Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Ben Holt]

I really don't care about this argument but Shin Megami Tensei'd source material is called Megami Tensei which is more than "based on"

Kid Icarus is based on Greek Mythology.
Sora isn't "based" on the Disney universe; he IS in the Disney universe.

 

[Deleted member]

He can't. But you can't back up that's it's not the case either.

Whether KH is considered a part or the larger Disney cartoon franchise or not is really up to Nintendo and Disney's interpretation. And neither have made an official statement on the subject.

It's more like calling Galena a Shounen Jump character.

He is making the case so proving Sora is not a videogame character falls on him. People already gave reasons as to why Sora is considered a videogame character including Sakurai congratulating Nomura, if the other side cant present anything its safe to assume Sora is a videogame character.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I'm glad it's probably not a Resident Evil character.

 

[Idon]

Yall mother****ers better not be using SMT and MT in your arguments.

Tired of people giving a **** about the MT books when neither Atlus nor Nintendo do, lmao.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yall mother****ers better not be using SMT and MT in your arguments.
View attachment 248324
Tired of people giving a **** about the MT books when neither Atlus nor Nintendo do.

Atlus doesn't care about SMT or Persona 1 and 2 so you cannot stop me

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I really don't get your logic here. It feels as if you have no grounds for your argument, and, when presented with evidence on the contrary, have to resort to calling myself and Sora's fans biased rather than presenting any evidence of your own. If true, I find that rather offensive.

I think you're conflating Kingdom Hearts and Disney. The whole purpose of Kingdom Hearts has never been to "be a Disney spinoff" (there is no such thing as a Mickey Mouse spinoff since Mickey Mouse isn't a franchise; he and his friends fall under Classic Disney, or just Disney itself). Rather, it was made as a collaborating between Disney and Square Enix, with both companies contributing equally. If Kingdom Hearts were purely Disney, I'd maybe agree with you, but you have to remember that Square Enix, a video game development company, has equal stake.

There are plenty of arguments against Sora's inclusion. NonSpecificGuy and @PlayerOneTyler can tell you how absolutely hard-headed and difficult to work with Disney legal can be, regardless of whether or not Disney Execs say Sora's inclusion is possible.

However, "Sora isn't a video game character" is NOT one such point. Rather, it's a sign of misunderstanding about the Kingdom Hearts franchise and what it is. You're free to have your opinions, but until you present me with evidence I can't take your argument seriously.

Oh no, my stance on Sora has shifted for a while now.

Remember I interned at Disney?

 

[Idon]

>how people think kids will react if Disney content isn't included in Smash with Sora.

>how kids will actually react if Sora DOES come with Disney content.

 

[Ben Holt]

He is making the case so proving Sora is not a videogame character falls on him. People already gave reasons as to why Sora is considered a videogame character including Sakurai congratulating Nomura, if the other side cant present anything its safe to assume Sora is a videogame character.

So if Sakurai congratulates a producer of a Batman game in the future, does that mean that the Arkham version (technically it's own video game original Batman story) of Batman is a video game character?
That's how ridiculous that argument is.

 

[DarthEnderX]

He is making the case so proving Sora is not a videogame character falls on him.

I mean, he doesn't have to prove anything. He made a statement that doesn't currently have a true/false status. You don't agree with him, that's fine, but he's neither right or wrong because the truth simply isn't known.

People already gave reasons as to why Sora is considered a videogame character including Sakurai congratulating Nomura

...how does that prove that exactly?

 

[KatKit]

Oh no, my stance on Sora has shifted for a while now.

Remember I interned at Disney?

If you've learned what I've learned, then you know that they're basically down for it if Nintendo is, ahaha.

 

[Deleted member]

So if Sakurai congratulates a producer of a Batman game in the future, does that mean that the Arkham version (technically it's own video game original Batman story) of Batman is a video game character?
That's how ridiculous that argument is.

Not more ridiculous than yours, especially since Sakurai was referring to the hardships of managing different IPs within the game. The series is a crossover that involves Final Fantasy as well, does that mean they are Mickey Mouse characters?

I'm still waiting on something to back your statement. But it seems that I will probably will keep waiting as you won't still deliver.

