Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Wasn't it somewhat inspired by Dissidia, not FF as a whole?

Also, datamines showed he used some of Ike's assets, so he was kind of built of a Smash-specific design.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I feel like he should've had his limits incorporated in his moveset more so that he could have access to his weirder stuff.

Like, instead of Fsmash being a random triple hit, it could be the actual cross slash so then he could do meteorain, the stabbing part of climhazzard, Cherry Blossom from FFT, or other magic materia like fire, thunder, or blizzard.

Yes!
There’s a lot of materia overlooked like, quad-cut. The one you upgrade from double-cut would have also been cool.

But yes, that idea is neat. Dsmash could have been finishing touch.

And like I mentioned in another thread. Enemy Skill materia would have been amazing.

—

I remember I started having fun with whatever was revealed when Ryu was announced. At first I rolled my eyes because Megaman can’t have a crossover without Ryu stealing the spotlight, but I immediately let loose, and had fun with it. It’s such a well done character, I’ve had way more fun as Ryu than as Cloud. I even loved Bayo’s inclusion, until of course she broke smash 4.

 

[GoodGrief741]

TBH, as hyped as I was for Cloud’s inclusion, I don’t feel like it’s a moveset drawn from Final Fantasy as opposed to one from either Smash Fire Emblem or Soul Calibur.

Like.. where’s magic? Where’s summon? I know the latter went to create a unique stage hazard, but it would have been cool for Cloud to sport different materia.

This is why I’ve somehow always been split on Cloud. I like the character, but the moveset is eh... it’s possible that this is why I don’t have as much fun as I would want to when i play as him.

Just for the heck of it, when I could assign messages to taunts, I had his side taunts day: “Not enough MP” just so I felt like I at least was about to cast magic.

That's how I feel about Joker. Cloud seems fine to me because using magic and stuff might be too similar to other characters, but they managed to properly represent the core gameplay of FF with the Limit Break and the moveset is pretty fun while simple.

With Joker I wish he used more magic (as it's a big part of Joker's character that he can use any Persona), but my main complaint is that the Rebel Gauge is tacked on with no basis in Persona 5's gameplay.

 

[Idon]

Wasn't it somewhat inspired by Dissidia, not FF as a whole?

Also, datamines showed he used some of Ike's assets, so he was kind of built of a Smash-specific design.

Possibly, but even Dissidia Cloud had a bunch of interesting moves from the games.

I mean come on, they had the Meteorrain limit break and Cherry Blossom from his cameo in Final Fantasy Tactics.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Possibly, but even Dissidia Cloud had a bunch of interesting moves from the games.

I mean come on, they had the Meteorrain limit break and Cherry Blossom from his cameo in Final Fantasy Tactics.

Oh, I'm not arguing his moveset could be more diverse.

I'm just trying to figure out why they kept him less magic-using. Then again, maybe they wanted to focus less on magic and more on his sword skills. So in a way, they succeeded pretty well. Enough that despite how Limit could've been used way better... the guy was still pretty OP enough to be nerfed in Ultimate.

 

[Idon]

That's how I feel about Joker. Cloud seems fine to me because using magic and stuff might be too similar to other characters, but they managed to properly represent the core gameplay of FF with the Limit Break and the moveset is pretty fun while simple.

With Joker I wish he used more magic (as it's a big part of Joker's character that he can use any Persona), but my main complaint is that the Rebel Gauge is tacked on with no basis in Persona 5's gameplay.

Oh, dude you have no idea how disappointed I am in Rebel Gauge.

What I would've done is instead given him a "One More" mechanic wherein if you hit a move, you can follow up with another attack that is only available if the move actually hits, sort of like a rekka system in other fighting games. I think that would've properly gotten across the gameplay of Persona wherein you attack enemies' weakpoints granting you more turns and keeping the momentum up (while the same applies to your enemies).

