Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[thisjustin2001]

I fixed the roster:

View attachment 223203

Now all is right with the world. This feels like the definitive roster now. Now, how would you react if this was the final roster?

still think it's missing Toad (the last Nintendo All-Star currently not in Smash, or this roster) and an indie rep if we're going by third parties that are important to Japanese gaming.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I fixed the roster:

View attachment 223203

Now all is right with the world. This feels like the definitive roster now. Now, how would you react if this was the final roster?

It's a nice roster, though I have some personal preferences, I'd change some characters:
for example, I'd put Karate Joe instead of the Chorus Kids, and someone such as Artorias or Dragonslayer Ornstain instead of Solaire that indeed I think it's more popular for memes than for actual merits. I'm not familiar with some of the third parties in this roster, but Bub is a great idea (even though I'd make them an Ice Climbers like duo, Bub & Bob); it represents arcade games well too.

Dixie Kong and Tom Nook make the Nintendo side of the representation feel more complete, even though in order to be perfect, Imo it should have Pig Ganon, such an iconic character still not even referenced in the series so far (the boss does not use his classic design from Zelda 1, 2 and AlttP, and several other related games).

Lastly, I would add Adeleine because it's my most wanted character, and because I think her moveset would be very fun and unique. We have 2 artist assist trophies already, the concept of a fighter artist has potential, and Adeleine can have a moveset based on that.

 

[Ridrool64]

I missed talk with Arle... so I'll give my two cents now.

She's not impossible, but not likely, and arguably not plausible depending on how unlikely you see two characters from the same company as. If Joker weren't revealed I think that she would be considered the top SEGA character in terms of likelihood, except against maybe Tails (I'm certain she wouldn't OUTRANK Tails or even Joker in terms of popularity, but...). A second pass that's more of the same as the first would do wonders for her chances, but Kiryu is not to be slept on, and if Spirits start to show up or we get a second character from another series, there is Tails and Eggman as well. At best, she still has a decent chance, but Joker's put a number in things. At worst, it's "only above Goku" tier, or essentially the only thing keeping her, and pretty much anybody else from SEGA's library (or Atlus' library), from being somebody who you could say is a complete farce is that they debuted in a video game.

As for the indie (even if they're different, doujins are similar enough that I think they fall under the same general umbrella) topic, I still believe in Frisk over Reimu or Sans. It's safe to say that Undertale was not a flash in the pan, at least I think so, and that Frisk is just better at representing indies as a whole (and their game individually) than the other two. I think Reimu can get in, too, but I don't think she'll happen before Frisk, or Sans, who I can vaguely understand, or even Papyrus who I now recognize as a serious choice. I'm not confident on anybody else, don't think they'd happen before Shantae and Shovel Knight, who I don't think will happen before Undertale or Touhou.

The roster Blue posted was only missing Arle and now that she's there I'd take it in a heartbeat and never look back.

I asked this a fair while back to Reddit and would like to ask somewhere, but am unsure if it should go in general discussion, here, or warrants its own thread: Which character do you want the most that you would want in the game in any form (hypothetical DLC assist, Mii Costume, Spirit, hypothetical DLC boss, etc.), and are there any characters who you would only want in as playable?

 

[Gameboi834]

After looking at BluePikmin11 's roster I was inspired to make my own, so here it is! The characters with red borders are DLC characters, which aside from Piranha Plant and Joker are:

- Dixie Kong (Donkey Kong - Nintendo)
- Impa (The Legend of Zelda - Nintendo)
- Bandana Waddle Dee (Kirby - Nintendo)
- Chorus Kids (Rhythm Heaven - Nintendo)
- Phoenix Wright (Ace Attorney - Capcom)
- Sora (Kingdom Hearts - Square Enix)
- Rayman (Rayman - Ubisoft)
- Shantae (Shantae - WayForward)
- Frogger (Frogger - Konami)
- Banjo & Kazooie (Banjo & Kazooie - Microsoft)
- Ryu Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden and Dead or Alive - Tecmo)
- Geno ( Super Mario RPG - Square Enix)
- Professor Layton (Professor Layton - Level 5)
- AiAi (Super Monkey Ball - Sega)
- Doom Guy (Doom - Bethesda)

. If we get even two out of the ones in red I'll be happy, but I most want Rayman, Shantae and Phoenix Wright (Pursuit would be sooo cool to fight to).

EDIT: After some notes from Chinderblock, I went back and rearranged the roster (and added Ken back in). In order to keep it nice and neat, I decided to cut the Chorus Kids. Sorry boys!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

After looking at BluePikmin11 's roster I was inspired to make my own, so here it is! The characters with red borders are DLC characters. If we get even two out of the ones in red I'll be happy, but I most want Rayman, Shantae and Phoenix Wright (Pursuit would be sooo cool to fight to).

View attachment 223289

...Where's Ken? Like, you got everyone else, but it seems kind of weird he's missing while you still have Richter.

That said, I'd vastly prefer Rabbids over Rayman, and the order of characters look rather inconsistent. Echoes looked like they're by the character, but then sometimes it's not? Why is Dr. Mario next to Mario yet Dark Samus is next to Zero Suit Samus instead? Shouldn't Pichu also be next to Pikachu? Besides that, shouldn't Mewtwo be less at the end of the line, and before Lucario anyway? I can get why a few are in certain orders, like release order, or by series order, but it looks all over the place. The 3rd parties are also practically everywhere. They're not in any kind of regular order. Either by company or release order.

 

[Gameboi834]

...Where's Ken? Like, you got everyone else, but it seems kind of weird he's missing while you still have Richter.

That said, I'd vastly prefer Rabbids over Rayman, and the order of characters look rather inconsistent. Echoes looked like they're by the character, but then sometimes it's not? Why is Dr. Mario next to Mario yet Dark Samus is next to Zero Suit Samus instead? Shouldn't Pichu also be next to Pikachu? Besides that, shouldn't Mewtwo be less at the end of the line, and before Lucario anyway? I can get why a few are in certain orders, like release order, or by series order, but it looks all over the place. The 3rd parties are also practically everywhere. They're not in any kind of regular order. Either by company or release order.

Shoot, Ken I just totally forgot about. I started with the default Ultimate roster from the application, but it's out of date after E3 2018, hence why Ken is missing and some of the portraits are wrong.

I wanted to go by series again since that's what BluePikmin11 did, but some of the characters I did sorta mess up the order for, like you said. the 3rd parties are just randomly ordered, although the current 3rd parties are in a separate line. Imma go back and fix that and see what character gets the chopping block for Ken to come back in.

EDIT: I have done so in the original post.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Shoot, Ken I just totally forgot about. I started with the default Ultimate roster from the application, but it's out of date after E3 2018, hence why Ken is missing and some of the portraits are wrong.

I wanted to go by series again since that's what BluePikmin11 did, but some of the characters I did sorta mess up the order for, like you said. the 3rd parties are just randomly ordered, although the current 3rd parties are in a separate line. Imma go back and fix that and see what character gets the chopping block for Ken to come back in.

There's multiple ways to look at it. Even out the number of 3rd parties per company, for instance. It's hard to say, cause you have a decent and diverse line-up of them as is. You also have a few extra 1st parties that you could save for another time. Or make another row and just add more. Complete the Ubisoft line-up with their other mascots, the Rabbids, add in Steve to heavily complete the core Microsoft line-up(as well as Chief if you want), maybe Shovel Knight too. Shadow is another choice if you don't have an issue with AT's being added. Same with Isaac. And of course Toad, another missing All-Star. That's 7 already.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I asked this a fair while back to Reddit and would like to ask somewhere, but am unsure if it should go in general discussion, here, or warrants its own thread: Which character do you want the most that you would want in the game in any form (hypothetical DLC assist, Mii Costume, Spirit, hypothetical DLC boss, etc.), and are there any characters who you would only want in as playable?

