Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Deleted member]

What Spirits? Mickey, Donald, and Goofy?
I really hate to be negative to Sora fans, but Sora will NEVER be in Smash.
He's in the same category as characters like Android 21. She's a video game original character, but she's part of the Dragon Ball series, which is not a video game series and is therefore ineligible for Smash.
Sora is an original video game character, but he's part of the Mickey Mouse franchise, which is not originally from a video game, so everyone in that series is ineligible for Smash.

You can't be serious.

 

[TheCJBrine]

It's Fatman, so it can be tossed in the garbage.

Bare in mind this is a complete contradiction to what he said last week, which was that there were 4 names all from different companies that shared something in common.

Sometimes characters they hear get hit badly. There’s actually more than just four characters they’ve heard as a whole, just insiders keep disconfirming some.

And, again, he’s speculating.

Y’all could take a look at his posts in the Geno thread.

 

[Ben Holt]

You can't be serious.

Controversial, but accurate.

 

[perfectchaos83]

Sometimes characters they hear get hit badly. There’s actually more than just four characters they’ve heard as a whole, just insiders keep disconfirming some.

And, again, he’s speculating.

Y’all could take a look at his posts in the Geno thread.

I know he's speculating, that's what makes his posts useless. It doesn't help that his bits of speculation contradict each other in a short time span. He mentions they were all from different companies, yet now two of the names are from the same company.

He's not a leaker. He's not an insider. He's a dog walking around the table as the family eats dinner.

 

[Deleted member]

Controversial, but accurate.

I get the feeling that this is one of the conversations that happened already on the thread, which was kinda ridiculous. Sora is a videogame character from the franchise Kingdom Hearts, which has characters independent from the Mickey Mouse, Disney films and Final Fantasy which it has crossovers with. The only difference with a lot of characters in the speculation is that he is owned by a non-game company which is Disney. Still Sora is a game character, is popular and a valid option for Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

What Spirits? Mickey, Donald, and Goofy?
I really hate to be negative to Sora fans, but Sora will NEVER be in Smash.
He's in the same category as characters like Android 21. She's a video game original character, but she's part of the Dragon Ball series, which is not a video game series and is therefore ineligible for Smash.
Sora is an original video game character, but he's part of the Mickey Mouse franchise, which is not originally from a video game, so everyone in that series is ineligible for Smash.

*KH community gets their Sharingan on*

I won't be defending you for this...

 

[Droodle]

What Spirits? Mickey, Donald, and Goofy?
I really hate to be negative to Sora fans, but Sora will NEVER be in Smash.
He's in the same category as characters like Android 21. She's a video game original character, but she's part of the Dragon Ball series, which is not a video game series and is therefore ineligible for Smash.
Sora is an original video game character, but he's part of the Mickey Mouse franchise, which is not originally from a video game, so everyone in that series is ineligible for Smash.

I don't know what you're smoking, but Sora originated as a video game character; and Kingdom Hearts is first and foremost a videogame series, yes he does have characters like Mickey Mouse in his games; but putting Sora in doesn't require Mickey Mouse to be in.

On top of this, KH has like 30 major KH exclusive characters that literally have nothing to do with Disney characters like Mickey Mouse.

I guess Persona is impossible because it is a spinoff of Megami Tensei, which in of itself is based on the Digital Devil Story book.

I thought the whole Kingdom Hearts isn't a videogame franchise argument ended over a year ago. There are reasons for Sora to not get in Smash (Disney), but arguing KH isn't primarily a video game franchise is just dumb.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I know he's speculating, that's what makes his posts useless. It doesn't help that his bits of speculation contradict each other in a short time span. He mentions they were all from different companies, yet now two of the names are from the same company.

From what I can recall, nothing he’s said throughout all of his posts has contradicted something he’s said unless you count correcting himself because a character got hit badly, ending up possibly being bait or just got lowered chances, and he explained that to everyone.

To be fair though I don’t remember the post you’re referring to. Could it have not been a separate set of characters?

Of course I guess speculation is basically useless, I guess I just consider what he says because it’s an insider discord, Sabi doesn’t go against it, and he’s a cool guy.

