Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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I personally think that some potential newcomers, to make them true to their original appearance, would have taken more time to develop, with original behaviors and mechanics (like villager pocket), or a lot of animations (like Pokémon trainer). By being harder to make, they got put aside.

That could have been the case for Isaac, who could have gotten djinn mechanics and weird spells, Shantae, with a lot of transformations to animate, or Elma, with two different weapons thus two gameplay.

None of the newcomers we got in Ultimate have a unique mechanic or have complex animations. They also got selected for being rather easy to do.
Hey maybe that was part of why we didn't see a Rhythm Heaven character this time around, despite possibly being considered for Smash 4.

That explanation would at least help numb the pain a bit :c
 

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Hey maybe that was part of why we didn't see a Rhythm Heaven character this time around, despite possibly being considered for Smash 4.

That explanation would at least help numb the pain a bit :c
Well, rhythm-based gameplay has not translated well at all so far, as we saw with DK's Final Smash. It might be a balance issue that's preventing them from getting in. But I imagine it still is hard enough to program, so them being DLC or base in a game where they have a significantly higher amount of time to do so is possible.
 

SPEN18

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If you want proof about people not liking duck hunt, just look at this arguement here:https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76609207
I mean, just as every character has its fans, every character has its haters. A single GameFAQs thread is far from proof that the reception to Duck Hunt was primarily negative. Plus I've learned from the Isaac thread that GameFAQs is full of haters.

I think if Corrin got in any other way, at any other time, and they could have been as popular as Roy if not more so.
Roy did come back due to popular demand so I’m not sure if I would include him there.
Roy is kind of an odd duck in that most of his popularity stems from his Smash appearances. It's hard to tell how popular he'd be on his own merits because he didn't have any time out in the world before he was in Smash. Corrin is moderately popular at best among FE fans from what I've seen, and a lot of that has to do with the generally mixed reception of Fates among FE fans and poor writing turning people off to Corrin as a character. Smash hasn't really boosted Corrin's popularity like it did for Roy; now, a lot of that has to do with the backlash of "too many FE chars" and "anime swordsman bleh," but you'd think that some of this hate would wear off after a while, especially with the "Everyone is Here" theme. I feel that, in Ultimate, Corrin kinda gets lost and forgotten by a lot of people; it very much seems like he just came along with the "all vets" theme and so people aren't so vocal about him. I guess I don't have much of a point here, but I guess it'll be interesting to see what happens to Corrin's popularity as we go through Ultimate's life cycle. I'd say that if he/she really was as likeable as Roy, you'd expect the popularity to go up as people get to know what the character can actually bring to the table. If it doesn't go up too much, though, then it's probably time to cut that rope and make room for someone else.

As for my personal views on Corrin, it's kind of a "meh" character for me. I don't mind the current number of FE characters or the number sword users, but at the same time I don't have much attachment to Corrin as a character. Fates is not one of my favorite FE games, and I'd rather see a rep from another game. My first pick for an FE character would be Lyn, but if we had to get someone from Fates I'd choose Azura over Corrin and if we had to get a transformation character I'd rather see Tiki instead of Corrin.
 
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Roy is kind of an odd duck in that most of his popularity stems from his Smash appearances. It's hard to tell how popular he'd be on his own merits because he didn't have any time out in the world before he was in Smash. Corrin is moderately popular at best among FE fans from what I've seen, and a lot of that has to do with the generally mixed reception of Fates among FE fans and poor writing turning people off to Corrin as a character. Smash hasn't really boosted Corrin's popularity like it did for Roy; now, a lot of that has to do with the backlash of "too many FE chars" and "anime swordsman bleh," but you'd think that some of this hate would wear off after a while, especially with the "Everyone is Here" theme. I feel that, in Ultimate, Corrin kinda gets lost and forgotten by a lot of people; it very much seems like he just came along with the "all vets" theme and so people aren't so vocal about him. I guess I don't have much of a point here, but I guess it'll be interesting to see what happens to Corrin's popularity as we go through Ultimate's life cycle. I'd say that if he/she really was as likeable as Roy, you'd expect the popularity to go up as people get to know what the character can actually bring to the table. If it doesn't go up too much, though, then it's probably time to cut that rope and make room for someone else.

As for my personal views on Corrin, it's kind of a "meh" character for me. I don't mind the current number of FE characters or the number sword users, but at the same time I don't have much attachment to Corrin as a character. Fates is not one of my favorite FE games, and I'd rather see a rep from another game. My first pick for an FE character would be Lyn, but if we had to get someone from Fates I'd choose Azura over Corrin and if we had to get a transformation character I'd rather see Tiki instead of Corrin.
Ehh I'd say Corrin will always be at least a little tainted just from the massive backlash they got when they got in. But I've heard Roy isn't considered very likable in his own game either so I really think Corrin could have really been well liked under different circumstances.
 

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Ehh I'd say Corrin will always be at least a little tainted just from the massive backlash they got when they got in. But I've heard Roy isn't considered very likable in his own game either so I really think Corrin could have really been well liked under different circumstances.
Pretty much this. The game wasn't even out outside of Japan, so a lot of people had no way to know much of who he/she was.

Roy had a similar issue, but he was popular as a vet as is, less so his own game. It make one easy to be DLC, as Roy had noted popularity. Corrin was taking a risk in comparison. If he/she was from a game that was already worldwide, there'd be a lot better reception. Besides that, it was based upon a promotional pick, though there were other reasons. A lot of people don't like advertisement picks, since they want their favorites in and unique characters, namely on their own merits, less so for "shilling". I mean, I liked Corrin and Roy, but I can understand the issue people have with 'em due to part of why they were added to Smash.
 
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Pretty much this. The game wasn't even out outside of Japan, so a lot of people had no way to know much of who he/she was.

Roy had a similar issue, but he was popular as a vet as is, less so his own game. It make one easy to be DLC, as Roy had noted popularity. Corrin was taking a risk in comparison. If he/she was from a game that was already worldwide, there'd be a lot better reception. Besides that, it was based upon a promotional pick, though there were other reasons. A lot of people don't like advertisement picks, since they want their favorites in and unique characters, namely on their own merits, less so for "shilling". I mean, I liked Corrin and Roy, but I can understand the issue people have with 'em due to part of why they were added to Smash.
It was also a shill pick announced at the worst possible time, when anticipation was high for a ballot result from actual fan-requests.
 

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It was also a shill pick announced at the worst possible time, when anticipation was high for a ballot result from actual fan-requests.
Which is funny, since we never guaranteed or told we'd get a Ballot pick(and we didn't, since realistically Bayonetta got into the game itself well before the ballot). So yeah, miscommunication creates even more turmoil.
 
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Well, rhythm-based gameplay has not translated well at all so far, as we saw with DK's Final Smash. It might be a balance issue that's preventing them from getting in. But I imagine it still is hard enough to program, so them being DLC or base in a game where they have a significantly higher amount of time to do so is possible.
I mean, if they couldn't do it within Smash 4's development time and perhaps higher priority newcomers, maybe they had even less of a chance with Ultimate's more limited selection of newcomers, those being fan, ballot or generally popular choices and/or echoes. Like I voted for Karate Joe in the ballot, but I don't remember RH ranking any sort of high on there.
But because the Sneaky Spirit enemy was in Smash Run, it suggests the possibility that if they were working on a RH character, they might have at least made it into some important stage of development. maybe kinda like the Ice Climbers who were heavily worked on before being cut and had an enemy of their series in Smash Run anyway.
 