Considering how neglected she has been so far, while I want her to be playable, I'd be fine with any form of representation of Adeleine.
On the other hand, characters such as Ganon or Geno, and possibly others, I don't care if they are referenced, I just care of them being playable. In Geno's case, after he recived a Mii costume in Smash 4, his mere representation is nothing special anymore, playable status would be.

--------------

Since some people are doing custom rosters, I did one myself too. It's an hypothetical roster for a new Smash, not DLC speculation.
Warning: it has a lot of cuts.
Warning 2: some bias has been applied, especially in cutting characters.

Characters with blue border are the default ones, characters with the red borders are the newcomers.
Sylux and Baby Bros (partially Toon Link as well) are kinda place holders and can possibly be cut/replaced, for more informations read the spoiler below.

Reasoning:

Spoiler

Mario: I have cut Daisy because she can be a skin of Peach. Same for Dr Mario. I have added Toad because I think he is an important character, he starred in a game (Cpt. Toad) and there are still some gameplay mechanics from Mario that can be represented by him; additionally, Toadette would be a skin.
I added E. Gadd because a new Luigi's Mansion game is coming, and I think the old guy has some potential if his moveset is made of gimmicks built by himself.
On a side note, Toad is just Toad, but Captain references are in his moveset as well, and the captain costume may be a skin for both Toad and Toadette.
Also, Luigi and E. Gadd may be separated into their own franchise.

Donkey Kong: Dixie is a natural addition. I also added Pauline since recently, thanks to Mario Odyssey, she has got quite some spotlight. Pauline is hard to think a moveset for, but I think she can include some mechanics from the Mario vs DK games, with the Mini toys being part of the moveset.

Zelda: I've cut Sheik, but not really. Sheik's moveset is Impa. I think it makes more sense to have Impa instead of Sheik to represent the Sheikah... but Sheik can be a skin if people don't want her to be cut completely. I assume that Young Link and Toon Link get decloned with moves inspired by their origin games (Ocarina and masks for Young Link, for example). Ganon is a completely different character than Ganondorf, and I also added Tetra as a Toon counterpart for Zelda (though her gameplay would be completely different). Tingle and Midna/Wolf Link are full newcomers as well, I think they are important enough to the franchise to deserve a spot, and they can have original gameplay too.
(I included him regardless, but...) Toon Link can be cut, since Nintendo seem to have abandoned the "toon" art style recently, in favor of new experimental art styles (Link's Awakening remake) or the classic style from the old games (A Link Between Worlds); also Tetra can represent the Toon games well without being a clone.

Metroid: I added Sylux, but this assuming that he will have an important role in Metroid Prime 4. If not, then he can be cut.
Obviously, Dark Samus can stay but it needs to be decloned. Phazon can be a character gimmick and maybe it can use the same physics as the Inkling's ink.

Yoshi: I added the Baby Bros. under the Yoshi franchise, but they are there more to represent the Mario RPG series, by referencing Partners in Time. They have moves based on hammers and jumping on enemies, team moves from the Mario&Luigi series and usage of consumable items. Some moves can be inspired by Yoshi's Island (such as the "Super" power-up in the game). If punching babies in the face is a problem, then they can be replaced by Paper Mario, with a similar gameplay (minus team moves maybe).

Kirby: I think this series can have at least 5 characters, right? I selected Adeleine & Ribbon (the roster maker didn't have an icon for the duo), and Magolor.
Adeleine was an important character in the Dark Matter trilogy, and her return in Star Allies made a big noise in the fanbase, while Magolor is the most important character of the modern series. Both have potential for a creative moveset full of Kirby references.
I've considered Waddle Dee too, but I don't like the idea of "Bandana" Waddle Dee, if they are going to be added to the roster, I think they should be as a species in general. Though, I think Waddle Dees don't fit well in a fighting game, they're usually paceful and passive, I think it would be out of character for a Waddle Dee to be promoted as a strong individual warrior ("Bandana" is really the only exception and not that relevant to the franchise as most fans make you think, the paceful and generic Waddle Dees are still the main image of Waddle Dee that HAL is promoting). Maybe a gimmick character that's a group of Waddle Dees fighting together in a clumsy way (also referencing the helpers system), that may work, but for now I just excluded them becaue I'm not sure what to do with them.

Star Fox: I've cut Falco, and I'm not particularly happy for that. But really, it's unfair to have Falco and not Peppy and Slippy. On the other hand, having the full Star Fox squad and every member plays similar, would be quite redundant. So I prefered to just cut him.
I added Krystal as I think she has way more gameplay potential than Falco and co.

Pokèmon: I have cut Jigglypuff, Greninja and Incineroar. I know that this will make fans angry, but let's face it, there are countless new pokèmon each generation, and some older ones become less relevant with the time. I think it's fair to cut some of the older ones in favor of new ones, and I honestly think that Greninja and Incineroar aren't important enough to deserve to stay, such as Pikachu or Mewtwo. Jigglypuff... he's gen 1, we already have Pikachu and Mewtwo... I know that Jiggly is iconic among fans, but it's not that important to the franchise, aside of the first season of the anime.
I left a question mark for new pokèmon to be added... if needed, even more than just one. Also, the starters of the Pokèmon Trainer should be replaced with the current gen ones.

Mother: I removed Lucas since he plays similar to Ness. I know... but I think the Mother series is not that important to deserve so many character, it's kinda like F-Zero, even more obscure probably. I added Porky in place of Lucas though, as I think he can be a cool villain in Smash.

Fire Emblem: I'm not an expert of Fire Emblem, so maybe I have cut the wrong characters... though I have cut every character that plays similar to another, and only kept the unique ones. Also, I have left a question mark for possible new characters from new games.

Kid Icarus: I have cut Dark Pit. He's a skin of Pit if you want, or just cut if you think his final smash doesn't match the character. I don't think he's necessary in the roster at all.

Animal Crossing: Added Tom Nook since he's the most important character after Villager himself. Not sure about the gameplay though, probably another Villager semiclone with moves that fit his personality better.

-Others-

Karate Joe: Rhythm Heaven rep. I think RH deserves a rep, and IMO Karate Joe is the best one. Chorus Kids may appear in his moveset anyway.

Mii: I have cut the Mii fighters in favor of a more standard Mii character, that has a moveset based on the Mii games. It can be considered in the same "group" as Wii Fit Trainer if you want, because the franchises kinda overlap.

Nintendo cuts: I've cut Little Mac since I think his moveset is a bit too basic and I don't like his gauge based KO move. I've cut Shulk because, you can disagree on this, but I think he's not really an iconic Nintendo character... also, since the new Xenoblade games have different characters, it's a situation where the character himself becomes less and less relevant as new games come out. A Cloud-wannabe, what's the point of having it when you have the original in the same roster? (sorry fans).

Third Parties: I've cut Snake, Ken, Bayonetta, the Belmonts and Joker.
All of them excluding Ken, I think they don't fit Smash thematically/stilistically, at all. Also, they aren't even that big as gaming icons (aside of maybe the Belmonts), they're from popular games but not iconic like Sonic or Pacman. Ken is an echo, I think the third party franchises shoud have only one character each, and especially not clones/semiclones.
I added Bub & Bob, Steve and Master Chief. Bub & Bob are from a classic and very popular series of videogames; Steve and Master Chief are from Microsoft... I know, there may be copyright issues, though they are pretty iconic, and Master Chief is the only realistic FPS rep that uses an art-style that fits Smash, IMO (the design of the weapons, armors and vehicles, the colors, etc).

