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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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Kokiden

Smash Ace
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They gave him 8 tracks, because there were 4 Heroes, each representing a different game.

4x2 is 8
Is it really a hard set rule that SE will only give 2 tracks per character? Was this officially said somewhere? If so, I'd have missed it.

If that's the case, then technically there should've been 4 tracks: normal Cloud, then AC Cloud.
 

EricTheGamerman

Smash Master
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Yeah, the initial rumor said they were remaking PD and Zwei, though they've only announced PD.
They actually announced the remake for Zwei when they announced the remake for the first Panzer Dragoon game, we just didn't see footage until E3 of this year: https://www.polygon.com/2018/12/10/...emake-sega-release-date-forever-entertainment.

Honestly, Halo coming to Switch before the Rare stuff DOES makes sense to me.

You have to consider that Microsoft hasn't really bothered to actually natively port Rare's old legacy games to modern hardware, like what they've been doing with Ori to Switch and Halo to PC. Rare Replay just utilizes a bunch of emulators for its games, even the Xbox 360 ones. Banjo/PD/Conker/whatever obviously just aren't a high enough priority for MS, considering that they're not active series that are getting new installments like how Halo or Ori are. I feel like if MS never bothered natively porting the XBLA Banjo games and Perfect Dark games to PC and even Xbox One, then yeah, Switch ports were always a pipe dream.

For now, I think the best opportunity of brining Rare's N64 games to Switch is for Nintendo to do an N64 equivalent to the NES and SNES online services, and work it out with Microsoft to possibly bring in the unaltered ROMs to the service, which would cost Microsoft a lot less to do.
I think people really underestimated how difficult Rare Replay actually was to pull off on Switch. A good half of the collection requires a substantial amount of work to adapt for other consoles since they just straight up used all the Backwards Compatability work done on Xbox One to make those titles happened and also used all the re-releases they had previously done on Xbox 360 for a lot of the collection. Titles like Banjo-Kazooie, Banjo-Tooie, and Perfect Dark all used their Xbox 360 versions re-releases in backwards compatibility too. Very little of Rare Replay was genuinely developed as its own product on disc actually. And you'd be sacrificing half the collection if you didn't want to put in the work for the Xbox/360/ported titles.

Marcus Fenix collection when.

It's actually funny how parallel Halo and Gears have been as series, right down to the modern 5th installment disappointing more than any other.

Halo > 2 > 3 > Reach > Wars > 4 > 1 Remake > 5 > Wars 2
Gears > 2 > 3 > Judgment > 1 Remake > 4 > 5 > Tactics

Except the non-numerical prequel on Halo's side was received much better than Gears's.
I wouldn't really say that the 5th installment of Gears was the most disappointing. I've heard a lot more praise for it than 4 before it, and certainly more than Judgment which was traditionally considered the black sheep of Gears of War. It wasn't made with the same ambition as basically the rest of the franchise (and certainly not a swan song title in the same way Reach was for Bungie and Halo). 5 seems to have garnered a lot of positive attention as a solid return to form (campaign wise at least for Gears).

I'd also say most Halo fans will say that 4 is the worse game than 5 when it comes to multiplayer especially. 5 managed to make some amends with the fan base despite changes, but 4 was the death of Halo as a multiplayer juggernaut on Xbox.

Also, you left off ODST... one of the best...
 

Dinoman96

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Sep 22, 2013
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"See, people like K. Rool, can we use him in this port?" "No, Sakurai gets to use him first"
To be fair, with all due respect to Hyle Russell, I don't see any real reason to believe his "Dave Throat" source, it always just sounded like fanfiction to me.
 

Shroob

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Is it really a hard set rule that SE will only give 2 tracks per character? Was this officially said somewhere? If so, I'd have missed it.

If that's the case, then technically there should've been 4 tracks: normal Cloud, then AC Cloud.
1576022945170.png



From the way Sakurai worded it, and the fact that each Hero got exactly 2 songs, it really feels like Square is hella stingy with the music.
 

SNEKeater

Smash Master
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Sep 4, 2019
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Yeah... I think there was a rumour? that said Retro thought about adding a K. Rool secret boss fight in the Switch version of Tropical Freeze but it didn't happened because Sakurai wanted to bring back K. Rool first.
I don't remember where I read that, maybe it's bull****. But honestly it wouldn't surprise me because for some reason some people at Nintendo, like Miyamoto, seems to "despise" characters they didn't created.