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I mean, if they couldn't do it within Smash 4's development time and perhaps higher priority newcomers, maybe they had even less of a chance with Ultimate's more limited selection of newcomers, those being fan, ballot or generally popular choices and/or echoes. Like I voted for Karate Joe in the ballot, but I don't remember RH ranking any sort of high on there.
But because the Sneaky Spirit enemy was in Smash Run, it suggests the possibility that if they were working on a RH character, they might have at least made it into some important stage of development. maybe kinda like the Ice Climbers who were heavily worked on before being cut and had an enemy of their series in Smash Run anyway.
Well, it's easy to conclude a RH character was worked on to some degree. We found a series icon for RH. And Gematsu noted Chorus Kids(and every character he talked about was scrapped/considered or in the game itself). It doesn't mean for sure it was CK, but I do believe they(the series) had some consideration. Sneaky Spirit could've been related to that.
 

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Ehh I'd say Corrin will always be at least a little tainted just from the massive backlash they got when they got in. But I've heard Roy isn't considered very likable in his own game either so I really think Corrin could have really been well liked under different circumstances.
Since it's a hypothetical it's kinda hard to tell how popular he could've been. But yeah, under different circumstances he'd probably have at least modest popularity. I will, however, point out that Roy is a clone, which takes some of the burden off of him.

since we never guaranteed or told we'd get a Ballot pick
Yeah this is where things get really tricky with the ballot. They never guaranteed us anything and it's their game to make, but at the same time they explicitly asked for feedback so it doesn't make much sense not to deliver.
 

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Yeah this is where things get really tricky with the ballot. They never guaranteed us anything and it's their game to make, but at the same time they explicitly asked for feedback so it doesn't make much sense not to deliver.
Except it does make perfect sense. They said it would also be used for future Smash games. Which it did. It was miscommunication. They only said they're "consider a character for Smash DLC", which is very very clear, even with the English version. People just didn't read what was actually there. Sakurai's statement on Bayonetta was done as a white lie to curb this, but dataminers already came out in public, showing she was extremely unlikely to be a ballot pick(well, moreso she wasn't chosen cause of the ballot, though she did legit score high).

There wasn't supposed to be a guarantee. Nor was there anything to deliver for Smash DLC(hell, the most we did get at best was Mii costumes, which is legitimate ballot stuff), because it was only something that had a decent chance of happening. The ballot didn't give us a single playable fighter among Smash 4. But that's why it's miscommunication. He didn't need to say anything about Bayonetta. The part about future Smash games should've been fully on the US version of the ballot too. They used Facebook to promote the fact he wanted only gaming character suggestions. It was just poorly handled for the public information. But they still did just what they said they would, which is used it for later games, and only consider them for Smash 4 DLC. It's just too bad many people very blatantly misread the clear information it gave. But sometimes suggestion boxes aren't properly explained or people refuse to read the whole thing. It had a pretty clear disclaimer that there was no guarantee nor nothing to "deliver" in any way. Just that they might add DLC based upon the ballot results. As I said earlier, the Mii costumes might actually be just that. At least some of the later ones. In fact, Ultimate's new Mii costumes were probably related to that too.
 

Zeke The Zekenator

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Corrin's situation is funny, its a character that is hated by the western fans but is one of the most popular Nintendo characters in Japan according to Nitendo Dream (I suspect female version is the most popular). We have a few characters that the Japanese audience doesn't really care about like Ridley and Little Mac, but considering how petty the smash fanbase is regarding characters they don't like, Corrin would've been hated either way even if they were on the starting roster (just like many other characters that people seem like a waste).

Anyways my two cents about the ballot. I feel that with the ballot, it is difficult to make clear statements about it and taking fan polls is a bad way to make guesses(especially since a lot of the sites have overlapping fanbases and how easy are to manipulate). Most of the characters that have been referred by Sakurai as popular in the ballot were referred that "they got a lot of votes" without specifying any place whatsoever, with the exception of Bayo who was top among "realizable" characters (realizable could mean a few different things). The comment regarding "got a lot of votes" doesn't necessarily mean that the character would've been a top request but rather that they got a significant amount of votes to be considered popular, and if that's the case, the ballot could've been merely used to see if certain characters were popular enough to implement rather than choosing based on placement.
 

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Except it does make perfect sense. They said it would also be used for future Smash games. Which it did. It was miscommunication. They only said they're "consider a character for Smash DLC", which is very very clear, even with the English version. People just didn't read what was actually there. Sakurai's statement on Bayonetta was done as a white lie to curb this, but dataminers already came out in public, showing she was extremely unlikely to be a ballot pick(well, moreso she wasn't chosen cause of the ballot, though she did legit score high).

There wasn't supposed to be a guarantee. Nor was there anything to deliver for Smash DLC(hell, the most we did get at best was Mii costumes, which is legitimate ballot stuff), because it was only something that had a decent chance of happening. The ballot didn't give us a single playable fighter among Smash 4. But that's why it's miscommunication. He didn't need to say anything about Bayonetta. The part about future Smash games should've been fully on the US version of the ballot too. They used Facebook to promote the fact he wanted only gaming character suggestions. It was just poorly handled for the public information. But they still did just what they said they would, which is used it for later games, and only consider them for Smash 4 DLC. It's just too bad many people very blatantly misread the clear information it gave. But sometimes suggestion boxes aren't properly explained or people refuse to read the whole thing. It had a pretty clear disclaimer that there was no guarantee nor nothing to "deliver" in any way. Just that they might add DLC based upon the ballot results. As I said earlier, the Mii costumes might actually be just that. At least some of the later ones. In fact, Ultimate's new Mii costumes were probably related to that too.
I mean, if you're gonna call it the "Smash Ballot" and tell people to vote on their favorite fighter, people are bound to expect that they use it (and use it seriously). Yes, it was probably intended as a massive suggestion box and yes, they never gave a guarantee. But you can't expect people to read between the lines. Most of those things like "no guarantees, guys" and "give us your suggestions" are naturally deemphasized because of the marketing stuff they have to do to get people to vote, but that's not the fans' problem. When very few ballot characters have gotten into the game as PCs (which we all know was the true grand prize; anything else is consolation), it's natural for people to be confused when they know that Nintendo knows what they want. Perhaps the blame lies on both sides in terms of miscommunicating the ballot's purpose.

They aren't obligated to give us anything and that's part of why we shouldn't be throwing any hate or resentment their way. But if a mother asks her kid what they want for dinner and they say "I want meatloaf and broccoli," she doesn't cook them chicken and carrots unless there's a really good reason why she can't make the meatloaf or broccoli, like not having the right ingredients. Now, you might say that certain characters weren't feasible, but imagine that the kid gives the mother a long list of mostly reasonable suggestions not including the chicken or carrots. Maybe she can't make the meatloaf or broccoli, but it'd be odd if she couldn't make anything else the child wants, or if she had to ask for dinner suggestions 50 times before she finally agreed to one. It'd be even more odd if she never gave a reason for rejecting the child's suggestions. If the mother just wanted to give the kid chicken, she could've done so without asking the kid at all, and it'd be just fine. If the kid just kept suggesting a bunch of desserts, maybe then the mother would just go ahead and cook the chicken and carrots. But once you ask someone what they want, you've put power in their hands. You're telling them that you want them involved in the process, and most people will take that to heart. So yeah, I don't think that anger and outrage are the right responses to not getting stuff from the ballot, but I can see why people would be a bit confused by choices like Incineroar and Piranha Plant when Nintendo knows what's in demand.

Generally, there are a few barriers to clear for any character, ballot or otherwise, such as third party rights, feasibility, and a certain threshold of notability/iconicness. But really there's very few reasons to reject a "suggestion" if it's a gaming character that was well-known enough to garner a large number of votes. Smash is one example where I think the community largely has it right in terms of which characters have the credentials to be in the game; Nintendo sometimes has trouble taking off its marketing lens for awhile and seeing why certain characters are such big requests.
 