That, and I would've made Rebel Gauge inverted wherein you start with it max, press a button to call Arsene, and then have it deplete before recharging again. Pretend he's holding an SP Ring or something.

Honestly, I'm getting a little tired of how fighting games in general have all started adding bars that build up until you can unlock a specific part of their moveset that makes them more fun to use.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Oh, dude you have no idea how disappointed I am in Rebel Gauge.

What I would've done is instead given him a "One More" mechanic wherein if you hit a move, you can follow up with another attack that is only available if the move actually hits, sort of like a rekka system in other fighting games. I think that would've properly gotten across the gameplay of Persona wherein you attack enemies' weakpoints granting you more turns and keeping the momentum up while the same applies to your enemies.

That, and I would've made Rebel Gauge inverted wherein you start with it max, press a button to call Arsene, and then have it deplete before recharging again. Pretend he's holding an SP Ring or something.

Honestly, I'm getting a little tired of how fighting games in general have all started adding bars that build up until you can unlock a specific part of their moveset that makes them more fun to use.

Oh man I hadn't even thought of One More as a mechanic, that would have worked great! Tbh just having Arsene as a stand a la the JoJo fighting game would have been enough, but One More actually feels like proper representation.

And yeah, giving characters meters makes characters needlessly complicated without making them more fun. With Robin I felt like tomes decaying was not necessary (having most of his special moves be chargeable is already a big differentiator from the rest of the cast) and kind of annoying. Little Mac's KO Meter also came out of nowhere, especially when it could have been a Star Punch mechanic and been more original and something from the actual games. And then came Joker and the Rebel Gauge. It feels like Sakurai's really overrelying on them (like counters).

 

[osby]

Unpopular opinion probably, but I'm fine with how Joker is implemented. They seem to focus on his thief side more, which makes sense considering how it's his most unique part, and Arsene fighting along with him is much cooler than casting spells in the background. Rebellion Gauge/Rebel's Guard is made-up, but they simply mirror guarding and SP in P5.

I wouldn't object another spell or a different way to fill your gauge, but I'm satisfied with what we have.

(Also let's not turn this into a discussion, it's already off-topic as it is)

 

[Idon]

Ah right, newcomer thread. Keep forgetting.

I guess we'll see what Nintendo's been keeping under wraps at E3 I suppose.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I'd like to pose a question to try to understand what the fandom's general opinion is.

Should Smash be Nintendo-focused, with third parties treated as guests? Or should Smash be a general gaming crossover, with first and third parties treated equally?

Just to be clear, I'm asking about what you want Smash to be, not what you think Smash is.

(If this turns out to be a big point of discussion I might make a thread about this)

I'm usually open to third parties, but now that they became so many that they're starting to overshadow the Nintendo characters, I'm quite against that.
Third parties should be guests, and only the most iconic characters should get a chance to appear in the game. Adding random characters from random franchises only because "they're popular" or for marketing reeasons is starting to mess up the identity of Smash (it already happend to be honest, time ago), it's starting to feel like MUGEN.

The point is, Smash as a general gaming crossover SUCKS, most of the characters are still from Nintendo, the representation is completely unbalanced. If you want to make Smash a general crossover, then you should cut 80% of the Nintendo characters and balance the other companies fairly. That may work, it's not what Smash was originally meant to be, but if they fully go in that route, it could make sense. What they have done now though, it's just not having a direction at all. Smash is still a Nintendo crossover, but there are a decent amount of random third parties, that are more and more with each iteration of Smash. But the representation is not balanced, so they feel out of place, it looks like as if someone modded them in.

So, I think that Smash should aim for a more coherent direction, a more solid identity; either make it a Nintendo crossover (with maybe a couple of historically important guests such as Sonic and Pac-Man), or go full third parties and make it so that all the companies are treated equally (which means cutting a lot of Nintendo characters).

I prefer the Nintendo route since I'm mostly a Nintendo fan myself.