They better bring back K. Rool for the next DK Country game... if there's another one soon...
 
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D

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View attachment 252012


From the way Sakurai worded it, and the fact that each Hero got exactly 2 songs, it really feels like Square is hella stingy with the music.
tbf, the Dragon Quest music is all Sugiyama's fault, sense he has complete control over the Dragon Quest music. I'm still wondering how much money went into getting the rights to the symphonic arrangements of Overture and Adventure used in the trailer.
 

Smashoperatingbuddy123

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Jul 16, 2013
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Funny question came to my head now

If we do infact get master chief as a character down the line

Do you guys think cuphead is still possible for a spot?
 

Shroob

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tbf, the Dragon Quest music is all Sugiyama's fault, sense he has complete control over the Dragon Quest music. I'm still wondering how much money went into getting the rights to the symphonic arrangements of Overture and Adventure used in the trailer.
I'd argue that Hero probably was the most expensive character licensing-wise depending on who character 5 is.
 

CapitaineCrash

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King zell just hinted once again that halo (master chief collection in particular) is coming to Nintendo (switch)

And now because of this people are speculating he could be FP5 reveal with it (if it happens)

And reminder to everyone who keeps saying not gonna happen because we got banjo (2 Microsoft reps) there’s only 2 rules of smash

“No 4th parties like goku/shrek/iron man for example” and “the character has to Ben on a Nintendo game and that roadblock might finally be removed from master Chief chances for smash)
Actually, the second rule isn't even true. According to Source gaming "Besides that, it might be something like a courtesy to include a character who has the experience of being on a Nintendo platform". It seems more to me that being on a Nintendo console would help, but it's not a requirement.

Source: https://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/10/05/sakuraithirdparty/
 

Iko MattOrr

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The thing about the Koopalings is, usually, if you get one, you get all seven, which is a big chunk of whatever roster that could be dedicated to branching out in other ways. Smash did it right, by making them all alts of the same character. Their appearance on the MK roster, for example, comes off a little like filler, especially when they consistently choose to omit unique characters like E. Gadd, Kamek, almost anyone from DKC, or even past ones like Petey Piranha and Birdo.

Well, they're part of why it feels like filler, the other is the increasing amount of derivative characters like Mario and Peach covered in various alloys or a completely unnecessary amount of baby characters (that don't even use existing ones like Baby Wario or Baby DK).

I really don't get it. The Mario series has such better options to work with. I don't even bother entertaining the possibility of RPG characters getting acknowledged, because that seems like a total lost cause (outside of Smash, at least). But it does make me happy that EPD doesn't create, or really seem to influence the Smash roster at all. Three Links would actually look tame in comparison to their version.

But **** would Geno and Mallow have fit right in to Double Dash perfectly.
I think they do it on purpose, because Mario has to be casual, and fanservice has to stay at a minimum.
Think of a kid who has never played a Mario game: that kid must be able to understand all the content of any Mario game even with 0 experience with the series.

This is why when an old character is reintroduced, it's treated as if it was a new character, with little focus on their past roles (think of Pauline, or even Daisy at the time when she came back from Marioland), and when there's an actual reference to an older more obscure game element, it's extremely minor or left ambiguous (Sherbet Land in Mario Kart is probably a reference to the same location from Warioland, but it's still not clear if it's intentional or just a coincidence, because there is no Warioland element in the tracks with that name).

Baby characters are cute, who cares if they aren't canon? Baby DK is canon? That character from Yoshi's Island DS? You have to ask many questions and do research in order to fully understand it, so it's not worth, because you know, Baby Rosalina is cuter than Baby DK, so why spend effort in making a baby monkey? Not to mention Baby Wario. (I'm sarcastic obviously).

Mario must not have a real continuity, it must not have an hardcore community that can potentially create discrimination among fans; new game, new world... everything back from start, every player comes back to being a casual because their prior knownledge becomes useless, events from previous games won't be referenced aside of some very minor easter eggs.

