Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Jassassino]

Missed the discussion but Assassin's Creed is a brilliant franchise with well above average storytelling, atmosphere and production value.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Then I guess that The Legend of Zelda is average at best

Why's that?

 

[Night Gale]

The fact that there are people who question Apex of the World being best Three Houses Final Boss theme staggers me.

It is best final boss theme and no one can change my mind lmao.

Spoiler

God Shattering Star (Rain) is better imo but all boss themes should be in Super Smash.

 

[Wigglerman]

Why's that?

Because, compared to other rpg series out there, TLOZ is pretty...basic. I like the series well enough but it's far from the most ground breaking or awe inspiring. Game play is generally pretty basic too. Breath of the Wild was the biggest breakthrough in the series IMO but even then it's treading samey territory. Story is pretty samey. It's passable, it's fun but it's average if we want to be honest with ourselves. The Witcher III it isn't.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Missed the discussion but Assassin's Creed is a brilliant franchise with well above average storytelling, atmosphere and production value.

Production values and some of the atmosphere I can agree with as being above average... but the storytelling... the storytelling is where Assassin's Creed feels the need to tell a more complex story than it actually is and it becomes a real mess. Like, it's not the worst for a video game, but I think Assassin's Creed really struggles to understand how to tell stories without making a mess of its own narratives. I do think it has gotten better the more it has moved away from Desmond and the need to somehow tie this back into modern day stuff, but still, I do think AC just struggles in its stories.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Because, compared to other rpg series out there, TLOZ is pretty...basic. I like the series well enough but it's far from the most ground breaking or awe inspiring. Game play is generally pretty basic too. Breath of the Wild was the biggest breakthrough in the series IMO but even then it's treading samey territory. Story is pretty samey. It's passable, it's fun but it's average if we want to be honest with ourselves. The Witcher III it isn't.

I wasn't asking you, and that doesn't answer the question anyway.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

My take on western 3rd parties is that, frankly, it depends on if Westerns are going to be scarce or not. Banjo-Kazooie is the only one we’ve gotten, but for all we know we could get more.

I used to think we wouldn’t get any. However, Assassin’s Creed is flippin’ massive. Just checking Wikipedia of the “highest selling game series”, and the series currently sits at a cool $140 million, just $2 million under Final Fantasy. Not that sales make a character or series a better pick, but I mean...that’s pretty incredible. A series that has outsold Mario Kart has something to stand on with Smash.

Hasn’t had a chance until now to get into Smash, but I definitely would think of it as a possibility going forward.

 

[Night Gale]

Because, compared to other rpg series out there, TLOZ is pretty...basic. I like the series well enough but it's far from the most ground breaking or awe inspiring. Game play is generally pretty basic too. Breath of the Wild was the biggest breakthrough in the series IMO but even then it's treading samey territory. Story is pretty samey. It's passable, it's fun but it's average if we want to be honest with ourselves. The Witcher III it isn't.

Daring today, aren't we.

 

[Wigglerman]

I wasn't asking you, and that doesn't answer the question anyway.

Welcome to a forum where even if you don't address me personally, I have the freedom to weigh in. I also fail to see how I didn't answer the question.

Night Gale

If you wanna call it being 'daring'. The LOZ is a fair franchise. It's fun, it brings whimsy, but it isn't really the best RPG out there by a country mile. BOTW had me hooked and I love it to death. But c'mon, even with how fun that game is, it isn't close to being the best in the genre. It more along the lines of caught Zelda up with what other RPGs have been doing for years now. If BOTW2 can up the ante, that'd be pretty rad.

 

[RaintheCriminalWhirlwind]

Daring today, aren't we.

Oh-ho-ho-ho-ho! They are very daring

Production values and some of the atmosphere I can agree with as being above average... but the storytelling... the storytelling is where Assassin's Creed feels the need to tell a more complex story than it actually is and it becomes a real mess. Like, it's not the worst for a video game, but I think Assassin's Creed really struggles to understand how to tell stories without making a mess of its own narratives. I do think it has gotten better the more it has moved away from Desmond and the need to somehow tie this back into modern day stuff, but still, I do think AC just struggles in its stories.

Desmond did hold back AC a lot

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Well it's one month to Christmas and 17 days to TGA. Gonna be a slow holiday period.

