Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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Oops, my wording was bad. I meant to say that some people were saying that Dark Samus couldn't be an Echo because she has a lot of abilities that are different from Samus'. But yeah, if she wasn't an Echo she wouldn't be in, and that's part of the argument. It's much easier for them to listen to fans on clones, and the Echo choices somewhat increase the validity of fan polls, since they line up with the Echo choices on those polls. But listening on clones isn't the same as listening on uniques.
Keep in mind just getting the character in is still a plus. Sakurai is obviously aware some wanted many far more unique. It just wasn't feasible, of course. Makes me wonder if part of why Isaac isn't in is he couldn't be an Echo.

But the argument is that most of those were either easy clones or characters that happened to line up with what they would've done anyway. The waters are pretty muddy on everyone but K. Rool. Of course, characters are gonna have multiple reasons for getting in, but if a character isn't at or near the top of the ballot then it's hard to justify that choice based on votes. Yes, other factors may have made it a more attractive choice to Sakurai but if the other factors overrode the raw results of the ballot, then the ballot isn't the real reason that they're in the game.
Eh, not really. Richter and Simon still required a huge amount of attention from the ballot for him to outright consider it. He can't easily pick people when he has so little space. I honestly doubt they'd be in without the ballot's help. The fact he cited it pretty much tells us that it was very important as is. That said, let's just agree to disagree on that point.

Chrom maybe, but Dark Samus had little going for her otherwise. Ridley was already in. If it weren't for actual requests, there'd be no point. Chrom was intended in 4, so he has enough of a reason to be put in. Ken also has the point of "he's pretty much the original echo", so no ballot needed. Obviously Isabelle being the new mascot and highly popular made her an ideal choice. Just not for an Echo. She's big enough to easily get in on her own merits. King K. Rool needed fan help. Dark Samus probably did too. Chrom is a maybe on that. Daisy is probably ballot-related too, as she's highly popular. But we have no evidence to prove that, just a fair guess.

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Our disagreements on Pichu and Isaac mainly seem to stem from our differences in how much we trust the polls. If you give the polls any time of day, it's pretty universal that Isaac did really well worldwide and Pichu did mediocre at best.
Which wasn't my main point, though. The point was one was feasible and a veteran, and the call for tons of veteran votes made the full list of veterans higher priority than a single requested character from an inactive series. Pichu is still from an active series as is. All the veterans have a lot going for them as is. Tons of popularity, it being important to Sakurai to treat them right(which is why he refuses to extremely overhaul any such character. They will change, of course, but not to the point the moveset still isn't fairly similar).

I don't really trust those polls much because there's too many key variables as I outlined before. We don't know how they took the results. For instance, did they discount any IP that voted for the same character twice? Was the total number of votes fully ignoring impossible characters, or were they counted as "votes that exist, but don't count overall". What I mean for this is if Goku is voted for, they can either tally the total votes and remove all votes for him, or count them as empty votes in the overall ratio/total of full votes. We don't know enough to get a good grasp of the system. We absolutely know that the exact number of votes has little bearing compared to having a ton of votes on its own.

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On clones, it absolutely does take a considerable amount of effort to make a clone, just less than a full PC. I don't know where the source for this is, but IIRC they said in the Brawl era that Wolf took about 70% of the effort that it would've taken to make Krystal. That is less work, but it's far from nothing. Granted, Wolf is closer to a full unique than Young Link or Pichu. But the point is that even semiclones still take up significant dev time. IMO it's hard to justify Pichu and Young Link when Pokemon already make up more than a tenth of the roster and we already have two other Links. And Dr. Mario was the product of a weird situation in Melee when they needed a bunch of clones to pad the roster and make up for a short dev cycle. There's a reason that a lot of them were dropped in Brawl; they're just not that important to the overall roster makeup and only got picked in the first place because of a unique situation. IMO a nice compromise for Dr. Mario would be a Mario alt costume. And really, if dumping YL, Pichu, and Doc only got us a mostly unique Dixie, I'd take it no questions asked.
Yep, I knew about the Wolf one. If you look at SourceGaming, both actual quotes seem contradictory. It's hard to tell. One suggests he took 70% less time to make, while the other suggestions he needed 70% more work done. It's weird.

That said, I will never cut a character to justify adding in another, veteran or otherwise. The costume thing just doesn't work. It's not like with Pikmin. Dr. Mario is too different from Mario to even work that way. Besides the fact they have to have unique animations for their B moves, they also have different effects, which is something that cannot be done with alts. They have to be identical in every way. It's just aesthetics. But that's not what Megavitamins is. It's supposed to be a different move. Dr. Mario could almost work as an Echo, though, if Mario had the Mario Tornado. Otherwise, an alternate moveset in the same slot(which is kind of what Echoes are, when you stack them) works too. But they have to be different as they never once played the same to begin with. They were always different in some way. He never made sense as a costume due to being an alternate moveset(as that's not how alt costumes work).
 

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Which wasn't my main point, though. The point was one was feasible and a veteran, and the call for tons of veteran votes made the full list of veterans higher priority than a single requested character from an inactive series. Pichu is still from an active series as is. All the veterans have a lot going for them as is. Tons of popularity, it being important to Sakurai to treat them right(which is why he refuses to extremely overhaul any such character. They will change, of course, but not to the point the moveset still isn't fairly similar).
Pichu may be from an active series, but it's an active series that already has a ton of reps who represent it well. It may not be completely ideal, but we do have Pokémon of various types and gens; some are starters and some are not, some are NFE and some are fully evolved, Mewtwo is legendary, etc. Pokémon's cast in Smash is very diverse and hardly needs a throw-in clone. Pretty much the only thing that Pichu adds is representation for Gen II, but IMO Gen II wasn't so important that it needs its own rep, especially when it kinda gets lumped with Gen I a lot of the time in terms of which mons appear in the game. Not every Gen needs a rep, just like we don't need reps from every single FE game and every single Zelda game. You and I disagree about the popularity of vets. Based on the data we have available, flawed as it is, I don't see a way that you can say that every single vet was highly requested. Some were, and others were not. If Sakurai saw three or so vets near the top and thought that meant people wanted every vet back, then that's a misinterpretation on his part, as we've gone over before.

I don't really trust those polls much because there's too many key variables as I outlined before. We don't know how they took the results. For instance, did they discount any IP that voted for the same character twice? Was the total number of votes fully ignoring impossible characters, or were they counted as "votes that exist, but don't count overall". What I mean for this is if Goku is voted for, they can either tally the total votes and remove all votes for him, or count them as empty votes in the overall ratio/total of full votes. We don't know enough to get a good grasp of the system. We absolutely know that the exact number of votes has little bearing compared to having a ton of votes on its own.
I mean, I probably can't convince you on the polls. But I think that the non-playable content in the game and some of the playable content is the biggest indicator that they were at least fairly accurate. Maybe if character X was at spot 20 and character Y was at spot 24, it's possible that character Y was higher on the real ballot. And there can be a couple of anomalies, but I'd like more than vague statements like "oh this character did well" to really think that something was a discrepency with the data we have.

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That said, I will never cut a character to justify adding in another, veteran or otherwise. The costume thing just doesn't work. It's not like with Pikmin. Dr. Mario is too different from Mario to even work that way. Besides the fact they have to have unique animations for their B moves, they also have different effects, which is something that cannot be done with alts. They have to be identical in every way. It's just aesthetics. But that's not what Megavitamins is. It's supposed to be a different move. Dr. Mario could almost work as an Echo, though, if Mario had the Mario Tornado. Otherwise, an alternate moveset in the same slot(which is kind of what Echoes are, when you stack them) works too. But they have to be different as they never once played the same to begin with. They were always different in some way. He never made sense as a costume due to being an alternate moveset(as that's not how alt costumes work).
Well, you can have your opinion on when you'd personally make a cut. But personally I have no problem cutting stuff if it makes the game better overall.

When I say Dr. Mario could be an alt costume, I really mean a standard alt costume just like Mario's wedding or builder costumes. Not even a name-change; it would literally just be Mario with his doctor clothes and would just be called "Mario." Personally I feel that's enough; IMO he's not important enough on his own to take up a full character slot, but it would be really easy for them to give him a nod/reference. And that's the point of many of the standard alt costumes, to make a nice reference to another character. Just like Lucas has a costume that looks like Claus and Ness has one referencing Master Belch; they're not meant to fully represent the character's abilities but just throw some fans a bone. Kinda like Mii Costumes in a way but to a lesser extent. These are characters that were mainly added to pad past rosters; their own merits are limited.
 

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Pichu may be from an active series, but it's an active series that already has a ton of reps who represent it well. It may not be completely ideal, but we do have Pokémon of various types and gens; some are starters and some are not, some are NFE and some are fully evolved, Mewtwo is legendary, etc. Pokémon's cast in Smash is very diverse and hardly needs a throw-in clone. Pretty much the only thing that Pichu adds is representation for Gen II, but IMO Gen II wasn't so important that it needs its own rep, especially when it kinda gets lumped with Gen I a lot of the time in terms of which mons appear in the game. Not every Gen needs a rep, just like we don't need reps from every single FE game and every single Zelda game. You and I disagree about the popularity of vets. Based on the data we have available, flawed as it is, I don't see a way that you can say that every single vet was highly requested. Some were, and others were not. If Sakurai saw three or so vets near the top and thought that meant people wanted every vet back, then that's a misinterpretation on his part, as we've gone over before.
No, he has votes for all different characters. Again, he doesn't need to see them all near the top. As long as each one has a sizable amount, which doesn't matter in particular where it is in place, it still says something. Pichu scoring high as is(which is pretty believable for such a well known and popular character) but many scoring way higher doesn't change he scored high. That's the point. The data still says a lot.

I mean, I probably can't convince you on the polls. But I think that the non-playable content in the game and some of the playable content is the biggest indicator that they were at least fairly accurate. Maybe if character X was at spot 20 and character Y was at spot 24, it's possible that character Y was higher on the real ballot. And there can be a couple of anomalies, but I'd like more than vague statements like "oh this character did well" to really think that something was a discrepency with the data we have.
It's because we don't know how the ballot's votes were tallied in any way to get anything remotely close to the actual correct data. It's way too variable with too many valid ways to do it, which skews the votes. The only thing that more or less was shown at best was many characters had tons of votes, including veterans.

Well, you can have your opinion on when you'd personally make a cut. But personally I have no problem cutting stuff if it makes the game better overall.
That wouldn't make the game better overall. Having every playable character still in pleases more fans than it would get people annoyed in comparison. It does make sense that later games will cut the least necessary for more new stuff. That's not what I was referring to, though. Once you have a reasonable goal, you keep it. We won't have another similar game ever again. Too many characters.

