Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Curious Villager]

Using a bow for one attack ≠ being a full archer.

There's a major difference between characters like Link and Pit, and characters like Decidueye and Claude.

Yeah calling the Link's and Pit's archers because of one move is like calling Mario a water based fighter...

It doesn't hold up.

 

[Deleted member]

The looks I get when I say Yuri has as good a shot at getting in as Lloyd.

HOW IS THAT A CONTROVERSIAL OPINION?! Yuri is WAY more popular within the Tales community, and he is the most relevant Tales protagonist currently due to ToV:DE coming out on modern consoles this year (unless you count Tales of Arise). Most of the "evidence" that backs Lloyd up also backs up Yuri. In fact, if we assume that the trademarked icons are for Smash; They fit Yuri WAY better as the book didn't get used as a save icon until Vesperia. Yet most people say that Lloyd is much more likely to get in due him getting a Mii Costume in Smash 4; even though that was BEFORE Yuri was even on a Nintendo console (barring Project X Zone).

And if a Project X Zone appearance wasn't good enough to get Dante any representation currently, I don't see how it was good enough to get Yuri representation back in Smash 4 over Lloyd.

SO AGAIN HOW IS IT A CONTROVERSIAL OPINION TO SAY THAT THERE IS 50/50 CHANCE OF A TALES REP BEING YURI OR LLOYD?! I swear some people in the Smash speculation scene need to actually do their research.

Our only historical basis for Tales Of representation was with Lloyd back in Smash 4 when he got a costume. The only time I saw Yuri being brought up was after "Brave" started making headlines. Maybe Yuri had support before the Erdrick drama, but I sure know for certain Lloyd had the backing--enough to get a mii costume. I'm pessimistic of Yuri's chances as a result.

 

[perfectchaos83]

Again, that was before Yuri had his games on a Nintendo console. I'VE STATED THAT SO MANY TIMES.

Another thing is that Sakurai didn't pick the characters. The question should be "Who would Nintendo pick?" The most popular character in the series? Or the character that a lot of Nintendo fans like?

 

[Ben Holt]

The issue with Contra is that past Hard Corps, only Contra 4 has been decent, and every other title released since 1994 (post Hard Corps) has been pretty much terrible and drug Contra's name further and further through the mud, especially with Rogue Corps this year showing just how maligned the series has become (and make no mistake Rogue Corps is legitimately one of the worst games of the year). Of the NES games to a survive a transition beyond the 2D era, Ninja Gaiden is the only one that managed to actually pull it off with any semblance of grace and success. It's the only missing NES series that managed to evolve successfully, and I think that's why it gets labeled as the "last NES franchise" to a lot of people. Bill Rizer is also just not that interesting of a character to make move sets out of given that Contra was straight up a game at its best when the gameplay was simple and you fired one gun in a few different directions. A Contra protagonist just doesn't really seem like the sort of character Sakurai is looking for, especially in light of yesterday's Resident Evil Spirits.

I just think there's a lot running against Contra in Smash.

I wish these old IPs would return. And I don't mean budget games. I mean triple-****in'-A. I imagine God of War as the "modern" evolution of Castlevania.

 

[Ben Holt]

Again, that was before Yuri had his games on a Nintendo console. I'VE STATED THAT SO MANY TIMES.

Cloud over Black Mage.
Hell, even I thought that was impossible.
EDIT: Oops. Accidentally double posted.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

The looks I get when I say Yuri has as good a shot at getting in as Lloyd.

HOW IS THAT A CONTROVERSIAL OPINION?! Yuri is WAY more popular within the Tales community, and he is the most relevant Tales protagonist currently due to ToV:DE coming out on modern consoles this year (unless you count Tales of Arise). Most of the "evidence" that backs Lloyd up also backs up Yuri. In fact, if we assume that the trademarked icons are for Smash; They fit Yuri WAY better as the book didn't get used as a save icon until Vesperia. Yet most people say that Lloyd is much more likely to get in due him getting a Mii Costume in Smash 4; even though that was BEFORE Yuri was even on a Nintendo console (barring Project X Zone).

And if a Project X Zone appearance wasn't good enough to get Dante any representation currently, I don't see how it was good enough to get Yuri representation back in Smash 4 over Lloyd.