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I mean, if you're gonna call it the "Smash Ballot" and tell people to vote on their favorite fighter, people are bound to expect that they use it (and use it seriously). Yes, it was probably intended as a massive suggestion box and yes, they never gave a guarantee. But you can't expect people to read between the lines. Most of those things like "no guarantees, guys" and "give us your suggestions" are naturally deemphasized because of the marketing stuff they have to do to get people to vote, but that's not the fans' problem. When very few ballot characters have gotten into the game as PCs (which we all know was the true grand prize; anything else is consolation), it's natural for people to be confused when they know that Nintendo knows what they want. Perhaps the blame lies on both sides in terms of miscommunicating the ballot's purpose.
I never said it didn't lie on both sides. People read a clear statement poorly, but Sakurai/Iwata/Nintendo didn't give all the information to every region. Also, again, nowhere did the ballot say it would have one winner. That's a pretty clear misreading on a lot of people's parts. We all know it was a suggestion box in practice and got multiple characters in.

They aren't obligated to give us anything and that's part of why we shouldn't be throwing any hate or resentment their way. But if a mother asks her kid what they want for dinner and they say "I want meatloaf and broccoli," she doesn't cook them chicken and carrots unless there's a really good reason why she can't make the meatloaf or broccoli, like not having the right ingredients. Now, you might say that certain characters weren't feasible, but imagine that the kid gives the mother a long list of mostly reasonable suggestions not including the chicken or carrots. Maybe she can't make the meatloaf or broccoli, but it'd be odd if she couldn't make anything else the child wants, or if she had to ask for dinner suggestions 50 times before she finally agreed to one. It'd be even more odd if she never gave a reason for rejecting the child's suggestions. If the mother just wanted to give the kid chicken, she could've done so without asking the kid at all, and it'd be just fine. If the kid just kept suggesting a bunch of desserts, maybe then the mother would just go ahead and cook the chicken and carrots. But once you ask someone what they want, you've put power in their hands. You're telling them that you want them involved in the process, and most people will take that to heart. So yeah, I don't think that anger and outrage are the right responses to not getting stuff from the ballot, but I can see why people would be a bit confused by choices like Incineroar and Piranha Plant when Nintendo knows what's in demand.
To be honest, this seems stretching it at this point. They were told it was not a guarantee it would get the character in. That's "they'll be considered means". People are just mad that... they only considered characters just like they said they would. It's time to honestly get over it and just accept it wasn't what they thought it was. There's kind of no excuse at this point anymore.

Generally, there are a few barriers to clear for any character, ballot or otherwise, such as third party rights, feasibility, and a certain threshold of notability/iconicness. But really there's very few reasons to reject a "suggestion" if it's a gaming character that was well-known enough to garner a large number of votes. Smash is one example where I think the community largely has it right in terms of which characters have the credentials to be in the game; Nintendo sometimes has trouble taking off its marketing lens for awhile and seeing why certain characters are such big requests.
And Sakurai also clearly chooses some due to various circumstances. Nintendo didn't choose the base roster whatsoever. They were involved with negotiations with 3rd parties, but that's kind of it. The game was pretty much decided upon almost entirely by the actual team working on it(just with the negotiations with other stuff deciding a few things that the development team can't outright. I.E. They can't choose a character without permission. So basic "duh" kind of stuff). Also, again, we don't know why so many suggestions didn't become playable characters. We know the game had an extremely low development time, and is rushed to hell. Some were considered, and didn't make it into the project plan. For whatever reason.

And many characters require a lot of work to make work right. Bowser Jr. and Shulk barely made it in, same with Lucario. They required a crapload of work. None of the Smash Ultimate Newcomers are nearly as complicated as either of them in comparison, due to already having previous work done on them or being far more simply with their mechanics(So after Inkling, and maybe Ken, you don't have anyone with high-programming required mechanics. Incineroar isn't even that hard to get. It's nothing more than a thing where he auto-taunts a special way after performing a move. This isn't a big deal to program. And he has a more unique mechanic than some). The rest were echos or semi-clones among the base roster and had no majorly notable mechanic to begin with. Ridley's hardest thing to make work was his Meta Ridley costume. Despite this, they had to work hard to make him balanced, which took more time. Basically? No, they didn't have time for other ballot characters. They already had 5 unique newcomers, and only two with any major mechanic, and 2 that required a bit more work, along with a bunch of Echoes and a Semi-Clone that's very glitchy. There's no reason to believe they had any real time for anyone else. It wasn't happening. There was nobody else super easy to add anymore, as they all would require a lot of work to make remotely unique. Unless you wanted Isaac as a Shulk clone, anyway.
 

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To be honest, this seems stretching it at this point.
How so? Maybe not the best analogy; I thought of it quickly as a way to put things in a different context. But the main point was that asking someone what they want is something that's hard to go back on and equally difficult to ignore.

It's time to honestly get over it and just accept it wasn't what they thought it was.
I mean, personally I'm over it. It's not like missing out on a character I like is gonna kill me; I speculate on and advocate for characters for fun. I love the game, but I think it could've been much better. I'm not offended by Nintendo or Sakurai, nor am I really angry or upset, just a bit confused and of the opinion that some things should've been done differently. It does kinda stink that a lot of people felt like their suggestions weren't taken seriously, though. I don't think people are mad that their choices were only considered and not automatically granted access to the roster as much as they are mad that they feel like Sakurai only seriously considered the choices that he wanted to consider.

We know the game had an extremely low development time
Well, the project plan was in late 2015 to early 2016, so they had almost three years to work on the game, which is comparable to other Smash games. It is pretty rushed in many respects, but it's not like Melee.

Nintendo didn't choose the base roster whatsoever.
Oops yeah, Nintendo doesn't choose the base roster. Sakurai's choices often do kind of bend to their marketing wishes it seems, though, even if they don't have to do so.

And many characters require a lot of work to make work right. Bowser Jr. and Shulk barely made it in, same with Lucario. They required a crapload of work
It's been well documented that each unique takes a ton of work. And every game is gonna have characters that barely make it, since they always plan to include as many as possible.

No, they didn't have time for other ballot characters. They already had 5 unique newcomers, and only two with any major mechanic, and 2 that required a bit more work, along with a bunch of Echoes and a Semi-Clone that's very glitchy. There's no reason to believe they had any real time for anyone else. It wasn't happening. There was nobody else super easy to add anymore, as they all would require a lot of work to make remotely unique. Unless you wanted Isaac as a Shulk clone, anyway.
I hope that you don't think that I'm expecting newcomers to randomly appear out of thin air. No, if they cut a handful of vets then they'd have time for a few more more big-time requests. I'm of the opinion that this would have been better overall.

Besides, "Everyone is Here" is really risky in the sense that one vet having issues could derail a lot of the game; they had to really know what they were doing, and thankfully they did for the most part (although you could argue that they didn't quite know what they were doing since they ended up rushing the game).
 

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How so? Maybe not the best analogy; I thought of it quickly as a way to put things in a different context. But the main point was that asking someone what they want is something that's hard to go back on and equally difficult to ignore.
Your analogy has some flaws with it. The actual context is "give us some suggestions and we will think on them." Your analogy assumes they're asking for exactly what they want. No, they're asking for ideas and straightout telling them we may not use them. Just put in the more positive version of of "we'll think on it".

I mean, personally I'm over it. It's not like missing out on a character I like is gonna kill me; I speculate on and advocate for characters for fun. I love the game, but I think it could've been much better. I'm not offended by Nintendo or Sakurai, nor am I really angry or upset, just a bit confused and of the opinion that some things should've been done differently. It does kinda stink that a lot of people felt like their suggestions weren't taken seriously, though. I don't think people are mad that their choices were only considered and not automatically granted access to the roster as much as they are mad that they feel like Sakurai only seriously considered the choices that he wanted to consider.
It honestly couldn't have been much better. They didn't have time to do so. They didn't even have time to implement the Homerun Contest, which still isn't super hard, but it has to take into account every launch multiplier, and that's still time.

