Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That's not really much, like I said, 64 to Melee was the last significant evolution with the addition of spot dodges and side Bs. The rest of those have been way less significant, I mean you considered "tripping" and "floaty gameplay" to be game changers, those aren't really game changers so much as they are annoyances that make the game worse. And perfect shields were in Smash 4.

Perfect Shields were in Brawl too. Possibly in Melee as well. It's the parry mechanic that's unique to Ultimate.

Yep, she is a mage, also the only main character that doesn't use actual weapons, and because of this, the only one is actually associated with Magic instead of a particular weapon type.

She's a light mage right?

you mean Decapre right?

That's what I said. Decapitate.

 

[Will]

But you wont change your mind, which was my point.

There's always hope

 

[GoodGrief741]

Finally, my stance on Fire Emblem. Keep in mind I'm a hardcore fan, played every game in the series except for SoV and Three Houses. I think the representation is a mess. Sakurai has done a terrible job in representing it and showing the variety of characters it has, and the number of characters, while it might be representative of a storied franchise that's also a rising star, is still overbloated and handled the franchise's growing pains in the worst way possible.

Simply put, we don't need a Fates representative, and as important and amazing as Awakening was, we don't need three reps from it either. What we do need is to feature the most popular games, in ways that feel unique. While some characters (Lyn, Byleth) are very easy, we also need Sakurai to put on his thinking cap and find ways to make these characters unique. I get that maybe there's so many things you can do with a sword, but there's no reason besides an unwillingness to be creative for Roy and Chrom to be Marth clones - there are many ways to wield a blade and we've seen them fight in their games in ways that are very unlike the Marth style.

Now, granted, many of these problems are just symptoms of everyone having to return, so hopefully a new game would make things better. As is, sadly I can't begrudge anyone for loathing the possibility of more FE as DLC. And while I think the hatred for "anime swordfighters" is unfounded, it stems from this and it can be easily fixed. As a Fire Emblem fan, I want nothing less than for people to hate the franchise, but I don't blame them, I blame the poor decisions that made them hate it.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't really consider myself "above" anyone for this.

Now that's just a ****ing lie. I don't even need to quote all the times you called others opinions trash or objectively wrong.

 

[Momotsuki]

I think people give way too much credit to the remaining WoL slots. These people are not modding the game like me and the boys. They're working with the source code. Adding more if need be is easy at that high of a level. I'm not saying there will be more, or even as many as that, just that it's not a hard cap.

 

[Will]

Finally, my stance on Fire Emblem. Keep in mind I'm a hardcore fan, played every game in the series except for SoV and Three Houses. I think the representation is a mess. Sakurai has done a terrible job in representing it and showing the variety of characters it has, and the number of characters, while it might be representative of a storied franchise that's also a rising star, is still overbloated and handled the franchise's growing pains in the worst way possible.

Simply put, we don't need a Fates representative, and as important and amazing as Awakening was, we don't need three reps from it either. What we do need is to feature the most popular games, in ways that feel unique. While some characters (Lyn, Byleth) are very easy, we also need Sakurai to put on his thinking cap and find ways to make these characters unique. I get that maybe there's so many things you can do with a sword, but there's no reason besides an unwillingness to be creative for Roy and Chrom to be Marth clones - there are many ways to wield a blade and we've seen them fight in their games in ways that are very unlike the Marth style.

Now, granted, many of these problems are just symptoms of everyone having to return, so hopefully a new game would make things better. As is, sadly I can't begrudge anyone for loathing the possibility of more FE as DLC. And while I think the hatred for "anime swordfighters" is unfounded, it stems from this and it can be easily fixed. As a Fire Emblem fan, I want nothing less than for people to hate the franchise, but I don't blame them, I blame the poor decisions that made them hate it.

My dream team of FE at it's bare minimum would be Marth, Lyn/Hector, and Robin.

Marth started it all, no brainer. Lyn/Hector mostly because FE7 was the international bridging gap between a Japan-exclusive and internationality as a series. Lyn/Hector are equally interchangeable and could be either/or for whomever you wish to pick, since they're both unique in their own ways and have their own moveset appeal. Robin is the most accurate to FE's game mechanics, a mage user, a representative of the new Fire Emblem gimmick of the avatar protagonist, and from the game that revived FE as a series when it was at its lowest. Robin and FE13 are both very important, and I might argue that Lucina and Chrom are also viable if they give a damn to update their movesets to be less of a clone. FE15 is really up to Sakurai, since it's routine to shill the newest installment of the series like Pokemon at this point.

Personally, as a Golden Deer, I see a lot of potential in the likes of Claude but I know damn well that will never happen.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Finally, my stance on Fire Emblem. Keep in mind I'm a hardcore fan, played every game in the series except for SoV and Three Houses. I think the representation is a mess. Sakurai has done a terrible job in representing it and showing the variety of characters it has, and the number of characters, while it might be representative of a storied franchise that's also a rising star, is still overbloated and handled the franchise's growing pains in the worst way possible.

Simply put, we don't need a Fates representative, and as important and amazing as Awakening was, we don't need three reps from it either. What we do need is to feature the most popular games, in ways that feel unique. While some characters (Lyn, Byleth) are very easy, we also need Sakurai to put on his thinking cap and find ways to make these characters unique. I get that maybe there's so many things you can do with a sword, but there's no reason besides an unwillingness to be creative for Roy and Chrom to be Marth clones - there are many ways to wield a blade and we've seen them fight in their games in ways that are very unlike the Marth style.