SO AGAIN HOW IS IT A CONTROVERSIAL OPINION TO SAY THAT THERE IS 50/50 CHANCE OF A TALES REP BEING YURI OR LLOYD?! I swear some people in the Smash speculation scene need to actually do their research.

As I said over in the Geno thread, it was a Mii costume. Sakurai would have picked Yuri if he had any reason to want to. Trying to compare apprehensions about a Mii costume to a full blown playable character just doesn't make sense to me. And you're also basing far too much of your analysis that a book from a trademark is specifically related to Smash (and that they can't just use that casually to represent Tales, which works perfectly fine too as a somewhat literal interpretation of the series name).

 

[Ivander]

Yuri has one sword and Lloyd has two which makes him approximately 200% cooler

Yeah, Kirito is 200% cooler than Yuri.

I just came back from the Fire Emblem Heroes Reddit where the latest Mythic Hero, Altina, apparently had people comparing her to Kirito because she had 2 swords and calling her "Female Kirito". Now imagine rather than people going "Literally Who" when Lloyd gets revealed, they instead go "Can't believe Kirito made it into Smash."

 

[perfectchaos83]

As I said over in the Geno thread, it was a Mii costume. Sakurai would have picked Yuri if he had any reason to want to. Trying to compare apprehensions about a Mii costume to a full blown playable character just doesn't make sense to me. And you're also basing far too much of your analysis that a book from a trademark is specifically related to Smash (and that they can't just use that casually to represent Tales, which works perfectly fine too as a somewhat literal interpretation of the series name).

Sakurai's not the only variable here. Nintendo is the major factor here, not Sakurai.

 

[Deleted member]

Still no word from Sabi or the higher-ups. The suspense is killing me goddammit.

 

[Seanapotamus]

Regarding "obvious picks" throughout the game's life cycle:

• Inklings were a lock even before the game was even announced.
• Isabelle had already grown to be a very popular character, though many thought she would be an echo of Villager instead of being a standalone fighter.
• A Pokemon rep was also a given. Incineroar wasn't the frontrunner for the Pokemon newcomer spot until like a couple months before its reveal. Before insiders talked about Incineroar, Decidueye was the rumored Pokemon newcomer due to Grass being the only type to not have a fully evolved rep and its appearance in Pokken Tournament.
• Ever since echos were announced at last year's E3, Ken was a shoe-in. Even became more obvious after Richter's reveal.
• Hero actually had requests for a while, but he wasn't really talked about until leaks of him (particularly his Erdrick alt) circulated months before his proper reveal. Prior to that, all we heard was that a Square Enix character was coming according to Vergeben.
• Banjo was an interesting situation. Most thought Steve was the Microsoft frontrunner due to Minecraft being the best selling game of all times and is more recognizable to the younger audience members, and rumors of him picked up after Vergeben mentioned "Minecraft content", to the point where quite a bit of people thought it was a confirmation for Steve and began running with it on 4chan. Banjo didn't pick up a lot of traction until Shinobi teased him in a Resetera thread at least a week before E3. Banjo wasn't too surprising for the hardcore fans, but he's rather unkown to the younger fans, since he hadn't been relevant for a while and a lot of the younger fans haven't played on a Nintendo 64, so they don't have as much of a connection to Banjo as the older members of the audience do.
• Also keep in mind, just because a pick is obvious doesn't mean they are in. A lot of us thought Shadow was in as Sonic's echo, but we learned that's not the case in the last year's November 1st Direct.
• Now as for Lloyd being considered an obvious pick, I don't think this is the case when you consider the general audience, especially younger fans. Most of the younger audience don't own a Gamecube, so they don't really have a connection to Lloyd and Tales of Symphonia like some of the older members of the audience do. Also, Lloyd isn't the most popular and relevant protagonist in the Tales series, that honor belongs to Yuri from Vesperia, and it helps that the remaster came out this year. I mean, if anything, the Tales rep could either be Lloyd or Yuri. They have as good of a chance as each other.

We may expect the obvious picks, but in the end, while we do get these obvious picks, we're going to get curve balls thrown at us on occasion.

 

[SKX31]

Hey y'all, if you hate leaks with a passion there's currently a job opening to become an official Nintendo Ninja

Hmm, what's that in Requirements? "Ability to read Chinese characters"? Hm. SKX31 , know anything about this? Just curious.