When a character is excluded (such as Waluigi in MK7) it's probably because it doesn't fit the specific mood of that particular version of the game, or because they already have another character who appeals to the same type of players the removed character was appealing to, and its presence would be unnecessary; or even worse, maybe so in the future they can release another similar game with the missing character included, so that the new game feels different. they do this type of character rotation in some games, especially in Mario Party.

I literally stopped being a Mario fanboy when I realized they were treating the franchise this way, and it happend around Mario Galaxy/Mario Kart Wii.
I'm honestly surprised that Funky Kong in MKWii was a thing actually, because it's the only character who don't fit the logic; it must have been a favorite of the developers or something. Oh, and ROB... WTF they were thinking/planning when they put ROB in MKDS?
 
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I'd argue that Hero probably was the most expensive character licensing-wise depending on who character 5 is.
Unless I'm forgetting something, Hero's trailer marks the only instance where the music in the trailer has required its own copyright disclaimer.



But yeah, I'd wager the two most expensive characters were JRPG swordsman :ultcloud::ulthero:
 

EricTheGamerman

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
3,197
They gave him 8 tracks, because there were 4 Heroes, each representing a different game.

4x2 is 8
Not this **** again. Outside of the crazy ass SNK music selection which is clearly an outlier given Sakurai's reaction, 10 tracks is about the average we're looking at for music in the DLC so far. Sugiyama is famously an asshole about his music and in life, so he's the most expensive to work with too given his ego. They were very clear in wanting to represent the Heroes equally, so they got an equal spread as to emphasize the different games between each of them: an overworld theme and a battle theme. To add even one more song to the group, you would have to actually add 4 more to keep that balance equal across the 4 alts, and suddenly you'd be left with the second highest song total of DLC in 12 from the most expensive music composer in gaming.

There's a pretty damn obvious explanation to this, and it isn't that Square Enix is some stingy asshole that gives only two tracks "per game" and that Sakurai circumvented that by including 4 alts (he had two in mind, and Square Enix came to him with more, so again, this isn't the same situation).

I'm so sick of the Smash community trying to force a narrative on Square Enix. Hero should have put a stop to all this bull****, but all anybody looks at are the songs and not the obviously more complicated circumstances of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest music.

Never mind that Dragon Quest has the most Spirits in DLC.
Never mind the highest number of Mii Costumes from a single series in DLC is Dragon Quest.
Never mind that Hero has the most unique alts for a DLC character ever.
Never mind that these characters have never been allowed to cross over before and Square Enix encouraged that to happen.
Never mind these characters have never been voiced before and Square Enix let Smash do the honors.
Never mind the fact that Cloud wasn't nearly as barren as people want him to be in retrospect (Ryu came with 6 songs y'all, he was barely better and Midgar always had a **** ton of the summons from the Final Fantasy games too, which counts for something).

I just want people to stop pretending like Square Enix is so hard to work with or that 2 songs is somehow some hard rule and not just completely circumstantial evidence that actually points towards Square Enix working with more protective and expensive composers that also have significantly more control over the rights to their music than basically any other composer anywhere near Smash. Yes, they didn't just offer their treasure trove like SNK did, but Ultimate shows them as considerably more willing to work with Nintendo on Smash content.
 
D

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I don't know why am I trying to look at leaks. It's only two more days.
Wait...did they say 5th...oh wait, they didn't give out the name.

But good for the BK fam who have been waiting for so long. BK's Smash appearance did see a HUGE resurgence in popularity.
 

Animegamingnerd

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I don't know why am I trying to look at leaks. It's only two more days.
It was obvious that RE3 was gonna be at SoP, especially after Geoff it wasn't gonna be at the TGA.
 

Dinoman96

Smash Master
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Messages
3,350
Yeah, music was pretty much the only thing that DQ got gimped on in Smash, with only awful sounding MIDI tracks with no remixes. And that can be simply blamed on not so much Square-Enix, but this trash bag right here:

 
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Shroob

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Not this **** again. Outside of the crazy ass SNK music selection which is clearly an outlier given Sakurai's reaction, 10 tracks is about the average we're looking at for music in the DLC so far. Sugiyama is famously an asshole about his music and in life, so he's the most expensive to work with too given his ego. They were very clear in wanting to represent the Heroes equally, so they got an equal spread as to emphasize the different games between each of them: an overworld theme and a battle theme. To add even one more song to the group, you would have to actually add 4 more to keep that balance equal across the 4 alts, and suddenly you'd be left with the second highest song total of DLC in 12 from the most expensive music composer in gaming.