 

[GKMLTTSB]

My take on western 3rd parties is that, frankly, it depends on if Westerns are going to be scarce or not. Banjo-Kazooie is the only one we’ve gotten, but for all we know we could get more.

I used to think we wouldn’t get any. However, Assassin’s Creed flippin’ massive. Just checking Wikipedia of the “highest selling game series”, and the series currently sits at a cool $140 million, just $2 million under Final Fantasy. Not that sales make a character or series a better pick, but I mean...that’s pretty incredible. A series that has outsold Mario Kart has something to stand on with Smash.

Hasn’t had a chance until now to get into Smash, but I definitely would think of it as a possibility going forward.

Going from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_video_game_franchises

Final Fantasy is shown at $10 billion+ vs. AssCreed at $4 billion+...

Not sure where the numbers you got were from, or which are more accurate (more legwork than I'm keen to put in right now), but eh...
AC is obviously no slouch, even still.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Welcome to a forum where even if you don't address me personally, I have the freedom to weigh in. I also fail to see how I didn't answer the question.

I asked "Why's that?" in response to:

Then I guess that The Legend of Zelda is average at best

His wording suggests to me that he thinks that follows from my post he quoted. I don't see how, though.

Your post was just some unrelated reasons you think LoZ is average.

 

[Lamperouge]

Xenoblade. Rex was shot down, but there’s Elma or even Mecha-Fiora (Chrom paved the way for the latter I’d say)

no, KOS-MOS doesn’t count as she’s from Xenosaga.

Rex was shot down for this pass.

That being said, he arguably has a much better shot at being promoted than Elma and/or Fiora because of XC2's popularity and Sakurai's statements towards the game. Not saying that I wouldn't love to see Elma or Fiora, mind you (****, the latter is even in my sig), but I haven't seen any real reason to believe why Sakurai would promote their spirits over Rex.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Assassin's Creed in Smash? I for one have been waiting for AC vs AC for a long time now.

Personally don't care for the series, that said having one (or multiple like ) of the Assassin's would be rather unique from what's already on the roster.

 

[Deleted member]

English Hero presentation: 2.4M views
Japanese Hero presentation: 1.6M views
By the anti-Banjo crowd's logic, it wasn't Japan who wanted DQ content.

Have you compared to other characters numbers? Its the second most viewed of the DLC after Joker.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

Assassin's Creed in Smash? I for one have been waiting for AC vs AC for a long time now.

View attachment 248092
View attachment 248091

If they start releasing alternate costume DLC packs, now we know what Villager and Isabelle's costumes should be...

 

[Wigglerman]

I asked "Why's that?" in response to:

His wording suggests to me that he thinks that follows from my post he quoted. I don't see how, though.

Your post was just some unrelated reasons you think LoZ is average.

Because I am assuming that he views LOZ the same as you view ARMS. They both 'don't suck' but that's about it, yet Zelda has reps and ARMs doesn't. You claim they have to do more than 'not suck' to get a rep. Zelda doesn't suck...but I don't feel the series (outside of a select few LOZ titles) are more than 'not sucky'. So in that case, why again does ARMS not have at least one rep while Zelda has many? (Seniority not withstanding as seniority isn't exactly a basis for being included)

 

[kirbsmash]

why again does ARMS not have at least one rep while Zelda has many?

Because Arms comes out much, much, MUCH later than Zelda?

 

[SNEKeater]

I asked "Why's that?" in response to:

His wording suggests to me that he thinks that follows from my post he quoted. I don't see how, though.

Your post was just some unrelated reasons you think LoZ is average.

I wasn't seriously saying TLoZ is an average series. I said that as a kind of joke. You said ARMS should do more than not to suck to get a playable character and with my previous comment I alluded to the frequent discussion of "TLoZ never gets new characters". Basically I was just memeing saying Zelda is average and my reason for saying that was that the series had not received new characters for years.
I did the "joke" because I don't think ARMS is close to suck as I think your message implied. In any case we all have different opinions and it seems my joke wasn't that good, so don't worry haha.

