Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

Idon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 24, 2018
Messages
7,690
Location
the end of the long road
NNID
Demi-fiend
Switch FC
King of Chaos
I figured they would have learned their lesson from Ryu and Roy being leaked for Smash 4, but apparently not. At least the use of code names makes speculation more interesting; I don't know much about Dragon Quest (I have 8 and 9, but I haven't gotten around to playing them), so if that code name is pointing to a hero from those games, I have no idea which one it would be.
Probably DQ3.
Apparently when Japan wants to reference DQ3 without saying Loto by name, they give the catch-all "Hero" title to someone.
At least that's what Shroob Shroob tells me
 

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
23,090
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
I think it was a great idea to bring everyone back. Am quite sure that it's the veterans who got the most ballot votes. I suspect that Snake might even be the official ballot winner, not King K.Rool. The outcry for him was MASSIVE! And so was the outcry for many lost veterans, Wolf being a obvious case of a character that gained lot's of popularity that everyone rallied behind for example. Ice Climbers too (I keep forgetting this because I wanted them gone because of the grab shenanigans). But you should've read the many posts saying "I just want Young Link / Pichu / Squirtle / Ivysaur back, but it'll never happen ): ".
 

Legendary Spirit Tamer

You've got the power!
Moderator
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
23,994
Location
Disco Room Party
3DS FC
1203-9265-8784
NNID
Irene4
Switch FC
SW-7567-8572-3791
Of course they did it willingly. But once they committed to that choice they had limited options as to how to present it and what they could add/change during development.
Their options wasn't "big" to begin with. It was them or almost nothing else. People are vastly overestimating those potential characters as options. They might not have been even considered or were unfeasible as is.

We've been over this; veterans still took a significant amount of time and that shows in the low number of unique newcomers. And the alternate possibilities I've presented only accounted for 2-3 extra characters in exchange for a handful of veterans and just that made things seem a lot better to me.[/quote]
So less that was barely doable? It wouldn't have done much and it's hard to even find potential characters. They had more popular characters that were already feasible as is. It made more sense in that case.

Not 100% sure on Wolf, but I think him being cut was mostly due to Star Fox having a fairly rough time in recent years. It's probably a series that's past its prime, and Sakurai may have thought that 2 reps was enough for it. And really, I like Star Fox and Wolf was a fun character in Brawl but I also thought 2 reps was fine for that series at the time. If Wolf was to return in Ultimate, it should be primarily because of the ballot, as he doesn't really have much else going for him besides being slightly easier than a full unique.
I more meant why he wasn't DLC. Series was in decline, and Wolf took longer to make and wasn't as popular as Falco. Was an easy cut in that case. Lucas didn't fare better. He was just a more popular Brawl vet of the two.

Other than restrictions on time/dev resources and third party licensing, there really aren't many valid reasons why a character wouldn't be feasible these days. Besides, if Sakurai thought that nobody else other than the newcomers we got and the veterans were feasible, then that was probably an incorrect evaluation on his part. Surely at least a few popular and/or notable characters would be workable.
Hardly much at all. Unless it's 3rd party, There's very few that have any remote ideas on how they can work right, or were blatantly unfeasible to finish with a hard deadline. Dixie is an example of this. Isaac likely wasn't feasible either. I could go on. He had to search hard for characters he could find something unique about. He also can't just instantly get any 3rd party either.

I'd say it's worth it if they're big-time inclusions like Isaac, Waluigi, or Banjo. The roster would still be over 60 characters.
This is what I meant by unfeasible. Banjo is a dead series that Microsoft is unlikely to promote. Isaac and Waluigi are both under Camelot, and you might notice how neither are in despite the extreme want for them. Camelot still has to okay with how it works. Notice how Waluigi isn't in any major game besides spin-offs(which are major, mind you). Camelot and Nintendo tend to not work together well with their characters. The ones that were made by Camelot have noticeably been less in mainstream games. For Isaac, he's from a dormant series. Being playable requires Camelot to make sure the character works right. If Sakurai even considered him, Camelot still has to say yes. All the other content is nothing remotely close to the work it makes to being a playable character. It's not some easy thing. He might never become playable if Camelot isn't willing to play ball too. And Nintendo as well.