There's a pretty damn obvious explanation to this, and it isn't that Square Enix is some stingy asshole that gives only two tracks "per game" and that Sakurai circumvented that by including 4 alts (he had two in mind, and Square Enix came to him with more, so again, this isn't the same situation).

I'm so sick of the Smash community trying to force a narrative on Square Enix. Hero should have put a stop to all this bull****, but all anybody looks at are the songs and not the obviously more complicated circumstances of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest music.

Never mind that Dragon Quest has the most Spirits in DLC.
Never mind the highest number of Mii Costumes from a single series in DLC is Dragon Quest.
Never mind that Hero has the most unique alts for a DLC character ever.
Never mind that these characters have never been allowed to cross over before and Square Enix encouraged that to happen.
Never mind these characters have never been voiced before and Square Enix let Smash do the honors.
Never mind the fact that Cloud wasn't nearly as barren as people want him to be in retrospect (Ryu came with 6 songs y'all, he was barely better and Midgar always had a **** ton of the summons from the Final Fantasy games too, which counts for something).

I just want people to stop pretending like Square Enix is so hard to work with or that 2 songs is somehow some hard rule and not just completely circumstantial evidence that actually points towards Square Enix working with more protective and expensive composers that also have significantly more control over the rights to their music than basically any other composer anywhere near Smash. Yes, they didn't just offer their treasure trove like SNK did, but Ultimate shows them as considerably more willing to work with Nintendo on Smash content.
When Sakurai himself says "It'd be a shame to only include 1-2 songs from 11"

Yeah, Imma hard doubt this ****.
 
D

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Not this **** again. Outside of the crazy ass SNK music selection which is clearly an outlier given Sakurai's reaction, 10 tracks is about the average we're looking at for music in the DLC so far. Sugiyama is famously an asshole about his music and in life, so he's the most expensive to work with too given his ego. They were very clear in wanting to represent the Heroes equally, so they got an equal spread as to emphasize the different games between each of them: an overworld theme and a battle theme. To add even one more song to the group, you would have to actually add 4 more to keep that balance equal across the 4 alts, and suddenly you'd be left with the second highest song total of DLC in 12 from the most expensive music composer in gaming.

There's a pretty damn obvious explanation to this, and it isn't that Square Enix is some stingy asshole that gives only two tracks "per game" and that Sakurai circumvented that by including 4 alts (he had two in mind, and Square Enix came to him with more, so again, this isn't the same situation).

I'm so sick of the Smash community trying to force a narrative on Square Enix. Hero should have put a stop to all this bull****, but all anybody looks at are the songs and not the obviously more complicated circumstances of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest music.

Never mind that Dragon Quest has the most Spirits in DLC.
Never mind the highest number of Mii Costumes from a single series in DLC is Dragon Quest.
Never mind that Hero has the most unique alts for a DLC character ever.
Never mind that these characters have never been allowed to cross over before and Square Enix encouraged that to happen.
Never mind these characters have never been voiced before and Square Enix let Smash do the honors.
Never mind the fact that Cloud wasn't nearly as barren as people want him to be in retrospect (Ryu came with 6 songs y'all, he was barely better and Midgar always had a **** ton of the summons from the Final Fantasy games too, which counts for something).

I just want people to stop pretending like Square Enix is so hard to work with or that 2 songs is somehow some hard rule and not just completely circumstantial evidence that actually points towards Square Enix working with more protective and expensive composers that also have significantly more control over the rights to their music than basically any other composer anywhere near Smash. Yes, they didn't just offer their treasure trove like SNK did, but Ultimate shows them as considerably more willing to work with Nintendo on Smash content.
Woah, sorry. I just like making 2 songs jokes.
 

CapitaineCrash

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I don't know why am I trying to look at leaks. It's only two more days.
But Geoff literally disconfirmed Banjo redooie, he said something like "that would be a funny name, but it's not hapening". Also RE3 leaked on the PSN store way before, so op could have guessed that it would be announced at State of play.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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You're wrong and right, because even if an old Pokemon gets an evolution doesn't mean it'll be good, a lot of the new Galar evolutions just suck.