 

[MBRedboy31]

If Sora does get in, I wonder how they would handle the Mickey Mouse keychain on the Kingdom Key (since it’s his most iconic Keyblade, so I’d imagine they’d want to include it over any other alternative if possible.) Would they leave it as is? Would they replace just the keychain and leave the rest intact? Would they give him another Keyblade entirely? Would they make up a new Smash-centric Keyblade?

 

[Ben Holt]

I'm not saying that Sora isn't a video game character.
I'm just saying that he's EXTREMELY unlikely to the point where if I were told today by some divine being that Fighter 5 is either Sora or Kratos, I'd bank on Kratos.
Sora is a video game character, but his series is a spinoff of the Disney Universe.
Furthermore, if Sakurai were hell bent on including Sora, he's caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to representing Sora. Without Disney references, the character loses its identity. With Disney references, Smash's "purity" as all video game content is destroyed.

 

[VongolaFair]

If DLC for Ultimate goes until at least 2021 my hopes for a SMT rep (Demi-Fiend) will be a whoooooole lot stronger than it is now.

 

[PLATINUM7]

I really don't get your logic here. It feels as if you have no grounds for your argument, and, when presented with evidence on the contrary, have to resort to calling myself and Sora's fans biased rather than presenting any evidence of your own. If true, I find that rather offensive.

I think you're conflating Kingdom Hearts and Disney. The whole purpose of Kingdom Hearts has never been to "be a Disney spinoff" (there is no such thing as a Mickey Mouse spinoff since Mickey Mouse isn't a franchise; he and his friends fall under Classic Disney, or just Disney itself). Rather, it was made as a collaborating between Disney and Square Enix, with both companies contributing equally. If Kingdom Hearts were purely Disney, I'd maybe agree with you, but you have to remember that Square Enix, a video game development company, has equal stake.

There are plenty of arguments against Sora's inclusion. NonSpecificGuy and @PlayerOneTyler can tell you how absolutely hard-headed and difficult to work with Disney legal can be, regardless of whether or not Disney Execs say Sora's inclusion is possible.

However, "Sora isn't a video game character" is NOT one such point. Rather, it's a sign of misunderstanding about the Kingdom Hearts franchise and what it is. You're free to have your opinions, but until you present me with evidence I can't take your argument seriously.

Trying to argue KH isn't a video game series is silly but saying Mickey Mouse isn't a franchise isn't the way to go about showing that when there's an entire series of films called Mickey Mouses.

 

[Fenriraga]

If Sora does get in, I wonder how they would handle the Mickey Mouse keychain on the Kingdom Key (since it’s his most iconic Keyblade, so I’d imagine they’d want to include it over any other alternative if possible.) Would they leave it as is? Would they replace just the keychain and leave the rest intact? Would they give him another Keyblade entirely? Would they make up a new Smash-centric Keyblade?

I don't think the keychain would be a big deal at all. If there was no Disney content, I think that would be able to slide just fine.

 

[VongolaFair]

If Sora does get in, I wonder how they would handle the Mickey Mouse keychain on the Kingdom Key (since it’s his most iconic Keyblade, so I’d imagine they’d want to include it over any other alternative if possible.) Would they leave it as is? Would they replace just the keychain and leave the rest intact? Would they give him another Keyblade entirely? Would they make up a new Smash-centric Keyblade?

I’m curious about this also...

 

[Idon]

Bro are you serious? Cloud could never be a part of Smash because he's not a game character, he's a guy that originates from the "Panasonic FOMA P900iV phone" series.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If Sora does get in, I wonder how they would handle the Mickey Mouse keychain on the Kingdom Key (since it’s his most iconic Keyblade, so I’d imagine they’d want to include it over any other alternative if possible.) Would they leave it as is? Would they replace just the keychain and leave the rest intact? Would they give him another Keyblade entirely? Would they make up a new Smash-centric Keyblade?

Ultima Weapon Keyblade?