 

[Izanagi97]

So I'm guessing we should keep an eye on info regarding KOS-MOS (I'm keeping Cat Leak 2 in the back of my mind until either deconfirmed or Fighter 5 is revealed), Lloyd, Nightmare, and Sol Badguy even if the latter 3 is just speculation and should be taken with a grain of salt (but hey, at least there are some names to work with until there is more info)

 

[perfectchaos83]

From what I can recall, nothing he’s said throughout all of his posts has contradicted something he’s said unless you count correcting himself because a character got hit badly, ending up possibly being bait or just got lowered chances, and he explained that to everyone.

To be fair though I don’t remember the post you’re referring to. Could it have not been a separate set of characters?

A separate set of characters from 5 days ago? I very heavily doubt it. This is the post in question

https://imgur.com/97qGzIC

 

[Deleted member]

So I'm guessing we should keep an eye on info regarding KOS-MOS (I'm keeping Cat Leak 2 in the back of my mind until either deconfirmed or Fighter 5 is revealed), Lloyd, Nightmare, and Sol Badguy even if the latter 3 is just speculation and should be taken with a grain of salt (but hey, at least there are some names to work with until there is more info)

The cat leak has a TON of evidence going for it, along with a Rule of Three as discussed.

 

[TheCJBrine]

A separate set of characters from 5 days ago? I very heavily doubt it. This is the post in question

https://imgur.com/97qGzIC

Alright, I don’t know anymore.

I’ll still consider what he says, but that is suspect.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I fail to see how Sora is a "Mickey mouse" character, if he were we'd see him pop up more since he's a really popular character. But nah he's officially a game character from a game franchise through and through.

I see no problem with him coming in when other third parties exclude certain important characters

Side note: give me a Rallen mii outfit with Sora, That's another game character owned by Disney.

 

[Ben Holt]

I don't know what you're smoking, but Sora originated as a video game character; and Kingdom Hearts is first and foremost a videogame series, yes he does have characters like Mickey Mouse in his games; but putting Sora in doesn't require Mickey Mouse to be in.

On top of this, KH has like 30 major KH exclusive characters that literally have nothing to do with Disney characters like Mickey Mouse.

I guess Persona is impossible because it is a spinoff of Megami Tensei, which in of itself is based on the Digital Devil Story book.

I thought the whole Kingdom Hearts isn't a videogame franchise argument ended over a year ago. There are reasons for Sora to not get in Smash (Disney), but arguing KH isn't primarily a video game franchise is just dumb.

Who owns Sora?
Disney.
He is a Disney character first and foremost.
I know that's hard to swallow, but until Sora is revealed, I put his chances at lower even than Kratos.
I don't hate him; I'm indifferent. But Sora is simply strung too tightly to the Disney universe for me to even consider him possible.

 

[VongolaFair]

If I see Yakuza or Devil May Cry spirits man that would be a dark day.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

What Spirits? Mickey, Donald, and Goofy?
I really hate to be negative to Sora fans, but Sora will NEVER be in Smash.
He's in the same category as characters like Android 21. She's a video game original character, but she's part of the Dragon Ball series, which is not a video game series and is therefore ineligible for Smash.
Sora is an original video game character, but he's part of the Mickey Mouse franchise, which is not originally from a video game, so everyone in that series is ineligible for Smash.

You tell me where Sakurai talks about video game original characters in an interview (bonus points if he references Sora specifically) and I'll believe you. Otherwise, I'm going to take this as another arbitrary fan rule.

Otherwise, I'll choose to believe the words of people like Justin Scarpone, who has commented on the matter of Sora in Smash. Or Sakurai himself, who congratulated Normura for the 15th anniversary of his "games" (for future reference, the Kingdom Hearts series is not the Mickey Mouse franchise, whatever that is).

 

[Deleted member]

If I see Yakuza or Devil May Cry spirits man that would be a dark day.

One fear.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

*sees the RE news*
At... At least Sol isn't dead yet...

 

[Deleted member]

*sees the RE news*
At... At least Sol isn't dead yet...

