Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[MissingGlitch]

I think the only promotional thing they did with the fighter pass was making the DQ11 Protag the default skin for hero.

Which is such a small thing in the grand scheme of things that it really doesn't matter. I guarantee he was always going to be a skin regardless. They just made it the default since the game was coming out around the same time as the reveal/release.

 

[Flyboy]

It's worth noting that in all the 2ch threads about the Brave datamine and DQ rumors a lot of the sentiment was "Dragon Quest would be amazing in Smash but because the series isn't huge in the West I don't see it happening". It's a strong possibility that the fanbase just kept their heads down, much like Joker's fanbase, because it didn't really seem possible.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think the only promotional thing they did was the fighter pass is making the DQ11 Protag the default skin for hero.

Which is such a small thing in the grand scheme of things that it really doesn't matter. I guarantee he was always going to be a skin regardless. They just made it the default.

It's also telling Luminary wasn't even the one who got the Final Smash in their trailer nor is Luminary the one who got the Kirby hat, that's Arusu's honour

 

[SKX31]

It's right here on how they conducted their poll. I know polls isn't the definitive answers, but it does give a good idea on what people are thinking and what characters are talked about the most. Looking through there isn't a mention of Dragon Quest, if the series was really requested back in 2015 then we would've saw some kind of mention more prominently back then instead of how support for it really took off in 2019 when Brave was datamined.
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/09/13/japantopdlcpt2/

Beyond what Schnee117 said:

* The DQ Heroes (Luminary, Erdrick, Solo, Eight etc.) themselves could easily have had their "points" split just as they were here. Do note that before Hero's reveal a lot of attention was on Erdrick alone while Luminary was considered a separate option here (the old Square Seven thread has a poll separating the two). Slime only splits this further.

* Smash is the first time the Heroes have appeared in a crossover and fought each other - before that, it's been DQ's other main characters making the crossover appearances (such as Fortune Street). What's seen as "possible" is often based on what people believe is posssible, after all. See the point
Flyboy made.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I wonder if quantum physicists have to re-write their understanding of reality as much as us in the speculation scene do.

 

[wynn728]

Okay, let's ignore the fact that they mention Smash Bros during the PAX West Dragon Quest XI S Panel when they were talking all about Dragon Quest. Let's ignore how they also mention Smash Bros when they introduced Dragon Quest XI S in the September Direct. Saying that Hero inclusion wasn't used to promote Dragon Quest XI S is like saying the Corrin's inclusion wasn't used to promote Fire Emblem Fates.

Regarding Hero from #DragonQuest XI S in #SmashBrosUltimate, Mr. Sakurai was very passionate & knowledgeable about the series and approached the team. The Square-Enix devs suggested adding alternate skins for the Heroes from 3, 4, & 8. The end result exceeded their expectations. pic.twitter.com/dUZpIkCsdX

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) August 31, 2019

 

[MissingGlitch]

Okay, let's ignore the fact that they mention Smash Bros during the PAX West Dragon Quest XI S Panel when they were talking all about Dragon Quest. Let's ignore how they also mention Smash Bros when they introduced Dragon Quest XI S in the September Direct. Saying that Hero inclusion wasn't used to promote Dragon Quest XI S is like saying the Corrin's inclusion wasn't used to promote Fire Emblem Fates.

Regarding Hero from #DragonQuest XI S in #SmashBrosUltimate, Mr. Sakurai was very passionate & knowledgeable about the series and approached the team. The Square-Enix devs suggested adding alternate skins for the Heroes from 3, 4, & 8. The end result exceeded their expectations. pic.twitter.com/dUZpIkCsdX

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) August 31, 2019

There is a huge difference in picking a character just for promotion's sake (Corrin) and making a character and deciding some promotion can be done.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Okay, let's ignore the fact that they mention Smash Bros during the PAX West Dragon Quest XI S Panel when they were talking all about Dragon Quest. Let's ignore how they also mention Smash Bros when they introduced Dragon Quest XI S in the September Direct. Saying that Hero inclusion wasn't used to promote Dragon Quest XI S is like saying the Corrin's inclusion wasn't used to promote Fire Emblem Fates.