When I say Dr. Mario could be an alt costume, I really mean a standard alt costume just like Mario's wedding or builder costumes. Not even a name-change; it would literally just be Mario with his doctor clothes and would just be called "Mario." Personally I feel that's enough; IMO he's not important enough on his own to take up a full character slot, but it would be really easy for them to give him a nod/reference. And that's the point of many of the standard alt costumes, to make a nice reference to another character. Just like Lucas has a costume that looks like Claus and Ness has one referencing Master Belch; they're not meant to fully represent the character's abilities but just throw some fans a bone. Kinda like Mii Costumes in a way but to a lesser extent. These are characters that were mainly added to pad past rosters; their own merits are limited.
That sounds like a completely worthless costume to bother with then. An alt kind of like the doc might be fine, like his colors and maybe the mirror on the head, but it doesn't remotely do anything to properly capture the actual character or series. Which is why him being a clone is significantly more faithful. At that point, why waste the effort on a bad costume when there's more costumes that don't show extreme inaccuracies. You just don't have Dr. Mario, as is, without the Megavitamins. They're literally who the character is. It doesn't matter if he's an Alt either, he has to have 'em. Even if it was just an aesthetic effect(sound included), it's absolutely necessary to convey the character faithfully.

...That's literally like having Link without a sword, to be frank. That's how integral it is. And Dr. Mario is not just Mario in a labcoat anyway. It's Mario in a labcoat using Megavitamins, his signature ability. Like, despite many characters lacking some stuff, they all still keep their most signature things overall. Ganondorf is the best example of this; his signature stuff isn't swords(cause that came by way later on), it's Magic and an overwhelming presence. Both are captured heavily in his moveset. Well, Power too, but that's part of his overwhelming presence factor. It's why he's hyper strong in either form(Ganon or Dorf), deals massive damage as Ganon even with the best of defense upgrades you can get as Link, and still manages to have a major appearance or do something even in his smallest of cameos. Like in ALBW, despite the small part he plays, it still matches very well with the massive strength and power he has(magic too).

That's why alt costumes usually are bad ideas unless they still capture the character overall. It only works as proper alts like Alph or the Koopalings. Because they still do an excellent job at making them feel right. Dr. Mario is impossible to do that way overall, though as I noted, it can be done... if they change his graphical effects to be accurate. But being that Fire and Electricity are separate effects that Mario and Dr. Mario have, which both are extremely accurate to the type of character they are, you can no longer properly combine 'em. It just makes more sense to leave Dr. Mario out than make him as inaccurate as possible for a shortcut costume. Of course, that doesn't matter in non-Smash games. But Smash is very different.
 
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Pichu is quite the oddity. I believe we do have to accept the fact that some veterans did better than others. You'd be kidding yourself to think that say... Young Link tied with Snake in the ballot. That said, Young Link is rather the best veteran to compare Pichu to. A younger version of an existing character on the roster that most people are divided about. As I think we've concluded here, there's no true way to know exactly how well x character did on the ballot. The best we can do is relate them to the amount of fan coverage they get IRL. Pichu... is certainly at a disadvantage here. Sure, some found them cute, but even casual players shied away from him in Melee due to self damage. Shame really, because self damage with most of your moves is actually an interesting niche in Smash Ultimate. Sure, you're becoming easier to launch, but you're also bringing yourself to rage without needing to be hit. Certainly an interesting gimmick that honestly makes pichu slightly viable this time around IMO.

Also, on the Dr. Mario topic, I'm sorry, but I don't think the clone thing really does him justice either. Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of the moves do correlate properly, and it is more fitting to see the tornado instead of FLUDD, but the viruses aren't even a part of his taunt. The viruses are the antagonists of Dr. Mario, and for them to be missing is kinda bizarre, with three iterations of the doc so far. Ideally, I see the viruses fitting best as a Final Smash. Dr. Mario could make them rain from the sky similar to Dedede's Brawl Final Smash, Waddle Dee Army.

Fever would do fire damage to enemies, Chill would do ice damage and freeze at higher percents. Weird... I think it'd be best if it made your inputs reverse when hit, similar to the evil ramblin' mushroom. Though I could also see it doing random things to the player hit by it.
 

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Again, he doesn't need to see them all near the top
Why not? There's no rule saying that he can't add some veterans back but not others. There's no reason to include a character just for the sake of some completionist dream that doesn't make sense to begin with. Some characters are included because of very unique circumstances and really never would have been in otherwise. Once those unique circumstances aren't there anymore, they get cut. Oh well. We'll probably get something better instead.

It's because we don't know how the ballot's votes were tallied in any way to get anything remotely close to the actual correct data. It's way too variable with too many valid ways to do it, which skews the votes. The only thing that more or less was shown at best was many characters had tons of votes, including veterans
I mean, the content of the game lines up with it. Sure, it can be coincidence, but that's pretty unlikely. But again, I probably won't convince you of their validity at this point, so I won't spend too much time on this.

That wouldn't make the game better overall.
Why not? I don't agree with every character choice Sakurai makes. There are some characters that I'd really rather have to the point that I'd cut multiple uniques to get even one of them, including but certainly not limited to Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young Link, Incineroar, and PP. A bit exteme? Perhaps. But getting a dream character after over a decade's worth of wait would, for me, be worth axing quite a bit of stuff. And personal biases aside, why have Pichu and Young Link when you can have Dixie or Shadow? Why waste time on Incineroar when he's gonna be near obsolete by the time the game is even out, with Gen 8 on the horizon, and you can work on somebody that people already know that they want? Why dig fifty spots down the ballot just to recycle some old ideas that were used to patch a few holes in an outdated roster? In the case of the vets, it was the product of a really unique situation, a Sakurai dream, and quite probably the chance for a neat little gimmick to help sell the game.

That sounds like a completely worthless costume to bother with then. An alt kind of like the doc might be fine, like his colors and maybe the mirror on the head, but it doesn't remotely do anything to properly capture the actual character or series. Which is why him being a clone is significantly more faithful. At that point, why waste the effort on a bad costume when there's more costumes that don't show extreme inaccuracies. You just don't have Dr. Mario, as is, without the Megavitamins. They're literally who the character is. It doesn't matter if he's an Alt either, he has to have 'em. Even if it was just an aesthetic effect(sound included), it's absolutely necessary to convey the character faithfully.

...That's literally like having Link without a sword, to be frank. That's how integral it is. And Dr. Mario is not just Mario in a labcoat anyway. It's Mario in a labcoat using Megavitamins, his signature ability. Like, despite many characters lacking some stuff, they all still keep their most signature things overall. Ganondorf is the best example of this; his signature stuff isn't swords(cause that came by way later on), it's Magic and an overwhelming presence. Both are captured heavily in his moveset. Well, Power too, but that's part of his overwhelming presence factor. It's why he's hyper strong in either form(Ganon or Dorf), deals massive damage as Ganon even with the best of defense upgrades you can get as Link, and still manages to have a major appearance or do something even in his smallest of cameos. Like in ALBW, despite the small part he plays, it still matches very well with the massive strength and power he has(magic too).

That's why alt costumes usually are bad ideas unless they still capture the character overall. It only works as proper alts like Alph or the Koopalings. Because they still do an excellent job at making them feel right. Dr. Mario is impossible to do that way overall, though as I noted, it can be done... if they change his graphical effects to be accurate. But being that Fire and Electricity are separate effects that Mario and Dr. Mario have, which both are extremely accurate to the type of character they are, you can no longer properly combine 'em. It just makes more sense to leave Dr. Mario out than make him as inaccurate as possible for a shortcut costume. Of course, that doesn't matter in non-Smash games. But Smash is very different.
I mean, if I can't convince you on an alt costume then I'd also be just as fine with leaving Dr. Mario out all together. A handful of music tracks and Spirits are probably enough for Dr. Mario in my opinion.
 
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Why not? There's no rule saying that he can't add some veterans back but not others. There's no reason to include a character just for the sake of some completionist dream that doesn't make sense to begin with. Some characters are included because of very unique circumstances and really never would have been in otherwise. Once those unique circumstances aren't there anymore, they get cut. Oh well. We'll probably get something better instead.
Of course there's a reason. Every veteran has tons of fans. He wanted the game to be fanservice based and went that route. Pleasing every previous fan is the only way to get most back.

I mean, the content of the game lines up with it. Sure, it can be coincidence, but that's pretty unlikely. But again, I probably won't convince you of their validity at this point, so I won't spend too much time on this.
Until we know how the ballot properly was counted, no fan poll can give us an accurate enough reading. Yet. They're not useless in itself, they just aren't able to be properly compared to the ballot due to a lack of information.

Why not? I don't agree with every character choice Sakurai makes. There are some characters that I'd really rather have to the point that I'd cut multiple uniques to get even one of them, including but certainly not limited to Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young Link, Incineroar, and PP. A bit exteme? Perhaps. But getting a dream character after over a decade's worth of wait would, for me, be worth axing quite a bit of stuff. And personal biases aside, why have Pichu and Young Link when you can have Dixie or Shadow? Why waste time on Incineroar when he's gonna be near obsolete by the time the game is even out, with Gen 8 on the horizon, and you can work on somebody that people already know that they want? Why dig fifty spots down the ballot just to recycle some old ideas that were used to patch a few holes in an outdated roster? In the case of the vets, it was the product of a really unique situation, a Sakurai dream, and quite probably the chance for a neat little gimmick to help sell the game.
Which doesn't work for Ultimate anyway. He made the right choice when he wanted the ultimate crossover, to have as much as possible. This'll make it the best selling game and the only game that can get every player of previous games to play it. It won't 100% work, but you can't please everyone.

Shadow would be nice, but he's an obvious Echo. If he didn't get in now, then he probably never had a chance due to negotiations not working out or Sakurai never considered it. Dixie honestly needs to be a Tag Team to really stand out at this point. With Cranky is best. If they can make it work, sure. But I'd keep the full roster first and not go for extremely hard to implement ideas just because. I'd first add Isaac over either anyway.

Incineroar is pretty clearly coming back in a later game. The only ones to really worry about at best are Mewtwo, Pichu, Squirtle, and Ivysaur. The rest are pretty much obvious keepers. Part of that is Gamefreak's fault.

I mean, if I can't convince you on an alt costume then I'd also be just as fine with leaving Dr. Mario out all together. A handful of music tracks and Spirits are probably enough for Dr. Mario in my opinion.
I'd rather have them cut as a playable character than reduced to an extremely incorrect costume. It might not have mattered if he was a costume with aesthetics and Mario kept his Spin. But the fact is, that's not how it works. He plays more than uniquely enough and is a pretty different style. I can't see any reason why a unique should be cut bar technical issues or 3rd party issues with a regular sequel. If you're downsizing, then it's far different(for instance, the default option for every series needs to be the first in the series. You also should include the original 12 because they're pretty important. That gives you a very nice groundwork. The last thing you need to do for the groundwork is decide if 3rd parties are in or not. Once you do that, then you have the easy Echoes. Those should all stay since there's no reason to cut 'em.
 

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Every veteran has tons of fans. He wanted the game to be fanservice based and went that route. Pleasing every previous fan is the only way to get most back.
"Every veteran has fans" does not mean that other characters don't have just as many or even more. If someone like Isaac is already popular without being in Smash, imagine how much he'd explode if he was. There are ways to please previous fans without including every single character. As I've said, most people would've been fine with just a few coming back, like maybe ICs, Wolf, or Snake.