I never said she should or could be an Echo. I think she could work as a semiclone if they wanted. And again, I don't see why she'd have to be part of a tag team. Sakurai may have envisioned her that way, but sometimes ideas change and adapt. Ultimate is a new game. It doesn't have to be a recycled version of past games with a few bonuses thrown in. Let it be its own game. Not that you can't revisit ideas of the past, but if those ideas don't fit with the current vision then they don't have to be forced into the plans.
Ultimate isn't a recycled version in any way. Having all veterans back is 100% fanservice. He cut tons of mini-games and trophies to speed up the work needed due to the extreme deadline. There's really no point in adding Dixie just to have another face on the roster. That's what Echoes are for. I agree with his envisioning of her. Dixie has never been a legitimate solo act. It's far more reasonable to make her as accurate as possible and give her a partner, to capture the gameplay people actually know of her. If you want a similar character as a solo act, you get Tiny Kong. She's what Dixie is when not with a partner. Diddy and DK both at least can stand out solely on their own. Dixie might split off like Zelda/Sheik did, but then again, they split off due to 3DS limitations and for balance reasons. Dixie(with Cranky, probably) is more likely they didn't have time to capture a fun unique tag team. You have to remember that Sakurai is adding unique characters because he has a unique idea for them, not just cause they exist. He was able to make Isabelle work only(and I mean how the moveset actually flows and works, not just simply putting her in) because Villager existed and because games like Amiibo Festival gave her more personality for entering competitions. She wasn't feasible without that spin-off, really. At least not to be a semi-clone.

Here's a thing about unique newcomers; they aren't just added just because. It's never that simple. Echoes, yes. But for the more unique ones, there's a lot of factors thought about. How relevant they are is a big one. Fanbases matter too. How easy is it to make them feasible. Do they dance in Sakurai's head? Does the companies actually work well with him? Square-Enix more or less left Sakurai alone while he worked on Cloud, which helped a lot. There's quite a few characters that just don't dance in his head, at least not yet. Villager sure didn't at first. Things changed.
 
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
11,038
Location
Washington
Probably DQ3.
Apparently when Japan wants to reference DQ3 without saying Loto by name, they give the catch-all "Hero" title to someone.
At least that's what Shroob Shroob tells me
Pretty much.

Yuusha is synonymous to the Dragon Quest Hero class, and Yuusha is translated to Brave in English.



Pretty much any anime/manga/game that references Dragon Quest 3 will dub the character "Yuusha/Brave".



Doesn't help at all that Verg's foot is still in the race, and Erdrick is on his list, while the "Jack Frost/Slime appears" 5ch leak(Not the full DLC leak one) has yet to be disproven, which backs up Verg's claims of "Erdrick and Luminary being heard together".
 
Last edited:

SPEN18

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
463
Location
MI, USA
Their options wasn't "big" to begin with.
There were plenty of other options besides "Eeveryone is Here." They can put in whichever Nintendo characters they want barring feasibility issues (and even most of those can be resolved if they try hard enough), and they can put in a whole host of third parties these days.

This is what I meant by unfeasible. Banjo is a dead series that Microsoft is unlikely to promote. Isaac and Waluigi are both under Camelot, and you might notice how neither are in despite the extreme want for them. Camelot still has to okay with how it works. Notice how Waluigi isn't in any major game besides spin-offs(which are major, mind you). Camelot and Nintendo tend to not work together well with their characters. The ones that were made by Camelot have noticeably been less in mainstream games. For Isaac, he's from a dormant series. Being playable requires Camelot to make sure the character works right. If Sakurai even considered him, Camelot still has to say yes. All the other content is nothing remotely close to the work it makes to being a playable character. It's not some easy thing. He might never become playable if Camelot isn't willing to play ball too. And Nintendo as well.
First off, it doesn't have to be one of those three. They were just examples. As I've said multiple times, maybe certain popular characters weren't possible, but to say none of them were is almost surely false.

Also, I'm no expert on this kind of stuff but I'm pretty sure Nintendo could use Isaac without Camelot's permission; however, I doubt that Sakurai would do so if Camelot expressed to him that they didn't want Isaac in. But really, there shouldn't be a problem with Camelot. Even if Isaac were in the game, there's nothing obligating them to make a new GS if they really didn't want, but Camelot has pretty much nothing to lose by having a character in Smash, especially when Nintendo owns them and could put them in anyway. Camelot's a small company; Smash would be huge for any company of their size. Finally, Camelot has agreed to both Isaac and Waluigi as Assists multiple times (plus Isaac as a Mii Costume); there's nothing to suggest that they'd oppose having a character in Smash. Saying that Camelot could be the problem is pure speculation based on little to no evidence.