Regarding Hero from #DragonQuest XI S in #SmashBrosUltimate, Mr. Sakurai was very passionate & knowledgeable about the series and approached the team. The Square-Enix devs suggested adding alternate skins for the Heroes from 3, 4, & 8. The end result exceeded their expectations. pic.twitter.com/dUZpIkCsdX

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) August 31, 2019

Nobody's saying their inclusion didn't promote it, but rather that it's not the only factor like Hero haters claim it is

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's also telling Luminary wasn't even the one who got the Final Smash in their trailer nor is Luminary the one who got the Kirby hat, that's Arusu's honour

That's actually a very similar headpiece, but it's from Erdwin. With also the Supreme Sword of Light and Erdwin's Shield. It's a Luminary-based costume overall.

It's pretty obvious Erdwin's equipment was designed to reference Erdrick, though.

But yeah, Erdrick was meant to be one of the core two costumes, so him leading off the Final Smash makes sense. A secondary player to Luminary, but still important. The other two are lesser but still notable costumes in their own way.

There is a huge difference in picking a character just for promotion's sake (Corrin) and making a character and deciding some promotion can be done.

Actually, that's not true entirely. Corrin also had the factor of "the moveset being important". They only got in in the end because Sakurai's team convinced him he could have a unique moveset. Sakurai was hesitant due to a lot of FE characters lately.

No character has gotten in purely for the sake of promotion. It's been a factor before, though. But just a factor. Hero is one of the ones where it isn't a factor that we can figure out(who the face was, on the other hand, could be promotion-related. But it's also the latest face and easy to recognize worldwide, so that may have something to do with it).

 

[Megadoomer]

Okay, let's ignore the fact that they mention Smash Bros during the PAX West Dragon Quest XI S Panel when they were talking all about Dragon Quest. Let's ignore how they also mention Smash Bros when they introduced Dragon Quest XI S in the September Direct. Saying that Hero inclusion wasn't used to promote Dragon Quest XI S is like saying the Corrin's inclusion wasn't used to promote Fire Emblem Fates.

Regarding Hero from #DragonQuest XI S in #SmashBrosUltimate, Mr. Sakurai was very passionate & knowledgeable about the series and approached the team. The Square-Enix devs suggested adding alternate skins for the Heroes from 3, 4, & 8. The end result exceeded their expectations. pic.twitter.com/dUZpIkCsdX

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) August 31, 2019

Hero's inclusion was used to promote Dragon Quest XI (it seems like that's a big part in why Luminary is the default costume), but you're acting like it was the only reason why Hero was included, which makes it seem like you're ignoring Dragon Quest's long history and massive influence on the RPG genre (not to mention its popularity in Japan, which would have also played a part and likely given DQ characters a lot of support in Japanese Smash Ballot entries) to force a certain narrative about Smash Ultimate's DLC.

 

[Garteam]

I'd imagine Dragon Quest preformed similarly to how Castlevania and Final Fantasy did on the ballot: There wasn't a specific character from the series that lit up the polls, but tallying all the candidates from the series together gave enough support to rival the big names on the ballot.

Likewise, a good chunk of Dragon Quest's support likely came from casual fans who likely vote then move onto the next thing, instead of megafans who go to ****post about their choice on Twitter. Seeing how Dragon Quest is a cultural phenomenon over there, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people saw the ballot and went "Cool, I'll take 5 seconds out of my day to vote for my favourite DQ Hero because I grew up playing their games or Slime because he's cute and I like Dragon Quest".

As Flyboy noted, there was also a large number of Japanese fans that liked the idea of Dragon Quest in Smash but thought it was impossible either due to lack of Western support or rights issues, leading them to engage in strategic voting and put their voice towards a character who was thought to have a better shot. There probably were some hardcore fans who voted for DQ, but it was likely the casual base that made DQ the ballot giant that fanpolls couldn't pick up on.

On a side note, I'm extremely thankful that Dragon Quest is in Smash. Seriously, after Mega Man, no series deserves to be a guest in the Nintendo crossover more than Dragon Quest.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'd imagine Dragon Quest preformed similarly to how Castlevania and Final Fantasy did on the ballot: There wasn't a specific character from the series that lit up the polls, but tallying all the candidates from the series together gave enough support to rival the big names on the ballot.

Likewise, a good chunk of Dragon Quest's support likely came from casual fans who likely vote then move onto the next thing, instead of megafans who go to ****post about their choice on Twitter. Seeing how Dragon Quest is a cultural phenomenon over there, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people saw the ballot and went "Cool, I'll take 5 seconds out of my day to vote for my favourite DQ Hero because I grew up playing their games or Slime because he's cute and I like Dragon Quest".