Well, the project plan was in late 2015 to early 2016, so they had almost three years to work on the game, which is comparable to other Smash games. It is pretty rushed in many respects, but it's not like Melee.
Early 2016 makes it 2 years. That's how long it was actually developed for even then. It was completed at the end of 2018. It was nowhere close to 3 years. You're doing your math wrong.

Oops yeah, Nintendo doesn't choose the base roster. Sakurai's choices often do kind of bend to their marketing wishes it seems, though, even if they don't have to do so.
Indeed.

It's been well documented that each unique takes a ton of work. And every game is gonna have characters that barely make it, since they always plan to include as many as possible.
The point is the vets didn't take nearly as much time as any single unique character. We wouldn't have gotten anything more than easy clones/echoes/semi-clones at best. That's all there was time for. Or maybe a few modes returned. At best. The reason for 11 newcomers is they had barely 2 years, and only 5 of them are actually unique, and only 2 require an extremely high amount of playtesting at best. Isabelle should've been tested more, but she still mostly functioned enough. They couldn't delay it. Every single vet has old data. You weren't going to get much. Now, if PT didn't come back, we might've gotten one unique newcomer or two at best. But the rest had more than enough data and didn't have glaring technical issues to work through like Pokemon Switch. Thus, the rest of the returning vets don't require as much time. They're more or less lightly around the time it might take an Echo, perhaps. Or more, but not much. Though considering the fact the animations were awful for a very long time till we saw the final demo and soon release, it's clear they were pushing for time even with all the vets back. And that's ones like Wolf, who had most of his work done for him anyway. Even Chrom looked awful, and he was an easy echo. Basically? They didn't have enough time to do more, so I'd argue we got the best case scenario here. I'd rather just have the full roster than lose characters only. And I'm giving the benefit of the doubt he would've added a few more newcomers. Also, PP was started early on, so he already had one plan tucked away.

I hope that you don't think that I'm expecting newcomers to randomly appear out of thin air. No, if they cut a handful of vets then they'd have time for a few more more big-time requests. I'm of the opinion that this would have been better overall.
A few more isn't even that possible. All of those veterans have previous data that was actually put into Smash 3DS. They all didn't take that long. 3 is already pushing it for more newcomers. Especially unique ones. Echoes or clones/semi-clones are the only way you'd get 3 or more realistically.

Besides, "Everyone is Here" is really risky in the sense that one vet having issues could derail a lot of the game; they had to really know what they were doing, and thankfully they did for the most part (although you could argue that they didn't quite know what they were doing since they ended up rushing the game).
They definitely knew and weren't taking a risk. Smash sells on characters, not modes, first. They knew they could patch stuff. They were going to rush the game no matter if they had a ton of veterans or not. It was 2 years, with still a severely huge roster more than double Melee's. There was no time for all those requests. Every echo was pretty easy or fit the narrative too. Isabelle just barely made it in(and wouldn't have if it weren't for Villager, because she needed a full moveset to be cloned from. She's very lucky to get in. There's no way they would've had time for a more proper unique one). Incineroar was started on late due to not existing yet. PP was last minute worked on for DLC(he may have been base at first, but time made that impossible), Inkling required a ton of work. Simon was actually pretty simple but unique, so didn't take nearly as much time as some, and got an Echo too. Ridley and K. Rool are both notably unique but pretty simplistic in a lot of what they do. Most of it appears to be playtesting moreso than just getting the major model animations done. This is why I mentioned mechanics. Mechanics are what make characters hard to implement in itself. And it's more than just "oh, this move does fire, and this does holy damage". Simon's mechanic is his whip, but he's a very regular Smash fighter akin to Mario, with no hard mechanic. Nothing that makes programming severely difficult like they had with Bowser Jr.(due to his mech and alts) and Shulk(as they have to account for every single stat change and how it affects him. It's a balance thing and still was difficult to program as they implied. Lucario was the same thing, taking a full year to finish. Most characters take six months).

Basically? No, we would've barely gotten 1 or 2 max if we left the veterans alone, at least for unique guys. Anybody else that's a clone, semi-clone, or echo are far easier. And yet we didn't say many obvious Echoes like Shadow. Or Dixie. Etc. It just shows how little time they had. I'm just trying to help you understand you're actually asking for more than what was possible. We would've been lucky to get 2 unique newcomers max besides the amount, and that's being reasonable. In fact, it would've made more sense to keep the Smash 4 characters, return Snake and Wolf, and keep the other modes in. At least then they could finish it. They already had too many newcomers to work on even regardless of the veterans, and it's not rocket science they needed more time.
 

SPEN18

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Your analogy has some flaws with it. The actual context is "give us some suggestions and we will think on them." Your analogy assumes they're asking for exactly what they want. No, they're asking for ideas and straightout telling them we may not use them. Just put in the more positive version of of "we'll think on it".
I see that point, but they're still asking for feedback and fan involvement in the process. They also clearly did want to know exactly what people wanted, as they asked people to pick one single character that they would like to be in the game. That's pretty specific, much more so than just letting people write a bunch of character ideas into a text box. The space they gave to type was there for people to justify the single character they picked. I do think that a large amount of the disappointment surrounding ballot characters stems from the sense that many were not considered as seriously as they should have been, and the fact that almost everything they pulled from the ballot happened to be what suited them. It's fine if they liked certain ideas better than others, but choosing based on their own views of the characters is not really using the ballot as much as it is confirmation bias. They made relatively few concessions for many of these highly-voted characters.


Early 2016 makes it 2 years. That's how long it was actually developed for even then. It was completed at the end of 2018. It was nowhere close to 3 years. You're doing your math wrong.
Early 2016 to early 2018 is two full years. Then they had from there until late 2018. So it's between two and three. If you count from the first draft of the project plan in December 2015 it's three years, but I don't think they started work proper until later drafts of the project plan, so it's not quite three years; however, I think it's close enough to say "almost three years." It does depend a bit on when the project plan was fully finished, though, I'll admit. "Almost" is admittedly a bit vague, but really the dev time for this game wasn't so different from other Smash games; they also had stuff they could more easily implement due to coming off the heels of the Wii U. And besides, if they didn't give themselves enough time then that's probably on them.