Same goes for feasibility of these two. They've given us no explanation for why they aren't in, and there's nothing suggesting that they could be an issue. Is it possible that they weren't considered doable by Sakurai? Sure, but there's little evidence to suggest that this is the case.

Ultimate isn't a recycled version in any way. Having all veterans back is 100% fanservice. He cut tons of mini-games and trophies to speed up the work needed due to the extreme deadline. There's really no point in adding Dixie just to have another face on the roster.
It's not completely recycled, but a lot of it is. Veterans back is half-and-half on fanservice. Some of them, like Snake and Wolf, were. But with others, it's the same thing that we went over with Castlevania. You can't justify them as "fan characters" when there was a large number of other characters well ahead of them on the ballot by all measures we have available.

With Dixie, I don't actually have super strong feelings for her. I think we started talking about her because I brought her up as an example. You also don't know if the tag team thing is the actual reason that Sakurai hasn't reconsidered her as a solo. It could be that he only thought of her as being important enough if she was with Diddy.


Here's a thing about unique newcomers; they aren't just added just because. It's never that simple.
I mean, vets shouldn't be added "just because" either. Consider them all on their own merits, vet or otherwise.
 

Daedulus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Messages
227
Location
Toronto ON, Canada
3DS FC
2380-8197-1533
NNID
Daedulustg
Switch FC
SW-2767-1140-5910
There were plenty of other options besides "Eeveryone is Here." They can put in whichever Nintendo characters they want barring feasibility issues (and even most of those can be resolved if they try hard enough), and they can put in a whole host of third parties these days. It's not completely recycled, but a lot of it is. Veterans back is half-and-half on fanservice. Some of them, like Snake and Wolf, were. But with others, it's the same thing that we went over with Castlevania. You can't justify them as "fan characters" when there was a large number of other characters well ahead of them on the ballot by all measures we have available.
sf.PNG





Look at these rosters...... I'm not going to exactly respond to the quote above.... Just say some of my own words. When they were smash ultimate, they wanted to outdo themselves. This will probably be Sakurai's final smash, so he wanted to make it count. You can always add characters and then take away some. But for this game, they wanted nothing to be lost. No detail sacrificed for another. They wanted it to be more than just "For Switch", more than just another "Brawl", bigger than just a fighting "Melee". They wanted it to be "Special, Ultimate". In a 2 year time period they were able to put in 74 characters, 1,200 spirits, 900 music tracks, 100 stages, a great classic mode and a pretty good adventure mode, while STILL keep all of the elements that made smash great. This game is both Melee and 4 at the same. No matter who you are, there is something here for you. This game is casual and competitive. When people complain about Geno not being in the game or about there not being enough cut scenes, well I'd like to see you try. You try to make a huge massive game that doesn't disappoint, and make sure your health and family are still together. This game was EXPENSIVE to make, so many licenses, copyright issues, just pouring money in in general. I attached these rosters for a reason, Tekken, Dragon Ball, Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, they wish, they wish they were as big as smash. And then you remember that smash has third parties. And that almost every character is owned by someone else. And then you realize that it also has a huge roster. I do genuinely believe that Ultimate is the best fighter ever. You don't think I have my own list of most wanted's, well I do, but I keep my reality in check and don't start crying when my fighter doesn't get the invitation.

If got an issue with anything I say, well then fight me, I dare ya.
 