As Flyboy noted, there was also a large number of Japanese fans that liked the idea of Dragon Quest in Smash but thought it was impossible either due to lack of Western support or rights issues, leading them to engage in strategic voting and put their voice towards a character who was thought to have a better shot. There probably were some hardcore fans who voted for DQ, but it was likely the casual base that made DQ the ballot giant that fanpolls couldn't pick up on.

On a side note, I'm extremely thankful that Dragon Quest is in Smash. Seriously, after Mega Man, no series deserves to be a guest in the Nintendo crossover more than Dragon Quest.

Ehhhh the Castlevania comparison feels a tad iffy imo cause Sakurai outright said Alucard was the most popular character from the franchise to get in, whereas with FF and likely DQ the most popular result became playable. Could just be me reading too much into the post though

 

[SKX31]

Okay, let's ignore the fact that they mention Smash Bros during the PAX West Dragon Quest XI S Panel when they were talking all about Dragon Quest. Let's ignore how they also mention Smash Bros when they introduced Dragon Quest XI S in the September Direct. Saying that Hero inclusion wasn't used to promote Dragon Quest XI S is like saying the Corrin's inclusion wasn't used to promote Fire Emblem Fates.

Even amongst the CEOs marketing and promotions aren't the only thing they'd look for - for Furukawa and Nintendo, characters are also opportunities for companies to build / reaffirm bridges with each other. , incidentally enough, helps build a bridge with Microsoft for instance. If anything, Nintendo's execs learned quite a bit with the reactions to Corrin and have adjusted accordingly. Gaining new fans and reaffirming existing fans are also major objectives with the characters.

And that's ignoring Furukawa himself. He climbed Nintendo's ranks via NoE and the Pokemon Company before becoming President (EDIT: And Ultimate's Executive Producer - Furukawa's the man above Sakurai technically speaking), so he knows how Nintendo's machine ticks. He may be a marketing guy; but he also grew up on the Famicom - not only is he loyal to Nintendo, he's guaranteed to know how much DQ impacted Japanese culture and the RPG genre as a whole.

 

[Garteam]

Ehhhh the Castlevania comparison feels a tad iffy imo cause Sakurai outright said Alucard was the most popular character from the franchise to get in, whereas with FF and likely DQ the most popular result became playable. Could just be me reading too much into the post though

According to Source Gaming, it was Castlevania that performed very well in the ballot, but Sakurai later notes that Alucard is the most recognizable character in the series.

[Castlevania] was highly requested in the Smash Ballot, and when it came time to add new content Sakurai says his choices were limited.

(see next) pic.twitter.com/T2wx5aGnLf

— Source Gaming (@AllSourceGaming) December 17, 2018

This is totally speculation, but here's my guess on things went down with Castlevania: The idea of Sakurai adding a Castlevania character came up when looking for series with consistent results in the ballot. Of all the Castlevania characters, Alucard performed the best on the ballot and thusly Sakurai began playing around with a potential moveset in his head. However, he didn't like the idea of having a Castlevania character that didn't use the Vampire Killer, so he scrapped Alucard to instead work on a Belmont.

 

[Fenriraga]

As has been stated by Sakurai himself and shown in the past, using Dragon Quest protagonists in anything other than their respective games is NOT an easy task, especially if it involves them fighting each other. Almost none of Dragon Quests many, many "Hero"s have ever shown up in spinoffs, if not ever, honestly. Not with Final Fantasy, and not even with Mario in the likes of Fortune Street, let alone the other spinoffs.

If you ask me, I bet you a DQ rep would have happened much sooner were it not for that fact. We already know Hero was planned for the Base Roster but couldn't make it do to the ever-so-wonderful-war-crime-denying composer, but if you don't think the ballots haven't been absolutely FLOODED with DQ requests since Brawl introduced third parties, you're mistaken. Dragon Quest is as big over there as most celebrities are over here.

No duh marketing had a play in it, it ALWAYS does, even with Banjo as much as people would want to deny it, but it was convinient timing for Square above all else. It's not like DQ11 S is a new game entirely, 11 has been out for a fair bit. We would not have gotten the other Heroes and their respective tunes if this was a marketing gimmick. He went out of his way to say that 8 was included since he was a frequent pick from the Western audience. Because yes, the west does have a following too.