 

[Koopaul]

The next game will probably cut most of the 3rd parties. It's hard to hold on to some of those guys for legal reasons. I can imagine most of the roster will be cut after Ultimate anyway. I doubt whatever team they get for the next game can balance a roster that keeps growing in size forever.

 

[TriggerX]

The next game will probably cut most of the 3rd parties. It's hard to hold on to some of those guys for legal reasons. I can imagine most of the roster will be cut after Ultimate anyway. I doubt whatever team they get for the next game can balance a roster that keeps growing in size forever.

Unfortunately if that’s the case, it’ll be a tough sale for those who are casual fans of the series. I personally am only interested in more characters, and could care less about additional stages and music.
If the next smash game was missing more than 5 characters, I’d be the type to skip out on it unless they introduce a brand new game play mechanic that changes the game completely.

 

[Nquoid]

I'm usually open to third parties, but now that they became so many that they're starting to overshadow the Nintendo characters, I'm quite against that.
Third parties should be guests, and only the most iconic characters should get a chance to appear in the game. Adding random characters from random franchises only because "they're popular" or for marketing reeasons is starting to mess up the identity of Smash (it already happend to be honest, time ago), it's starting to feel like MUGEN.

The point is, Smash as a general gaming crossover SUCKS, most of the characters are still from Nintendo, the representation is completely unbalanced. If you want to make Smash a general crossover, then you should cut 80% of the Nintendo characters and balance the other companies fairly. That may work, it's not what Smash was originally meant to be, but if they fully go in that route, it could make sense. What they have done now though, it's just not having a direction at all. Smash is still a Nintendo crossover, but there are a decent amount of random third parties, that are more and more with each iteration of Smash. But the representation is not balanced, so they feel out of place, it looks like as if someone modded them in.

So, I think that Smash should aim for a more coherent direction, a more solid identity; either make it a Nintendo crossover (with maybe a couple of historically important guests such as Sonic and Pac-Man), or go full third parties and make it so that all the companies are treated equally (which means cutting a lot of Nintendo characters).

I prefer the Nintendo route since I'm mostly a Nintendo fan myself.

I don't know, it feels like we're almost at equal representation. If we include echoes then Capcom and Konami have three each and Sega, whilst Bayonetta and Persona are made by Platinum and Atlus, fall under that umbrella bringing them to three.

Bandai Namco and Square Enix are the outliers with one each, but I'd also say that those two companies are locks to get at least one fighter in the pass each, bringing them to two.

Those 5 companies are the biggest game developers in Japan aside from Nintendo (and I'm sure they could throw in some content from DQVIII to throw Level-5 a bone if they aren't on the short list).

 

[Curious Villager]

I think Level-5 and Koei tecmo are the only notable Japanese companies left that don't have anything yet (unless you count the Fatal Frame chick as an Assist Trophy for the latter) Any other notable Japanese companies besides those that don't have anything yet?

I suppose there is Natsume and the guy who did Touhou if you count indies.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I think Level-5 and Koei tecmo are the only notable Japanese companies left that don't have anything yet (unless you count the Fatal Frame chick as an Assist Trophy for the latter) Any other notable Japanese companies besides those that don't have anything yet?

I suppose there is Natsume and the guy who did Touhou if you count indies.

SNK, Arcsys, From Software and Nippon Ichi.

 

[Curious Villager]

SNK, Arcsys, From Software and Nippon Ichi.

Oh Nippon Ichi is the one that did Disgaea right?

Thanks for bringing those up.