 

[osby]

I'm not saying that Sora isn't a video game character.
I'm just saying that he's EXTREMELY unlikely to the point where if I were told today by some divine being that Fighter 5 is either Sora or Kratos, I'd bank on Kratos.
Sora is a video game character, but his series is a spinoff of the Disney Universe.
Furthermore, if Sakurai were hell bent on including Sora, he's caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to representing Sora. Without Disney references, the character loses its identity. With Disney references, Smash's "purity" as all video game content is destroyed.

His series isn't a spin-off. It's a crossover between Disney and Square Enix.

Also, Sora has more to his personality and abilities than just Disney references.

 

[Deleted member]

Nippon Ichi was deconfirmed as whole? I know Laharl from Disgaea wasn't really likely at all, but it was nice to imagine; darn.

 

[Ben Holt]

Bro are you serious? Cloud could never be a part of Smash because he's not a game character, he's a guy that originates from the "Panasonic FOMA P900iV" series.
View attachment 248329

Extreme strawman.

 

[Calamitas]

Damn, what a thing to wake up to! My condolences to all RE supporters - though I'll have to admit that I am quite happy about this revelation. Not only are the two only third-party characters that I want a bit more likely now (Phoenix and Amaterasu), but it also furthers my belief hope that FP5 is gonna be first-party.

 

[PLATINUM7]

If Sora does get in, I wonder how they would handle the Mickey Mouse keychain on the Kingdom Key (since it’s his most iconic Keyblade, so I’d imagine they’d want to include it over any other alternative if possible.) Would they leave it as is? Would they replace just the keychain and leave the rest intact? Would they give him another Keyblade entirely? Would they make up a new Smash-centric Keyblade?

Keep it probably.

It managed to stay in FF Record Keeper. As for Smash, we've had minor non-video game content before with the proximity mine from GoldenEye. Heck we've had Disney properties mentioned in Brawl's chronicle.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Just because you don't accept the argument doesn't invalidate it.
I don't mean to bring philosophy into this, but you're all falling for the "appeal to the masses" fallacy.
Saying that SMT is BASED on a book isn't the same as being FROM the book.
That's like saying Mario is based on Popeye, so he's in Sora's position.
Sora is fundamentally INSEPARABLE from Mickey Mouse. Even the Keyblade has a pendant of the Mickey Mouse logo.
Even if Sora jumps through every loop to avoid Disney references, that would essentially destroy what makes Sora, Sora.
And if we're bringing Sakurai statements into this, Sakurai has said on multiple occasions that he wants characters in Smash to be representative of how they are in their home series.
As far as someone from the Kingdom Hearts series speaking about Sora in Smash, that is countered by the fact that Funimation publicly tried to get Goku into Smash.

Bro you're talking to the Philosophy major here. I use Philosophy in all of my arguments here.

If we're going to throw around fallacies,et me suggest one: You're making a hasty generalization. Let's lay out your argument as I understand it:

P1: Sora is owned by Disney
P2: Disney is not a video game development company
C: Sora is not a video game character

You later moved the goal posts to:

P1: Kingdom Hearts has Disney in it
P2: Sora is a Kingdom Hearts character
P3: Disney is not a video game franchise
C: Sora is not a video game character

To talk about validity, the validity of this argument can technically not be proven/disproven, but considering Sakurai's statement calling the Kingdom Hearts series "games," we can assume that the conslusion "Sora is not a video game character" is false, since Sora is from a video game, and would therefore be a video game character. If the conclusion is false, the argument is then, logically, invalid.

The definition of a hasty generalization is:

Drawing a conclusion based on a small sample size, rather than looking at statistics that are much more in line with the typical or average situation.

Essentially, drawing a conclusion from a small sample size or exceptional case (to which I will admit this is).

Your basic rule is "Disney is not a video game company," and therefore, since Sora is owned by Disney, he is not a video game character, which is your conclusion. This is incorrect, considering that Disney has recently been stepping into the video game industry more, especially now (see: Disney hiring a former Playstation executive to head their Video Game Licensing). Furthermore, characters from companies not dedicated to video games have already gotten in (see: Banjo & Kazooie, owned by Microsoft; there's also a case for special pleading to be made here since the similarities between Sora and Banjo are actually rather large, and if I recall correctly you advocated for Banjo but that's neither here nor there).