Excluded ideas: Aside of the Star Fox crew and Waddle Dee/s, I also excluded a new Wario rep, because of the Land/Ware confusion and the fact that in order to represent the franchises well, I should have added at least 2 characters (Syrup and Ashley/Mona/?). I don't think the Wario franchise should get 3 or more characters alone, so I just dropped the idea, mostly because I tried to not add too many characters and to keep the total number of characters in a range where it's credible.
I also excluded Dark Souls, sadly... I admit it was mostly due to the layout of the character screen, but also because I already selected Master Chief as the "serious looking" character, and Dark Souls not having a main "mascotte" didn't help.
There may be more third parties that I excluded, some because I'm not familiar with the franchises, others simply because I prefer for Smash to stay as Nintendo-centric as possible.

Sorry if someone was offended by my choices or comments on the characters, this is just my vision and you can make another roster that fits your tastes better if you want.

I also would like to hear some feedback as long as it's not bashing for having a different opinion.

 

[Ornl]

First third-party games best sales in Japan by consoles (retake)
Only more 31 millions units. Only non-unique, non-mini-series and non-anime-based/music-based/sport-based/SIE-based Japan games.
Names in yellow mark licenses already appeared in Smash Bros.

Spoiler: NES

- Dragon Quest III (ChunSoft) 3.77M
- Final Fantasy III (Square) 1.39M
- Xevious (Namco) 1.27M
- Ganbare Goemon! Karakuri Douchuu (Konami) 1.20M
- Gradius (Konami) 1.00M
- Bomberman (Hudson Soft) 0.85M
- Pac-Man (Namco) 0.85M
- Castlevania (Konami) 0.62M
- Ghosts 'n Goblins (Micronics) 0.61M
- Mega Man 2 (Capcom) 0.42M
- Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei (Atlus Co.) N/A
- Momotaro Dentetsu (Famicom - ?) N/A
- Metal Gear (Konami) N/A
- Ninja Gaiden (Tecmo) N/A
- The Tower of Druaga (Namco) N/A

Spoiler: SNES

- Dragon Quest VI: Maboroshi no Daichi (Heart Beat) 3.19M
- Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (Capcom) 2.87M
- Final Fantasy III (SquareSoft) 2.55M
- Super Puyo Puyo (Compile) 1.69M
- Super Momotaro Dentetsu III (Hudson Soft) 0.91M
- Super Bomberman 2 (Produce!) 0.81M
- Torneko no Daibouken: Fushigi no Dungeon (ChunSoft) 0.78M
- Fatal Fury Special (Takara) 0.56M
- Romance of the Three Kingdoms IV: Wall of Fire (Koei / Inis) 0.53M
- Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts (Capcom) 0.52M
- Mega Man X (Capcom) 0.50M
- Space Invaders (Taito Corporation) 0.46M
- Samurai Shodown (Takara) 0.4M
- Shin Megami Tensei II (Atlus Co.) 0.37M
- Ganbare Goemon 3: Shishi Jyuurokubei no Karakuri Manji Katame (Konami) 0.36M

Spoiler: N64+NGC+Wii

- Monster Hunter Tri (Wii - Capcom) 1.05M
- Dragon Quest X (Wii - Square Enix) 0.97M
- Resident Evil Zero (NGC - Capcom / Flagship) 0.45M
- Monotaro Dentetsu 2010: Sengoku Ishin no Hero Daishuugou! no Maki (Wii - Hudson Soft) 0.41M
- Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles (NGC - Square Enix) 0.36M
- Fushigi no Dungeon: Furai no Shiren 2 - Oni Shuurai! Shiren Shiro! (N64 - ChunSoft) 0.32M
- Samurai Warriors 3 (Wii - Omega Force) 0.32M
- Bomberman 64 (N64 - Hudson Soft) 0.31M
- Tales of Symphonia (NGC - Namco Tales Studio) 0.31M

Spoiler: GB+GBA

- Dragon Quest Monsters (GB - TOSE) 2.34M
- Tamagotchi (GB - Tom Create) 1.44M
- The Final Fantasy Legend (GB - Square) 1.10M
- Mega Man Battle Network 4: Red Sun / Blue Moon (GBA - Capcom) 0.96M
- Medarot 2: Kabuto / Kuwagata Version (GB - Natsume) 0.54M
- Densetsu no Starfy (GBA - TOSE) 0.46M
- Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories (GBA - Jupiter Corporation) 0.35M

Spoiler: NDS

- Dragon Quest IX: Sentinels of the Starry Skies (Level 5) 4.35M
- Inazuma Eleven 2: Blizzard / Firestorm (Level 5) 1.18M
- Tamagotchi Connection: Corner Shop (NanaOn-Sha ) 1.12M
- Final Fantasy III (Matrix Software) 1.07M
- Professor Layton and the Curious Village (Level 5) 1.03M
- Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney (Capcom) 0.64M
- Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days (High Horse) 0.53M
- Mega Man Star Force Dragon / Leo / Pegasus (Capcom) 0.53M
- Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer (ChunSoft) 0.33M
- Momotaro Dentetsu DS: Tokyo & Japan (Hudson Soft) 0.34M

Spoiler: 3DS

- Monster Hunter 4 (Capcom) 3.44M
- Yokai Watch 2: Bony Spirits / Fleshy Souls / Psychic Specters (Level 5) 3.19M
- Dragon Quest XI (Square Enix) 1.82M
- Inazuma Eleven GO: Dark / Shine (Level 5) 0.48M
- Momotaro Dentetsu 2017: Tachiagare Nippon!! (Valhalla Game Studios) 0.40M
- Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Dual Destinies (Capcom) 0.38M
- Professor Layton and the Mask of Miracle (Level 5) 0.36M
- Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance (Square Enix) 0.34M
- Harvest Moon 3D: A New Beginning (Marvelous) 0.31M

Top ranking
Dragon Quest always appears, Final Fantasy appears in 5 rankings, Momotarou Dentetsu 4 rankings, Mega Man 3, Bomberman 3, Mystery Dungeon 3, and Kingdom Heart 3.
Capcom appears 10 times, Square 7, Level 5 6, Hudson Soft 5, Konami 4 and ChunSoft 4.

Spoiler: From Sega consoles

- Virtua Fighter 2 (SAT - Sega-AM2) 1.30M
- Sakura Wars (SAT - Overworks) 0.55M
- Sonic Adventure (DC - Sonic Team) 0.46M
- Shenmue (DC - Sega-AM2) 0.38M
- SoulCalibur (DC - Namco) 0.34M

Spoiler: From Sony consoles

- Tekken 3 (PS - Namco) 1.40M
- Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker (PSP - Kojima Productions) 0.96M
- Xenogears (PS - SquareSoft) 0.89M
- Yakuza 2 (PS2 - Sega) 0.84M
- Tales of Destiny (PS - Wolfteam) 0.83M
- Star Ocean: The Second Story (PS - tri-Ace) 0.72M
- Devil May Cry (PS2 - Capcom) 0.64M
- Soul Blade (PS - Namco) 0.46M
- Dark Souls (PS3 - From Software) 0.54M
- Persona 5 (PS4 - Atlus) 0.48M
- Xenosaga Episode I: Der Wille zur Macht (PS2 - Monolith Soft) 0.45M
- NieR: Automata (PS4 - PlatinumGames) 0.42M
- Dead or Alive 2 (PS2 - Team Ninja) 0.38M
- Time Crisis (PS - Namco) 0.33M

 

[RileyXY1]

Although, third parties don't have to be iconic Japanese characters. An international character can be added if Sakurai wants one.