 

[Robdelia]

If we're gonna talk about Joker and Rebellion Gauge, I do think it has gameplay basis in Persona 5, but on a much larger scale than something like Once More which is straight-up a game mechanic. Rebellion Gauge IMO is a massive nod to how Persona 5 sorta hammers it home that the Phantom Thieves can't really do anything unless they have their Personas out and mess stuff up in the cognitive world. Hell, every party member is a character who's been screwed over hard in real life but gets revenge in the cognitive world.
This is why the Rebellion Gauge exists and why it's called that. Joker's entire kit is kinda balanced around the idea that he isn't that great at securing kills when he's by himself, but once Arsene (a visual representation for all his and his friends' Personas) comes out, he's a legitimate threat. Like how the villains of Persona 5 mock the Phantom Thieves in the real world but discover how terrifying they are in the cognitive world.
If you need some gameplay basis, just treat it as a renamed MP gauge.

 

[Arcadenik]

I prefer the Nintendo route since I'm mostly a Nintendo fan myself.

Well, then Sakurai needs to start adding Nintendo characters from Nintendo franchises like Advance Wars, Golden Sun, Chibi-Robo, The Legendary Starfy, Rhythm Heaven, Puzzle League (Panel de Pon), Mole Mania, The Mysterious Murasame Castle, NES Remix, Sin & Punishment, Pushmo, Dillon's Rolling Western, StreetPass Mii Plaza (for an actual Mii character instead of a generic Mii Fighter), Arms, and Nintendo Labo.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm assuming everyone has heard the news on Vergeben and Hitagi? It also brings into question Steve's chances.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

I'm assuming everyone has heard the news on Vergeben and Hitagi? It also brings into question Steve's chances.

I’ve kind of checked out of the whole insider scene since December, what’s going on now?

 

[Ornl]

I'm assuming everyone has heard the news on Vergeben and Hitagi? It also brings into question Steve's chances.

In April 25th, Vergebern said that Erdrick is definitely part of the Fighter’s Pass.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77661676?jumpto=72#72
He also posted another update on the Minecraft content rumor.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77661676?jumpto=104#104
He also said a few days ago that he’s not claiming to know what the 2nd DLC character to be revealed is, but felt that it would make sense if Erdrick was revealed at E3 and listed the reasons why. https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77647849?jumpto=30#30

 

[Door Key Pig]

Yeah. Both of them have their credibility shot hard. It will also bring Erdrick's chances into question. Katalina never had any chance anyways.

What happened exactly?

 

[RileyXY1]

What happened exactly?

I had that post deleted because it was useless speculation with no basis. Look at Ornl 's post to see what you want.

 

[Ovaltine]

In April 25th, Vergebern said that Erdrick is definitely part of the Fighter’s Pass.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77661676?jumpto=72#72
He also posted another update on the Minecraft content rumor.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77661676?jumpto=104#104
He also said a few days ago that he’s not claiming to know what the 2nd DLC character to be revealed is, but felt that it would make sense if Erdrick was revealed at E3 and listed the reasons why. https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77647849?jumpto=30#30

Sounds to me like Verge has no idea what he's talking about at all.

That being said, Erdrick is still very likely with all things taken into consideration, IMO.

 

[Deleted member]

In April 25th, Vergebern said that Erdrick is definitely part of the Fighter’s Pass.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77661676?jumpto=72#72
He also posted another update on the Minecraft content rumor.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77661676?jumpto=104#104
He also said a few days ago that he’s not claiming to know what the 2nd DLC character to be revealed is, but felt that it would make sense if Erdrick was revealed at E3 and listed the reasons why. https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77647849?jumpto=30#30

What happened now is that Hitagi said the Vergeben might be different people using an account, this is not the first time this claim has popped up. I'll link to the comment from Hitagi about Vergeben: https://www.reddit.com/r/Kappa/comm..._again_sf6_and_mvc4_are_in/eod8vu6/?context=3
"Regarding Vergeben, I've heard from a lot of sources that this person is actually a network of people collecting leaks from everyone. This persona vergeben is a shared account and they collect from insiders in the gaming industry. I'm gonna be honest I never shared real leaks or new info with them because I never really fully trusted them. At first I was a skeptic, but weary since I was warned. However, once they went to the ****ter with a bunch of wrong Nintendo leaks, I fully believed my sources about the Vergeben thing.