Idon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 24, 2018
Messages
7,690
Location
the end of the long road
NNID
Demi-fiend
Switch FC
King of Chaos
View attachment 186069




Look at these rosters...... I'm not going to exactly respond to the quote above.... Just say some of my own words. When they were smash ultimate, they wanted to outdo themselves. This will probably be Sakurai's final smash, so he wanted to make it count. You can always add characters and then take away some. But for this game, they wanted nothing to be lost. No detail sacrificed for another. They wanted it to be more than just "For Switch", more than just another "Brawl", bigger than just a fighting "Melee". They wanted it to be "Special, Ultimate". In a 2 year time period they were able to put in 74 characters, 1,200 spirits, 900 music tracks, 100 stages, a great classic mode and a pretty good adventure mode, while STILL keep all of the elements that made smash great. This game is both Melee and 4 at the same. No matter who you are, there is something here for you. This game is casual and competitive. When people complain about Geno not being in the game or about there not being enough cut scenes, well I'd like to see you try. You try to make a huge massive game that doesn't disappoint, and make sure your health and family are still together. This game was EXPENSIVE to make, so many licenses, copyright issues, just pouring money in in general. I attached these rosters for a reason, Tekken, Dragon Ball, Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, they wish, they wish they were as big as smash. And then you remember that smash has third parties. And that almost every character is owned by someone else. And then you realize that it also has a huge roster. I do genuinely believe that Ultimate is the best fighter ever. You don't think I have my own list of most wanted's, well I do, but I keep my reality in check and don't start crying when my fighter doesn't get the invitation.

If got an issue with anything I say, well then fight me, I dare ya.
Err, the SF, Tekken, and MK rosters are outdated and that DBFZ roster isn't real.
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2018
Messages
624
Location
Indiana
Err, the SF, Tekken, and MK rosters are outdated and that DBFZ roster isn't real.
Not to mention comparisons to more traditional fighters fall a little flat due to the complexity found in them. A better comparison might be something more like the Naruto fighter games which if I recall correctly had a fairly huge roster.
 

Daedulus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Messages
227
Location
Toronto ON, Canada
3DS FC
2380-8197-1533
NNID
Daedulustg
Switch FC
SW-2767-1140-5910
Err, the SF, Tekken, and MK rosters are outdated and that DBFZ roster isn't real.
Not to mention comparisons to more traditional fighters fall a little flat due to the complexity found in them. A better comparison might be something more like the Naruto fighter games which if I recall correctly had a fairly huge roster.
You get what I mean

(I don't know any of the Naruto games, so you tell me)
 

Idon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 24, 2018
Messages
7,690
Location
the end of the long road
NNID
Demi-fiend
Switch FC
King of Chaos
You get what I mean

(I don't know any of the Naruto games, so you tell me)
I really don't.

You're using a lot of false equivalency and strawmanning other fighters to get your point across when you clearly don't play fighters to begin with.

To dissect everything that I think is inaccurate, misleading, or flat-out wrong with your wall of text would be far more effort I'm willing to invest, so I'll just point out the first thing that sticks out.
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2018
Messages
624
Location
Indiana
You get what I mean

(I don't know any of the Naruto games, so you tell me)
It's been a while since I played one but I think in my quick Google search the latest one had over 100? (is that even right?)

And as far as gameplay its a much simpler fighter than more traditional fighters which is why I think the Smash comparison is more accurate.
 

Luigifan18

Smash Champion
Premium
Joined
Feb 19, 2015
Messages
2,543
Switch FC
SW-5577-0969-0868
View attachment 186069




Look at these rosters...... I'm not going to exactly respond to the quote above.... Just say some of my own words. When they were smash ultimate, they wanted to outdo themselves. This will probably be Sakurai's final smash, so he wanted to make it count. You can always add characters and then take away some. But for this game, they wanted nothing to be lost. No detail sacrificed for another. They wanted it to be more than just "For Switch", more than just another "Brawl", bigger than just a fighting "Melee". They wanted it to be "Special, Ultimate". In a 2 year time period they were able to put in 74 characters, 1,200 spirits, 900 music tracks, 100 stages, a great classic mode and a pretty good adventure mode, while STILL keep all of the elements that made smash great. This game is both Melee and 4 at the same. No matter who you are, there is something here for you. This game is casual and competitive. When people complain about Geno not being in the game or about there not being enough cut scenes, well I'd like to see you try. You try to make a huge massive game that doesn't disappoint, and make sure your health and family are still together. This game was EXPENSIVE to make, so many licenses, copyright issues, just pouring money in in general. I attached these rosters for a reason, Tekken, Dragon Ball, Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, they wish, they wish they were as big as smash. And then you remember that smash has third parties. And that almost every character is owned by someone else. And then you realize that it also has a huge roster. I do genuinely believe that Ultimate is the best fighter ever. You don't think I have my own list of most wanted's, well I do, but I keep my reality in check and don't start crying when my fighter doesn't get the invitation.

