass.

Terry is still in the King of Fighters series and is being used to this day (though Fatal Fury as a series is effectively over).

Banjo & Kazooie on the other hand...