 

[random rendum]

You know, I'm surprised Frogger doesn't get talked about more often. Another classic, household name Konami rep whose moveset would be pretty interesting (a tongue-based grappler, perhaps?). I'd be down for Frogger. With a render similar to this.

Spoiler

View attachment 223169

...TBH, I'd prefer if he was just a frog, like Duck Hunt.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Which character do you want the most that you would want in the game in any form (hypothetical DLC assist, Mii Costume, Spirit, hypothetical DLC boss, etc.), and are there any characters who you would only want in as playable?

At this point it would seem weird to implement characters outside of being a playable character, seeing as they have to go through the trouble of getting the rights.

I guess I would be okay with a DLC Professor Layton mii costume or assist if Jibanyan was a dlc character, still would be a bit disappointed. Same story with Phoenix and another Capcom character.

...TBH, I'd prefer if he was just a frog, like Duck Hunt.

personally my favorite design for Frogger is this one

The tie and briefcase really make him standout from being just a regular frog, while not completely redesign him to be too anthropomorphic.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Although, third parties don't have to be iconic Japanese characters. An international character can be added if Sakurai wants one.

I mean, while they series is in Japan, Dark Samus is literally created internationally.

We have one on a technical level. Same with King K. Rool.

Besides that, we have those with international personalities, like Bayonetta is European.

It's neat how much diversity we actually have if you look at the full character, not the company that made them.

 

[Ultomato]

Besides that, we have those with international personalities, like Bayonetta is European.

It's-a-me, Italian stereotype man!

 

[Ovaltine]

At this point it would seem weird to implement characters outside of being a playable character, seeing as they have to go through the trouble of getting the rights.

I guess I would be okay with a DLC Professor Layton mii costume or assist if Jibanyan was a dlc character, still would be a bit disappointed. Same story with Phoenix and another Capcom character.
personally my favorite design for Frogger is this one
View attachment 223374
The tie and briefcase really make him standout from being just a regular frog, while not completely redesign him to be too anthropomorphic.

This Frogger design is the best one. He looks like a good and ambitious fellow, a family man who just wants to work tirelessly to feed his tadpoles. I hope he finds success.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's-a-me, Italian stereotype man!

> TFW Mario has little personality beyond a stereotype.

On the other hand, he felt more characterized than Ryu did. If you take games only, Ryu is a very simplistic character. Mario at least got a far more determined attitude from the RPG and SSB series. So he feels like he has a bit more personality.

If you look at the cartoons they had, it's hard to say who had more. Ryu felt really the same, though. Mario was far more characterized.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Threw this scale chart together with Ganon. Feel free to use this with any other newcomers you can think of if you want to see how well they would compare.

 

[Deleted member]

Considering how neglected she has been so far, while I want her to be playable, I'd be fine with any form of representation of Adeleine.
On the other hand, characters such as Ganon or Geno, and possibly others, I don't care if they are referenced, I just care of them being playable. In Geno's case, after he recived a Mii costume in Smash 4, his mere representation is nothing special anymore, playable status would be.

--------------

Since some people are doing custom rosters, I did one myself too. It's an hypothetical roster for a new Smash, not DLC speculation.
Warning: it has a lot of cuts.
Warning 2: some bias has been applied, especially in cutting characters.

View attachment 223310

Characters with blue border are the default ones, characters with the red borders are the newcomers.
Sylux and Baby Bros (partially Toon Link as well) are kinda place holders and can possibly be cut/replaced, for more informations read the spoiler below.

Reasoning:

Spoiler

Mario: I have cut Daisy because she can be a skin of Peach. Same for Dr Mario. I have added Toad because I think he is an important character, he starred in a game (Cpt. Toad) and there are still some gameplay mechanics from Mario that can be represented by him; additionally, Toadette would be a skin.
I added E. Gadd because a new Luigi's Mansion game is coming, and I think the old guy has some potential if his moveset is made of gimmicks built by himself.
On a side note, Toad is just Toad, but Captain references are in his moveset as well, and the captain costume may be a skin for both Toad and Toadette.
Also, Luigi and E. Gadd may be separated into their own franchise.

Donkey Kong: Dixie is a natural addition. I also added Pauline since recently, thanks to Mario Odyssey, she has got quite some spotlight. Pauline is hard to think a moveset for, but I think she can include some mechanics from the Mario vs DK games, with the Mini toys being part of the moveset.

Zelda: I've cut Sheik, but not really. Sheik's moveset is Impa. I think it makes more sense to have Impa instead of Sheik to represent the Sheikah... but Sheik can be a skin if people don't want her to be cut completely. I assume that Young Link and Toon Link get decloned with moves inspired by their origin games (Ocarina and masks for Young Link, for example). Ganon is a completely different character than Ganondorf, and I also added Tetra as a Toon counterpart for Zelda (though her gameplay would be completely different). Tingle and Midna/Wolf Link are full newcomers as well, I think they are important enough to the franchise to deserve a spot, and they can have original gameplay too.
(I included him regardless, but...) Toon Link can be cut, since Nintendo seem to have abandoned the "toon" art style recently, in favor of new experimental art styles (Link's Awakening remake) or the classic style from the old games (A Link Between Worlds); also Tetra can represent the Toon games well without being a clone.

Metroid: I added Sylux, but this assuming that he will have an important role in Metroid Prime 4. If not, then he can be cut.
Obviously, Dark Samus can stay but it needs to be decloned. Phazon can be a character gimmick and maybe it can use the same physics as the Inkling's ink.

Yoshi: I added the Baby Bros. under the Yoshi franchise, but they are there more to represent the Mario RPG series, by referencing Partners in Time. They have moves based on hammers and jumping on enemies, team moves from the Mario&Luigi series and usage of consumable items. Some moves can be inspired by Yoshi's Island (such as the "Super" power-up in the game). If punching babies in the face is a problem, then they can be replaced by Paper Mario, with a similar gameplay (minus team moves maybe).

Kirby: I think this series can have at least 5 characters, right? I selected Adeleine & Ribbon (the roster maker didn't have an icon for the duo), and Magolor.
Adeleine was an important character in the Dark Matter trilogy, and her return in Star Allies made a big noise in the fanbase, while Magolor is the most important character of the modern series. Both have potential for a creative moveset full of Kirby references.
I've considered Waddle Dee too, but I don't like the idea of "Bandana" Waddle Dee, if they are going to be added to the roster, I think they should be as a species in general. Though, I think Waddle Dees don't fit well in a fighting game, they're usually paceful and passive, I think it would be out of character for a Waddle Dee to be promoted as a strong individual warrior ("Bandana" is really the only exception and not that relevant to the franchise as most fans make you think, the paceful and generic Waddle Dees are still the main image of Waddle Dee that HAL is promoting). Maybe a gimmick character that's a group of Waddle Dees fighting together in a clumsy way (also referencing the helpers system), that may work, but for now I just excluded them becaue I'm not sure what to do with them.

Star Fox: I've cut Falco, and I'm not particularly happy for that. But really, it's unfair to have Falco and not Peppy and Slippy. On the other hand, having the full Star Fox squad and every member plays similar, would be quite redundant. So I prefered to just cut him.
I added Krystal as I think she has way more gameplay potential than Falco and co.