 

[BernkastelWitch]

I'm still a bit disappointed at how divisive Hero's inclusion was, given how influential Dragon Quest is. Between that and the surprising divisiveness on Terry's inclusion and people not realizing how big of a deal SNK is, it affirmed my beliefs that the fifth character, no matter who it is will be controversial for a period of time.

But hey, I am glad both got in, personally speaking.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm still a bit disappointed at how divisive Hero's inclusion was, given how influential Dragon Quest is. Between that and the surprising divisiveness on Terry's inclusion and people not realizing how big of a deal SNK is, it affirmed my beliefs that the fifth character, no matter who it is will be controversial for a period of time.

But hey, I am glad both got in, personally speaking.

Most of the divisive nature is "WAAHHHHHH NOT WHAT I SPECIFICALLY ASKED FOR WAHHHHHHHH"

 

[BernkastelWitch]

Most of the divisive nature is "WAAHHHHHH NOT WHAT I SPECIFICALLY ASKED FOR WAHHHHHHHH"

Knowing those people, they'd find a reason to whine even if the character they want gets in somehow. There's no pleasing that group.

 

[osby]

Knowing those people, they'd find a reason to whine even if the character they want gets in somehow. There's no pleasing that group.

Hero was revealed along with Banjo, so you're not wrong.

 

[MooMew64]

I still think Hero is the most fun Smash Bros. character ever. I'm beyond happy DQ made it in. Did they use it as an opportunity to do some marketing? Of course they did, but literally every Smash newcomer does this lol. Also, anyone who thinks Hero is a shill pick is completely ignoring the fact DQ has a huge legacy, is pretty much the father of JRPGs, and has some of the strongest histories with Nintendo you could ask for.

 

[Schnee117]

Hero was revealed along with Banjo, so you're not wrong.

Never forget the brief period of time between Hero and Banjo

 

[blackghost]

people will always find a way to call some character a shill pick. the only legit shill character inclusions in smash history are probably corrin and roy.

DQ is the third biggest rpg series ever. its not a shill inclusion.

we have these poll discussions ever couple of months. some fanbases aren't desperate to get acknowledged because their series is already historic. a smash inclusion isn't the end all be all.

lastly we already know the smash/Nintendo fanbase is super insular and if its not a nintnedo classic character its too "niche" to get in. same old same old.

 

[Gentlepanda]

Never forget the brief period of time between Hero and Banjo

ah yes

the 40 minutes of madness

 

[Us3inMN]

We already know Hero was planned for the Base Roster but couldn't make it do to the ever-so-wonderful-war-crime-denying composer,

I'm curious - who else was planned for the Base Roster and ended up as DLC/scrapped entirely?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

people will always find a way to call some character a shill pick. the only legit shill character inclusions in smash history are probably corrin and roy.

DQ is the third biggest rpg series ever. its not a shill inclusion.

Funny thing is Roy is more just luck in that regard. They wanted a quick clone. It was then suggested to use a character from an upcoming game. It could've been anyone, but if there was no clone spot, Roy would've stood no chance.

Corrin's thing is it could've been any upcoming game. It's the moveset that won out in the end more than anything else.

...So basically the moveset is a core factor in both cases. Funny that.

Yeah, the closest thing to "shill" could be argued that Luminary was made the face. And that's questionable too. He's not just the latest face, but has a lot more worldwide exposure, making it a better option than Erdrick overall in that regard. Erdrick being the most popular doesn't make him the most known worldwide either. There's multiple Heroes, and some have more worldwide appeal. In my case, I saw Luminary coming as the face(but Erdrick as a blatant costume) at some point. Though Eight was on my mind too for a possible face. The only one I didn't see coming was Solo, but I was hoping for the DQ1 Hero myself, so eh. I wasn't sure on female alts at any point.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I'm curious - who else was planned for the Base Roster and ended up as DLC/scrapped entirely?

Planned for Base Roster - I think Piranha Plant can also fit this bill if the fact it's the only DLC character with a Palutena's Guidance is an indication

Scrapped entirely - nobody as there's no leftover data like with Dixie, Mewtwo, Roy, Pra_Mai etc in Brawl. At the very least Decidueye/Lycanroc were considered but Sakurai ultimately chose Incineroar. Rex might have been considered but Sakurai didn't have time to study the character hence why he's a Mii Costume, same with Spring Man but replace Mii Costume with Assist Trophy. (in fact, I think Spring Man has left over Final Smash eyes in the data? correct me on this)

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I'm curious - who else was planned for the Base Roster and ended up as DLC/scrapped entirely?