Which doesn't work for Ultimate anyway. He made the right choice when he wanted the ultimate crossover, to have as much as possible. This'll make it the best selling game and the only game that can get every player of previous games to play it. It won't 100% work, but you can't please everyone.

Shadow would be nice, but he's an obvious Echo. If he didn't get in now, then he probably never had a chance due to negotiations not working out or Sakurai never considered it. Dixie honestly needs to be a Tag Team to really stand out at this point. With Cranky is best. If they can make it work, sure. But I'd keep the full roster first and not go for extremely hard to implement ideas just because. I'd first add Isaac over either anyway.
I am of the opinion that he didn't make the right choice with "Everyone is Here." He could've pleased more people by considering each veteran based on its own individual merits, rather than rolling them into what is essentially a large-scale gimmick and one of his own personal dreams.

I mentioned Shadow and Dixie because I think they both could be made in less time than a fully unique character. I'd totally add Isaac over both as well, though. Really, you can replace Shadow and Dixie with whoever fits your fancy and the argument is the same.

Idk if Dixie needs to be part of a Tag Team. Part of this is personal bias as I tend not to like that kind of stuff, but there's no reason that you can't accurately represent Dixie on her own. If Sakurai originally envisioned her as part of a Tag Team, then he needs to get over it real quick because holding her back over that is as ridiculous as "Ridley is too big" or "Villager isn't a fighter." Many characters have more than one workable, accurate moveset that could be used.

Incineroar is pretty clearly coming back in a later game
Not saying that he will be cut. But I would like it if he was, admittedly.

I can't see any reason why a unique should be cut bar technical issues or 3rd party issues with a regular sequel
To make room for something new and better? Again, development resources are finite and anything that you add, be it new or returning, makes everything else less feasible.

I know you're not gonna agree with this, but "Everyone is Here" crippled Ultimate's roster; they had this "all returning vets" gimmick that they built around and it prevented them from truly delivering on what people wanted.
 

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"Every veteran has fans" does not mean that other characters don't have just as many or even more. If someone like Isaac is already popular without being in Smash, imagine how much he'd explode if he was. There are ways to please previous fans without including every single character. As I've said, most people would've been fine with just a few coming back, like maybe ICs, Wolf, or Snake.
No, most people would prefer their mains aren't cut. It's why veterans coming back is met mostly with praise by a minority of those who dislike some characters.

I am of the opinion that he didn't make the right choice with "Everyone is Here." He could've pleased more people by considering each veteran based on its own individual merits, rather than rolling them into what is essentially a large-scale gimmick and one of his own personal dreams.
No he couldn't have. Because if that means leaving a few veterans out, that means a lot of players who love those characters get burned. He got the most popular version because of everyone is here. He made the logical choice to get the most customers, and it worked. It's an extremely well-selling game and that's despite having the last amount of modes and no trophies. The best way to get the most customers in Smash is to please those who love the characters first and foremost. The more characters there are, the more customers there are. It's a character-driven series, not "unique character". It has nothing to do with just the specific character alone. Having everybody is what makes it such a strong game right now.

I mentioned Shadow and Dixie because I think they both could be made in less time than a fully unique character. I'd totally add Isaac over both as well, though. Really, you can replace Shadow and Dixie with whoever fits your fancy and the argument is the same.
If Dixie isn't already in as an Echo in base game, that means he isn't going to do it as is. He wanted her as a tag team, which is faithful to her first appearance. She wasn't a loner character nor designed to ever be that way. She wasn't a solo act in the games, which Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong could actually do. This is most likely why he refuses to make her "solo" just cause. Shadow only matters as much as Sega allows, really.

Idk if Dixie needs to be part of a Tag Team. Part of this is personal bias as I tend not to like that kind of stuff, but there's no reason that you can't accurately represent Dixie on her own. If Sakurai originally envisioned her as part of a Tag Team, then he needs to get over it real quick because holding her back over that is as ridiculous as "Ridley is too big" or "Villager isn't a fighter." Many characters have more than one workable, accurate moveset that could be used.
It's not just envisioned. He worked on her during Brawl as a partner with Diddy. It couldn't work, but Diddy is a solo act many times, so he could be split. Dixie was never a solo act. She's not really accurate alone.

Not saying that he will be cut. But I would like it if he was, admittedly.
He probably will be next game, if they're removing clones, anyway.

To make room for something new and better? Again, development resources are finite and anything that you add, be it new or returning, makes everything else less feasible.
They weren't feasible anyway. A lot of those characters didn't get in not because the vets were in, but because many of them wouldn't have worked out anyway. Dixie? Tag team or bust. He might've not been able to make it work and would still scrap her. Shadow? If he did consider her, then Sega knocked it down. Isaac? Game series is dormant and he takes from active series as is unless they're actual retros(which he isn't). Skull Kid? Tingle? Impa? Won't much matter depending upon his view of Zelda, and so far it appears only the Triforce Trio matters to him. Sheik is literally the oddest one out, and she got in because it was her and Zelda or nothing at that time. They were part of the same mechanic.

I know you're not gonna agree with this, but "Everyone is Here" crippled Ultimate's roster; they had this "all returning vets" gimmick that they built around and it prevented them from truly delivering on what people wanted.
He had barely any time. It would've been even smaller an a lot of characters still wouldn't work because the gimmicks were unfeasible or 3rd party companies still would've said no. Wouldn't have helped at all.

Just saying, if he was going for that then the best choice was to actually take the ballot as the sole measuring stick for newcomers.
No, the best choice was to please the most fans. Which he did by adding back everyone's main. And adding Ridley, Dark Samus, Chrom, King K. Rool, both Belmonts, and Isabelle. All are blatant fanservice characters. Ken and Incineroar are kind of it for ones that weren't about pleasing fans. Inklings were the "no duh" choice.
 

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No, most people would prefer their mains aren't cut. It's why veterans coming back is met mostly with praise by a minority of those who dislike some characters.


No he couldn't have. Because if that means leaving a few veterans out, that means a lot of players who love those characters get burned. He got the most popular version because of everyone is here. He made the logical choice to get the most customers, and it worked. It's an extremely well-selling game and that's despite having the last amount of modes and no trophies. The best way to get the most customers in Smash is to please those who love the characters first and foremost. The more characters there are, the more customers there are. It's a character-driven series, not "unique character". It has nothing to do with just the specific character alone. Having everybody is what makes it such a strong game right now.


If Dixie isn't already in as an Echo in base game, that means he isn't going to do it as is. He wanted her as a tag team, which is faithful to her first appearance. She wasn't a loner character nor designed to ever be that way. She wasn't a solo act in the games, which Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong could actually do. This is most likely why he refuses to make her "solo" just cause. Shadow only matters as much as Sega allows, really.


It's not just envisioned. He worked on her during Brawl as a partner with Diddy. It couldn't work, but Diddy is a solo act many times, so he could be split. Dixie was never a solo act. She's not really accurate alone.


He probably will be next game, if they're removing clones, anyway.


They weren't feasible anyway. A lot of those characters didn't get in not because the vets were in, but because many of them wouldn't have worked out anyway. Dixie? Tag team or bust. He might've not been able to make it work and would still scrap her. Shadow? If he did consider her, then Sega knocked it down. Isaac? Game series is dormant and he takes from active series as is unless they're actual retros(which he isn't). Skull Kid? Tingle? Impa? Won't much matter depending upon his view of Zelda, and so far it appears only the Triforce Trio matters to him. Sheik is literally the oddest one out, and she got in because it was her and Zelda or nothing at that time. They were part of the same mechanic.


He had barely any time. It would've been even smaller an a lot of characters still wouldn't work because the gimmicks were unfeasible or 3rd party companies still would've said no. Wouldn't have helped at all.


No, the best choice was to please the most fans. Which he did by adding back everyone's main. And adding Ridley, Dark Samus, Chrom, King K. Rool, both Belmonts, and Isabelle. All are blatant fanservice characters. Ken and Incineroar are kind of it for ones that weren't about pleasing fans. Inklings were the "no duh" choice.
You say blatant but it’s pretty much up for discussion.

I, for one, think that Isabelle is a fanservice rep (or, well, kind of). But a lot of people seem to disagree, judging by reactions to her reveal. And that’s just one example.

By the way, and this is just speculation, but I think a 75 character roster that got some cuts but more fanservice newcomers would have been way better received.
 

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You say blatant but it’s pretty much up for discussion.

I, for one, think that Isabelle is a fanservice rep (or, well, kind of). But a lot of people seem to disagree, judging by reactions to her reveal. And that’s just one example.

By the way, and this is just speculation, but I think a 75 character roster that got some cuts but more fanservice newcomers would have been way better received.
Of course she's a fanservice rep. She's one of the most popular new mascots and received super well(in other games). She still is overall received great, but there's some hate towards her(mostly for what I said down below). Of course, every character has haters, so eh.

The issue is some people don't think she fits well in a fighting game nor wants to hurt her. Others thought she'd be an Echo, not fully understanding how they worked. Her being unique while characters they want being nothing more than Spirits or Echoes hurt. Dark Samus is an example of that.
 

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Of course she's a fanservice rep. She's one of the most popular new mascots and received super well(in other games). She still is overall received great, but there's some hate towards her(mostly for what I said down below). Of course, every character has haters, so eh.

The issue is some people don't think she fits well in a fighting game nor wants to hurt her. Others thought she'd be an Echo, not fully understanding how they worked. Her being unique while characters they want being nothing more than Spirits or Echoes hurt. Dark Samus is an example of that.
Her trailer also played a big part in her mixed reception. I love it, but from what I heard people just though it was boring and overdrawn. Different strokes, I guess.

Generally speaking, from what I’ve seen, people seem to name the September Direct as when the hype train derailed, so who knows what the final word is.
 

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Her trailer also played a big part in her mixed reception. I love it, but from what I heard people just though it was boring and overdrawn. Different strokes, I guess.

Generally speaking, from what I’ve seen, people seem to name the September Direct as when the hype train derailed, so who knows what the final word is.
Oh, I agree her trailer could've been better. It fit the AC atmosphere, but also was really not what'd you expect for a trailer for a fighting game. It being mixed makes sense. As a fan of AC, I actually think it fit very well, but I also enjoy the action-packed ones more.

I forgot about the trailer bit, actually. Though it would help if she wasn't the cause of most Glitches in Ultimate(I don't think she's the only cause of them, though?)
 

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No he couldn't have. Because if that means leaving a few veterans out, that means a lot of players who love those characters get burned. He got the most popular version because of everyone is here. He made the logical choice to get the most customers, and it worked. It's an extremely well-selling game and that's despite having the last amount of modes and no trophies. The best way to get the most customers in Smash is to please those who love the characters first and foremost. The more characters there are, the more customers there are. It's a character-driven series, not "unique character". It has nothing to do with just the specific character alone. Having everybody is what makes it such a strong game right now.
But not having other characters still burns people who wanted them in. No matter what he does, some fanbases are gonna get burned. But comparatively few people would have been burned if YL and Pichu, for example, weren't brought back. They don't need "Everyone is Here" to brand it as the Ultimate Smash game. And just because it's well-selling doesn't mean it could be even more well-selling if it had other stuff, although I'm no marketer.