Couple reasons I'd imagine (I was asleep when you guys posted):

First, there's been a lot of leaks coming from Tencent / the Chinese project, and if Vergeben, Sabi etc. knew even a bit of Chinese they'd be feasting on the info like Wario feasts on (edit) garlic. Thing is, a lot of it has turned out true: From one Chinese leaker (who claims to work for Tencent) saying that the Chinese Switch would have WeChat Pay (Chinese PayPal) integrated into it, to the one year warranty featured in another rumor being confirmed by an image leak of the boxes (including the AC adapter). I'm saying the leakers here would be feasting over the info because if things are leaking now, Tencent might wind up leaking just as readily as Nintendo did with the SNK copyright. Kinda find it likely that the job's at least partly aimed at that.

Second, there's been a major storm surrounding the Shanghai-based company miHoYo. They're behind:

* Genshin Impact, which was accused as being a BOTW knock off and whose hashtag highlighting that status went viral on Weibo (Chinese Twitter).

* The Unknown Case File, which got accused of being an Ace Attorney ripoff.

Loads of Chinese fans have raged over this company since they've grown justifiably tired of knock offs everywhere:

So when miHoYo announced a new legal drama game with a protagonist that shouts “objection” with a determined stare, it was hard for Ace Attorney fans to miss. The fact that the Breath of the Wild knockoff is still fresh in people’s minds didn’t help silence critics, either.


“miHoYo is getting increasingly nastier,” one Weibo user wrote. “Not only did it move on Zelda, it’s now preparing to go after Ace Attorney. Does it want clone all the games in the world?”


“miHoYo doesn’t care about its image anymore,” another wrote. “Is it trying to beat Ace Attorney to the punch before it starts supporting the Chinese language?”

When I say justified, I mean it. Look at this:

But the company doesn't give a hoot:

Targeting women gamers is getting increasingly common in China’s gaming market. The massive success of a Chinese dating sim called Love and Producer made it clear how much untapped potential there was in this type of targeted gaming content. According to a recent report from Oppo, 46 percent of mobile gamers in China are female.


Maybe that’s why miHoYo doesn’t seem bothered by all the negative attention. It sees a new market opportunity where others see only another knockoff. The company said on Weibo that it “welcomes scrutiny” and “welcomes fans to fire shots” at the game once it’s released.

So yeah, I find it kinda likely that the Nintendo Ninja's partly going to spend time targetting companies like miHoYo with lawsuits. The Chinese government has made an 180 over cloning games recently, so that should help Nintendo's case.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

And it's a dang shame. Game Cube was peckin' great, and had some of the best hidden gem 3rd parties a Nintendo console could ask for.

So I've been told. Though to be honest I don't actually remember what was on the gamecube other than Super Smash Bros. Melee, Super Mario Sunshine, and Chibi Robo. And I think Custom Robo as well.

Wasn't it more because Decidueye fulfilled the non-existent "starter trio" quota? People definitely ignored Incineroar and Primarina at first because "we already have Charizard and Greninja."

This too. Though I'd say the difference in their base popularity as characters and the seeming inevitability of the Kencineroar leak had a role to play in that as well.

Also, as far as the whole Yuri/Lloyd debate goes, if one of them gets in, the other will definitely appear as a spirit, costume, and/or a stage cameo. Also I hope it's Lloyd because he's the one I'm actually familiar with.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Sakurai's not the only variable here. Nintendo is the major factor here, not Sakurai.

I have my doubts that Nintendo cares about who the Tales rep is so much. Lloyd's just as marketable as Yuri is, and specifically satisfies their own fans. If Sakurai wanted Lloyd over Yuri, I'm pretty sure Nintendo would relent super quickly. Not to mention, we saw that Dragon Quest was specifically brought to the table as the "idea of Dragon Quest in Smash" and that Sakurai was the figurehead behind Hero specifically, so I think Sakurai still has a much larger role here than you're giving him credit for.

 

[Deleted member]

Yep, that's true; but the thing to note is that it hasn't been deconfirmed since September, and no insiders have come out to deconfirm KOS-MOS either.