The point is the vets didn't take nearly as much time as any single unique character. We wouldn't have gotten anything more than easy clones/echoes/semi-clones at best. That's all there was time for. Or maybe a few modes returned. At best. The reason for 11 newcomers is they had barely 2 years, and only 5 of them are actually unique, and only 2 require an extremely high amount of playtesting at best. Isabelle should've been tested more, but she still mostly functioned enough. They couldn't delay it. Every single vet has old data. You weren't going to get much. Now, if PT didn't come back, we might've gotten one unique newcomer or two at best. But the rest had more than enough data and didn't have glaring technical issues to work through like Pokemon Switch. Thus, the rest of the returning vets don't require as much time. They're more or less lightly around the time it might take an Echo, perhaps. Or more, but not much. Though considering the fact the animations were awful for a very long time till we saw the final demo and soon release, it's clear they were pushing for time even with all the vets back. And that's ones like Wolf, who had most of his work done for him anyway. Even Chrom looked awful, and he was an easy echo. Basically? They didn't have enough time to do more, so I'd argue we got the best case scenario here. I'd rather just have the full roster than lose characters only. And I'm giving the benefit of the doubt he would've added a few more newcomers. Also, PP was started early on, so he already had one plan tucked away.
They absolutely took a significant amount of time, just less than fully unique newcomers. If it was that easy, the ability to transfer stuff over from the Wii U game would've given them time for closer to a normal number of newcomers. And again, I'm not suggesting a "one vet for one unique" case; I still think it's better if we lost a fairly large handful of vets in order to get a few big-time inclusions. I already outlined what it could've looked like in this case. Pichu, Young Link, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Doctor Mario, any number of Echoes like Dark Pit, Corrin, maybe one or two of ICs/Wolf/Snake, maybe Roy, maybe a less popular Pokémon like Jigglypuff or Greninja, maybe one third party if they didn't wanna work so hard for licensing, and perhaps a few more were options to be axed. Of course, I'm not suggesting that all of these characters should be cut, and some of these I actually do like and think have earned a spot. But really, if they weren't locked into "Everyone is Here" there were plenty of characters they could have dropped in order to add newcomers. They had plenty of fine options for cuts that would've been met with limited backlash, and vets that were already cut in past games would have less backlash than they were willing to take the first go-round, as way fewer people would've expected them back. And again, it's not like the roster would be tiny in this scenario; they'd still likely be over 60 characters, which is still pretty "Ultimate" (or "Special"). They could have also been less ambitious with Spirits mode, as I don't think they were gonna measure up to SSE without the fancy cutscenes and involved story that so many people loved.

They all didn't take that long. 3 is already pushing it for more newcomers. Especially unique ones. Echoes or clones/semi-clones are the only way you'd get 3 or more realistically.
It depends on how many they cut. And the vets that weren't in 4 absolutely took significant time to develop; it shows in the lack of new content throughout the game. There's little variety in the game modes, Spirits mode is a glorified event match with a few RPG elements, Trophies needed to be cut in exchange for PNGs, and we got a low number of newcomers. I don't think 2-3 uniques in exchange for maybe 4-6 vets is that unrealistic (4-6 is kinda just throwing out numbers; I don't know exactly how many it'd take and it depends on which characters get cut, but I doubt we'd see a drastic roster downsize). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that there's been evidence of certain vets like Pichu or Wolf having data in Smash 3DS, and even if they do, I'm not sure that it would transfer so easily onto the Switch and I doubt that they were anywhere close to completion given that Bowser Jr. and a couple others barely made it in the game. Even clones have to be properly balanced and animated. They take time.

They definitely knew and weren't taking a risk. Smash sells on characters, not modes, first. They knew they could patch stuff. They were going to rush the game no matter if they had a ton of veterans or not. It was 2 years, with still a severely huge roster more than double Melee's. There was no time for all those requests. Every echo was pretty easy or fit the narrative too. Isabelle just barely made it in(and wouldn't have if it weren't for Villager, because she needed a full moveset to be cloned from. She's very lucky to get in. There's no way they would've had time for a more proper unique one). Incineroar was started on late due to not existing yet. PP was last minute worked on for DLC(he may have been base at first, but time made that impossible), Inkling required a ton of work. Simon was actually pretty simple but unique, so didn't take nearly as much time as some, and got an Echo too. Ridley and K. Rool are both notably unique but pretty simplistic in a lot of what they do. Most of it appears to be playtesting moreso than just getting the major model animations done. This is why I mentioned mechanics. Mechanics are what make characters hard to implement in itself. And it's more than just "oh, this move does fire, and this does holy damage". Simon's mechanic is his whip, but he's a very regular Smash fighter akin to Mario, with no hard mechanic. Nothing that makes programming severely difficult like they had with Bowser Jr.(due to his mech and alts) and Shulk(as they have to account for every single stat change and how it affects him. It's a balance thing and still was difficult to program as they implied. Lucario was the same thing, taking a full year to finish. Most characters take six months).

Basically? No, we would've barely gotten 1 or 2 max if we left the veterans alone, at least for unique guys. Anybody else that's a clone, semi-clone, or echo are far easier. And yet we didn't say many obvious Echoes like Shadow. Or Dixie. Etc. It just shows how little time they had. I'm just trying to help you understand you're actually asking for more than what was possible. We would've been lucky to get 2 unique newcomers max besides the amount, and that's being reasonable. In fact, it would've made more sense to keep the Smash 4 characters, return Snake and Wolf, and keep the other modes in. At least then they could finish it. They already had too many newcomers to work on even regardless of the veterans, and it's not rocket science they needed more time.
I didn't really argue about modes; if anything, I'd be willing to cut down on Spirits mode to help with newcomers. I also won't pretend to know everything that goes into developing a character, but based on what we've seen and been told, any character, even an Echo, takes significant dev time. If you're gonna use the mechanics argument, then certain vets that they brought back have unique mechanics that could potentially take more time to balance and/or develop, such as Pichu's self-damaging gimmick (not hard to program but potentially tricky to balance, especially given how terribly they did it in Melee), Ice Climbers being a duo with two characters to control, and Pokémon Trainer needing to be balanced around the ability to switch between three characters. Even if these things were developed and balanced in past games, Ultimate is an entirely new game with plenty of new mechanics and cast members. People talk a lot about how different a lot of the vets feel compared to past games; that's indicative of the work they put in to update them. Again, I'm no expert on exactly how long these things would take, and the preceding examples were just to give an idea, but I wouldn't downplay the sheer amount of effort it took to bring everyone back. And besides, 2 unique newcomers would probably be all it would take to make a lot of people happy with minimal backlash for the stuff that it replaced.

And yeah, they probably did need more time. It looked like they were banking on Ultimate carrying their 2018 holiday season, so that kind of cornered them. 2019 seems to be pretty loaded for Nintendo whereas 2018 was much more sparse. Part of this was Yoshi and Fire Emblem being delayed, but they probably could've planned things better outside of that to allow for a Smash delay if it was deemed necessary.
 

Chinderblock

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I see that point, but they're still asking for feedback and fan involvement in the process. They also clearly did want to know exactly what people wanted, as they asked people to pick one single character that they would like to be in the game. That's pretty specific, much more so than just letting people write a bunch of character ideas into a text box. The space they gave to type was there for people to justify the single character they picked. I do think that a large amount of the disappointment surrounding ballot characters stems from the sense that many were not considered as seriously as they should have been, and the fact that almost everything they pulled from the ballot happened to be what suited them. It's fine if they liked certain ideas better than others, but choosing based on their own views of the characters is not really using the ballot as much as it is confirmation bias. They made relatively few concessions for many of these highly-voted characters.
It's not really "feedback". It's just asking for cool suggestions and maybe your idea could come to fruition. Feedback is on an actual product. They weren't asking for issues with the gameplay. That wasn't remotely the point of it.

And they shouldn't use the ballot alone as is. That was smart. Reality is, votes aren't everything. All those votes do is prove the character is worth considering. What matters is the ideas given. And many people don't give useful ideas. They just want their character in cause that's cool. That's not very useful with making movesets. At all.

Early 2016 to early 2018 is two full years. Then they had from there until late 2018. So it's between two and three. If you count from the first draft of the project plan in December 2015 it's three years, but I don't think they started work proper until later drafts of the project plan, so it's not quite three years; however, I think it's close enough to say "almost three years." It does depend a bit on when the project plan was fully finished, though, I'll admit. "Almost" is admittedly a bit vague, but really the dev time for this game wasn't so different from other Smash games; they also had stuff they could more easily implement due to coming off the heels of the Wii U. And besides, if they didn't give themselves enough time then that's probably on them.
No, it's around 2 years. They started development around close to December 2015/January 2016, and had 2 literal years to make it. They released it in 2018 years. There is no "three years" of relevance. The project plan is not development. It's nothing more than ideas only. All it could be used for at best is getting licenses. The development never starts till the project plan is finished. 2 years is all they had to work on that. They figured out who was impossible by that time, and that's why they weren't on the project plan. Isaac is one of those cases. I'm sure he was considered. But he couldn't have been on the project plan(which is the final version that determines who is in and who is not).