If, instead of bringing every vet back they had put those resources into actual new content nobody has seen before, they could have rocked E3 just fine. Imagine a rapid-fire Direct where they reveal Ridley, King K. Rool, Isaac, Daisy, and Banjo (or some other massive third party crossover), then still have Isabelle, Simon/Richter, Chrom/Dark Samus, Kencineroar, perhaps a semiclone like Dixie, one or two cut vets like Snake or ICs, Spirits mode, and maybe even one more hype unique still up their sleeves for the other Directs. Plus not having every vet revealed from the start would allow them to sprinkle in the news of returning fighters into the blog posts, keeping them way less boring than they were. This would have been ridiculous, and would have blown everybody's mind. And really this is only a handful of extra newcomers (two or three plus a clone) in exchange for a bunch of vets that most people didn't expect to be back anyway. Instead, they fired most of their bullets from the get go and ran out later. You don't make roster decisions based on a gimmick. You pick as many of the best characters as you can, new and old, and then trust that your marketing team can organize it well. If the content is all stuff people want and it's presented well, the game will do fine.
 

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But not having other characters still burns people who wanted them in. No matter what he does, some fanbases are gonna get burned. But comparatively few people would have been burned if YL and Pichu, for example, weren't brought back. They don't need "Everyone is Here" to brand it as the Ultimate Smash game. And just because it's well-selling doesn't mean it could be even more well-selling if it had other stuff, although I'm no marketer.
It's the best selling Smash to date so far. So no, it's pretty clear it did work.

If, instead of bringing every vet back they had put those resources into actual new content nobody has seen before, they could have rocked E3 just fine. Imagine a rapid-fire Direct where they reveal Ridley, King K. Rool, Isaac, Daisy, and Banjo (or some other massive third party crossover), then still have Isabelle, Simon/Richter, Chrom/Dark Samus, Kencineroar, perhaps a semiclone like Dixie, one or two cut vets like Snake or ICs, Spirits mode, and maybe even one more hype unique still up their sleeves for the other Directs. Plus not having every vet revealed from the start would allow them to sprinkle in the news of returning fighters into the blog posts, keeping them way less boring than they were. This would have been ridiculous, and would have blown everybody's mind. And really this is only a handful of extra newcomers (two or three plus a clone) in exchange for a bunch of vets that most people didn't expect to be back anyway. Instead, they fired most of their bullets from the get go and ran out later. You don't make roster decisions based on a gimmick. You pick as many of the best characters as you can, new and old, and then trust that your marketing team can organize it well. If the content is all stuff people want and it's presented well, the game will do fine.
They rocked E3 extremely well. The game went severely well and everyone being back was met with an extremely high amount of praise. Smash overtook E3 so severely that few remember what else was shown there. It stole the show. Also, how can Sakurai have the "best gaming character game in the world" if he keeps removing tons of characters? The smartest thing to do at that point was to have one last final push before actual downsizing was a necessity. He did it for the fans, and it paid off. Heavily.

Now, the Smash Blog was pretty trash. There was no reason to upload all the videos at once. It was handled really badly. Ultimate was rushed, but otherwise was handled fine as a game in itself.
 

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It's the best selling Smash to date so far. So no, it's pretty clear it did work.
I didn't say that it didn't work. I said that there are other things that they could have done instead which would have very likely been even more effective.

They rocked E3 extremely well. The game went severely well and everyone being back was met with an extremely high amount of praise. Smash overtook E3 so severely that few remember what else was shown there. It stole the show. Also, how can Sakurai have the "best gaming character game in the world" if he keeps removing tons of characters?
I mean, I don't mean to imply that "Everyone is Here" was a complete disaster. It worked fine, but I think they could have done even better if they had simply focused on new content.

How can he have the best gaming character game when he's removing characters? Maybe by adding new ones instead, as I've been suggesting this whole time? Many of the returning vets were already cut and nobody was expecting them to return. Most of them were never core pieces of the roster in the first place. It's not like I'm suggesting that they cut Mario or Diddy Kong.

Edit: there was some complaint about Nintendo's E3 presentation, actually. Though this was mostly from people not interested in Smash.
 
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I didn't say that it didn't work. I said that there are other things that they could have done instead which would have very likely been even more effective.
Very doubtful of that. Pleasing more fans with the most amount of characters in a character-driven game feels the most effective.

There's little else that could be done other than delaying it a year.

I mean, I don't mean to imply that "Everyone is Here" was a complete disaster. It worked fine, but I think they could have done even better if they had simply focused on new content.
And that's how we got outrage at tons of cuts over and over again. People were pissed off that Wolf and Snake were cut moreso than anyone else. Bringing them back did a huge number in gathering players of new and old. It wouldn't have really done better, to be honest. It'd just have way less content instead.

How can he have the best gaming character game when he's removing characters? Maybe by adding new ones instead, as I've been suggesting this whole time? Many of the returning vets were already cut and nobody was expecting them to return. Most of them were never core pieces of the roster in the first place. It's not like I'm suggesting that they cut Mario or Diddy Kong.
He never removed anyone with how Ultimate works. He strives for a certain goal. This is the only game he's gotten close to the goal since, well, Melee, which had no cuts either. And people were definitely expecting many to return. Ice Climbers, Pokemon Trainer, Wolf were all heavily expected. PT slightly less. Snake was the only truly surprise vet. Young Link was actually considered by some to switch out with Toon Link in 4 to represented ALBW and OOT's re-release. Pichu actually was considered a potential Smash 4 DLC due to how easy he was to remake.

People expect characters back even if they're clones/3rd party. Few except cuts, to be frank. It's not a normal thing for Smash.
 

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Very doubtful of that. Pleasing more fans with the most amount of characters in a character-driven game feels the most effective.

There's little else that could be done other than delaying it a year.
Why would you doubt that? I just gave an outline of what they could have done instead, though that's only one possibility and is admittedly a bit speculative. Of course you want as many characters as possible, but when you're pushing over 60 characters, having a few less probably won't change much if it's done in exchange for new content that will get people excited.

He strives for a certain goal. This is the only game he's gotten close to the goal since, well, Melee, which had no cuts either. And people were definitely expecting many to return. Ice Climbers, Pokemon Trainer, Wolf were all heavily expected. PT slightly less. Snake was the only truly surprise vet. Young Link was actually considered by some to switch out with Toon Link in 4 to represented ALBW and OOT's re-release. Pichu actually was considered a potential Smash 4 DLC due to how easy he was to remake.

People expect characters back even if they're clones/3rd party. Few except cuts, to be frank. It's not a normal thing for Smash.
On RTC, Snake, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Pichu, and Young Link all got less than 20% in their chance score. The only two that were expected at all were ICs and Wolf. They probably could have easily gotten away with just bringing back one or two out of the trio of ICs, Snake, and Wolf along with most of the Smash 4 roster (and they could have probably cut a few from 4 as well without too much clamor).

And cuts happened both in Brawl and 4. In Melee the returning roster was small enough that it wasn't too hard to bring everyone back, and Ultimate is a very unique situation that may not happen again any time soon. If people don't expect cuts, then that's on them. They should expect there to be at least a few in any Smash game; we just got a special case this time.
 
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Why would you doubt that? I just gave an outline of what they could have done instead, though that's only one possibility and is admittedly a bit speculative. Of course you want as many characters as possible, but when you're pushing over 60 characters, having a few less probably won't change much if it's done in exchange for new content that will get people excited.
It wouldn't be a few less. It'd be a pretty low number if they cut characters cause a small amount of people didn't like 'em. Each game had a tiny slew of cuts at best. You weren't really going to save much. Keeping IC's cut wouldn't do anything other than massively disappoint people, who hated the 3DS version for the cut alone. It got a very hefty amount of backlash, a bit more than Snake, as people knew Konami was prickish at that time(though that isn't necessarily why he was cut, but people blamed Konami anyway without any real evidence). Pichu was not hard to make and would've taken little development time, same with every clone. Pokemon Trainer was actually pretty well-liked, just not Stamina and Type Weaknesses. Stamina is gone, and I can't confirm the Type-related stuff, so the real downsides are eliminated. And Squirtle and Ivysaur are also very iconic and popular Pokemon.

On RTC, Snake, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Pichu, and Young Link all got less than 20% in their chance score. The only two that were expected at all were ICs and Wolf. They probably could have easily gotten away with just bringing back one or two out of the trio of ICs, Snake, and Wolf along with most of the Smash 4 roster (and they could have probably cut a few from 4 as well without too much clamor).
RTC does not indicate actual reality. Things don't work that way. SB is also a very tiny pool of customers. We're a pretty small minority and don't represent the general consumer if we simply take our "vote" total on this forum. We're also a hardcore fanbase. That's not the general consumers that needs to be sold too completely. And hardcore fanbase doesn't mean simply people who played more than one game. It's those who are extremely dedicated to the series like we are. Many are still players of multiple games, but don't talk about it each day either. That's the typical person that is being sold to, just like with most games, your usual consumer is the target. Though he's actually targeting both the casual and hardcore fanbase in different ways. It's not like he's actually considered either one more important than the other.

And cuts happened both in Brawl and 4. In Melee the returning roster was small enough that it wasn't too hard to bring everyone back, and Ultimate is a very unique situation that may not happen again any time soon. If people don't expect cuts, then that's on them. They should expect there to be at least a few in any Smash game; we just got a special case this time.
And those cuts were met with a lot of annoyance, despair, and disappointment. Yes, this is a one time thing. Doesn't change that it was a high priority because he wanted to give all his fans the actual stuff that is relevant, the characters. Or that it was a highly logical thing to do, since there won't ever be another chance. A lot of those newer characters could get in some day, sure, but it's not really that they somehow had a magical chance even if we had a smaller roster compared to the massive one we have now. For instance, if Polar is to be believed, Nintendo was very surprised by how massive the disappointment was that he was still an AT. So I am somewhat doubting he would've gotten in by that point, since that means he wasn't even considered for playable. I'm taking this rumor as a grain of salt, but Nintendo has proven to not be aware of many things.
 

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RTC is a garbage heap if you want to calculate actual chance and want because too many characters get shoved aside because the person voting and posting in question hasn't heard of them so they just write "abstain" and nominate some ****ing Z-list Fate character or a random Pokemon or whatever. Meanwhile people who actually see those characters as likely or wanted have to actually enter the thread, post more than two sentences for each category, and give themselves enough confidence to write high chance or want scores without worry of being judged. And also, you know as well as I do that RTC is a tiny sample size in comparison to the rest of the board and it's made up of people with giant gaps in knowledge and no desire to actually do the research posting again and again about Grovyle.

RTC is a laugh. It's fun. It's enjoyable to rate wild out there choices and constantly nominate a Style Savvy character or the Wave Race Guy. But it's not even close to a good study when it comes to debating a character's active desire in the fanbase and should never be taken as such.
 