If got an issue with anything I say, well then fight me, I dare ya.
If they were really going for "no details lost", then where did Home-Run Contest, Target Test/Blast, half of the Multi-Man Smash variants, Stage Builder, and coin battles go?

I digress, it’s impressive that all of the characters and most of the stages got to come back. But this was clearly achieved at the expense of old gameplay modes.
 

Door Key Pig

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 10, 2010
Messages
476
If they were really going for "no details lost", then where did Home-Run Contest, Target Test/Blast, half of the Multi-Man Smash variants, Stage Builder, and coin battles go?

I digress, it’s impressive that all of the characters and most of the stages got to come back. But this was clearly achieved at the expense of old gameplay modes.
And some more cool character crossover cutscenes in WoL would have been cool, tho they may have had to cut that alongside the other compromises for a new story mode(?) Sakurai listed.
 
Last edited:

Pranksta

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 24, 2009
Messages
6
There are 2 major franchises which have new games coming out the year yet currently have no representation in Smash.

I'm predicting Sora and rookie cop Leon S. Kennedy to release alongside their respective games.
 

Megadoomer

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jun 28, 2013
Messages
2,475
Switch FC
SW 0351 1523 9047
There are 2 major franchises which have new games coming out the year yet currently have no representation in Smash.

I'm predicting Sora and rookie cop Leon S. Kennedy to release alongside their respective games.
Doesn't Kingdom Hearts 3 come out at the end of January? I can't see them announcing AND releasing Sora before Piranha Plant comes out. (and that's not even getting into the licensing debacle)
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2018
Messages
624
Location
Indiana
Doesn't Kingdom Hearts 3 come out at the end of January? I can't see them announcing AND releasing Sora before Piranha Plant comes out. (and that's not even getting into the licensing debacle)
Or you know ...the fact that it isn't even coming out on Switch. If they picked Sora it won't have anything to do with promoting KH3 until they decide to bring it to Switch. If Sora is in (big if) it was his own merit or due to ballot support, not because Nintendo is trying to support KH3.
 

SPEN18

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
463
Location
MI, USA
When they were smash ultimate, they wanted to outdo themselves. This will probably be Sakurai's final smash, so he wanted to make it count. You can always add characters and then take away some. But for this game, they wanted nothing to be lost. No detail sacrificed for another. They wanted it to be more than just "For Switch", more than just another "Brawl", bigger than just a fighting "Melee". They wanted it to be "Special, Ultimate". In a 2 year time period they were able to put in 74 characters, 1,200 spirits, 900 music tracks, 100 stages, a great classic mode and a pretty good adventure mode, while STILL keep all of the elements that made smash great. This game is both Melee and 4 at the same. No matter who you are, there is something here for you. This game is casual and competitive.
I mean, it's not like I hate the game or anything like that. I actually really like it; there's just ways that I think it could've been better, that's all. I don't dispute that they have a huge amount of content; however, I do disagree with parts of the approach taken in terms of deciding what gets added. Not that I'm outraged or offended by what they did, though.

When people complain about Geno not being in the game or about there not being enough cut scenes, well I'd like to see you try. You try to make a huge massive game that doesn't disappoint, and make sure your health and family are still together. This game was EXPENSIVE to make, so many licenses, copyright issues, just pouring money in in general. I attached these rosters for a reason, Tekken, Dragon Ball, Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, they wish, they wish they were as big as smash. And then you remember that smash has third parties. And that almost every character is owned by someone else. And then you realize that it also has a huge roster. I do genuinely believe that Ultimate is the best fighter ever. You don't think I have my own list of most wanted's, well I do, but I keep my reality in check and don't start crying when my fighter doesn't get the invitation.
I was not trying to complain about particular characters; anybody I mentioned by name was primarily used as an example. There are roster choices that they made which I disagree with and plenty of characters I'd rather have than some of the ones we got; however, the point is not just to spout complaints. If you think an alternative option would've been better, it might be worth pointing out. It's about evaluating how they did and coming up with ideas about how they could've done better, as Ultimate is a finished game (aside from DLC). I hope that my arguments have been more akin to constructive criticism; I'm trying to offer alternatives.

In no way do I think that I could do a better job than Sakurai.