There's also the circular nature of your argument, wherein you say "Sora can't be in Smash Bros. because he's owned by Disney!" and when people ask for elaboration or provide evidence of the contrary you say, "He's owned by Disney so he can't be in Smash!"

Not really related to anything, but the "attempt" from Funimation to get Goku into Smash was a PR gag. If they were to seriously try there's no way they'd walk up to Nintendo like that.

This really seems like you trying to argue your opinion when you have no evidence to back it up. If you've got evidence to contradict any of the evidence myself or others have presented you with and I'll reconsider, but otherwise your argument actually is actually invalid.

 

[Ben Holt]

Bro you're talking to the Philosophy major here. I use Philosophy in all of my arguments here.

If we're going to throw around fallacies,et me suggest one: You're making a hasty generalization. Let's lay out your argument as I understand it:

P1: Sora is owned by Disney
P2: Disney is not a video game development company
C: Sora is not a video game character

You later moved the goal posts to:

P1: Kingdom Hearts has Disney in it
P2: Sora is a Kingdom Hearts character
P3: Disney is not a video game franchise
C: Sora is not a video game character

To talk about validity, the validity of this argument can technically not be proven/disproven, but considering Sakurai's statement calling the Kingdom Hearts series "games," we can assume that the conslusion "Sora is not a video game character" is false, since Sora is from a video game, and would therefore be a video game character. If the conclusion is false, the argument is then, logically, invalid.

The definition of a hasty generalization is:

Essentially, drawing a conclusion from a small sample size or exceptional case (to which I will admit this is).

Your basic rule is "Disney is not a video game company," and therefore, since Sora is owned by Disney, he is not a video game character, which is your conclusion. This is incorrect, considering that Disney has recently been stepping into the video game industry more, especially now (see: Disney hiring a former Playstation executive to head their Video Game Licensing). Furthermore, characters from companies not dedicated to video games have already gotten in (see: Banjo & Kazooie, owned by Microsoft; there's also a case for special pleading to be made here since the similarities between Sora and Banjo are actually rather large, and if I recall correctly you advocated for Banjo but that's neither here nor there).

There's also the circular nature of your argument, wherein you say "Sora can't be in Smash Bros. because he's owned by Disney!" and when people ask for elaboration or provide evidence of the contrary you say, "He's owned by Disney so he can't be in Smash!"

Not really related to anything, but the "attempt" from Funimation to get Goku into Smash was a PR gag. If they were to seriously try there's no way they'd walk up to Nintendo like that.

This really seems like you trying to argue your opinion when you have no evidence to back it up. If you've got evidence to contradict any of the evidence myself or others have presented you with and I'll reconsider, but otherwise your argument actually is actually invalid.

Wrong. Completely misrepresented my argument.

I'm not saying that Sora isn't a video game character.
I'm just saying that he's EXTREMELY unlikely to the point where if I were told today by some divine being that Fighter 5 is either Sora or Kratos, I'd bank on Kratos.
Sora is a video game character, but his series is a spinoff of the Disney Universe.

 

[Izanagi97]

Are we seriously back to the Sora argument again

 

[Ben Holt]

Are we seriously back to the Sora argument again

The Sora argument will continue until Sora comes to Smash.
So it'll never end.

 

[Deleted member]

So two people have heard good news for Sora? Well he's a lock everyone wrap it up.

there goes my hopes for Geno... Aw man...

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Wrong. Completely misrepresented my argument.

My bad then. The case for special pleading still stands though.

It seems like your argument comes down to how Sora would translate to Smash, which is largely a matter of personal opinion. There are many such as myself who believe Kingdom Hearts has more than enough to stand on its own without Disney references. There are others, such as yourself, who believe Kingdom Hearts needs Disney to be Kingdom Hearts, which is understandable.

However, if you've played the series you would know that Kingdom Hearts 3 largely treated the Disney worlds as filler and largely left all of the important story content to the original worlds (Twilight Town, Realm of Darkness, Keyblade Graveyard, Scala, etc.). KH2 largely did the same. The only KH game where the Disney worlds were a large part of the story was the first game. Since then they've only been around half of the experience, with FF and original content taking up the larger half. I believe that myself and others are more than justified in believing that Sora and the Kingdom Hearts series could stand on their own in Smash.