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It wouldn't be a few less. It'd be a pretty low number if they cut characters cause a small amount of people didn't like 'em. Each game had a tiny slew of cuts at best. You weren't really going to save much. Keeping IC's cut wouldn't do anything other than massively disappoint people, who hated the 3DS version for the cut alone. It got a very hefty amount of backlash, a bit more than Snake, as people knew Konami was prickish at that time(though that isn't necessarily why he was cut, but people blamed Konami anyway without any real evidence). Pichu was not hard to make and would've taken little development time, same with every clone. Pokemon Trainer was actually pretty well-liked, just not Stamina and Type Weaknesses. Stamina is gone, and I can't confirm the Type-related stuff, so the real downsides are eliminated. And Squirtle and Ivysaur are also very iconic and popular Pokemon.
I mean, it's not cutting characters just for the sake of lessening the stress on the dev team or downsizing the game. It's making cuts so that other newer stuff that is better overall can be more feasible. While I didn't necessarily love the idea of ICs being cut, I'd be okay with them staying out if it meant we got something better in their place. The main gripe I'd have with ICs being cut is the removal of an entire franchise, though Ice Climber was probably only considered worthy in the first place because Sakurai specifically wanted an NES rep and saw more moveset potential in them than others. But now that we have seen stuff like Duck Hunt be made feasible, I think the doors are open wider for other NES reps who may have been considered less doable in the past. Ideally we'd be able to keep Ice Climbers but I wouldn't be hurt if they stayed cut. They were popular on the ballot, though, so they are justified in being in the game.

You have to find the balance between keeping old stuff and adding new stuff. Ultimate is incredibly lopsided towards one end of this spectrum. They did market the game pretty well, which helped overshadow the fact that very little of this game is actually new in terms of content (gameplay-wise it feels like a solid upgrade from 4, but we only got 4 new stages and 6 unique newcomers; I find Spirits mode to be more like a glorified event mode with lots of neat references). Pichu, Ivysaur, and Squirtle are pretty popular Pokémon, but popular Pokémon are a dime a dozen. We have a pretty balanced Pokémon roster even without them, both in terms of representing the series' gameplay and its history. Personally I wasn't disappointed at all to see Charizard revealed as a solo character in 4; he's the most iconic of the Kanto starters and represents his series well (mind you, Charizard's actually my least favorite Kanto starter but he is the most deserving).

RTC does not indicate actual reality. Things don't work that way. SB is also a very tiny pool of customers. We're a pretty small minority and don't represent the general consumer if we simply take our "vote" total on this forum. We're also a hardcore fanbase. That's not the general consumers that needs to be sold too completely. And hardcore fanbase doesn't mean simply people who played more than one game. It's those who are extremely dedicated to the series like we are. Many are still players of multiple games, but don't talk about it each day either. That's the typical person that is being sold to, just like with most games, your usual consumer is the target. Though he's actually targeting both the casual and hardcore fanbase in different ways. It's not like he's actually considered either one more important than the other.
Fair enough on RTC. I was mainly gunning for a quick example of how people didn't expect certain vets back. But do you really think that many people expected, say, Young Link back after being absent from the last two games? Very few people would've bet on him being in Ultimate when the game was first announced. Without the special scenario of Ultimate coming right after 4, almost everybody would have expected at least a handful of cuts. Even more "casual" players have observed that there were cuts in Brawl and 4; people do expect most characters to come back but they don't expect all characters to be back.

And those cuts were met with a lot of annoyance, despair, and disappointment. Yes, this is a one time thing. Doesn't change that it was a high priority because he wanted to give all his fans the actual stuff that is relevant, the characters. Or that it was a highly logical thing to do, since there won't ever be another chance. A lot of those newer characters could get in some day, sure, but it's not really that they somehow had a magical chance even if we had a smaller roster compared to the massive one we have now. For instance, if Polar is to be believed, Nintendo was very surprised by how massive the disappointment was that he was still an AT. So I am somewhat doubting he would've gotten in by that point, since that means he wasn't even considered for playable. I'm taking this rumor as a grain of salt, but Nintendo has proven to not be aware of many things.
But the same feelings of annoyance and disappointment were felt when Waluigi, Isaac, Takamaru, Bomberman, Krystal, Shovel Knight, Shadow, Skull Kid, and more were unceremoniously AT'd. No matter what he does, somebody's gonna be disappointed. This is why priority shouldn't necessarily be given just because something was in the game before. Each game is a separate entity, and each character has to be in the game based on its own merits, not the specific circumstances that justified their inclusion ten years ago.

With Polar, I trust that he's not outright lying to us and his source is probably real; however, we don't know exactly what his source's position is so it's hard to judge whether he'd actually have the information he's apparently got. If Isaac wasn't considered, though, I don't think it's because they didn't notice him on the ballot. The AT coming back, the Mii Costume, and multiple GS Spirits are evidence that they absolutely did know he was popular at least to some extent. But it's possible that "never considered" means that they saw him on the ballot but never seriously gave him a chance because they were looking for characters that fit their particular interests. He may have gotten passed over as part of the cherry picking; not saying that this definitely happened, but it's one possible way to explain both the significant increase in GS content and the information from Polar.
 

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I mean, it's not cutting characters just for the sake of lessening the stress on the dev team or downsizing the game. It's making cuts so that other newer stuff that is better overall can be more feasible. While I didn't necessarily love the idea of ICs being cut, I'd be okay with them staying out if it meant we got something better in their place. The main gripe I'd have with ICs being cut is the removal of an entire franchise, though Ice Climber was probably only considered worthy in the first place because Sakurai specifically wanted an NES rep and saw more moveset potential in them than others. But now that we have seen stuff like Duck Hunt be made feasible, I think the doors are open wider for other NES reps who may have been considered less doable in the past. Ideally we'd be able to keep Ice Climbers but I wouldn't be hurt if they stayed cut. They were popular on the ballot, though, so they are justified in being in the game.
I wouldn't call it better overall. But you would. It's too subjective. The only thing that can be said is that you'll get more players with more returning vets at best. Regardless, let's agree to disagree on this.

You have to find the balance between keeping old stuff and adding new stuff. Ultimate is incredibly lopsided towards one end of this spectrum. They did market the game pretty well, which helped overshadow the fact that very little of this game is actually new in terms of content (gameplay-wise it feels like a solid upgrade from 4, but we only got 4 new stages and 6 unique newcomers; I find Spirits mode to be more like a glorified event mode with lots of neat references). Pichu, Ivysaur, and Squirtle are pretty popular Pokémon, but popular Pokémon are a dime a dozen. We have a pretty balanced Pokémon roster even without them, both in terms of representing the series' gameplay and its history. Personally I wasn't disappointed at all to see Charizard revealed as a solo character in 4; he's the most iconic of the Kanto starters and represents his series well (mind you, Charizard's actually my least favorite Kanto starter but he is the most deserving).
Eh, Spirits is a pretty huge mode, and Classic is severely different from before. It was more the rushed nature that they had to cut stuff. However, there's a crapload of spirits, akin to Trophies, way more than any game. It still has over 200 pieces of new content, far more than any game. So it does have tons of new content regardless. Albeit, I get it's not as major as trophies, AT's, etc. but it's definitely new. I think Ultimate was done right in that regard, just not in doing a good job of having enough basic playable modes and not enough playtesting. Isabelle being glitch-ridden is ridiculously annoying(and only gives people further justification to hate on her. Oy. Sure, I didn't really support her being in, though I did have a strict view on her being impossible as an Echo... for the actual reasons I gave, more or less too. With a tiny few differences, she's playing more or less what I expected from a semi-clone. Like, removing the Fishing Rod and it's about what I imagined her as).

Anyway, it's why people thought if PT got cut, Charizard was the blatant one to come back. But you either get Charizard or PT. Ivysaur and Squirtle never stood out on their own to anywhere near the same degree. Pichu had the advantage of being way easier to create and could be a fun lethal joke character with Rage. It also had the advantage of not being tied to a terrible mechanic like Stamina/Elemental Damage. Damaging itself isn't actually even an issue with it, as it's able to take advantage of it and has more power than Pikachu but with more risk. It doesn't make it super competitive(in Melee, at least. It seems to be doing decently well in Ultimate from what I heard).

Fair enough on RTC. I was mainly gunning for a quick example of how people didn't expect certain vets back. But do you really think that many people expected, say, Young Link back after being absent from the last two games? Very few people would've bet on him being in Ultimate when the game was first announced. Without the special scenario of Ultimate coming right after 4, almost everybody would have expected at least a handful of cuts. Even more "casual" players have observed that there were cuts in Brawl and 4; people do expect most characters to come back but they don't expect all characters to be back.
I didn't expect Young Link back either, as long as Toon Link was there. But it was also pretty well known that they played super differently with only really sharing some animations at best. I don't think Ultimate coming after 4 meant much either. I honestly was skeptical of Cloud making it back, same with Roy and Corrin. Rest I felt were a lot safer.

But the same feelings of annoyance and disappointment were felt when Waluigi, Isaac, Takamaru, Bomberman, Krystal, Shovel Knight, Shadow, Skull Kid, and more were unceremoniously AT'd. No matter what he does, somebody's gonna be disappointed. This is why priority shouldn't necessarily be given just because something was in the game before. Each game is a separate entity, and each character has to be in the game based on its own merits, not the specific circumstances that justified their inclusion ten years ago.
Actually, only that could apply to Shadow and Ashley. They just barely got a cameo and no mentions. The rest were properly showcased. Waluigi was actually used as an example of how the mechanic worked. To note, a lot of his character is him being a "loser", which while it may seem mean, is actually how they used him as an example. They tried to capture his character. Though that said, those AT's are still pretty well done. And yeah, you can't please everyone, heh.

With Polar, I trust that he's not outright lying to us and his source is probably real; however, we don't know exactly what his source's position is so it's hard to judge whether he'd actually have the information he's apparently got. If Isaac wasn't considered, though, I don't think it's because they didn't notice him on the ballot. The AT coming back, the Mii Costume, and multiple GS Spirits are evidence that they absolutely did know he was popular at least to some extent. But it's possible that "never considered" means that they saw him on the ballot but never seriously gave him a chance because they were looking for characters that fit their particular interests. He may have gotten passed over as part of the cherry picking; not saying that this definitely happened, but it's one possible way to explain both the significant increase in GS content and the information from Polar.
Well, multiple GS stuff doesn't necessarily mean Isaac was popular among the ballot. It could mean more about GS content being asked for. It could've been highly varied among him, Felix, Alex, and others. We don't know. It's comparable to the Casltevania votes. It's very vague on what it could be like, but pretty clearly affected the content.
 

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The only thing that can be said is that you'll get more players with more returning vets at best.
You'll also get more players with more new content and exciting, in-demand characters.

But yeah, we probably can't convince each other on this.