Also, I do think that Melee and Brawl were better games for their times than Ultimate is for its time, though that's just my opinion.
 

Daedulus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Messages
227
Location
Toronto ON, Canada
3DS FC
2380-8197-1533
NNID
Daedulustg
Switch FC
SW-2767-1140-5910
If they were really going for "no details lost", then where did Home-Run Contest, Target Test/Blast, half of the Multi-Man Smash variants, Stage Builder, and coin battles go?

I digress, it’s impressive that all of the characters and most of the stages got to come back. But this was clearly achieved at the expense of old gameplay modes.
Yea because target blast and home run contest are Crucial to any smash game ;). In the grand scheme of things... It doesn't really matter. If you want to learn to play a character... Then that's why practice mode exists.
 

SPEN18

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
463
Location
MI, USA
Yea because target blast and home run contest are Crucial to any smash game ;). In the grand scheme of things... It doesn't really matter
I really hate to be the one to point this out, but characters like Pichu and Young Link aren't exactly crucial to any Smash game.

It's great if you enjoy the game, but it's not perfect. Although they definitely included a lot, try not to disregard the stuff that they excluded.
 

Daedulus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Messages
227
Location
Toronto ON, Canada
3DS FC
2380-8197-1533
NNID
Daedulustg
Switch FC
SW-2767-1140-5910
I really hate to be the one to point this out, but characters like Pichu and Young Link aren't exactly crucial to any Smash game.

It's great if you enjoy the game, but it's not perfect. Although they definitely included a lot, try not to disregard the stuff that they excluded.
Yea, but if you want to say everyone is here!! Everyone has to be there,

Nothing is perfect of course, but ultimate is pretty darn close.
 
Joined
Feb 13, 2015
Messages
1,727
Location
Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
Yea, but if you want to say everyone is here!! Everyone has to be there,
Well...That is true, but I don't think that was his point. I'm pretty sure that his point was that everyone is here shouldn't have happened because characters like Pichu and Young Link are a waste of dev time due to being heavily based on other characters in the roster and having no series signifigance. And while I agree that from a representational standpoint characters like Roy, Chrom, and Young Link are completely unnecessary, but they do have value from a gameplay standpoint.

And yes, Smash Ultimate definitely would have benefited from more gameplay variety such as Break the Targets and Board the Platforms, but at the end of the day, the core smash mode is the lifeblood of the series. Sakurai knew this and did everything in its power to make sure that it was the best he could possibly make it. Barring the echoes (sometimes), no two characters feel alike, the UI is amazing, the sound design is top notch (except for Toon Link who sounds like he's smacking people with spaghetti), the stages are more varied than they've ever been. It only misses the mark with, like, two or three characters that a lot of people within the smash community want, but that's always going to be the case.

It would be remiss of me to say that "Everyone is Here" is the correct direction moving forward. The next game should narrow it's focus on the roster to allow dev time for other things. But right now, I think things have been handled near perfectly.
 

Daedulus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Messages
227
Location
Toronto ON, Canada
3DS FC
2380-8197-1533
NNID
Daedulustg
Switch FC
SW-2767-1140-5910
It would be remiss of me to say that "Everyone is Here" is the correct direction moving forward. The next game should narrow it's focus on the roster to allow dev time for other things. But right now, I think things have been handled near perfectly.
They have set the bar pretty high, and I'm guessing there won't be a smash game for a long time(I've talking about how this is Sakurai's Final Smash) If you don't believe me well then back when Iwata was talking to Sakurai about creating a new Smash Brothers game on the Wii, he said that if Sakurai wasn't going to work on it, they would just port over Melee. Sakurai keeps the series going.

As for young link and pichu, well they have their fans, I mean you like Duck Hunt. And I get what he trying to say but.... The main selling point was "everyone is here". It's not "every stage is back" or "Every song is here" is it. Characters are the biggest part of smash. They make the game after all.
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
2,651
They have set the bar pretty high, and I'm guessing there won't be a smash game for a long time(I've talking about how this is Sakurai's Final Smash) If you don't believe me well then back when Iwata was talking to Sakurai about creating a new Smash Brothers game on the Wii, he said that if Sakurai wasn't going to work on it, they would just port over Melee. Sakurai keeps the series going.