They absolutely took a significant amount of time, just less than fully unique newcomers. If it was that easy, the ability to transfer stuff over from the Wii U game would've given them time for closer to a normal number of newcomers. And again, I'm not suggesting a "one vet for one unique" case; I still think it's better if we lost a fairly large handful of vets in order to get a few big-time inclusions. I already outlined what it could've looked like in this case. Pichu, Young Link, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Doctor Mario, any number of Echoes like Dark Pit, Corrin, maybe one or two of ICs/Wolf/Snake, maybe Roy, maybe a less popular Pokémon like Jigglypuff or Greninja, maybe one third party if they didn't wanna work so hard for licensing, and perhaps a few more were options to be axed. Of course, I'm not suggesting that all of these characters should be cut, and some of these I actually do like and think have earned a spot. But really, if they weren't locked into "Everyone is Here" there were plenty of characters they could have dropped in order to add newcomers. They had plenty of fine options for cuts that would've been met with limited backlash, and vets that were already cut in past games would have less backlash than they were willing to take the first go-round, as way fewer people would've expected them back. And again, it's not like the roster would be tiny in this scenario; they'd still likely be over 60 characters, which is still pretty "Ultimate" (or "Special"). They could have also been less ambitious with Spirits mode, as I don't think they were gonna measure up to SSE without the fancy cutscenes and involved story that so many people loved.
Actually, yes, it was easy to transfer a lot of the data over. The only data that was too old was Melee's trying to bring it to 3DS. 3DS had full out data. It wasn't nearly as long, it's just stuff that were difficult mechanics to get working that took up the workload. Despite this, they got it done in 2 years, and had no real time for other stuff.

They didn't have "plenty of character" options. That had a very tiny select few. Characters don't get in on popularity. He needs ideas. And time. He doesn't have time for a ton of these suggestions or any way to implement them. As I said before with the ballot, it was rare people wrote a lot of how the character should play, which is what Sakurai needs to even make a character work. I go back to Isabelle. She's a perfect example of a character who wouldn't have worked if it weren't for her semi-clone status. He had no ideas how to make her more unique. He just felt she should be a bit different due to having a different personality. She was ineligible as an Echo due to the wrong body proportions.

Also, the tiny amount of backlash? A huge part of the fanbase loves the fact everyone is here. Only a minority was pissed off as their return. A minority he isn't going to listen to anyway. Jigglypuff is extremely popular, actually. Greninja is too. Incineroar is the only Pokemon to have a small bit of popularity at best. Even Pichu had tons of it. But they're all popular regardless. As is Pokemon Trainer, since his design is based upon the actual character, Red, despite being a generic avatar. ...Which is weird cause for some reason Leaf got a mention, but it seems like that was specifically to promote Pokemon Let's Go and nothing more.


It depends on how many they cut. And the vets that weren't in 4 absolutely took significant time to develop; it shows in the lack of new content throughout the game. There's little variety in the game modes, Spirits mode is a glorified event match with a few RPG elements, Trophies needed to be cut in exchange for PNGs, and we got a low number of newcomers. I don't think 2-3 uniques in exchange for maybe 4-6 vets is that unrealistic (4-6 is kinda just throwing out numbers; I don't know exactly how many it'd take and it depends on which characters get cut, but I doubt we'd see a drastic roster downsize). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that there's been evidence of certain vets like Pichu or Wolf having data in Smash 3DS, and even if they do, I'm not sure that it would transfer so easily onto the Switch and I doubt that they were anywhere close to completion given that Bowser Jr. and a couple others barely made it in the game. Even clones have to be properly balanced and animated. They take time.
It kind of doesn't. Every character that came back that wasn't in 4 had playable character data they could work with. They all were pretty easy to come back, they just took time. Not a lot of extra work. They're very easy to make work.

I didn't really argue about modes; if anything, I'd be willing to cut down on Spirits mode to help with newcomers. I also won't pretend to know everything that goes into developing a character, but based on what we've seen and been told, any character, even an Echo, takes significant dev time. If you're gonna use the mechanics argument, then certain vets that they brought back have unique mechanics that could potentially take more time to balance and/or develop, such as Pichu's self-damaging gimmick (not hard to program but potentially tricky to balance, especially given how terribly they did it in Melee), Ice Climbers being a duo with two characters to control, and Pokémon Trainer needing to be balanced around the ability to switch between three characters. Even if these things were developed and balanced in past games, Ultimate is an entirely new game with plenty of new mechanics and cast members. People talk a lot about how different a lot of the vets feel compared to past games; that's indicative of the work they put in to update them. Again, I'm no expert on exactly how long these things would take, and the preceding examples were just to give an idea, but I wouldn't downplay the sheer amount of effort it took to bring everyone back. And besides, 2 unique newcomers would probably be all it would take to make a lot of people happy with minimal backlash for the stuff that it replaced.
They didn't really balance Pichu's ability either. It's pretty much the same overall. It just makes him better due to Rage already existing. He was never balanced around it much. He's just a bit stronger than Pikachu in return.

You're also forgetting that Smash Ultimate has different physics and changes Brawl and Melee don't.

But all that proves is they did more fine-tuning of them, not that they were hard to make alone. Like, the actual real new content was the Final Smashes in almost every case. The rest were easy retools. Young Link has Toon Link's moveset retooled this time for a reason.

And yeah, they probably did need more time. It looked like they were banking on Ultimate carrying their 2018 holiday season, so that kind of cornered them. 2019 seems to be pretty loaded for Nintendo whereas 2018 was much more sparse. Part of this was Yoshi and Fire Emblem being delayed, but they probably could've planned things better outside of that to allow for a Smash delay if it was deemed necessary.
They needed till 2019 to really add anything else, honestly.

Oooh, snazzy new thread title. I like it.

If it’s been this for months and I’ve only just now noticed it feel free to mock me mercilessly.
Eh, we stopped discussing DLC stuff here a lot, to be fair. It had different topics here and there. Like people taking the ballot's intention wrong, or how Sakurai does not choose based upon popularity alone, etc. Those went on for a while.

Regardless, there's a ton of potential DLC, though I'm already prepared for Erdrick(and the less likely Slime if it's indeed DQ-related for what Brave means), and if we're getting Microsoft content, Minecraft content will appear in some way. There's no way they'll avoid capitalizing on one of the most successful franchises that literally appeared a decade ago. You don't often see an Indie game become that iconic very often. In fact, I don't think any Indie ever got that much of an iconic status beyond it. Steve is harder to say. If he isn't playable, Mii Costume.
 

SPEN18

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And they shouldn't use the ballot alone as is. That was smart. Reality is, votes aren't everything. All those votes do is prove the character is worth considering. What matters is the ideas given. And many people don't give useful ideas. They just want their character in cause that's cool. That's not very useful with making movesets. At all.
I mean yeah, I don't think they should just blindly include any character that gets votes. But in this case I think that most of the big-time requests were characters that had good reasons to be in the game and very few reasons to be disregarded. Sure, plenty of people don't give useful ideas. But according to almost all of the evidence we have, a lot of people did give useful ideas, just not the ideas that fit Sakurai's fancy.

No, it's around 2 years. They started development around close to December 2015/January 2016, and had 2 literal years to make it. They released it in 2018 years. There is no "three years" of relevance. The project plan is not development. It's nothing more than ideas only. All it could be used for at best is getting licenses. The development never starts till the project plan is finished. 2 years is all they had to work on that. They figured out who was impossible by that time, and that's why they weren't on the project plan. Isaac is one of those cases. I'm sure he was considered. But he couldn't have been on the project plan(which is the final version that determines who is in and who is not).
If they started in January 2016, then two years from then is January 2018. The game was released in December 2018, though it was finished a bit earlier than that. So like I said, it's not quite three years but it's in that ballpark, as January 2019 would've been three years.