Pokèmon: I have cut Jigglypuff, Greninja and Incineroar. I know that this will make fans angry, but let's face it, there are countless new pokèmon each generation, and some older ones become less relevant with the time. I think it's fair to cut some of the older ones in favor of new ones, and I honestly think that Greninja and Incineroar aren't important enough to deserve to stay, such as Pikachu or Mewtwo. Jigglypuff... he's gen 1, we already have Pikachu and Mewtwo... I know that Jiggly is iconic among fans, but it's not that important to the franchise, aside of the first season of the anime.
I left a question mark for new pokèmon to be added... if needed, even more than just one. Also, the starters of the Pokèmon Trainer should be replaced with the current gen ones.

Mother: I removed Lucas since he plays similar to Ness. I know... but I think the Mother series is not that important to deserve so many character, it's kinda like F-Zero, even more obscure probably. I added Porky in place of Lucas though, as I think he can be a cool villain in Smash.

Fire Emblem: I'm not an expert of Fire Emblem, so maybe I have cut the wrong characters... though I have cut every character that plays similar to another, and only kept the unique ones. Also, I have left a question mark for possible new characters from new games.

Kid Icarus: I have cut Dark Pit. He's a skin of Pit if you want, or just cut if you think his final smash doesn't match the character. I don't think he's necessary in the roster at all.

Animal Crossing: Added Tom Nook since he's the most important character after Villager himself. Not sure about the gameplay though, probably another Villager semiclone with moves that fit his personality better.

-Others-

Karate Joe: Rhythm Heaven rep. I think RH deserves a rep, and IMO Karate Joe is the best one. Chorus Kids may appear in his moveset anyway.

Mii: I have cut the Mii fighters in favor of a more standard Mii character, that has a moveset based on the Mii games. It can be considered in the same "group" as Wii Fit Trainer if you want, because the franchises kinda overlap.

Nintendo cuts: I've cut Little Mac since I think his moveset is a bit too basic and I don't like his gauge based KO move. I've cut Shulk because, you can disagree on this, but I think he's not really an iconic Nintendo character... also, since the new Xenoblade games have different characters, it's a situation where the character himself becomes less and less relevant as new games come out. A Cloud-wannabe, what's the point of having it when you have the original in the same roster? (sorry fans).

Third Parties: I've cut Snake, Ken, Bayonetta, the Belmonts and Joker.
All of them excluding Ken, I think they don't fit Smash thematically/stilistically, at all. Also, they aren't even that big as gaming icons (aside of maybe the Belmonts), they're from popular games but not iconic like Sonic or Pacman. Ken is an echo, I think the third party franchises shoud have only one character each, and especially not clones/semiclones.
I added Bub & Bob, Steve and Master Chief. Bub & Bob are from a classic and very popular series of videogames; Steve and Master Chief are from Microsoft... I know, there may be copyright issues, though they are pretty iconic, and Master Chief is the only realistic FPS rep that uses an art-style that fits Smash, IMO (the design of the weapons, armors and vehicles, the colors, etc).

Excluded ideas: Aside of the Star Fox crew and Waddle Dee/s, I also excluded a new Wario rep, because of the Land/Ware confusion and the fact that in order to represent the franchises well, I should have added at least 2 characters (Syrup and Ashley/Mona/?). I don't think the Wario franchise should get 3 or more characters alone, so I just dropped the idea, mostly because I tried to not add too many characters and to keep the total number of characters in a range where it's credible.
I also excluded Dark Souls, sadly... I admit it was mostly due to the layout of the character screen, but also because I already selected Master Chief as the "serious looking" character, and Dark Souls not having a main "mascotte" didn't help.
There may be more third parties that I excluded, some because I'm not familiar with the franchises, others simply because I prefer for Smash to stay as Nintendo-centric as possible.

Sorry if someone was offended by my choices or comments on the characters, this is just my vision and you can make another roster that fits your tastes better if you want.

I also would like to hear some feedback as long as it's not bashing for having a different opinion.

You took out Metal Gear and Castlevania? That's pretty terrible considering they had Many games on Nintendo consoles and a big presence on the industry. Some of the characters you've added aren't necessary and only add to franchises that don't need more fighters like Mario and Zelda. Although I do like how you downsized Fire emblem considering they have too many fighters. That's my take on it.

 

[Flyboy]

Considering how neglected she has been so far, while I want her to be playable, I'd be fine with any form of representation of Adeleine.
On the other hand, characters such as Ganon or Geno, and possibly others, I don't care if they are referenced, I just care of them being playable. In Geno's case, after he recived a Mii costume in Smash 4, his mere representation is nothing special anymore, playable status would be.

--------------

Since some people are doing custom rosters, I did one myself too. It's an hypothetical roster for a new Smash, not DLC speculation.
Warning: it has a lot of cuts.
Warning 2: some bias has been applied, especially in cutting characters.

View attachment 223310

Characters with blue border are the default ones, characters with the red borders are the newcomers.
Sylux and Baby Bros (partially Toon Link as well) are kinda place holders and can possibly be cut/replaced, for more informations read the spoiler below.

Reasoning:

Spoiler

Mario: I have cut Daisy because she can be a skin of Peach. Same for Dr Mario. I have added Toad because I think he is an important character, he starred in a game (Cpt. Toad) and there are still some gameplay mechanics from Mario that can be represented by him; additionally, Toadette would be a skin.
I added E. Gadd because a new Luigi's Mansion game is coming, and I think the old guy has some potential if his moveset is made of gimmicks built by himself.
On a side note, Toad is just Toad, but Captain references are in his moveset as well, and the captain costume may be a skin for both Toad and Toadette.
Also, Luigi and E. Gadd may be separated into their own franchise.

Donkey Kong: Dixie is a natural addition. I also added Pauline since recently, thanks to Mario Odyssey, she has got quite some spotlight. Pauline is hard to think a moveset for, but I think she can include some mechanics from the Mario vs DK games, with the Mini toys being part of the moveset.

Zelda: I've cut Sheik, but not really. Sheik's moveset is Impa. I think it makes more sense to have Impa instead of Sheik to represent the Sheikah... but Sheik can be a skin if people don't want her to be cut completely. I assume that Young Link and Toon Link get decloned with moves inspired by their origin games (Ocarina and masks for Young Link, for example). Ganon is a completely different character than Ganondorf, and I also added Tetra as a Toon counterpart for Zelda (though her gameplay would be completely different). Tingle and Midna/Wolf Link are full newcomers as well, I think they are important enough to the franchise to deserve a spot, and they can have original gameplay too.
(I included him regardless, but...) Toon Link can be cut, since Nintendo seem to have abandoned the "toon" art style recently, in favor of new experimental art styles (Link's Awakening remake) or the classic style from the old games (A Link Between Worlds); also Tetra can represent the Toon games well without being a clone.

Metroid: I added Sylux, but this assuming that he will have an important role in Metroid Prime 4. If not, then he can be cut.
Obviously, Dark Samus can stay but it needs to be decloned. Phazon can be a character gimmick and maybe it can use the same physics as the Inkling's ink.

Yoshi: I added the Baby Bros. under the Yoshi franchise, but they are there more to represent the Mario RPG series, by referencing Partners in Time. They have moves based on hammers and jumping on enemies, team moves from the Mario&Luigi series and usage of consumable items. Some moves can be inspired by Yoshi's Island (such as the "Super" power-up in the game). If punching babies in the face is a problem, then they can be replaced by Paper Mario, with a similar gameplay (minus team moves maybe).