As for young link and pichu, well they have their fans, I mean you like Duck Hunt. And I get what he trying to say but.... The main selling point was "everyone is here". It's not "every stage is back" or "Every song is here" is it. Characters are the biggest part of smash. They make the game after all.
I don’t like what you’re implying about Duck Hunt.
 
Last edited:

Daedulus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Messages
227
Location
Toronto ON, Canada
3DS FC
2380-8197-1533
NNID
Daedulustg
Switch FC
SW-2767-1140-5910
I don’t like what you’re implying about Duck Hunt.
I'm implying that (personally I don't feel this way) a lot of people really do think Duck Hunt is a waste of a roster space, people say that their are to many obscure Retro reps and that Wii fit was a better WTF character. All I'm saying is that it comes down to personal preference.
 

Pinguino21v

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
91
Location
France
I personally think that some potential newcomers, to make them true to their original appearance, would have taken more time to develop, with original behaviors and mechanics (like villager pocket), or a lot of animations (like Pokémon trainer). By being harder to make, they got put aside.

That could have been the case for Isaac, who could have gotten djinn mechanics and weird spells, Shantae, with a lot of transformations to animate, or Elma, with two different weapons thus two gameplay.

None of the newcomers we got in Ultimate have a unique mechanic or have complex animations. They also got selected for being rather easy to do.
 

Daedulus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Messages
227
Location
Toronto ON, Canada
3DS FC
2380-8197-1533
NNID
Daedulustg
Switch FC
SW-2767-1140-5910
I personally think that some potential newcomers, to make them true to their original appearance, would have taken more time to develop, with original behaviors and mechanics (like villager pocket), or a lot of animations (like Pokémon trainer). By being harder to make, they got put aside.

That could have been the case for Isaac, who could have gotten djinn mechanics and weird spells, Shantae, with a lot of transformations to animate, or Elma, with two different weapons thus two gameplay.

None of the newcomers we got in Ultimate have a unique mechanic or have complex animations. They also got selected for being rather easy to do.
Yea, because you know how much effort it takes to program characters and that WE ALL KNOW that the charcaters with the most frames are by default the characters with the most effort put into them. ;)
 

Pinguino21v

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
91
Location
France
Yea, because you know how much effort it takes to program characters and that WE ALL KNOW that the charcaters with the most frames are by default the characters with the most effort put into them. ;)
That makes the final roster less hurtful by making me think all my wanted characters were that much more original and complex than those who got in at least.
 

SPEN18

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
463
Location
MI, USA
I personally think that some potential newcomers, to make them true to their original appearance, would have taken more time to develop, with original behaviors and mechanics (like villager pocket), or a lot of animations (like Pokémon trainer). By being harder to make, they got put aside.

That could have been the case for Isaac, who could have gotten djinn mechanics and weird spells, Shantae, with a lot of transformations to animate, or Elma, with two different weapons thus two gameplay.

None of the newcomers we got in Ultimate have a unique mechanic or have complex animations. They also got selected for being rather easy to do
Yeah, a lot of uniques would take more time than the vets. But I'm not trying to suggest some sort of one-to-one correspondence between vets and newcomers. I still think the game is better overall if they had cut a handful of vets for a couple of unique newcomers, assuming that those newcomers are big-time inclusions that will make a lot of people excited.

Vets may take less time than newcomers, but the time they take isn't chump change. Even a character like Pichu I could see taking significant dev time in order to balance his self-damage gimmick properly. In Brawl, Wolf supposedly took about 70% of the work that it'd take to make Krystal; so that's less work, but still a sizeable amount of time and resources.

I'll point out that the Inklings did have the ink mechanic that probably took a fair amount of time to implement properly, but for the most part I'd agree that the newcomers were kept generally simple. To be honest, though, very few characters would actually require a super-complicated moveset to do them justice. If you take Isaac for example, he's completely doable without any complex Djinn mechanics; Djinn could just make some appearances in taunts, his FS, and maybe one or two moves. Personally I imagine Isaac gimmick-free, though I'd be just fine with other stuff added into it. And again, maybe some big-time fan requests were considered unfeasible, but I have a hard time being convinced that none of them were.
 
Last edited:

GoodGrief741

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
2,651
I'm implying that (personally I don't feel this way) a lot of people really do think Duck Hunt is a waste of a roster space, people say that their are to many obscure Retro reps and that Wii fit was a better WTF character. All I'm saying is that it comes down to personal preference.
You’re going to need proof of that bucko because from what I’ve seen the reception to Duck Hunt was overall positive.