Eh, Spirits is a pretty huge mode, and Classic is severely different from before
Spirits definitely took a ton of effort, but IMO it's very repetitive. They could've just had a "create an Event Mode match" thing where people could set what characters you'd fight, if there'd be any ATs that appear, etc. Then the Spirits could just have been collectible in the same manner that Trophies and Stickers were. But people did want some semblance of a story-mode, so I guess it was an alright blend of old 1P stuff.

Actually, only that could apply to Shadow and Ashley. They just barely got a cameo and no mentions. The rest were properly showcased. Waluigi was actually used as an example of how the mechanic worked. To note, a lot of his character is him being a "loser", which while it may seem mean, is actually how they used him as an example. They tried to capture his character. Though that said, those AT's are still pretty well done.
I mean, they may been showcased properly but the main point was that people were incredibly disappointed by many characters being left out from playable status. Sure, people would be disappointed if a vet got cut but adding the vets back made many of these other characters less feasible, and IMO a larger number of people were let down because of it.

Well, multiple GS stuff doesn't necessarily mean Isaac was popular among the ballot. It could mean more about GS content being asked for. It could've been highly varied among him, Felix, Alex, and others. We don't know. It's comparable to the Casltevania votes. It's very vague on what it could be like, but pretty clearly affected the content.
I mean, it's almost certain that the vast majority of GS votes went for Isaac, but the bigger point is that it's clear that GS was noticed on the ballot in some way.
 

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You'll also get more players with more new content and exciting, in-demand characters.
And lose probably more players with cuts. It goes both ways. That's the problem. People aren't going to pick up the game just cause there's a lot of content. They want specific things. I've seen one rather annoying player who won't pick it up simply cause Home Run Contest is cut. I can safely say that this is common enough due to how salty people get.

But yeah, we probably can't convince each other on this.
I have a hard time believing that returning content is a bad thing in any way unless it was bad content since its inception. That might be why.

Spirits definitely took a ton of effort, but IMO it's very repetitive. They could've just had a "create an Event Mode match" thing where people could set what characters you'd fight, if there'd be any ATs that appear, etc. Then the Spirits could just have been collectible in the same manner that Trophies and Stickers were. But people did want some semblance of a story-mode, so I guess it was an alright blend of old 1P stuff.
An event creator would require way too much extra programming and be impossible to playtest at all. The way they did it was far more likely to work, so I can see why. They removed almost everything customizable from the previous two games, so that could say a lot about how they view that idea as "important". It still exists... barely. At least it's there, just way lesser than how 4 was done.

I mean, they may been showcased properly but the main point was that people were incredibly disappointed by many characters being left out from playable status. Sure, people would be disappointed if a vet got cut but adding the vets back made many of these other characters less feasible, and IMO a larger number of people were let down because of it.
Mewtwo, Snake, and Ice Cliimbers were hit with significantly high disappointment by being unavailable. Guys still in the game just not upgraded generally didn't have a ton of raging fans, just a tiny selection of people being ridiculous.

I mean, it's almost certain that the vast majority of GS votes went for Isaac, but the bigger point is that it's clear that GS was noticed on the ballot in some way.
It also could've been a fairly small amount of votes too combined for all we know. If Polar's source is right, it probably wasn't a highly voted franchise. But it's still quite possible that's why got the AT update, due to being a highly popular choice.
 

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Joker, although truth be told, was personally for me not very hype at all [for a very self-admittedly shallow reason], is probably going to be the only massively hype reveal as far as the DLC goes.

Smash Reveals are frontloaded, at least in regards to popularity: Bowser, Wario, Solid Snake, Mega Man, Ryu, Cloud, Inkling, Ridley, King K. Rool, Joker, all of them extremely popular characters from very well known games, some in the Smash fandom, others being massive icons worldwide. All of them are revealed sooner rather than later. While (with exception to Corrin, and within the Smash Fandom Incineroar, although it can be argued the bulk of Corrin's unpopularity comes from his game's localization) none of the last characters were contested in popularity, it's clear that Mr. Game and Watch, Olimar, Shulk, Duck Hunt, Corrin, Bayonetta, and Incineroar were not the most popular. The only exception is a character that warranted a delay, Sonic.

Thus, the following DLC will probably be comprised of games less popular [within the Smash Fandom] than Persona 5. Maybe we might get a showstopper as the last character, but at the very least, the next three will probably be underwhelming by Smash Fanbase standards, leading to a lot of "$25 wasted" and "I should've just bought Joker" type comments in the community for a while. Then a final confirmation of what nobody was hoping for, that this is the end of Smash Ultimate's roster, at least for a year or two, but more likely the end of Smash until Smash 6 comes out, if we're even alive at that point, and if it even exists. No matter how many placeholders there are, it doesn't mean we are getting that many characters. I don't believe in a Wave 3 at all, and Wave 2 looks sketch at best, because it relies on a corporation being a corporation and continuing development out of greed (but this time it also benefits the consumer).

That being said, underwhelming to the Smash Fandom =/= underwhelming to the public at all. Most of the people buying and playing it probably won't get too concerned over who's in, so they're not going to get fussy over it. And it's not like the so-called "unpopular" characters are bad. It's just that they're probably not going to be our big picks. If you like them, congrats.

The second DLC character got semi-leaked: we have a general idea of who it is. Their codename is "Brave", which means that more likely than not it's Erdrick. Or the Dragon Quest Luminary. But I can't not see it as a Dragon Quest character. I'd love to say "Brave of Puyo Puyo is a thing so it's Arle" but I'm not a moron, and if I'm in denial of anything it's Arle's chances. The stats fit way too well with Erdrick's design.

With this, I'm currently expecting the DLC to look like this, with the last three in any order:
  1. Joker
  2. Character that's in the Spoiler
  3. Steve/Yuri Lowell/Crash Bandicoot [I can't be TOO cynical]
  4. Sylux/Adeleine/Gen 8 Pokemon
  5. Somebody else from an already represented series [Porky, Pre Gen 8 Pokemon, Zelda character, Fire Emblem character, or for a quick joke Pikmin President]
We're only getting three new series, as far as I can see. That's enough room in the sound test menu for three new series, think box theory. If we get more, we might get more DLC after all, but I'm trying to keep things as grounded as possible. All of them are not in Smash Ultimate in any way, shape, or form, and that is what I expect. If we do see any spirit it will most likely be Rayman or Shantae, maybe Dixie Kong, Paper Mario or Elma. I don't think any third party company will have more than three characters for now, maybe this would change in a Wave 2, but I don't think a Wave 2 will happen. Even then, I doubt Assist Trophies will make the jump. Anything can happen, but this is my interpretation.

If anybody thinks I'm trying to say "your most wanted has no chance", I'm not. I'm just trying to underwhelm myself in advance. Not because I hate fun, but because we're going to go through the exact same song and dance as we have before. Joker sets the bar for number 2 incredibly high, they only appeal to a niche audience in the west, and this continues.
 
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Some spoilers ahead about the recent characters findings.

What i find very interesting is that in the case Jack and Brave are for Joker and Erdrick respectively is that they really are using codenames, for example other characters in the game's internal files are referred to with their regular name (Link, Simon, Mario, Zelda, etc.) or their japanese name (Koopa, Lizardon, Gaogaen, Rockman, etc.) but the two previously mentioned use actual codenames instead of their official name, Jack and Brave are not as direct as the rest and if i had to guess is because they are still working on them and are aware that people can just figure out how to lurk those files, pretty clever i have to say.
 
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Joker, although truth be told, was personally for me not very hype at all [for a very self-admittedly shallow reason], is probably going to be the only massively hype reveal as far as the DLC goes.

Smash Reveals are frontloaded, at least in regards to popularity: Bowser, Wario, Solid Snake, Mega Man, Ryu, Cloud, Inkling, Ridley, King K. Rool, Joker, all of them extremely popular characters from very well known games, some in the Smash fandom, others being massive icons worldwide. All of them are revealed sooner rather than later. While (with exception to Corrin, and within the Smash Fandom Incineroar, although it can be argued the bulk of Corrin's unpopularity comes from his game's localization) none of the last characters were contested in popularity, it's clear that Mr. Game and Watch, Olimar, Shulk, Duck Hunt, Corrin, Bayonetta, and Incineroar were not the most popular. The only exception is a character that warranted a delay, Sonic.

Thus, the following DLC will probably be comprised of games less popular [within the Smash Fandom] than Persona 5. Maybe we might get a showstopper as the last character, but at the very least, the next three will probably be underwhelming by Smash Fanbase standards, leading to a lot of "$25 wasted" and "I should've just bought Joker" type comments in the community for a while. Then a final confirmation of what nobody was hoping for, that this is the end of Smash Ultimate's roster, at least for a year or two, but more likely the end of Smash until Smash 6 comes out, if we're even alive at that point, and if it even exists. No matter how many placeholders there are, it doesn't mean we are getting that many characters. I don't believe in a Wave 3 at all, and Wave 2 looks sketch at best, because it relies on a corporation being a corporation and continuing development out of greed (but this time it also benefits the consumer).

That being said, underwhelming to the Smash Fandom =/= underwhelming to the public at all. Most of the people buying and playing it probably won't get too concerned over who's in, so they're not going to get fussy over it. And it's not like the so-called "unpopular" characters are bad. It's just that they're probably not going to be our big picks. If you like them, congrats.

The second DLC character got semi-leaked: we have a general idea of who it is. Their codename is "Brave", which means that more likely than not it's Erdrick. Or the Dragon Quest Luminary. But I can't not see it as a Dragon Quest character. I'd love to say "Brave of Puyo Puyo is a thing so it's Arle" but I'm not a moron, and if I'm in denial of anything it's Arle's chances. The stats fit way too well with Erdrick's design.

With this, I'm currently expecting the DLC to look like this, with the last three in any order:
  1. Joker
  2. Character that's in the Spoiler
  3. Steve/Yuri Lowell/Crash Bandicoot [I can't be TOO cynical]
  4. Sylux/Adeleine/Gen 8 Pokemon
  5. Somebody else from an already represented series [Porky, Pre Gen 8 Pokemon, Zelda character, Fire Emblem character, or for a quick joke Pikmin President]
We're only getting three new series, as far as I can see. That's enough room in the sound test menu for three new series, think box theory. If we get more, we might get more DLC after all, but I'm trying to keep things as grounded as possible. All of them are not in Smash Ultimate in any way, shape, or form, and that is what I expect. If we do see any spirit it will most likely be Rayman or Shantae, maybe Dixie Kong, Paper Mario or Elma. I don't think any third party company will have more than three characters for now, maybe this would change in a Wave 2, but I don't think a Wave 2 will happen. Even then, I doubt Assist Trophies will make the jump. Anything can happen, but this is my interpretation.

If anybody thinks I'm trying to say "your most wanted has no chance", I'm not. I'm just trying to underwhelm myself in advance. Not because I hate fun, but because we're going to go through the exact same song and dance as we have before. Joker sets the bar for number 2 incredibly high, they only appeal to a niche audience in the west, and this continues.
I could see those spirits being upgraded, though I could also see Captain Toad and Bandana Waddle Dee getting an upgrade treatment as well, though any upgrades won't happen until the already unlikely season 2. As for other first parties like you list in 4 and 5, I'm not sure I expect those either, mainly because we were told to expect the unexpected, and many were expecting an advertisement character, such as Gen 8 or FE 3 Houses.
 