And you have your Fatman leak.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

And you have your Fatman leak.

What, did MGS2 predict something again?

 

[KatKit]

I really hope 2B gets in.

Gameplay, choreography, and animations in NieR Automata were so good. I think they would translate well into Smash, so she'd be an excellent fighter.

Most importantly, she would be fun to play as too.

One of us... One of us.

 

[Ben Holt]

View attachment 248315

You tell me where Sakurai talks about video game original characters in an interview (bonus points if he references Sora specifically) and I'll believe you. Otherwise, I'm going to take this as another arbitrary fan rule.

Otherwise, I'll choose to believe the words of people like Justin Scarpone, who has commented on the matter of Sora in Smash. Or Sakurai himself, who congratulated Normura for the 15th anniversary of his "games."

Sora being the exception is the fan rule.
Sora is owned by Disney. Kingdom Hearts itself is a spinoff of Mickey Mouse.
I know I will get hate for it. I know I will not get likes for these posts, but the entire logic is, "Sora is the exception because I like him."
By this logic, Wreck-It Ralph is eligible, because his origin was as a promotional arcade cabinet that predated the movie's launch.
Disney is not like Sega, Capcom, Activision, Bethesda, SNK, etc.
If Sora gets in despite EVERYTHING against him, I will personally kiss my cat's ass and film it.

 

[VongolaFair]

I’m not much of an Guilty Gear guy (my friends are) and if we were to get an Arc System Works rep Sol Badguy would be someone I like to see added in. WE ALREADY KNOW THE SMELL OF THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Droodle]

From what I can recall, nothing he’s said throughout all of his posts has contradicted something he’s said unless you count correcting himself because a character got hit badly, ending up possibly being bait or just got lowered chances, and he explained that to everyone.

To be fair though I don’t remember the post you’re referring to. Could it have not been a separate set of characters?

Of course I guess speculation is basically useless, I guess I just consider what he says because it’s an insider discord, Sabi doesn’t go against it, and he’s a cool guy.

He backtracked a ton during the Mii costumes leak. He went from this is most likely real, to I have some good news for this (Geno) thread, to it's real (99%), to it's fake or at least not character 5 in the span of a couple days.

Even just a week ago, he was saying that they have been hearing 4 repeated names for character 5; but also stated that there is a really good possibility that character 5 is none of the "known" characters and that it'll probably be an unexpected reveal and that fan-favorites will come post-pass. And then today he says there is a good chance of the character being Dante, and then later IN THE SAME DAY says that he thinks that Lloyd is the most likely character.

The dude backtracks a ton on his statements, and has a dodgy record; although admittedly his speculation is interesting to read.

Lloyd is one of the easiest guesses ever, and people have been saying it's most likely going to be him since the start of October.

I should say I'm a leaker because I have a 100% track record, but I just use common sense.

 

[DarthEnderX]

What Spirits? Mickey, Donald, and Goofy?

Riku, Kairi, Roxas, Aqua, Xehanort, etc.?

Sora is an original video game character, but he's part of the Mickey Mouse franchise, which is not originally from a video game, so everyone in that series is ineligible for Smash.

I've long said that this it's possible that this is the case.

But it's also possible that it's not.

Sora is a videogame character from the franchise Kingdom Hearts, which has characters independent from the Mickey Mouse, Disney films and Final Fantasy which it has crossovers with.

On the other hand, maybe Kingdom Hearts just a Disney crossover game, and is no more a video game property than, say, Jump Force.

 

[Deleted member]

Sora being the exception is the fan rule.
Sora is owned by Disney. Kingdom Hearts itself is a spinoff of Mickey Mouse.
I know I will get hate for it. I know I will not get likes for these posts, but the entire logic is, "Sora is the exception because I like him."
By this logic, Wreck-It Ralph is eligible, because his origin was as a promotional arcade cabinet that predated the movie's launch.
Disney is not like Sega, Capcom, Activision, Bethesda, SNK, etc.
If Sora gets in despite EVERYTHING against him, I will personally kiss my cat's ass and film it.