Also you're right that most 4chan leaks aren't true, but the original cat leak was definitely true. While it is possible that this guy is just a ripoff of the original cat leaker, it hasn't been proven. Also the last time that cat image was used before the KOS-MOS leak was on June 30th (unrelated to Smash). So it's not a very well known image either.

Is the leak PROBABLY false? YES!

Is the leak DEFINITELY false? NO!

Personally, I think KOS-MOS has a worse shot then Lloyd/Yuri and Heihachi/Kazuya; but I think that she has a better shot then Nightmare, Agumon, and Chosen Undead.

Well yeah but still keep in mind sabi said that only a select handful of insiders know who 5 is and they aren’t sharing who it is right now.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Based on what Sakurai said last year, I'm sure he still has some power in which characters get in.

 

[perfectchaos83]

Inklings were a lock even before the game was even announced.

I'd argue that's why they were revealed first.

 

[Sysreq]

Using a bow for one attack ≠ being a full archer.

There's a major difference between characters like Link and Pit, and characters like Decidueye and Claude.

Well, I think there's a reason Sakurai decided to make Pit's bow turn into swords back in Brawl--because being a "full archer" isn't fun.

 

[GKMLTTSB]

Wasn't it more because Decidueye fulfilled the non-existent "starter trio" quota? People definitely ignored Incineroar and Primarina at first because "we already have Charizard and Greninja."

That was why people were arguing that it should be Decidueye (in addition to general... "disdain" for another bipedal Fire-type starter), but it always seemed more like trying to rationalize the result out of being Incineroar rather than wholeheartedly believing it wouldn't be.

Less like, "I'm confident it is Decidueye," and more like "We can't be hasty! There is a case to be made that it could be Decidueye, you know!? They wouldn't be crazy enough to not give us the grass type, right!?"

Edit: As for me, I expected Incineroar followed by Decidueye, but was on Team "Primarina if we're stuck getting a new (starter) Pokemon". We weren't a very large team. :-(

 

[Deleted member]

I imagine Verge would have outright disconfirmed her since she’s been in the huge cat leak. But since he hasn’t it is looking like there’s really hope.

Or maybe he dosent care about it right now Or it wasent huge enough to get his attention. He didn’t cared Talking about the female leak until people talked about it more

 

[perfectchaos83]

Or maybe he dosent care about it right now Or it wasent huge enough to get his attention. He didn’t cared Talking about the female leak until people talked about it more

He deconfirmed an NIS rep and Falcom rep out of nowhere. So he will speak up when there's no reason to.

 

[Deleted member]

I imagine Verge would have outright disconfirmed her since she’s been in the huge cat leak. But since he hasn’t it is looking like there’s really hope.

It's kinda strange that this seemingly major leak hasn't been brought up to Verge yet.

 

[Deleted member]

It's kinda strange that this seemingly major leak hasn't been brought up to Verge yet.

It wasn't really that huge

 

[Deleted member]

It wasn't really that huge

Unless...

 

[N3ON]

Still no word from Sabi or the higher-ups. The suspense is killing me goddammit.

Dante, Gordon Freeman, Ubisoft, and two other companies that really didn't have a chance anyway have been "deconfirmed" for F5 and RE has been actually (all-but) deconfirmed this past week. That's more that happens in any week not filled with a reveal.

Just take it easy.

 

[TheTuninator]

It's kinda strange that this seemingly major leak hasn't been brought up to Verge yet.

The cat leak isn't actually major because there's absolutely no way of verifying whether Post #1 and Post #2 were made by the same person. It's not only possible, but plausible that Post #2 was simply an attentive poster who happened to screencap the first leak, saw that it turned out to be accurate, and made their own post to piggyback off its credibility.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Another thing is that Sakurai didn't pick the characters. The question should be "Who would Nintendo pick?" The most popular character in the series? Or the character that a lot of Nintendo fans like?

Considering ToS is the most known game outside of the series' core fandom, and the best selling, and pretty much the only one that broke into the mainstream worldwide, Lloyd is the most popular.

Like, if you made a poll amongst only Persona fans about who the most popular protag is, I'm not sure you would get Joker. But when you expand that reach to the massive audience that plays Smash and the gaming internet at large, that's who you land on.