Kirby: I think this series can have at least 5 characters, right? I selected Adeleine & Ribbon (the roster maker didn't have an icon for the duo), and Magolor.
Adeleine was an important character in the Dark Matter trilogy, and her return in Star Allies made a big noise in the fanbase, while Magolor is the most important character of the modern series. Both have potential for a creative moveset full of Kirby references.
I've considered Waddle Dee too, but I don't like the idea of "Bandana" Waddle Dee, if they are going to be added to the roster, I think they should be as a species in general. Though, I think Waddle Dees don't fit well in a fighting game, they're usually paceful and passive, I think it would be out of character for a Waddle Dee to be promoted as a strong individual warrior ("Bandana" is really the only exception and not that relevant to the franchise as most fans make you think, the paceful and generic Waddle Dees are still the main image of Waddle Dee that HAL is promoting). Maybe a gimmick character that's a group of Waddle Dees fighting together in a clumsy way (also referencing the helpers system), that may work, but for now I just excluded them becaue I'm not sure what to do with them.

Star Fox: I've cut Falco, and I'm not particularly happy for that. But really, it's unfair to have Falco and not Peppy and Slippy. On the other hand, having the full Star Fox squad and every member plays similar, would be quite redundant. So I prefered to just cut him.
I added Krystal as I think she has way more gameplay potential than Falco and co.

Pokèmon: I have cut Jigglypuff, Greninja and Incineroar. I know that this will make fans angry, but let's face it, there are countless new pokèmon each generation, and some older ones become less relevant with the time. I think it's fair to cut some of the older ones in favor of new ones, and I honestly think that Greninja and Incineroar aren't important enough to deserve to stay, such as Pikachu or Mewtwo. Jigglypuff... he's gen 1, we already have Pikachu and Mewtwo... I know that Jiggly is iconic among fans, but it's not that important to the franchise, aside of the first season of the anime.
I left a question mark for new pokèmon to be added... if needed, even more than just one. Also, the starters of the Pokèmon Trainer should be replaced with the current gen ones.

Mother: I removed Lucas since he plays similar to Ness. I know... but I think the Mother series is not that important to deserve so many character, it's kinda like F-Zero, even more obscure probably. I added Porky in place of Lucas though, as I think he can be a cool villain in Smash.

Fire Emblem: I'm not an expert of Fire Emblem, so maybe I have cut the wrong characters... though I have cut every character that plays similar to another, and only kept the unique ones. Also, I have left a question mark for possible new characters from new games.

Kid Icarus: I have cut Dark Pit. He's a skin of Pit if you want, or just cut if you think his final smash doesn't match the character. I don't think he's necessary in the roster at all.

Animal Crossing: Added Tom Nook since he's the most important character after Villager himself. Not sure about the gameplay though, probably another Villager semiclone with moves that fit his personality better.

-Others-

Karate Joe: Rhythm Heaven rep. I think RH deserves a rep, and IMO Karate Joe is the best one. Chorus Kids may appear in his moveset anyway.

Mii: I have cut the Mii fighters in favor of a more standard Mii character, that has a moveset based on the Mii games. It can be considered in the same "group" as Wii Fit Trainer if you want, because the franchises kinda overlap.

Nintendo cuts: I've cut Little Mac since I think his moveset is a bit too basic and I don't like his gauge based KO move. I've cut Shulk because, you can disagree on this, but I think he's not really an iconic Nintendo character... also, since the new Xenoblade games have different characters, it's a situation where the character himself becomes less and less relevant as new games come out. A Cloud-wannabe, what's the point of having it when you have the original in the same roster? (sorry fans).

Third Parties: I've cut Snake, Ken, Bayonetta, the Belmonts and Joker.
All of them excluding Ken, I think they don't fit Smash thematically/stilistically, at all. Also, they aren't even that big as gaming icons (aside of maybe the Belmonts), they're from popular games but not iconic like Sonic or Pacman. Ken is an echo, I think the third party franchises shoud have only one character each, and especially not clones/semiclones.
I added Bub & Bob, Steve and Master Chief. Bub & Bob are from a classic and very popular series of videogames; Steve and Master Chief are from Microsoft... I know, there may be copyright issues, though they are pretty iconic, and Master Chief is the only realistic FPS rep that uses an art-style that fits Smash, IMO (the design of the weapons, armors and vehicles, the colors, etc).

Excluded ideas: Aside of the Star Fox crew and Waddle Dee/s, I also excluded a new Wario rep, because of the Land/Ware confusion and the fact that in order to represent the franchises well, I should have added at least 2 characters (Syrup and Ashley/Mona/?). I don't think the Wario franchise should get 3 or more characters alone, so I just dropped the idea, mostly because I tried to not add too many characters and to keep the total number of characters in a range where it's credible.
I also excluded Dark Souls, sadly... I admit it was mostly due to the layout of the character screen, but also because I already selected Master Chief as the "serious looking" character, and Dark Souls not having a main "mascotte" didn't help.
There may be more third parties that I excluded, some because I'm not familiar with the franchises, others simply because I prefer for Smash to stay as Nintendo-centric as possible.

Sorry if someone was offended by my choices or comments on the characters, this is just my vision and you can make another roster that fits your tastes better if you want.

I also would like to hear some feedback as long as it's not bashing for having a different opinion.

I cannot believe you cut out icons with Nintendo presence who literally created genres in Metal Gear and Castlevania but added Baby ****ing Mario

 

[Curious Villager]

Threw this scale chart together with Ganon. Feel free to use this with any other newcomers you can think of if you want to see how well they would compare.
View attachment 223401

I suppose if the modding community ever came far enough, one could hypothetically use K.Rool as a base to develop Ganon as they seem to share a similar body build and proportions.

Now to hope if someone out there could make a cool Smash Ultimate styled classic Ganon from scratch...

 

[Flyboy]

I'm not gonna lie, if we hadn't just gotten Piranha Plant I'd love Donkey Kong Jr. as a wacky final pass pick, retro and fun.

 

[Robdelia]

I'm not gonna lie, if we hadn't just gotten Piranha Plant I'd love Donkey Kong Jr. as a wacky final pass pick, retro and fun.

Honestly, after noticing how DK's moveset doesn't really have a lot of references to the classic arcade game outside of his cargo grab, I started thinking about how exactly they could represent it. The best idea I came up with was Pauline as a newcomer who just acts as a vehicle for references to Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr, and Donkey Kong 3. With attacks like the hammer as smash attacks, summoning an oil barrel, using the Mini-Marios as weapons, and various other references to the series of games. Donkey Kong Jr could be somewhere in there, maybe in her taunts or riding on her back and throwing barrels for a side special.

 

[RouffWestie]

I cannot believe you cut out icons with Nintendo presence who literally created genres in Metal Gear and Castlevania but added Baby ****ing Mario

Hey, he's got Mario in his name. Mario is the face of gaming. Baby Mario is by extension more iconic than any other third party on the roster.

 

[osby]

Hey, he's got Mario in his name. Mario is the face of gaming. Baby Mario is by extension more iconic than any other third party on the roster.

Including PAC-MAN himself?

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly, a lot of these ideal rosters end up falling short as they just seem to add and remove characters randomly.

 

[Deleted member]

My dream roster would basically be Ultimate's but with Crash, Banjo and a DQ rep added to it.

 

[Robdelia]

My dream would just be uh... more third parties and Nintendo reps like Bandana Dee, Skull Kid, Isaac, Waluigi, etc...
Basically, if they just keep doing what they've been doing since the series was created and add cool characters from Nintendo and gaming as a whole, then that's A-Okay with me.

 

[Deleted member]

My dream would just be uh... more third parties and Nintendo reps like Bandana Dee, Skull Kid, Isaac, Waluigi, etc...
Basically, if they just keep doing what they've been doing since the series was created and add cool characters from Nintendo and gaming as a whole, then that's A-Okay with me.