And while we do not know what hypothetical Sm4sh cut vets would have the most demand for return (although I guarantee there wouldn’t be an outcry if Corrin or Greninja got cut), we do know what cut Melee and Brawl vets got overwhelming support to return and which ones didn’t.

Plus I don’t think a clone (Young Link) from an established and represented franchise is a good comparison to a unique (Duck Hunt) from a one-Rep franchise. Cut Duck Hunt and you cut a stage, a unique moveset and a ton of songs. Cut Young Link and you just cut Young Link.
 

Pinguino21v

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
91
Location
France
I'll point out that the Inklings did have the ink mechanic that probably took a fair amount of time to implement properly,
I actually forgot them, my bad. However, we can certainly all agree that Inklings were the only locked newcomer from the start (from before Smash announcement), thus working on them were mandatory.

although I guarantee there wouldn’t be an outcry if Corrin got cut
Don't you dare touch to Corrin!

TBH, I'm not fond of the character, but I like his/her gameplay.
 

Idon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 24, 2018
Messages
7,690
Location
the end of the long road
NNID
Demi-fiend
Switch FC
King of Chaos
I like Corrin’s gameplay, but she’s gotta go. Give the moveset to someone else if need be, but it’s not like FE can’t spawn other unique characters that people actually like.
Honestly, Corrin (and by extension Roy) feel like an inverse of the MvCI "functions" debacle where most people like their "function" but don't... especially care about the actual character.
 

Daedulus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Messages
227
Location
Toronto ON, Canada
3DS FC
2380-8197-1533
NNID
Daedulustg
Switch FC
SW-2767-1140-5910
Honestly, Corrin (and by extension Roy) feel like an inverse of the MvCI "functions" debacle where most people like their "function" but don't... especially care about the actual character.
Everybody has their personal opinion on the matter, you can't add a character without people starting to get mad. Corrin has his/her fans, same with duck hunt, young link and even pichu.

If you want proof about people not liking duck hunt, just look at this arguement here:https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76609207
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2018
Messages
624
Location
Indiana
I like Corrin’s gameplay, but she’s gotta go. Give the moveset to someone else if need be, but it’s not like FE can’t spawn other unique characters that people actually like.
I know Corrin gets a lot of hate due to their circumstances but in a vacuum personally I think,

-they have a great design, their armor is great and when they transform into a dragon it still feels very dragon while not being a carbon copy of the standard dragon.
-they have a fun moveset, the partial transformations and and overall "spear-like" nature of their attacks make them play unlike any of the other fighters.
-they offer a unique moveset from a series were the main characters all tend to be very similar, i.e. Marth, Roy, Chrom, Lucina all playing very similar and if you look at the other main lords (Alm, Seliph, Sigurd, Eliwood) they would offer much of the same. Obviously there are others who could do this too but that doesn't mean Corrin can't do this.

I think if Corrin got in any other way, at any other time, they could have been as popular as Roy if not more so.
 
Last edited:

Daedulus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Messages
227
Location
Toronto ON, Canada
3DS FC
2380-8197-1533
NNID
Daedulustg
Switch FC
SW-2767-1140-5910
I know Corrin gets a lot of hate due to their circumstances but in a vacuum personally I think,

-they have a great design, their armor is great and when they transform into a dragon it still feels very dragon while not being a carbon copy of the standard dragon.
-they have a fun moveset, the partial transformations and and overall "spear-like" nature of their attacks make them play unlike any of the other fighters.
-they offer a unique moveset from a series were the main characters all tend to be very similar, i.e. Marth, Roy, Chrom, Lucina all playing very similar and if you look at the other main lords (Alm, Seliph, Sigurd, Eliwood) they would offer much of the same. Obviously there are others who could do this too but that doesn't mean Corrin can't do this.

I think if Corrin got in any other way, at any other time, and they could have been as popular as Roy if not more so.
The smash community has a lot of salty dogs
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
2,651
Honestly, Corrin (and by extension Roy) feel like an inverse of the MvCI "functions" debacle where most people like their "function" but don't... especially care about the actual character.
Roy did come back due to popular demand so I’m not sure if I would include him there.
 
Top