 

[Deleted member]

Dante, Gordon Freeman, Ubisoft, and two other companies that really didn't have a chance anyway have been "deconfirmed" for F5 and RE has been actually (all-but) deconfirmed this past week. That's more that happens in any week not filled with a reveal.

Just take it easy.

*puts on headphones and listens to some EXO*

Thanks for the advice. If there's something I'd be delighted to hear about, ping me.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Guys, bad news. Vergeben's disconfirmed another character.

Spoiler

NicoOlvia003 isn't Fighter #5

 

[Deleted member]

Unless...

Listen please
i know you want a female character in But you need to know theres no guerentee that a female will end the pass And there’s really no reason to give this cat leak attention Also that evidence you gave to that leak those are likely coincidences shiftys Ryu claim was likley for that other game he was coming to

 

[PSIGuy]

Wario feasts on onions

Garlic, actually.

I have nothing else to add.

 

[cothero]

Being completely honest here, i don't think this whole "Nintendo choses the characters" chip chat is true, or at least not entirely true. It's a very good excuse for Sakurai not being hated for choosing whoever he wants to put in the game. Hell, Terry's inclusion screams Sakurai's fanboyism.

 

[N3ON]

I think calling the cat leak "major" is conflating it with the word "active". It's still alive, but calling it a big leak, as of right now, is a stretch.

Plus the leakers don't know that much anyway. Look how much they were scrambling over themselves when the last actually "major" leak (the Hat Ken leak) broke - it took a while before their sources plied them with info. And it wasn't much info at that.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Guys, bad news. Vergeben's disconfirmed another character.

Spoiler

NicoOlvia003 isn't Fighter #5

Spoiler

I can’t believe Vergeben is disconfirming our moms now, that’s just cruel.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

At this point, I wonder how many people are just asking Vergeben a bunch of "is this character the fifth fighter" just to see if he'll deconfirm them...

• Is Lloyd the fifth fighter?
  • No, Lloyd is not the fifth fighter.
• Is Heihachi the fifth fighter?
  • No, Heihachi is not the fifth fighter.
• Is Phoenix Wright the fifth fighter?
  • No, Phoenix Wright is not the fifth fighter.
• Is mayonnaise the fifth fighter?
  • No, mayonnaise is not the fifth fighter.
• ... *raises hand*
  • Horseradish is not the fifth fighter either.

 

[Deleted member]

Listen please
i know you want a female character in But you need to know theres no guerentee that a female will end the pass

*shrugs*

Is there anything else I can do other than expect the worst? Heh, I'm prepared to face reality. Now let's stop right now and focus on your talking, shall you?

Spoiler

I can’t believe Vergeben is disconfirming our moms now, that’s just cruel.

Hahahahahahaha!

It's obvious it's a ****ing joke but I'll take it any day XD

 

[ES. Dinah]

Or maybe he dosent care about it right now Or it wasent huge enough to get his attention. He didn’t cared Talking about the female leak until people talked about it more

We get it. You don’t want the cat leak to happen. Thanks

 

[SKX31]

Garlic, actually.

I have nothing else to add.

Thanks I honestly missed that. Fixed.

Also, gotta remember that Nintendo's trying to catch its most infamous criminal:

Yoshi committed age rating evasion https://t.co/CVzhqh4RnI

— LuigiUltra64 (@LuigiUltra64) November 28, 2019

 

[yeet123]

Reeeeeaaaaaaaaaally hoping we dont end the pass with Lloyd the generic JRPG man.

Give us Sora, the cool JRPG man

 

[Deleted member]

Reeeeeaaaaaaaaaally hoping we dont end the pass with Lloyd the generic JRPG man.

Give us Sora, the cool JRPG man

How about another fighting game character? Why? The pass would be balanced.

• We have two JRPG reps (Joker, Hero)
• One platforming rep (BK)
• Two Fighters.

I know it's improbable but that's the best theory I could come up with.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Reeeeeaaaaaaaaaally hoping we dont end the pass with Lloyd the generic JRPG man.

Give us Sora, the cool JRPG man

Pffft. If you consider Lloyd to be generic then Sora's going to be just as generic. They're both naive, high energy, sword wielding anime characters. No. What you really need is Crono, the blank slate, doesn't talk at all (except that one time), sword wielding anime character.