For Nintendo picks, my most wanted would be Mach Rider, Pauline and Adeleine.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I mean, while they series is in Japan, Dark Samus is literally created internationally.

We have one on a technical level. Same with King K. Rool.

Besides that, we have those with international personalities, like Bayonetta is European.

It's neat how much diversity we actually have if you look at the full character, not the company that made them.

We do have characters that feel Western, but it'd still be nice to get a character from a Western company since they're cool as well. Not that I care that they're Western, I just like the character, but the possibility of a Western character never/being unlikely to get in is brought up often.

I may argue with people about Western characters and how likely they are sometimes, wanting to show how they may still have a good possibility, but I'll still respect what the other person thinks. What really bugs me, though, is when someone acts like "No Western-owned characters" is an official rule or when they act like Sakurai or NoJ are prejudiced against the West or something (admittedly this doesn't happen often, but it still bugs me the few times it does); I think stuff like this helped contribute to the arguments people have, getting into more than just Sakurai probably having issues with costs and honestly it's insulting to them.

I personally believe that if we don't get a Western-owned character, it will be more due to circumstance and such instead of actively avoiding Western characters despite having been to the West and talking to people from Western companies whether requiring a translator or not. As for the costs, he could possibly invite them over to Japan or have Nintendo help him with all this (if he really needs to stay in contact with them personally throughout development and not just have Nintendo relay information or something); of course, the costs may very well be so bad to the point where he'll decide to just focus on Japanese-owned characters instead of going for Western characters, but I'm not sure any of us really know what goes on behind the scenes for this stuff and how much it would really take.

 

[thisjustin2001]

GUYS! IT'S 20 MORE DAYS UNTIL NINTENDO'S E3 PRESENTATION!

 

[Icedragonadam]

GUYS! IT'S 20 MORE DAYS UNTIL NINTENDO'S E3 PRESENTATION!

And potentially less than 20 days for Smash news if it gets it own direct again for the DLC news like in 2015.

 

[Arcadenik]

I fixed the roster:

View attachment 223203

Now all is right with the world. This feels like the definitive roster now. Now, how would you react if this was the final roster?

Add the following:
Captain Toad
Toadette (Echo)
Team Rocket (Meowth, Ekans, Koffing)
Wandering Hero from StreetPass Mii Plaza: Find Mii I & II
Banjo-Kazooie
Scorpion
Sub-Zero (Echo? semi-Echo? semi-clone? I don't care, I want both)

Or at least just Toad and Meowth to that "definitive" roster and I will never ask Sakurai for anything ever again.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I also would like to hear some feedback as long as it's not bashing for having a different opinion.

I cannot believe you cut out icons with Nintendo presence who literally created genres in Metal Gear and Castlevania but added Baby ****ing Mario

never mind

by the way, I added the Baby Bros. to represent the RPG games (Mario & Luigi) and I said they can be replaced with Paper Mario.

I think that franchises such as Metal Gear (especially after the PSX game) and Castlevania don't fit the mood of Smash, that's it. I tried to keep the roster consistent with the balance of cartoony characters over realistic/anime humans, and I felt like those characters along with others ruined that balance.
(free to disagree, it's just my opinion).
Most of the characters I choose are from Mario and Zelda, it's hard to find another important Nintendo franchise that's not represented yet, it's all obscure ones and one shots. Rhythm Heaven is probably the last one and I covered that; additionally, while there are many characters already, some recurring characters of those 2 series are still missing, such as Ganon and Toad.
By the way, Zelda is currently very bad represented, with 3 of the characters being the same character with different stats. I don't think adding more Zelda characters is unnecessary, if anything, the problems are the 3 Links.

 

[Deleted member]

never mind

by the way, I added the Baby Bros. to represent the RPG games (Mario & Luigi) and I said they can be replaced with Paper Mario.

I think that franchises such as Metal Gear (especially after the PSX game) and Castlevania don't fit the mood of Smash, that's it. I tried to keep the roster consistent with the balance of cartoony characters over realistic/anime humans, and I felt like those characters along with others ruined that balance.
(free to disagree, it's just my opinion).
Most of the characters I choose are from Mario and Zelda, it's hard to find another important Nintendo franchise that's not represented yet, it's all obscure ones and one shots. Rhythm Heaven is probably the last one and I covered that; additionally, while there are many characters already, some recurring characters of those 2 series are still missing, such as Ganon and Toad.
By the way, Zelda is currently very bad represented, with 3 of the characters being the same character with different stats. I don't think adding more Zelda characters is unnecessary, if anything, the problems are the 3 Links.

There are still less way realistic/anime human characters than cartoony characters, especially after you added a lot more of the cartoony ones.

You also say that you choose most characters based on how the franchise is important to Nintendo and yet you remove most of the unique Pokemon from the roster that we had.

While I agree that more picks from Zelda would be nice, your roster makes the Zelda side bloated now. You even now say that 3 Links is a problem but you kept all three!!!

Dunno what can I tell you other than the only thing you could've said for making the roster is I removed things I don't like to add things I like. Your explanations sound more like an excuse.

 

[random rendum]

At this point it would seem weird to implement characters outside of being a playable character, seeing as they have to go through the trouble of getting the rights.

I guess I would be okay with a DLC Professor Layton mii costume or assist if Jibanyan was a dlc character, still would be a bit disappointed. Same story with Phoenix and another Capcom character.
personally my favorite design for Frogger is this one
View attachment 223374
The tie and briefcase really make him standout from being just a regular frog, while not completely redesign him to be too anthropomorphic.

Yup, this is the best design.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

You also say that you choose most characters based on how the franchise is important to Nintendo and yet you remove most of the unique Pokemon from the roster that we had.

Yes, because in the comments below I said that Jigglypuff, Greninja and Incineroar (outside Smash) aren't important pokèmon anymore (unlike Pikachu, Mewtwo and Lucario), so I cut them in favor of adding newer ones from the current gen. I said that all the starters of the trainer should be new, and the question mark may be more than 1 pokèmon newcomer. I didn't really cut pokèmon, I just replaced them with new ones. (new starters + 1 or 2 new pokèmon makes 4 or 5 newcomers, potentially more; the same amount or more of Zelda characters added, considering that Impa is not really a newcomer but a reskin).

While I agree that more picks from Zelda would be nice, your roster makes the Zelda side bloated now. You even now say that 3 Links is a problem but you kept all three!!!

I said I would like to cut Toon Link because Nintendo seems to have stopped to use the Toon style recently, and that anyway Tetra would already represent the Toon style well enough without being a clone. I didn't cut him because I know that people usually prefer him over Young Link, but I would have definitely cut him if it was just for me. I kept Young Link only in case of a revamped moveset that includes the use of masks and ocarina. The amount of Zelda characters in my roster are still less than the Mario characters we already have in the official roster, but if you prefer, Young Link and Midna can be cut for numbers reasons (I added Midna because she's a fan favorite and I think she would make just as much sense as Sheik/Rosalina).

Dunno what can I tell you other than the only thing you could've said for making the roster is I removed things I don't like to add things I like. Your explanations sound more like an excuse.

It's not just about what I like... I didn't put some characters I like (Syrup, Geno, Dark Souls rep, and others) and I kept others that I don't like much.
Most of the cuts are because I didn't want to have too many characters: the roster has 75 characters that's just a few more than what we currently have in Ultimate. Offcourse, the selection criteria of the cuts is influenced by my personal opinion on the characters/franchise they come from.
I overall tried to keep the characters who play unique and remove the clones, with some exceptions (mostly third parties, but a couple of Nintendo uniques as well, plus the pokèmon refresh).