Edit: Also if people have ever wondered why wording between different posts sounded really different from Vergeben, it's because it's multiple people posting as well"

Vergeben responds and denies his claim:https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77733564?jumpto=35#35
"I have no issues with Hitagi so that is very weird that they seem to have issues with me now because people are in their ear telling them to? I don't understand that.

But the 'Vergeben is multiple people' conspiracy theory that Imran came up with will always be funny to me because he some how cannot seem to believe that one person can have multiple sources across multiple companies. I find that even funnier since Imran does too. rofl"

 

[cmbsfm]

What happened exactly?

Hitagi claims that the Vergeben account is run by multiple people who collect leaks from other sources. Vergeben denies this and is confused as to why Hitagi turned on him.

EDIT:Ninja’d

 

[Ovaltine]

Well, I will say one thing about the 'Vergeben is multiple people' claim:

That is a wacky freaking M. Night Shyamalan twist in the leak community if I've ever seen one.

 

[Deleted member]

Vergeben updates on the whole Minecraft on Smash: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77733564?jumpto=54#54
"I have said it on here and on reddit. People just ignored it. Even a YouTuber like PapaGenos used my post here on GameFAQs in a video recently. I don't know how people keep ignoring it.

I only know of Minecraft content coming at some point as DLC.

I cannot personally say or confirm that Steve is a DLC character like others have because the closest I heard was some skeptical hearsay that got passed around about seeing a character model which Hitagi heard the same and talked about it openly at one point

A character model / supposed build with Steve in Smash was only heard about once & not only was the person who told me about it skeptical.... but others I talk to that are sources of mine think the situation was a bit strange in how that info was going around & could have been leak bait that Steve is playable and that is how word got out to Hitagi.

All I know about Minecraft in Smash is that some kind of content that was agreed upon when Microsoft discussions happened. I cannot personally back that Steve is in. Not at this moment as I have said before. Because the situation behind the supposed character model is the closest I have personally heard on my side up to this point in time. Which the situation behind it sounds suspicious.

Does it mean Steve isn't in? No.
Does it mean Steve is in? I don't know.
It requires something more substantial than hearsay of a character model from one person that even they were skeptical of."

Vergeben clears out that he didn't leak the uncanny edition: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77723784?jumpto=261#261

More on the Minecraft content: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77733564?jumpto=65#65
"To sum it up it was through someone that a tester claimed it. But the timing of when they heard it combined with the datamine not having Steve makes it very suspicious & has been ever since. You see what I mean?
Unless Steve was actually worked on then scrapped to later be DLC and worked picked back up on post launch during the DLC cycle for the fighters pass, that is the only way to ever make sense of that tidbit of info back then getting out if was real and happened.
The funny part is how that could even have been a fabrication & yet Steve still wind up being one of the fighters pass characters for all we know.

The popular person can't be named for obvious reasons but that has been the only thing that's made me take Steve getting in seriously assuming they weren't duped too, which could have happened.

The Minecraft boss was a mix of actual information a source had jumping the gun assuming it was in at that point as the content during the first datamine."

If I remember correctly the Rathalos file in the game was named End_Dragon or something?

 

[RileyXY1]

Sounds to me like Verge has no idea what he's talking about at all.

That being said, Erdrick is still very likely with all things taken into consideration, IMO.

Not exactly. All the leakers assumed that the first Fighter Pass character will be an SE character and look what happened. Surprising things can happen, and leakers are people too. They can get things wrong, and Vergeben sure did back in February.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Well, I will say one thing about the 'Vergeben is multiple people' claim:

That is a wacky freaking M. Night Shyamalan twist in the leak community if I've ever seen one.

And it's a twist that's already been tried.

If I remember correctly the Rathalos file in the game was named End_Dragon or something?

Even if they are, it could refer to Rathalos being at the END of some characters' classic modes.