But really, we're not gonna get much out of arguing about this; they had a decent amount of time to work on the game but it was obviously not enough to do everything they wanted.

They didn't have "plenty of character" options. That had a very tiny select few.
They can add whichever Nintendo characters they like, and plenty of third parties. Only very unique circumstances would truly prevent them from adding a character that they really wanted to add, assuming they could get the IP rights and they had enough time. They had options besides bringing all the vets back.

You're also forgetting that Smash Ultimate has different physics and changes Brawl and Melee don't.

But all that proves is they did more fine-tuning of them, not that they were hard to make alone. Like, the actual real new content was the Final Smashes in almost every case. The rest were easy retools. Young Link has Toon Link's moveset retooled this time for a reason.
Wouldn't Ultimate's different physics and changes make it harder to transfer over the vets?

I'm also not suggesting that just clones be cut, although they make up a significant portion of those who would most likely be on the chopping block.

Also, I still doubt how much the 3DS data would've helped them. Either way, the content in the game is indicative of the high amount of effort it took to bring everyone back.

They needed till 2019 to really add anything else, honestly.
That was kinda the point; if they had organized their releases better to not lean solely on Smash for late 2018, it could've been easier to stomach a delay. I can see why they would try to bank on Smash for this season, though.
 

Chinderblock

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I mean yeah, I don't think they should just blindly include any character that gets votes. But in this case I think that most of the big-time requests were characters that had good reasons to be in the game and very few reasons to be disregarded. Sure, plenty of people don't give useful ideas. But according to almost all of the evidence we have, a lot of people did give useful ideas, just not the ideas that fit Sakurai's fancy.
...We have no actual evidence of who wrote what in the Smash Ballot. Maybe a few people posted some screenshots, but let's not pretend we know the majority of how the votes were. There's way too many "cause they're cool votes" and that's kind of obvious since it was open to everyone.

[quuote]If they started in January 2016, then two years from then is January 2018. The game was released in December 2018, though it was finished a bit earlier than that. So like I said, it's not quite three years but it's in that ballpark, as January 2019 would've been three years.[/quote]
...Wow. I won't lie, first time I did math that poorly. But it also goes to show they clearly didn't have enough time, so cutting anyone wouldn't have done anything.

But really, we're not gonna get much out of arguing about this; they had a decent amount of time to work on the game but it was obviously not enough to do everything they wanted.
They cut almost every mode. It's safe to say they weren't going to cut down any more just to add a few stragglers that'd require even more of a delay. They couldn't afford it.

They can add whichever Nintendo characters they like, and plenty of third parties. Only very unique circumstances would truly prevent them from adding a character that they really wanted to add, assuming they could get the IP rights and they had enough time. They had options besides bringing all the vets back.
Not really no. You're still making this assumption they had a giant list of characters. He narrows them down heavily with many different reasons. Let's review the reaction Nintendo appears to have had from Isaac not being in. They didn't even know he was that wanted. Now, if this is true? Yeah, he was considered(maybe) but not taken that seriously nor was a viable option.

Wouldn't Ultimate's different physics and changes make it harder to transfer over the vets?
No. They had fully functioning movesets. It just means that they require a bit more work than, say, literally making Melee II by transferring over all the Melee characters and adding a few new ones. It's not nearly that much work if they have fully playable movesets.

I'm also not suggesting that just clones be cut, although they make up a significant portion of those who would most likely be on the chopping block.
They're literally the easiest to make. That's why they were brought back as well. Even Wolf borrowed more than half his assets from Fox. It's why he was actually a semi-clone.

Also, I still doubt how much the 3DS data would've helped them. Either way, the content in the game is indicative of the high amount of effort it took to bring everyone back.
Actually, the highest content are literally pictures. The only thing they said was made from scratch was all the stages. They used assets to recreate characters faster. How do you think they were able to get over 60 characters done in 3 years? By using the previous game's data. The 3DS later had the past Brawl data scrubbed. To note, Sakurai cut Pokemon Trainer from Smash 4 during development. This means the data was still there. They took shortcuts. In addition, he's used the previous data of every game to start working on the new game. While we can't confirm he took the other 3DS data from development, there's a strong chance he did.

That was kinda the point; if they had organized their releases better to not lean solely on Smash for late 2018, it could've been easier to stomach a delay. I can see why they would try to bank on Smash for this season, though.
The delay wouldn't have worked even then. They already had a clear goal set in mind and 3 years, which is the normal amount of time, to do so. The only thing they needed to do was more playtesting and bring back modes at best. People aren't going to wait around forever when they have a solid game right in front of them. Really, the biggest complaint about the game is the lack of single player content, which even 4 did better(and that was its biggest complaint too).
 

SPEN18

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...We have no actual evidence of who wrote what in the Smash Ballot.
Not exactly, no, but we have at least a fair idea. Proof? No. Evidence? For sure.

But it also goes to show they clearly didn't have enough time, so cutting anyone wouldn't have done anything.
But the roster is all decided at the beginning. So if they thought that they'd have time for all the vets, then they'd probably think the same thing if they had planned a couple more newcomers instead. If the newcomers they planned were far enough along, maybe one or two would've been pushed to DLC, which is better than not at all.

Not really no. You're still making this assumption they had a giant list of characters. He narrows them down heavily with many different reasons. Let's review the reaction Nintendo appears to have had from Isaac not being in. They didn't even know he was that wanted. Now, if this is true? Yeah, he was considered(maybe) but not taken that seriously nor was a viable option.
Of course he narrows it down. But if a character is removed from consideration, it's not necessarily because they aren't possible; Sakurai might just not deem them important or unique enough. Again, maybe Isaac in particular was possible and maybe he wasn't. But it's extremely unlikely that they couldn't find a couple of top vote-getters that could work.

They're literally the easiest to make. That's why they were brought back as well. Even Wolf borrowed more than half his assets from Fox. It's why he was actually a semi-clone.
Again, it's not one vet for one unique. It's a few vets or a handful (depending on how clone-ish they are) for a unique. They still have to be balanced and updated. And even full uniques can borrow some assets, just not nearly as many. Sakurai puts a ton of work into each character, clone or not.

I will say that when "Everyone is Here" was first announced I was thinking that the vets didn't take too much time, but after seeing the final content of the game I think it's clear that it took significant effort.

Actually, the highest content are literally pictures. The only thing they said was made from scratch was all the stages. They used assets to recreate characters faster. How do you think they were able to get over 60 characters done in 3 years? By using the previous game's data. The 3DS later had the past Brawl data scrubbed. To note, Sakurai cut Pokemon Trainer from Smash 4 during development. This means the data was still there. They took shortcuts. In addition, he's used the previous data of every game to start working on the new game. While we can't confirm he took the other 3DS data from development, there's a strong chance he did.
Again, if it was that easy, then the final game would have a lot more in it. Past data absolutely makes it easier, but it doesn't change the fact that significant work was put into each and every character, clone or otherwise. And still, I'd be willing to cut multiple vets for one big-time unique.

The delay wouldn't have worked even then. They already had a clear goal set in mind and 3 years, which is the normal amount of time, to do so. The only thing they needed to do was more playtesting and bring back modes at best. People aren't going to wait around forever when they have a solid game right in front of them. Really, the biggest complaint about the game is the lack of single player content, which even 4 did better(and that was its biggest complaint too).
Nintendo hasn't shied away from delaying games, even big ones like Brawl.