Are we seriously back to the Sora argument again

It pretty much always comes down to:

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Mfw I realize Fatman talking about Sol may lead to Sabi looking into Sol and Verge going "It ain't Sol"

 

[Idon]

It pretty much always comes down to:

>stealing from my stache of carefully procured memes

 

[osby]

Mfw I realize Fatman talking about Sol may lead to Sabi looking into Sol and Verge going "It ain't Sol"

Knowing where he makes this face gives this pic a new perspective.

 

[GoodGrief741]

What Spirits? Mickey, Donald, and Goofy?
I really hate to be negative to Sora fans, but Sora will NEVER be in Smash.
He's in the same category as characters like Android 21. She's a video game original character, but she's part of the Dragon Ball series, which is not a video game series and is therefore ineligible for Smash.
Sora is an original video game character, but he's part of the Mickey Mouse franchise, which is not originally from a video game, so everyone in that series is ineligible for Smash.

Allow me to laugh really hard in your face for suggesting that somehow Kingdom Hearts is a spin-off of Mickey Mouse.

HA

Who owns Sora?
Disney.
He is a Disney character first and foremost.
I know that's hard to swallow, but until Sora is revealed, I put his chances at lower even than Kratos.
I don't hate him; I'm indifferent. But Sora is simply strung too tightly to the Disney universe for me to even consider him possible.

Which is why the dude's made appearances in Final Fantasy spin-offs without Disney content. So inseparable.

 

[cothero]

Screw Sora. If we're getting a Square rep, i'm rooting for Lara.

 

[Kokiden]

If Sora was to get in, doesn't that mean they'd have to ask Disney, not SE, for the rights?

Aren't Disney known to be money grubbing assholes as well? I'd imagine they would demand a heeeefty fee for Sora to be included, let alone other characters in the KH series.

It's not just for the stage, but the event spirits too. Every DLC so far has accompanying spirits to go with them.

What I'm saying is, it's not just about asking for Sora to be in Smash, but the spirits for Donald and Goofy too, since they're main characters in the series.

Disney are pricks so they'd probably put the rights to these behind a loooot of money and red tape nonsense.

It seems easier to go with another character tbh, but that's just my thought process on the matter.

 

[Ben Holt]

It seems like your argument comes down to how Sora would translate to Smash, which is largely a matter of personal opinion. There are many such as myself who believe Kingdom Hearts has more than enough to stand on its own without Disney references. There are others, such as yourself, who believe Kingdom Hearts needs Disney to be Kingdom Hearts, which is understandable.

I guess therein lies the fundamental disagreement.

 

[AEMehr]

Sora could be cool I guess, but I don't see the appeal for him as a fighter. I guess he's a mobile swordsman with a variety of spells / summons right?

If his normal combat incorporated Donald and Goofy I think that would be a lot of fun to work around with, but I don't really see a lot that strikes out to me as "interesting" gameplay-wise that he offers naturally alone. I see him designed by fans to be a Sheik-like take (combo-oriented with very few attacks with real kb) on a Swordfighter and iunno the concept is kinda new (Meta Knight and even Young Link short of have a similar idea in how their normals are treated) but doesn't sell the character to me.

While I have no interest in Persona, Dragon Quest, Banjo-Kazooie, or Fatal Fury; the characters all still boast fun and interesting gameplay that make them their own. I'm still happy they're in Smash, because they added a lot of new ways to play.

I'm just trying to figure out what the heck Sora can offer that should make me interested in the character.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

>stealing from my stache of carefully procured memes
View attachment 248332

You didn't post it so I went

Sorry not sorry >:^P

 

[osby]

What I'm saying is, it's not just about asking for Sora to be in Smash, but the spirits for Donald and Goofy too, since they're main characters in the series.

Disney are pricks so they'd probably put the rights to these behind a loooot of money and red tape nonsense.

Or they'll just make Kingdom Hearts original characters Spirits.