 

[Door Key Pig]

I guess it's just a matter of time before the "will it/will it not" for Erdrick is finally resolved then, with the big E3 shot for him less than a month away. Finally gonna see who Brave is, too. Maybe it could totally be him after all or at least some DQ character? Either way, after such long waiting, it'll be nice not only to finally get the next newcomer, but be given the hindsight to look over what previous things people have said to have hilariously aged badly; we could make a game out of it!

 

[GoodGrief741]

Unfortunately if that’s the case, it’ll be a tough sale for those who are casual fans of the series. I personally am only interested in more characters, and could care less about additional stages and music.
If the next smash game was missing more than 5 characters, I’d be the type to skip out on it unless they introduce a brand new game play mechanic that changes the game completely.

Then you've already missed out on half the Smash games. Cuts are a part of fighting games mate.

 

[Namasura]

This season of Game of Leaks sure is exciting, though it still pales in comparison to the original books.

 

[dezeray112]

On the Vergeben/Hitagi claims, all I'm going to say is that the plot thickens.

Anyways getting back on topic, on a scale of 1 to 10, how certain do you guys think that the remaining new characters within the season pass are going to be third party characters?

 

[RileyXY1]

I don't think that it is guaranteed that "Brave" will be Erdrick or anyone from Dragon Quest. Many characters fit the codename and the stats.

 

[Door Key Pig]

I mean, MAYBE Nintendo wanted at least one first party pick for the Fighter's Pass for all we know?

 

[Robdelia]

Vergeben's claims for Erdrick are falling apart at the seams and Hitagi is desperately trying to stay relevant. Vergeben's very own logic of "They can make Erdrick a big deal at E3" flies directly in the face of "Nintendo rearranged the entire DLC schedule just to avoid showing him off at the Game Awards". Why couldn't they just show Erdrick off at the Game Awards and make him a big deal then?
This just reeks of bull-crap and I'm 99% sure the community is going to get Grinch'd on Erdrick

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Oh man I hadn't even thought of One More as a mechanic, that would have worked great! Tbh just having Arsene as a stand a la the JoJo fighting game would have been enough, but One More actually feels like proper representation.

And yeah, giving characters meters makes characters needlessly complicated without making them more fun. With Robin I felt like tomes decaying was not necessary (having most of his special moves be chargeable is already a big differentiator from the rest of the cast) and kind of annoying. Little Mac's KO Meter also came out of nowhere, especially when it could have been a Star Punch mechanic and been more original and something from the actual games. And then came Joker and the Rebel Gauge. It feels like Sakurai's really overrelying on them (like counters).

Little Mac’s KO meter is easily the best meter for how simple and organic it is

 

[Nquoid]

Anyways getting back on topic, on a scale of 1 to 10, how certain do you guys think that the remaining new characters within the season pass are going to be third party characters?

I'm like 75% sure at this point. A lineup consisting of a Square, Namco, Microsoft, Ubisoft and/or Koei characters feels right, especially since all those companies already have content in the game (or in the case of Microsoft, those data mined Blast Corps and Jet Force Gemini spirits).

When it comes to Nintendo, I can't imagine them releasing anything first party unless it's cross promotional for a new game/remaster.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Well, then Sakurai needs to start adding Nintendo characters from Nintendo franchises like Advance Wars, Golden Sun, Chibi-Robo, The Legendary Starfy, Rhythm Heaven, Puzzle League (Panel de Pon), Mole Mania, The Mysterious Murasame Castle, NES Remix, Sin & Punishment, Pushmo, Dillon's Rolling Western, StreetPass Mii Plaza (for an actual Mii character instead of a generic Mii Fighter), Arms, and Nintendo Labo.

I would like this, honestly. Add Drill Dozer to the mix, nobody seem to remember of that assist trophy from Brawl. I have very good memories of that game... (Drill Dozer, not Brawl).