Mega Evolutions at the very least made a lot of fan favorites like Pinsir, Heracross, etc viable to actually use in battles, and while a LOT of Pokemon got them that didn't need them, like Salamence or Metagross, I'd take making old Pokemon actually useful than giving an old Pokemon an evolution that's still useless any day.
Mega Evolutions don't guarantee viability either. See: Mega Glalie.

From the way Sakurai worded it, and the fact that each Hero got exactly 2 songs, it really feels like Square is hella stingy with the music.
From what I hear it's just that Final Fantasy music is a licensing nightmare and getting Dragon Quest music is like pulling teeth (even for SquareEnix).
 

pinshadow

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Smashoperatingbuddy123

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I don't know why am I trying to look at leaks. It's only two more days.
Rats doesn’t end the war all those seems believable though

Too bad Geoff May have proven it fake
 
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Shroob

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Mega Evolutions don't guarantee viability either. See: Mega Glalie.


From what I hear it's just that Final Fantasy music is a licensing nightmare and getting Dragon Quest music is like pulling teeth (even for SquareEnix).
It doesn't mean viability but they at least make some Pokemon better and useable. Pinsir, Heracross, Mawile, Sableye, to name a few.


Legions better than the mess that's Dyna/Gigamax anyway.
 

DarthEnderX

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You're wrong and right, because even if an old Pokemon gets an evolution doesn't mean it'll be good, a lot of the new Galar evolutions just suck.

Mega Evolutions at the very least made a lot of fan favorites like Pinsir, Heracross, etc viable to actually use in battles, and while a LOT of Pokemon got them that didn't need them, like Salamence or Metagross, I'd take making old Pokemon actually useful than giving an old Pokemon an evolution that's still useless any day.
I give very few ****s about competitive Pokemon play. I care about the collecting. And Mega evolutions can't be collected.
 
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It's a shame it's fake because Banjo-Redooie is an amazing name
 
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zeldasmash

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I wouldn't really say that the 5th installment of Gears was the most disappointing. I've heard a lot more praise for it than 4 before it, and certainly more than Judgment which was traditionally considered the black sheep of Gears of War. It wasn't made with the same ambition as basically the rest of the franchise (and certainly not a swan song title in the same way Reach was for Bungie and Halo). 5 seems to have garnered a lot of positive attention as a solid return to form (campaign wise at least for Gears).

I'd also say most Halo fans will say that 4 is the worse game than 5 when it comes to multiplayer especially. 5 managed to make some amends with the fan base despite changes, but 4 was the death of Halo as a multiplayer juggernaut on Xbox.

Also, you left off ODST... one of the best...
Halo 4 is considered among the worst in terms of multiplayer, but people like it as an overall package a lot more then Halo 5. 5 may have fixed some of the multiplayer, but it still isn't as good as say 2, 3 or Reach. And as an overall package? It is the worst Halo to date with the worst single player campaign with plot points going nowhere, retconning quite a bit of stuff from the previous games (it pretends like 4 never existed) and the shortest campaign of the numbered entries. It also introduced the Req system which we know how that went.
 

DarthEnderX

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You can collect the stones I guess...
Which, sadly, don't go with the Pokemon into the Bank.

I mean, they have Dex Entries, so you're technically incorrect in that they 'can' be collected.
Which don't transfer to future games.

If the collection is limited to one game, it's not really a collection.

I doubt I'll be giving a **** about my Currydex come Gen 9.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Which don't transfer to future games.

If the collection is limited to one game, it's not really a collection.

I doubt I'll be giving a **** about my Currydex come Gen 9.
Well I guess you won't be collecting anything that isn't Pikachu, Lucario, or Charizard then. lol

EDIT: *The Sound of Silence plays in the background*
 
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Tako Tuesday

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When a character is excluded (such as Waluigi in MK7) it's probably because it doesn't fit the specific mood of that particular version of the game, or because they already have another character who appeals to the same type of players the removed character was appealing to, and its presence would be unnecessary; or even worse, maybe so in the future they can release another similar game with the missing character included, so that the new game feels different. they do this type of character rotation in some games, especially in Mario Party.
Although I can't find an official source for this, I heard that Waluigi was cut from Mario Kart 7 due to time constraints. However, I disagree. The real reason he was cut is because he was too dang sexy.

Mario Kart 7 was for good boys and girls.
 
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