Mate, can you back the bolded statement? This is the second or third time you're asked this. Your logic pretty much is Sora is not elegible because you think he is a spinoff from Mickey Mouse which I'm going to be honest, its the first time I have heard this argument since I played KH back in the early 2000s. Game was marketed as a fusion of Disney and FF, and has evolved to its own identity apart from these franchises. It's a videogame franchise independent from Mickey Mouse and Final Fantasy.

It's hard to take seriously arguments like this without anything to back them up.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Sora being the exception is the fan rule.
Sora is owned by Disney. Kingdom Hearts itself is a spinoff of Mickey Mouse.
I know I will get hate for it. I know I will not get likes for these posts, but the entire logic is, "Sora is the exception because I like him."
By this logic, Wreck-It Ralph is eligible, because his origin was as a promotional arcade cabinet that predated the movie's launch.
Disney is not like Sega, Capcom, Activision, Bethesda, SNK, etc.
If Sora gets in despite EVERYTHING against him, I will personally kiss my cat's ass and film it.

I sometimes think about how surreal it would be to see Disney's name under the list of character credits. Lol

Mate, can you back the bolded statement? This is the second or third time you're asked this. Your logic pretty much is Sora is not elegible because you think he is a spinoff from Mickey Mouse which I'm going to be honest, its the first time I have heard this argument since I played KH back in the early 2000s. Game was marketed as a fusion of Disney and FF, and has evolved to its own identity apart from these franchises. It's a videogame franchise independent from Mickey Mouse and Final Fantasy.

It's hard to take seriously arguments like this without anything to back them up.

By all accounts calling Sora a Mickey mouse character is like calling Joker a Digital Devil character like what was stated earlier in the thread.

 

[Deleted member]

While you guys are speculating here's a meme ai made:

 

[Deleted member]

I sometimes think about how surreal it would be to see Disney's name under the list of character credits. Lol

We have Microsoft which is a Software company first and foremost.

 

[Droodle]

Sora being the exception is the fan rule.
Sora is owned by Disney. Kingdom Hearts itself is a spinoff of Mickey Mouse.
I know I will get hate for it. I know I will not get likes for these posts, but the entire logic is, "Sora is the exception because I like him."
By this logic, Wreck-It Ralph is eligible, because his origin was as a promotional arcade cabinet that predated the movie's launch.
Disney is not like Sega, Capcom, Activision, Bethesda, SNK, etc.
If Sora gets in despite EVERYTHING against him, I will personally kiss my cat's ass and film it.

Again, going by your logic Megami Tensei and Persona are "technically" book series; just because they happen to be clearly based on the Digital Devil Saga book. In fact the original MT games even had the exact same writer as the book. But wait that didn't stop Sakurai from adding an SMT spinoff to the game did it?

Wreck-it Ralph was created first and foremost for the movie, just like how Lucario is eligible because he was created for the Pokemon games first. Sora is owned by Disney, but his games were just that games. As far as I know Kingdom Hearts didn't originate as a TV show, Movie, or a Book.

 

[Ben Holt]

Sora bull**** aside, I truly am disappointed that Leon and Jill are basically deconfirmed at least for while.
Maybe some day if DLC continues into 2021.
This is a fan rule, I know, but I think that Spirits mean "we're not considering this character at the moment, but try again next time."

 

[VongolaFair]

When Sora gets added (which he will), what other characters do u think would match his reveal? Master Chief and Crash are the first ones to come to mind.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Sora being the exception is the fan rule.
Sora is owned by Disney. Kingdom Hearts itself is a spinoff of Mickey Mouse.
I know I will get hate for it. I know I will not get likes for these posts, but the entire logic is, "Sora is the exception because I like him."
By this logic, Wreck-It Ralph is eligible, because his origin was as a promotional arcade cabinet that predated the movie's launch.
Disney is not like Sega, Capcom, Activision, Bethesda, SNK, etc.
If Sora gets in despite EVERYTHING against him, I will personally kiss my cat's ass and film it.

I really don't get your logic here. It feels as if you have no grounds for your argument, and, when presented with evidence on the contrary, have to resort to calling myself and Sora's fans biased rather than presenting any evidence of your own. If true, I find that rather offensive.