I heardwas IIRC.

 

[Gentlepanda]

I'm curious - who else was planned for the Base Roster and ended up as DLC/scrapped entirely?

i've never heard anything about hero being planned as a base roster addition, but piranha plant was very clearly intended for the base game before being pushed to a 'early purchase bonus' - their file name isn't a codename and they have a website video

it's only a shame we were robbed of a CG piranha plant video

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Planned for Base Roster - I think Piranha Plant can also fit this bill if the fact it's the only DLC character with a Palutena's Guidance is an indication

Scrapped entirely - nobody as there's no leftover data like with Dixie, Mewtwo, Roy, Pra_Mai etc in Brawl. At the very least Decidueye/Lycanroc were considered but Sakurai ultimately chose Incineroar. Rex might have been considered but Sakurai didn't have time to study the character hence why he's a Mii Costume, same with Spring Man but replace Mii Costume with Assist Trophy. (in fact, I think Spring Man has left over Final Smash eyes in the data? correct me on this)

There was also Alucard. The Belmonts were chosen over him because Sakurai figured Castlevania fans would prefer them more.

Slime as well which eventually went to

 

[Dinoman96]

If you thought the western reaction towards Hero was bad, imagine how much more nastier it would of been if Banjo & Kazooie weren't revealed in the same direct at the end.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

If you thought the western reaction towards Hero was bad, imagine how much more nastier it would of been if Banjo & Kazooie weren't revealed in the same direct at the end.

I don't even want to imagine the possibility.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Planned for Base Roster - I think Piranha Plant can also fit this bill if the fact it's the only DLC character with a Palutena's Guidance is an indication

Scrapped entirely - nobody as there's no leftover data like with Dixie, Mewtwo, Roy, Pra_Mai etc in Brawl. At the very least Decidueye/Lycanroc were considered but Sakurai ultimately chose Incineroar. Rex might have been considered but Sakurai didn't have time to study the character hence why he's a Mii Costume, same with Spring Man but replace Mii Costume with Assist Trophy. (in fact, I think Spring Man has left over Final Smash eyes in the data? correct me on this)

Sakurai has never mentioned Lycanroc at all

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Given Rathalos' presence one wonders if Monster Hunter was at one point considered or planned to be a playable character despite not being confirmed or confessed in an interview.

A part of me feels he/she was. He/She or Palicos.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Given Rathalos' presence one wonders if Monster Hunter was at one point considered or planned to be a playable character despite not being confirmed or confessed in an interview.

A part of me feels he/she was. He/She or Palicos.

Apparantly their inclusion in MVCI wasn't well-received by the MonHun devs so likely not

 

[Arcanir]

Apparantly their inclusion in MVCI wasn't well-received by the MonHun devs so likely not

Smash Ultimate's roster was pegged in late 2015, so MvCI (which came out almost two years later) wouldn't have had any effect on the possibility of a character.

 

[Schnee117]

Slime as well which eventually went to

Sakurai felt that Hero was the best option, Slime was only on the table if he wasn't allowed to use Hero.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Smash Ultimate's roster was pegged in late 2015, so MvCI wouldn't have had any effect on the possibility of a character.

I meant that the MonHun team wasn't happy about a hunter being in a fighting game as they said no to that for MVC3. All parties need to agree for the character to be included

 

[Wunderwaft]

Apparantly their inclusion in MVCI wasn't well-received by the MonHun devs so likely not

I saw so many people claim this yet I haven't actually seen a single source that says the MonHun devs were against Hunter's inclusion in MvCI. The only time the MonHun devs were against this was in MvC3, which was in 2011. I haven't seen anything that implies that the MonHun devs still didn't like seeing a playable Hunter ever since then.

 

[lordvaati]

Also he considered Alucard as the CV rep at one point but felt the Belmonts fit a bit better, and thus put in the most popular family members from the East(Richter) and West(Simon).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Planned for Base Roster - I think Piranha Plant can also fit this bill if the fact it's the only DLC character with a Palutena's Guidance is an indication

Not really a good reason. It was just programmed in at the time they were doing Palutena's Guidances. It could still have been planned for base roster, but timing is the reason for that neat feature.

The other DLC characters were started on later, where they couldn't have the voice actors to do new Guidances(without re-hiring one person alone for more lines, and hiring more people to do other lines). Same issue with Smash 4 overall.