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And lose probably more players with cuts. It goes both ways. That's the problem. People aren't going to pick up the game just cause there's a lot of content. They want specific things. I've seen one rather annoying player who won't pick it up simply cause Home Run Contest is cut. I can safely say that this is common enough due to how salty people get.
In the end, I don't think they lost too many players in Smash 3DS because the Ice Climbers weren't in. Maybe a few, but not a significant number. You keep saying how the Smash fanbase is a very small portion of the entire consumer base; well, the group of people who will decide not to buy a game because of one specific thing is an even more extreme minority. And even then, a lot of these people still end up with the game anyway; maybe after awhile the disappointment wears off, or maybe a family member knows they like Smash and get them the game for their birthday or Christmas or some other event, not knowing that they didn't want it.

have a hard time believing that returning content is a bad thing in any way unless it was bad content since its inception. That might be why.
It's not that it's "bad." It's just "not as good" as new stuff. A lot of the vets were clones and gimmicky characters. It's fair to have a few of those in any Smash game, but we don't need a whole crew of them. Now, there are some characters like PP that I personally view as "bad" inclusions that I'd simply rather not have. But I'm not trying to let that be part of my argument.

Mewtwo, Snake, and Ice Cliimbers were hit with significantly high disappointment by being unavailable. Guys still in the game just not upgraded generally didn't have a ton of raging fans, just a tiny selection of people being ridiculous.
Mewtwo, Snake, and Ice Climbers were all popular. Others, like Young Link, were not. There will be a few popular characters that get cut though, and in that case it depends on the character. With ICs, there were technical issues involved, but even without that it was hard to include a NES franchise that was never super notable; I am in favor of adding lesser-known franchises and I like ICs but there's no reason to give them priority over other smaller franchises just because they've been there before. Say, for example, that they could've resolved the issues with ICs if they had cut Shulk and put those resources into ICs. At that point, I'd really rather just have Shulk and no ICs, like we did.

And aside from the minority of people who raged at characters like Isaac and Waluigi being excluded from PC status, there is still a large number of people who are fans of those characters and were just as disappointed, but just didn't express it to that obscene level. People who don't even really play Smash but love Golden Sun were disappointed about Isaac, as were people who have never played Golden Sun but love Smash and wanted Isaac in. As you've said, every character has its fans. So every exclusion is gonna upset some people, whether they're old or new. So just being a vet doesn't change anything; they have to be considered individually and by their own merits.

also could've been a fairly small amount of votes too combined for all we know. If Polar's source is right, it probably wasn't a highly voted franchise. But it's still quite possible that's why got the AT update, due to being a highly popular choice.
By all measures, Golden Sun had a noticeable performance on the ballot. If you don't trust polls then you could argue that it wasn't the top choice after K. Rool, but it was up there.
 
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Door Key Pig

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We're only getting three new series, as far as I can see. That's enough room in the sound test menu for three new series, think box theory. If we get more, we might get more DLC after all, but I'm trying to keep things as grounded as possible. All of them are not in Smash Ultimate in any way, shape, or form, and that is what I expect. If we do see any spirit it will most likely be Rayman or Shantae, maybe Dixie Kong, Paper Mario or Elma. I don't think any third party company will have more than three characters for now, maybe this would change in a Wave 2, but I don't think a Wave 2 will happen. Even then, I doubt Assist Trophies will make the jump. Anything can happen, but this is my interpretation.
I doubt that means there's specifically only three brand new franchises in the DLC pass. The box theory was about this thing that was going to be advertised and sold to people that had a pattern that made sense to only fit in with the suggestion of Ken and Incineroar coming.

To contrast, no one cares about how "gapless" a music menu icon listing is, let alone Nintendo assuming it ever crossed their minds for more than a few seconds.
 

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In the end, I don't think they lost too many players in Smash 3DS because the Ice Climbers weren't in. Maybe a few, but not a significant number. You keep saying how the Smash fanbase is a very small portion of the entire consumer base; well, the group of people who will decide not to buy a game because of one specific thing is an even more extreme minority. And even then, a lot of these people still end up with the game anyway; maybe after awhile the disappointment wears off, or maybe a family member knows they like Smash and get them the game for their birthday or Christmas or some other event, not knowing that they didn't want it.
Actually, there's a pretty large amount of players who were perfectly okay with an uneven roster and hated the 3DS version. But that goes back to the point that these decisions, including all vets, do not lose much of any players. We definitely lost more players with cuts than gains.

It's not that it's "bad." It's just "not as good" as new stuff. A lot of the vets were clones and gimmicky characters. It's fair to have a few of those in any Smash game, but we don't need a whole crew of them. Now, there are some characters like PP that I personally view as "bad" inclusions that I'd simply rather not have. But I'm not trying to let that be part of my argument.
Eh, that's way too subjective.

Mewtwo, Snake, and Ice Climbers were all popular. Others, like Young Link, were not. There will be a few popular characters that get cut though, and in that case it depends on the character. With ICs, there were technical issues involved, but even without that it was hard to include a NES franchise that was never super notable; I am in favor of adding lesser-known franchises and I like ICs but there's no reason to give them priority over other smaller franchises just because they've been there before. Say, for example, that they could've resolved the issues with ICs if they had cut Shulk and put those resources into ICs. At that point, I'd really rather just have Shulk and no ICs, like we did.
Young Link absolutely is popular. They all are. Some more than others, of course. The same logic applies to cuts in the same way it applies to anyone not making it in. They all are met with disappointment.

And aside from the minority of people who raged at characters like Isaac and Waluigi being excluded from PC status, there is still a large number of people who are fans of those characters and were just as disappointed, but just didn't express it to that obscene level. People who don't even really play Smash but love Golden Sun were disappointed about Isaac, as were people who have never played Golden Sun but love Smash and wanted Isaac in. As you've said, every character has its fans. So every exclusion is gonna upset some people, whether they're old or new. So just being a vet doesn't change anything; they have to be considered individually and by their own merits.
I can say the same thing for every single [/quote]
Same minority who were fine with tons of cuts. Works the same way.

By all measures, Golden Sun had a noticeable performance on the ballot. If you don't trust polls then you could argue that it wasn't the top choice after K. Rool, but it was up there.
We can't really confirm that until we have better information on how the poll worked. Likely isn't the same as speaking in absolutes.
 

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Actually, there's a pretty large amount of players who were perfectly okay with an uneven roster and hated the 3DS version. But that goes back to the point that these decisions, including all vets, do not lose much of any players. We definitely lost more players with cuts than gains.
People hated the 3DS version for plenty of reasons other than the Ice Climbers not being in. A lot of the outcry over Ice Climbers was just on the principle of characters being cut due to technical limitations, though there were also a good number that actually did like the ICs, I'll admit.

Again, there are very few people who straight up won't buy the game because one character isn't in, especially if there are good reasons for them to be excluded like technical limitations, third party issues, or a general recognition that they were never a crucial part of the roster makeup.

Eh, that's way too subjective.
When you look at particular examples, it can be a bit subjective. But in general, new stuff gets people excited. New stuff gets people to buy the game. I don't see how a handful of clones and gimmicks makes the game better overall than one or two brand new characters who could potentially add new franchises, massive third party crossovers, or popular fan requests to the roster.

Young Link absolutely is popular. They all are. Some more than others, of course. The same logic applies to cuts in the same way it applies to anyone not making it in. They all are met with disappointment.
He's popular to a limited extent.

And yeah, they are all met with disappointment; that's what I've been saying. So if some are pleased and some are disappointed either way, try to please as many as possible and, if that's too hard to decide, go with whoever brings the best representation of the pieces of Nintendo's history that aren't already represented by a PC.

Same minority who were fine with tons of cuts. Works the same way.
Exactly. You can say it for anybody. So consider them all by their own merits, rather than just tilting completely to one side or the other. Characters shouldn't be included because of some catch-all gimmick.

We can't really confirm that until we have better information on how the poll worked.
The influx of GS content is extremely close to proof that Isaac had at least a decently strong performance. Add in the polls and general hype for the character around ballot time, and it's hard to say that he didn't do well.
 

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People hated the 3DS version for plenty of reasons other than the Ice Climbers not being in. A lot of the outcry over Ice Climbers was just on the principle of characters being cut due to technical limitations, though there were also a good number that actually did like the ICs, I'll admit.
It's a fan thing, really. Technical limitations was another issue people were annoyed yet. Funny thing is Smash Ultimate actually does have slowdown with IC's in 8-Player, so there was no way they were running smoothly in that particular mode on the Wii U version regardless.

Again, there are very few people who straight up won't buy the game because one character isn't in, especially if there are good reasons for them to be excluded like technical limitations, third party issues, or a general recognition that they were never a crucial part of the roster makeup.
I was more referring to the fact it does happen. But cuts do lose sales. That's undeniable. I won't pretend that having more characters despite this does increase sales. Likewise, Ultimate's sales being better because of the veterans is still a thing.There's a pretty tiny amount of people who weren't happy with a giant roster. Now, some thought the characters could be done better/differently. Isabelle is the epitome of that.

That said, I think we've hit an impasse. I feel Ultimate was done right outside of playtesting, despite my wants not being there(I didn't care for Isabelle, but I'm happy she was at least done logically and plus, Fishing Rod. I'm at least glad she wasn't in just for promotional purposes. She's popular as hell and earned it without ballot factors. Being the new mascot helps. I think she should've been more unique, but again, Fishing Rod~)
 

SPEN18

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was more referring to the fact it does happen. But cuts do lose sales. That's undeniable. I won't pretend that having more characters despite this does increase sales. Likewise, Ultimate's sales being better because of the veterans is still a thing.There's a pretty tiny amount of people who weren't happy with a giant roster. Now, some thought the characters could be done better/differently. Isabelle is the epitome of that.

That said, I think we've hit an impasse. I feel Ultimate was done right outside of playtesting, despite my wants not being there(I didn't care for Isabelle, but I'm happy she was at least done logically and plus, Fishing Rod. I'm at least glad she wasn't in just for promotional purposes. She's popular as hell and earned it without ballot factors. Being the new mascot helps. I think she should've been more unique, but again, Fishing
Personally I was worried about the game the second that "Everyone is Here" was announced. The huge reveals of Ridley and K. Rool kept me quiet about it for a while, but starting with Isabelle I really questioned Sakurai and Nintendo. I don't have a problem with Isabelle herself, mind you, though I did not like the way she was presented. If she had been presented with a clear indication that she was a semiclones and, crucially, had been revealed alongside another character, I think there would have been no problem. But the problem is that they didn't have any new characters to show aside from Kencineroar. If they had left some of the vets alone and had a few more newcomers then they would've had a much stronger home stretch towards release. Ridley, one more hype unique, Daisy, and a truckload of vets being revealed at E3 would probably be enough to achieve at least close to the same excitement level as "Everyone is Here!" And then they could spare a character or two for later on, plus maybe more vet reveals.
Also, the fact that we got a lot of vets as DLC in 4 (including Roy and Mewtwo being back from Melee) probably would have somewhat lessened the disappointments in cuts; a lot of people would have still been able to hope that a cut vet would return later in the game's life.
 