I think you're conflating Kingdom Hearts and Disney. The whole purpose of Kingdom Hearts has never been to "be a Disney spinoff" (there is no such thing as a Mickey Mouse spinoff since Mickey Mouse isn't a franchise; he and his friends fall under Classic Disney, or just Disney itself). Rather, it was made as a collaborating between Disney and Square Enix, with both companies contributing equally. If Kingdom Hearts were purely Disney, I'd maybe agree with you, but you have to remember that Square Enix, a video game development company, has equal stake.

There are plenty of arguments against Sora's inclusion. NonSpecificGuy and PlayerOneTyler can tell you how absolutely hard-headed and difficult to work with Disney legal can be, regardless of whether or not Disney Execs say Sora's inclusion is possible.

However, "Sora isn't a video game character" is NOT one such point. Rather, it's a sign of misunderstanding about the Kingdom Hearts franchise and what it is. You're free to have your opinions, but until you present me with evidence I can't take your argument seriously.

 

[DevaAshera]

What Spirits? Mickey, Donald, and Goofy?
I really hate to be negative to Sora fans, but Sora will NEVER be in Smash.
He's in the same category as characters like Android 21. She's a video game original character, but she's part of the Dragon Ball series, which is not a video game series and is therefore ineligible for Smash.
Sora is an original video game character, but he's part of the Mickey Mouse franchise, which is not originally from a video game, so everyone in that series is ineligible for Smash.

Kingdom Hearts isn't from the 'Mickey Mouse' franchise, he's from the Kingdom Hearts series, which is its own series of video games that feature crossovers with various Disney properties, but he, himself, is a video game character from a video game series.
Android 21 also can't get in because they wouldn't put a side character in over the main character, which would be Goku for Dragonball.

Who owns Sora?
Disney.
He is a Disney character first and foremost.
I know that's hard to swallow, but until Sora is revealed, I put his chances at lower even than Kratos.
I don't hate him; I'm indifferent. But Sora is simply strung too tightly to the Disney universe for me to even consider him possible.

It doesn't matter that Disney owns Sora and the Kingdom Hearts series, they are still a 3rd Party. I mean, if you want to get technical, Bandai Namco is only half a video game company, Bandai is a Toy Company and even more-so, Microsoft began and is still primarily a Computer Software Company that has a Video Game Development Branch, just like Disney used to have with Disney Interactive. As there is no such thing as a 4th Party, any company is eligible for Smash Bros. as long as they own video game characters.
Of course Sora is tied to the Disney universes, the entire Kingdom Hearts series was spurred by two things. 1) Square-Enix needing beloved recognized characters if they wanted to challenge Super Mario 64 and 2) the concept being Final Fantasy meets Disney.
The only thing that matters is how Sakurai views the character and considering he congratulated Nomura on the Anniversary of his games likely means that Sakurai would consider Sora as a video game character.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I fail to see how Sora is a "Mickey mouse" character, if he were we'd see him pop up more since he's a really popular character. But nah he's officially a game character from a game franchise through and through.

I see no problem with him coming in when other third parties exclude certain important characters

Side note: give me a Rallen mii outfit with Sora, That's another game character owned by Disney.
View attachment 248317

Is that...Spectrobes?

You have good taste my guy. I'd love seeing Spectrobes acknowledgement in any way.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Mate, can you back the bolded statement?

He can't. But you can't back up that's it's not the case either.

Whether KH is considered a part or the larger Disney cartoon franchise or not is really up to Nintendo and Disney's interpretation. And neither have made an official statement on the subject.

By all accounts calling Sora a Mickey mouse character is like calling Joker a Digital Devil character like what was stated earlier in the thread.

It's more like calling Galena a Shounen Jump character.

 

[MyDude213]

Sora being the exception is the fan rule.
Sora is owned by Disney. Kingdom Hearts itself is a spinoff of Mickey Mouse.
I know I will get hate for it. I know I will not get likes for these posts, but the entire logic is, "Sora is the exception because I like him."
By this logic, Wreck-It Ralph is eligible, because his origin was as a promotional arcade cabinet that predated the movie's launch.
Disney is not like Sega, Capcom, Activision, Bethesda, SNK, etc.
If Sora gets in despite EVERYTHING against him, I will personally kiss my cat's ass and film it.