I agree that at a certain point you just have to get the game out there or else interest will fade and people will get antsy. They don't plan for delays.

I also think that there's a small chance that they'd be willing to delay the game for a character like Banjo just like they did for Sonic. I wouldn't count on this, though, especially given that there's DLC these days.

I was mostly saying there that other factors outside of Smash made it hard for them to make a delay if they had felt that they needed one, not necessarily that doing so would have fixed all the problems with the roster.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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I think the ballot argument comes down to a few things, the biggest of those being that people thought anything beyond the first week or two mattered.

With polls like that, most of the vital information comes from the first two weeks of voting. After that you may have some trickling in of votes, but the majority has come and gone after that amount of time. It’s not hard to believe that, at least in my opinion, Bayonetta was a top pick in the ballot that also allowed the dev team to reuse assets from a character already in the game.

Compare that to Ridley or K.Rool, and despite their popularity the job becomes much, much harder.

Granted, I still look at it as “it is what it is”, and that it doesn’t matter much as this point. Most of the top votes from the ballot were probably the previously cut veterans, K.Rool, Ridley, and a few outliers.
 
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Were Shrek/Goku the "outliers"?

I kinda worry if there'll be a similar hesitance on characters too difficult to make for this game's DLC as there might have been for Rool and Ridley with the last game's DLC. Ryu and Bayo may have averted that idea though, and Joker may be another complex character to craft.
 

fleshdude.gov

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I think the ballot argument comes down to a few things, the biggest of those being that people thought anything beyond the first week or two mattered.

With polls like that, most of the vital information comes from the first two weeks of voting. After that you may have some trickling in of votes, but the majority has come and gone after that amount of time. It’s not hard to believe that, at least in my opinion, Bayonetta was a top pick in the ballot that also allowed the dev team to reuse assets from a character already in the game.
Here's the thing though - even if they stopped counted votes after the first two weeks, it is not logistically feasible that all those votes were processed in such a short timeframe. Not only that, but there's also the issue of getting the rights to use Bayonetta, as they partially belong to a third party studio. Those talks take time and have to be made well before development can even begin on the character. Not to mention the time spent in the planning and designing stages of development prior to even making and animating a model, and that the ballot results were never actually published. Taking all this into consideration, it is highly likely that Bayonetta was not the ballot character, and was instead planned well in advance of the ballot.

There is a catch, however - namely, that none of the "why your character should be in" submissions were actually read or even considered, and that they solely counted names. Not sure why they would even bother including that if the ballot was just gonna not matter at all. Actually, thinking about it, I would not be surprised if the Ballot was not much more than an empty hype generator designed solely to keep Smash 4 relevant between DLCs. Just whip up a webpage really quickly that sends the results to a database no one will ever actually look at, and then advertise it to a community that is all too eager to do their marketing work for them.
 

osby

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Were Shrek/Goku the "outliers"?

I kinda worry if there'll be a similar hesitance on characters too difficult to make for this game's DLC as there might have been for Rool and Ridley with the last game's DLC. Ryu and Bayo may have averted that idea though, and Joker may be another complex character to craft.
I think unique mechanics wouldn't be a problem but unique skeletons might be. Depends on whether DLC development team has more time/staff/resources this time around.
 

Manonymous

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Somebody finds code names for 3 DLC characters right ? One of them is Brave right ?

I'm calling it, it will be a Bravely Default's character !

Mod Edit: Inappropriate content removed
 
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Crap-Zapper

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I don't mind Agnès Oblige as a newcomer.
Never played the game however. Still, think the character looks great, and a female DLC character is a must.
 
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They absolutely took a significant amount of time, just less than fully unique newcomers. If it was that easy, the ability to transfer stuff over from the Wii U game would've given them time for closer to a normal number of newcomers. And again, I'm not suggesting a "one vet for one unique" case; I still think it's better if we lost a fairly large handful of vets in order to get a few big-time inclusions. I already outlined what it could've looked like in this case. Pichu, Young Link, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Doctor Mario, any number of Echoes like Dark Pit, Corrin, maybe one or two of ICs/Wolf/Snake, maybe Roy, maybe a less popular Pokémon like Jigglypuff or Greninja, maybe one third party if they didn't wanna work so hard for licensing, and perhaps a few more were options to be axed. Of course, I'm not suggesting that all of these characters should be cut, and some of these I actually do like and think have earned a spot. But really, if they weren't locked into "Everyone is Here" there were plenty of characters they could have dropped in order to add newcomers. They had plenty of fine options for cuts that would've been met with limited backlash, and vets that were already cut in past games would have less backlash than they were willing to take the first go-round, as way fewer people would've expected them back. And again, it's not like the roster would be tiny in this scenario; they'd still likely be over 60 characters, which is still pretty "Ultimate" (or "Special"). They could have also been less ambitious with Spirits mode, as I don't think they were gonna measure up to SSE without the fancy cutscenes and involved story that so many people loved.
So out of curiosity, who would you have hypothetically added amongst "ballot characters" in this scenario of "mostly everyone is here"?
 

takai

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Sitting and pondering the supposed leaked characters, I just can't help but think how atrocious the picks are. I love DoomGuy, but he doesn't belong in Smash. Ryu is just atrocious in general, the very thought of Steve makes me cringe, and this Dragon Quest character would be awful for everyone but Japan. DQ is practically a non-existent series worldwide.

That's just how I feel about it. Sakurai could be playing underwater 4D chess and is just using these codenames as dummies, or perhaps each names means something else entirely. I try not to stress myself out about it, I try to take them as they come.
 
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Sitting and pondering the supposed leaked characters, I just can't help but think how atrocious the picks are. I love DoomGuy, but he doesn't belong in Smash. Ryu is just atrocious in general, the very thought of Steve makes me cringe, and this Dragon Quest character would be awful for everyone but Japan. DQ is practically a non-existent series worldwide.

That's just how I feel about it. Sakurai could be playing underwater 4D chess and is just using these codenames as dummies, or perhaps each names means something else entirely. I try not to stress myself out about it, I try to take them as they come.
Honestly at this point while there are characters I would rather not see I trust the development team to make a fun character so I remain fairly optimistic about the whole thing. It helps that all my most wanteds have already been deconfirmed lol so I don't really have a horse in the race any more. Also I just started playing Persona 5 and I'm having a blast so at the very least I know I'll like Joker and Piranha Plant.
 

RileyXY1

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I think that this leak is fake. I highly doubt that Joker would be the only surprise amongst the characters in the Fighter Pass.
 

RileyXY1

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By surprise, do you mean unleaked?
I meant unexpected. Erdrick and Doomguy's games helped popularize entire genres and are pretty big, especially with Nintendo. Minecraft content has been rumored for a very long time now and Ryu Hayabusa is the flagship character of the biggest Japanese third party company without any representation in the game, Koei Tecmo (Fatal Frame even has an AT). Erdrick has also been rumored for a while. I think that there will be more characters that people did not see coming.
 
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osby

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I meant unexpected. Erdrick and Doomguy's games helped popularize entire genres and are pretty big, especially with Nintendo. Minecraft content has been rumored for a very long time now and Ryu Hayabusa is the flagship character of the biggest Japanese third party company without any representation in the game, Koei Tecmo (Fatal Frame even has an AT). Erdrick has also been rumored for a while. I think that there will be more characters that people did not see coming.
To be honest, all characters you listed would probably be big surprises to people who aren't big into Smash speculation, but I see your point.
 

RileyXY1

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To be honest, all characters you listed would probably be big surprises to people who aren't big into Smash speculation, but I see your point.
All 4 of them are pretty big in their own right and I think that such characters won't take up 4 of the 5 spots of the fighter pass. I think that there will be some more smaller, lesser known characters like Joker.
 
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