 

[TechPowah]

re: Terry's presentation views > Banjo presentation

sorry if this was already pointed out, I was mostly skimming pages

but on top of Smash people already knowing Banjo more than Terry, which would prompt more to watch Terry's video

no one seemed to point out that Banjo was releasing that day
lots of people wouldn't have even needed that breakdown cause they knew he would have already been in the game before then anyway

 

[TheCJBrine]

If we’re talkin’ Western third-parties that are popular in Japan, my boi Steve is practically guaranteed.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Going from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_video_game_franchises

Final Fantasy is shown at $10 billion+ vs. AssCreed at $4 billion+...

Not sure where the numbers you got were from, or which are more accurate (more legwork than I'm keen to put in right now), but eh...
AC is obviously no slouch, even still.

I was referring to this list!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_game_franchises

That’s a pretty stark difference, but I’m sure there’s something in the fine print separating what each list is looking at!

 

[Wigglerman]

Because Arms comes out much, much, MUCH later than Zelda?

So did Splatoon, but Splatoon has a rep now (Granted several years later). ARMs came out 'long enough' before Smash Ultimate (A full year before). It wasn't like ARMS came out a month or two prior to Ultimate's launch.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

So did Splatoon, but Splatoon has a rep now. ARMs came out 'long enough' before Smash Ultimate (A full year before). It wasn't like ARMS came out a month or two prior to Ultimate's launch.

So did Xenoblade 2, but apparently both that and ARMS were past the "cutoff date". Persona 5 and Dragon Quest XI were before that cutoff date, but the fact they're 3rd party is probably another point in their favor

cause of this I personally don't expect Byleth or Legionis, but I can hope. Octoling (Octo Expansion) might make it if they reuse and tweak some Inkling assets

 

[kirbsmash]

So did Splatoon, but Splatoon has a rep now. ARMs came out 'long enough' before Smash Ultimate (A full year before). It wasn't like ARMS came out a month or two prior to Ultimate's launch.

Hmm. Okay, you have a point. Butttttt Splatoon was a huge hit. Arms did okay, I guess.

 

[Deleted member]

Another issue I have with the whole AT/Spirit upgrade is that people are taking this whole DLC as a waiting list for their most wanted and that there are no more possible options for DLC, that they just missed out barely being playable when there's the case that most characters would have never been considered even with more resources.

I fail to see what would make Sakurai pick most of the Spirits characters and upgrade them if there is an actual pool of characters without this status that he can choose from especially if there are other companies willing to negotiate in addition to choices like Astral Chain or Three Houses.

 

[RileyXY1]

I personally think that Spirits absolutely are not disconfirmations. I want Spirit promotions, but I don't know if we'll get any. It's still somewhat likely though.

 

[Wigglerman]

Hmm. Okay, you have a point. Butttttt Splatoon was a huge hit. Arms did okay, I guess.

Granted, but Sakurai has been making it clear that gameplay of a character is what will be the more deciding factor. Even if ARMS sold only okay, if he wanted to make ARMS characters playable, he sure could have. In that regard, the reason we don't have an ARMS rep is he couldn't make a move set he was satisfied with or wouldn't find them as fun in Smash's format, which is fine. But saying the reason that they aren't playable is because their game is 'simply passable and nothing more' isn't really a credible argument at this point, which is what I'm getting at. If it was all just by sheer sales figures or whatever, Game & Watch would hardly be in Smash to this date. How much money has G&W made lately to retain his spot on the roster? XD

Edit: I'll also note that Splatoon of course would sell way better. Fighting games always tend to sell lower than other types of games. Even if ARMS isn't a conventional fighting game, it will of course be a lower sales item. Splatoon is Fortnight before Fortnight. It's a fun, fast paced 'shooter' that people of any age can enjoy and suits well to either long or short game sessions. A very good pick up and play or grind session game, as shooters tend to be. Fighting games of any kind tend to have very select types of gamers, even non-conventional ones.

 

[TechPowah]

It's been a few posts since so i'll take a new post to make a quick clarification
I had meant to say that they announced Banjo was releasing that day before they said anything about a breakdown, which didn't happen with Terry
Banjo's release announcement was part of a direct, so most people that Banjo in Smash would have been relevant to, were already watching the livestream on Twitch or YT anyway

so there's less need for them to go back and watch the individual video for Banjo's breakdown

 

[GKMLTTSB]

I was referring to this list!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_game_franchises

That’s a pretty stark difference, but I’m sure there’s something in the fine print separating what each list is looking at!