Okay first off KH is not a "spinoff" of Mickey Mouse, KH isn't a game that REVOLVES around Mickey Mouse so that statement is just outright wrong. Secondly you've yet to actually back your idiology up with any actual valid reasoning or proof of claim. That doesn't essentially boil down to "well that's what I think so it must be true!" Which makes your argument weak as **** when you're arguing against people who are using ACTUAL official statements from actual people. Who's take actually matters when talking about the possibility of the character in question being added. You essentially saying "well that's how I feel about it so you can't argue my logic" is pretty laughable.

 

[Ben Holt]

I really don't get your logic here. It feels as if you have no grounds for your argument, and, when presented with evidence on the contrary, have to resort to calling myself and Sora's fans biased rather than presenting any evidence of your own. If true, I find that rather offensive.

I think you're conflating Kingdom Hearts and Disney. The whole purpose of Kingdom Hearts has never been to "be a Disney spinoff" (there is no such thing as a Mickey Mouse spinoff since Mickey Mouse isn't a franchise; he and his friends fall under Classic Disney, or just Disney itself). Rather, it was made as a collaborating between Disney and Square Enix, with both companies contributing equally. If Kingdom Hearts were purely Disney, I'd maybe agree with you, but you have to remember that Square Enix, a video game development company, has equal stake.

There are plenty of arguments against Sora's inclusion. NonSpecificGuy and PlayerOneTyler can tell you how absolutely hard-headed and difficult to work with Disney legal can be, regardless of whether or not Disney Execs say Sora's inclusion is possible.

However, "Sora isn't a video game character" is NOT one such point. Rather, it's a sign of misunderstanding about the Kingdom Hearts franchise and what it is. You're free to have your opinions, but until you present me with evidence I can't take your argument seriously.

Just because you don't accept the argument doesn't invalidate it.
I don't mean to bring philosophy into this, but you're all falling for the "appeal to the masses" fallacy.
Saying that SMT is BASED on a book isn't the same as being FROM the book.
That's like saying Mario is based on Popeye, so he's in Sora's position.
Sora is fundamentally INSEPARABLE from Mickey Mouse. Even the Keyblade has a pendant of the Mickey Mouse logo.
Even if Sora jumps through every loop to avoid Disney references, that would essentially destroy what makes Sora, Sora.
And if we're bringing Sakurai statements into this, Sakurai has said on multiple occasions that he wants characters in Smash to be representative of how they are in their home series.
As far as someone from the Kingdom Hearts series speaking about Sora in Smash, that is countered by the fact that Funimation publicly tried to get Goku into Smash.

 

[MyDude213]

He can't. But you can't back up that's it's not the case either.

Whether KH is considered a part or the larger Disney cartoon franchise or not is really up to Nintendo and Disney's interpretation. And neither have made an official statement on the subject.

KH isn't a cartoon franchise it's a video game franchise it has never once appeared on live television as a cartoon. That argument makes even less sense when you explain it that way.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Just because you don't accept the argument doesn't invalidate it.
I don't mean to bring philosophy into this, but you're all falling for the "appeal to the masses" fallacy.
Saying that SMT is BASED on a book isn't the same as being FROM the book.
That's like saying Mario is based on Popeye, so he's in Sora's position.
Sora is fundamentally INSEPARABLE from Mickey Mouse. Even the Keyblade has a pendant of the Mickey Mouse logo.
Even if Sora jumps through every loop to avoid Disney references, that would essentially destroy what makes Sora, Sora.
And if we're bringing Sakurai statements into this, Sakurai has said on multiple occasions that he wants characters in Smash to be representative of how they are in their home series.
As far as someone from the Kingdom Hearts series speaking about Sora in Smash, that is countered by the fact that Funimation publicly tried to get Goku into Smash.

I really don't care about this argument but Shin Megami Tensei'd source material is called Megami Tensei which is more than "based on"