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Personally I was worried about the game the second that "Everyone is Here" was announced. The huge reveals of Ridley and K. Rool kept me quiet about it for a while, but starting with Isabelle I really questioned Sakurai and Nintendo. I don't have a problem with Isabelle herself, mind you, though I did not like the way she was presented. If she had been presented with a clear indication that she was a semiclones and, crucially, had been revealed alongside another character, I think there would have been no problem. But the problem is that they didn't have any new characters to show aside from Kencineroar. If they had left some of the vets alone and had a few more newcomers then they would've had a much stronger home stretch towards release. Ridley, one more hype unique, Daisy, and a truckload of vets being revealed at E3 would probably be enough to achieve at least close to the same excitement level as "Everyone is Here!" And then they could spare a character or two for later on, plus maybe more vet reveals.
Also, the fact that we got a lot of vets as DLC in 4 (including Roy and Mewtwo being back from Melee) probably would have somewhat lessened the disappointments in cuts; a lot of people would have still been able to hope that a cut vet would return later in the game's life.
I do agree that the reveal order stuff was handled badly.

Anyway, I think Smash 4's DLC could've had at least one more character. I get why it was done that way. Mewtwo wasn't added as a "Melee vet", but a bonus DLC cause he was the most popular vet not available. Roy and Lucas were Melee and Brawl vets. And the rest are newcomers with their own points to consider. Bayonetta was odd since the datamine gives us evidence to suggest she wasn't chosen due to the ballot. Though we don't know exactly what was going on. One thing to note, though, is that if the data we found was just AT data originally(which actually makes sense for the bodyframe work and all), Sega must've agreed to let her be used as a Fighter right after the votes got in, without changing any licensing from her IP being paid for to use as an AT. This is part of why I no longer find the AT argument I made as viable. I think she was decided upon well before the ballot for a reason we don't know, and she just happened to be highly voted for and happened to be extremely realizable. Which means, it was a pure coincidence and Sakurai's statement was misleading. I do not think he intended to make us believe she was chosen due to the ballot either. He never actually says so either.
 

Door Key Pig

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Personally I was worried about the game the second that "Everyone is Here" was announced. The huge reveals of Ridley and K. Rool kept me quiet about it for a while, but starting with Isabelle I really questioned Sakurai and Nintendo. I don't have a problem with Isabelle herself, mind you, though I did not like the way she was presented. If she had been presented with a clear indication that she was a semiclones and, crucially, had been revealed alongside another character, I think there would have been no problem. But the problem is that they didn't have any new characters to show aside from Kencineroar. If they had left some of the vets alone and had a few more newcomers then they would've had a much stronger home stretch towards release. Ridley, one more hype unique, Daisy, and a truckload of vets being revealed at E3 would probably be enough to achieve at least close to the same excitement level as "Everyone is Here!" And then they could spare a character or two for later on, plus maybe more vet reveals.
Also, the fact that we got a lot of vets as DLC in 4 (including Roy and Mewtwo being back from Melee) probably would have somewhat lessened the disappointments in cuts; a lot of people would have still been able to hope that a cut vet would return later in the game's life.
I don't see them busting their *** trying to get every character ever back in Smash Ultimate only to not make a big deal of it in advertising lol

Heck, what's the name of the game again?
 
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SPEN18

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don't see them busting their *** trying to get every character ever back in Smash Ultimate only to not make a big deal of it in advertising lol

Heck, what's the name of the game again?
I mean, part of the point is that they're trapped. If you do something like they did then you kinda have to reveal every vet at once, and you kinda have to sacrifice a significant amount of new content to bring everything back. Those two things combined created the problems that we saw with inconsistent levels of hype leading up to release. Without "Everyone is Here" they would have had a lot more options, as I somewhat explained. "Everyone is Here" was also a somewhat risky marketing strategy in that you're focusing a major part of the marketing on what is essentially a gimmick, albeit one that took a massive amount of work. If "Everyone is Here" got leaked by someone decently credible, it would have caused massive problems. That's why they kept it as secret as they did; we can give them credit for keeping it under wraps. So it's not that they tripped up on the marketing as much as it is that the direction they chose made it hard to do things any other way that they did.

And they can still call it "Ultimate" without having everybody. Just having a massive amount of content in general and decently close to all the old content would be pretty "Ultimate."
 

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Actually, the original name is Great Fray Smash Bros. Special in Japan. Ultimate's an international name. But having everyone back is far more Ultimate than leaving a tiny few stragglers behind. It actually fits a lot better. And they didn't leave themselves trapped in any way. They willingly chose this and knew what they were doing. The only thing that were trapped with was a bad deadline to get it out(but they still knew what was going on), not allowing them to get the game out with enough playtesting. They could just do another round of DLC after the first if it was just a matter of a few newcomers. That wasn't entirely the point. It absolutely has way more content than any game. Returning veterans that weren't there since Melee alone still takes a lot of time in some cases(which is none, since those were both fairly easy clones. Pokemon Trainer at best was the only one that took a bit extra work, and that depends how easy to transfer Brawl's data was. Snake too possibly). The extra characters actually weren't nearly as much work as people thought it was. Almost every single one had fairly easy to transfer data alone or were clones/echoes.

They frankly didn't spend a lot of time on creating veterans. It wouldn't have changed much if you look at the full picture. We might've gotten... maybe 1 slightly unique newcomer at best(3 if you want to push it, since that'd mean no Snake, Squirtle, or Ivysaur if you we ignore every veteran from Brawl not in 4, that was unique and didn't use someone else as an easy base. Like Wolf did, who simply wasn't higher priority for whatever reason we can't say for sure during 4. Could be the delay on SFZ making it too hard to advertise him properly), since it'd require all new data. The deadline was the only actual killer, not the decision with fairly easy to transfer characters over. So little would've realistically changed, that in the end, they actually got more high-quality characters and pleased way more fans than otherwise. We'd be losing at lot of characters(Pichu, Young Link, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Wolf, Snake) for... if lucky, up to 3 max, maybe less depending if they could make them work. Or were relevant enough at the time. Or scored high enough. There weren't exactly a lot of options that were feasible. Dixie isn't playable yet, so he clearly has a goal in mind for her, leaving her out since she'd take far long than Snake or Squirtle/Ivysaur. There's nothing to suggest he has ideas for Toad. Paper Mario might've worked out. Elma too. Not exactly any obvious 3rd party options(if Shadow didn't get in as an Echo at this point, then there's some other thoughts regarding Sonic characters we just don't know about) and Geno likely was a "nope" from SE. Captain Toad would require figuring out a gimmick that explains how he can suddenly jump when it's an integral part of his character(and he was focusing on those, with Sonic not only lacking a swimming animation, but also takes damage), so that was just more difficult than it's worth. Note that I say relevant enough and scored high, which is probably part of why Isaac is an AT again, but he might've been feasible.

So, what, two feasible characters at best while losing at least 6? Not exactly worth it. The fact a RH character isn't there may be more of an issue with the rhythm gameplay not translating well. We know that it didn't work at all for Donkey Kong's Final Smash. Besides that, Lucas doesn't have it either despite being part of his gameplay. Not everything will work out. Lucas at least works as a semi-clone of Ness and has a similar mechanic of showing off all the series' PSI abilities, which still helps to represent the game itself. I'll note that it makes sense Dixie isn't an echo. Besides the logical point that it means her hair won't be used enough, she already had an idea of how she's work. The other Echoes had no idea of how to make them work besides being an easy alternate costume in comparison, but at least they didn't have a clear plan beforehand. It doesn't mean she can't fit the echo mold, but unlike the other ones, she'd feel way more inaccurate. Dark Samus isn't great in that regard, but you still see Phazon and you still see the floaty nature. Just lacks as many stronger moves.
 

SPEN18

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But having everyone back is far more Ultimate than leaving a tiny few stragglers behind. It actually fits a lot better. And they didn't leave themselves trapped in any way. They willingly chose this and knew what they were doing. The only thing that were trapped with was a bad deadline to get it out(but they still knew what was going on), not allowing them to get the game out with enough playtesting.
Of course they did it willingly. But once they committed to that choice they had limited options as to how to present it and what they could add/change during development.

They frankly didn't spend a lot of time on creating veterans. It wouldn't have changed much if you look at the full picture. We might've gotten... maybe 1 slightly unique newcomer at best(3 if you want to push it, since that'd mean no Snake, Squirtle, or Ivysaur if you we ignore every veteran from Brawl not in 4, that was unique and didn't use someone else as an easy base.
We've been over this; veterans still took a significant amount of time and that shows in the low number of unique newcomers. And the alternate possibilities I've presented only accounted for 2-3 extra characters in exchange for a handful of veterans and just that made things seem a lot better to me.

Like Wolf did, who simply wasn't higher priority for whatever reason we can't say for sure during 4. Could be the delay on SFZ making it too hard to advertise him properly), since it'd require all new data.
Not 100% sure on Wolf, but I think him being cut was mostly due to Star Fox having a fairly rough time in recent years. It's probably a series that's past its prime, and Sakurai may have thought that 2 reps was enough for it. And really, I like Star Fox and Wolf was a fun character in Brawl but I also thought 2 reps was fine for that series at the time. If Wolf was to return in Ultimate, it should be primarily because of the ballot, as he doesn't really have much else going for him besides being slightly easier than a full unique.

There weren't exactly a lot of options that were feasible
Other than restrictions on time/dev resources and third party licensing, there really aren't many valid reasons why a character wouldn't be feasible these days. Besides, if Sakurai thought that nobody else other than the newcomers we got and the veterans were feasible, then that was probably an incorrect evaluation on his part. Surely at least a few popular and/or notable characters would be workable.

So, what, two feasible characters at best while losing at least 6? Not exactly worth it.
I'd say it's worth it if they're big-time inclusions like Isaac, Waluigi, or Banjo. The roster would still be over 60 characters.

I'll note that it makes sense Dixie isn't an echo.
I never said she should or could be an Echo. I think she could work as a semiclone if they wanted. And again, I don't see why she'd have to be part of a tag team. Sakurai may have envisioned her that way, but sometimes ideas change and adapt. Ultimate is a new game. It doesn't have to be a recycled version of past games with a few bonuses thrown in. Let it be its own game. Not that you can't revisit ideas of the past, but if those ideas don't fit with the current vision then they don't have to be forced into the plans.
 

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If we could stop arguing about whether or not it was a good idea to bring back everyone and actually do some newcomer speculation...That'd be great.



Soooooo...how 'bout them data mines?
I figured they would have learned their lesson from Ryu and Roy being leaked for Smash 4, but apparently not. At least the use of code names makes speculation more interesting; I don't know much about Dragon Quest (I have 8 and 9, but I haven't gotten around to playing them), so if that code name is pointing to a hero from those games, I have no idea which one it would be.
 
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