Hmm. Those are apparently unit sales rather than revenue. Even then, I'd expect a larger disparity considering the disparity in revenue that is reported, but I'd imagine the financial numbers being used include factors beyond box sales, so subscriptions for XI and XIV (and DLC/MT purchases for AC) may be thrown in as well.

Additional media is potentially a factor too, though most frachises that have significant returns on that front have it reported separately on the wiki page... But I guess that depends on how the data is disclosed.

In the end, "They make a lot of money" is the take-home, I guess. >_>

 

[kirbsmash]

How much money has G&W made lately to retain his spot on the roster? XD

Dude, you're talking to a guy who just want old characters back in Smash that was cut. I don't know how to argue like you people.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I personally think that Spirits absolutely are not disconfirmations. I want Spirit promotions, but I don't know if we'll get any. It's still somewhat likely though.

My question is though...

What actually makes it likely? That’s something I’ve yet to understand.

If it’s fan demand, that gets pretty swiftly shut down considering fan demand for characters like Geno has been potent for years. It’s not like Sakurai hasn’t known.

Fan polls (which I hardly find meaningful anymore) show most fans are looking forward to 3rd parties. Sakurai has looked at “the record “ of playable character from nearly 40 different series. Many spirit/AT upgrades don’t do that.

All but 1 paid DLC newcomer (not counting Plant for obvious reasons) came from non-Nintendo sources. Corrin was specifically decided on as a character from a new game.

What would you say makes it somewhat likely? I’m curious.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Spirits discussion is always fun.

 

[Wigglerman]

Dude, you're talking to a guy who just want old characters back in Smash that was cut. I don't know how to argue like you people.

Oh I'm not arguing, man. I'm just making a point and also making a playful jab at the idea that 'it sold lots so it gets in over games that sold less'. Especially when Sakurai is making it clear that $ made isn't the biggest factor of who is being added in Smash or remains in Smash (Since G&W doesn't really make any money these days). I mean, heck, Banjo wasn't making any money for years yet...GUH HUH! He's here! So it's all about what Sakurai thinks will be fun and people will like, not the sales success of a character.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I wasn't seriously saying TLoZ is an average series. I said that as a kind of joke. You said ARMS should do more than not to suck to get a playable character and with my previous comment I alluded to the frequent discussion of "TLoZ never gets new characters". Basically I was just memeing saying Zelda is average and my reason for saying that was that the series had not received new characters for years.
I did the "joke" because I don't think ARMS is close to suck as I think your message implied. In any case we all have different opinions and it seems my joke wasn't that good, so don't worry haha.

That's what I figured. The joke relies on a logical fallacy, though. If you're interested in that, you can read the spoiler text.

Spoiler

You seem to have made a logical fallacy called 'affirming the consequent'.

ARMS didn't "get robbed." A game should have to do more than not suck to get playable representation in Smash.

I can rephrase that as:

If a game isn't better than average, it shouldn't get playable representation in Smash.

You then noted that a game didn't get playable representation in Smash and took it to mean that that game isn't better than average. That's a logical fallacy. A game can be better than average and not get playable representation. If that's not intuitive, you can check the truth table for P→Q.

 

[Deleted member]

The reason why ARMS or XBC2 were not picked was simple, development time was quite short and everything was decided before the release of ARMS. Timing is a big aspect as to why we get clones as well.

 

[yeet123]

Because, compared to other rpg series out there, TLOZ is pretty...basic. I like the series well enough but it's far from the most ground breaking or awe inspiring. Game play is generally pretty basic too. Breath of the Wild was the biggest breakthrough in the series IMO but even then it's treading samey territory. Story is pretty samey. It's passable, it's fun but it's average if we want to be honest with ourselves. The Witcher III it isn't.

Idk how ANYONE could call Zelda "basic" and "samey" when games like Link to the Past, Ocarina, and BOTW revolutionize the idea of action adventure games.

The clown school you went to mustve been Ivy League because I'm laughing at you rn

 

[Wigglerman]

The reason why ARMS or XBC2 were not picked was simple, development time was quite short and everything was decided before the release of ARMS. Timing is a big aspect as to why we get clones as well.

Here's to hoping they pop up in the future DLC Supposing they do more first parties, that is. Add those they may have wanted but didn't have time for, etc.

 

[PhantomShab]

Because, compared to other rpg series out there, TLOZ is pretty...basic.

That's probably because it's not an rpg.