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, because in the comments below I said that Jigglypuff, Greninja and Incineroar (outside Smash) aren't important pokèmon anymore (unlike Pikachu, Mewtwo and Lucario), so I cut them in favor of adding newer ones from the current gen. I said that all the starters of the trainer should be new, and the question mark may be more than 1 pokèmon newcomer. I didn't really cut pokèmon, I just replaced them with new ones. (new starters + 1 or 2 new pokèmon makes 4 or 5 newcomers, potentially more; the same amount or more of Zelda characters added, considering that Impa is not really a newcomer but a reskin).

Most of the Zelda newcomers you added like Midna aren't as important anymore. Plus Pokemon are always relevant given that they are never removed from following entries. Pokemon is the second biggest franchise Nintendo has and Pokemon like Jigglypuff and Greninja are popular enough that they even appeared in the live-action film.

I said I would like to cut Toon Link because Nintendo seems to have stopped to use the Toon style recently, and that anyway Tetra would already represent the Toon style well enough without being a clone. I didn't cut him because I know that people usually prefer him over Young Link, but I would have definitely cut him if it was just for me. I kept Young Link only in case of a revamped moveset that includes the use of masks and ocarina. The amount of Zelda characters in my roster are still less than the Mario characters we already have in the official roster, but if you prefer, Young Link and Midna can be cut for numbers reasons (I added Midna because she's a fan favorite and I think she would make just as much sense as Sheik/Rosalina).

It's not a matter of being less than the Mario ones, it's just that a lot of the Zelda picks seem to be added just to add new characters.

It's not just about what I like... I didn't put some characters I like (Syrup, Geno, Dark Souls rep, and others) and I kept others that I don't like much.
Most of the cuts are because I didn't want to have too many characters: the roster has 75 characters that's just a few more than what we currently have in Ultimate. Offcurse, the selection criteria of the cuts is influenced by my personal opinion on the characters/franchise they come from.
I overall tried to keep the characters who play unique and remove the clones, with some exceptions (mostly third parties, but a couple of Nintendo uniques as well, plus the pokèmon refresh).

Feels quite biased and still pretty much a roster just with characters you like or characters that you feel make the roster "balanced" without rhyme or reason. You claim to "keep the characters who play unique" but ultimately removed characters like Little Mac, Greninja, Shulk and Incineroar who all play quite uniquely only because you don't feel them important.

(Plus now that I see it, you had no issues adding MC even when he has less presence on Nintendo than Snake so the argument about Snake is mostly preference)

 

[Robdelia]

Made a hypothetical roster for the next game. Only cut character is Cloud due to complications with Square-Enix and devalued importance due to "everyone is here" no longer being the tagline. This is also why there are no Square-Enix newcomers. I would love to be proven wrong and keep him in the next game but sadly I don't think that will be the case.
Green = Newcomer.
Red = New echo fighter.
Yellow = This character has undergone a redesign, either as small as giving Ganondorf a new set of specials or more drastic like re-doing Kirby completely so that every move he has is a reference to a copy ability, like Mega Man.
Last four blue characters past Joker = who I think will be DLC for Ultimate.
Takumaru and Rusty are the retro/joke characters respectively. No way in hell do I believe that every green character could be added to the game at once, hence why I think this is more of a tempered wishlist than anything.

 

[Ultomato]

View attachment 223510
Made a hypothetical roster for the next game. Only cut character is Cloud due to complications with Square-Enix and devalued importance due to "everyone is here" no longer being the tagline. This is also why there are no Square-Enix newcomers. I would love to be proven wrong and keep him in the next game but sadly I don't think that will be the case.
Green = Newcomer.
Red = New echo fighter.
Yellow = This character has undergone a redesign, either as small as giving Ganondorf a new set of specials or more drastic like re-doing Kirby completely so that every move he has is a reference to a copy ability, like Mega Man.
Last four blue characters past Joker = who I think will be DLC for Ultimate.
Takumaru and Rusty are the retro/joke characters respectively. No way in hell do I believe that every green character could be added to the game at once, hence why I think this is more of a tempered wishlist than anything.

Personally I don't see Shadow Mario, Loui, Hilda and Miss Pacman happening and I Linda expect Zero over Protoman.

Beyond that it looks really cool. I like how Lucina is a Chrom echo in this version

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Most of the Zelda newcomers you added like Midna aren't as important anymore. Plus Pokemon are always relevant given that they are never removed from following entries. Pokemon is the second biggest franchise Nintendo has and Pokemon like Jigglypuff and Greninja are popular enough that they even appeared in the live-action film.

There are a lot of popular Pokèmon though, popularity is not the only factor that should be considered. You know, those pokèmon are popular because of Smash, if you put a new pokèmon in Smash, that new one will become popular too. I just think it's worthless to keep the roster full of old pokèmon if they aren't meaningful to the franchise aside of being popular because of being in smash.

It's not a matter of being less than the Mario ones, it's just that a lot of the Zelda picks seem to be added just to add new characters.

-Impa appears in a big amount of Zelda games, and she's a way better representant of the Sheikah than Sheik is, who appears in just one game.
She's not really a newcomer in my roster, I replaced Sheik because I think Impa is more important and can use the same moveset.
-Ganon is the main villain and a classic character. He appeared (with that specific design) in Zelda 1, Zelda 2, A Link to the Past, Link's Awakening (cameo), Oracles linked, Four Sword Adventure, and A Link Between Worlds; way more than Ganondorf did, and the fact that he appeared in the series' original games make him a deserving character by default.
-Tetra is basically Toon Sheik. The big difference with Sheik, is that Tetra has been used for promotional arts many times, and IMO is the best character to represent the Toon side of the franchise (as I said, I would cut Toon Link for her).
-Tingle has been an important charater in the series for many years. He even got some spin-off games starring as the main character; in occident, only one of those games came out, but in Japan it had a sequel and a Balloon Fight reskin with Tingle came out on DS as well. Now he's not much relevant anymore, but just like King K Rool, it doesn't matter much as long as he has an history.

Midna is the only character that I added "for the sake of it", because she is popular and because the wolf can have unique gameplay. I can Remove Young Link, Toon Link and Midna form the list if you prefer, but the other characters all make sense IMO.

Feels quite biased and still pretty much a roster just with characters you like or characters that you feel make the roster "balanced" without rhyme or reason. You claim to "keep the characters who play unique" but ultimately removed characters like Little Mac, Greninja, Shulk and Incineroar who all play quite uniquely only because you don't feel them important.

(Plus now that I see it, you had no issues adding MC even when he has less presence on Nintendo than Snake so the argument about Snake is mostly preference)

I said there are exceptions. I think "everyone is here" is stupid for Pokèmon because there are countless new pokèmon each gen and if you keep them all you either will end with 100 pokèmon in the roster or you will need to avoid adding new ones because there are already too many (both cases are bad).
Unique or not, I'm convinced that pokèmon is better to be refreshed, and I'm sure that some day it will inevitably be.
I have cut Little Mac for the moveset, not for being unimportant. I think he has a very weak and boring moveset, and the KO move is cheap. He's the only character cut for this reason, by the way.

Master Chief is more of a "Mascotte" than Snake is though. Also the art style of Halo is more fitting: the armors of the spartans are colorful, and so are the weapons and vehicles they use (especially the alien ones), and they all have original and iconic designs; this IMO make him and the franchise overall fit better with the roster full of cartoony characters. Snake on the other hand looks like a realistic soldier who uses realistic weapons.

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