Now, granted, many of these problems are just symptoms of everyone having to return, so hopefully a new game would make things better. As is, sadly I can't begrudge anyone for loathing the possibility of more FE as DLC. And while I think the hatred for "anime swordfighters" is unfounded, it stems from this and it can be easily fixed. As a Fire Emblem fan, I want nothing less than for people to hate the franchise, but I don't blame them, I blame the poor decisions that made them hate it.

I've said it before, but Robin still stands out to me as one of the best first party newcomers of Smash 4 exactly because it felt like more elements from the series were being represented - along with his more tactical gameplay compared to the other FE characters. I genuinely wish that future FE characters follow a similar creative vein, if anything. I know seeing something like Divine Pulse getting restricted to a down B counter would kinda piss me off, as selfish as that sounds.

For example... I like Hero how he is, but it's kinda mind-boggling that we had to wait for a more "old school" RPG rep to get in before we got a Crit mechanic when that could have been done for a FE character, for example.

Now, all that aside...

If anyone is interested, I did a full analysis of Smash Ultimate's Max CSS compared to the game's current placeholders. And why I think the current CSS limit might have been deliberate and influenced the planning of post-game content.

You can find a link to the original here. But I will also post it as a quoted post just for convenience.

Interesting! So this would theoretically bring us closer to confirming that all placeholder slots would indeed be filled! Boy, I really shouldn't get my hopes up, but you're making it difficult...

 

[Deleted member]

Part of the appeal of Smash apart from the crossover aspect is the ease to play, a game that while it has a high skill ceiling it has a relatively low barrier of entry and can be played as a party game or a fighting game.

Know cut talk is seriously a non issue and frankly its stupid to hypothesize right now as the next game is years away, people might not like some of the characters but thankfully the ones that will be making the decisions are going to be someone at Nintendo. As I can guarantee that the only reasons for cuts is going to be either lack of resources or negotiations that might not be reached.

 

[Will]

Part of the appeal of Smash apart from the crossover aspect is the ease to play, a game that while it has a high skill ceiling it has a relatively low barrier of entry and can be played as a party game or a fighting game.

Know cut talk is seriously a non issue and frankly its stupid to hypothesize right now as the next game is years away, people might not like some of the characters but thankfully the ones that will be making the decisions are going to be someone at Nintendo. As I can guarantee that the only reasons for cuts is going to be either lack of resources or negotiations that might not be reached.

I cringed every time people said "They have to reboot the series with the next game!!! They have no other choice!!!"

Like bruh cmon now don't be irrational

 

[Momotsuki]

Part of the appeal of Smash apart from the crossover aspect is the ease to play, a game that while it has a high skill ceiling it has a relatively low barrier of entry and can be played as a party game or a fighting game.

Know cut talk is seriously a non issue and frankly its stupid to hypothesize right now as the next game is years away, people might not like some of the characters but thankfully the ones that will be making the decisions are going to be someone at Nintendo. As I can guarantee that the only reasons for cuts is going to be either lack of resources or negotiations that might not be reached.

Honestly it's the latter that's really gonna matter. The main reason I think Ultimate is gonna be Smash's peak whether Sakurai/Namco/Nintendo likes it or not is that in making so, so many agreements with third parties that may flip at a moments notice means bringing the whole gang back again becomes several orders of magnitude less likely to be possible. All it takes is one company deciding they're too good for Smash (I don't get it either) and EVERYONE IS HERE falls apart.

 

[Deleted member]

Know cut talk is seriously a non issue and frankly its stupid to hypothesize right now as the next game is years away, people might not like some of the characters but thankfully the ones that will be making the decisions are going to be someone at Nintendo. As I can guarantee that the only reasons for cuts is going to be either lack of resources or negotiations that might not be reached.

It took us 20 years to get Dragon Quest and Banjo-Kazooie. I ain't waiting 20 more.

 

[TheTuninator]

I cringed every time people said "They have to reboot the series with the next game!!! They have no other choice!!!"

Like bruh cmon now don't be irrational

The Smash 6 announcement drops. Sakurai comes out, looks at the camera:
And this is to go even further beyond...

 

[Will]

Marth also having a weapon-change mechanic would be very interesting to see, having him switch from the Falchion to an Iron Sword or something like that to have both the tipper and non-tipper life would be an interesting mechanic if they had to cut the likes of Lucina.

Or make him have the actual Fire Emblem (AKA the shield) the game is named after.



For someone who reps a strategy game, there isn't much strategy in most of their characters. Hell, everyone sans Robin is pretty unga bunga in strategy.

 

[Momotsuki]

I think one of the biggest things that surprised me about Ult's roster is that Cloud wasn't cut. That was more surprising to me than even Young Link and Pichu coming back. A pleasant surprise, though.

 

[Will]

I think one of the biggest things that surprised me about Ult's roster is that Cloud wasn't cut. That was more surprising to me than even Young Link and Pichu coming back. A pleasant surprise, though.

Snake coming back wasn't the most surprising feature?

It's not hard to get Cloud back, what's hard is trying to bargain for Final Fantasy songs because the guy who made them is a big ass.

 

[GKMLTTSB]

The Smash 6 announcement drops. Sakurai comes out, looks at the camera:
And this is to go even further beyond...

"Blizzard did the thing with Overwatch 2 and now we're doing the thing too. Smash 6 is just Ultimate + a new single player campaign and both versions will continue to be updated accordingly."

It's not hard to get Cloud back, what's hard is trying to bargain for Final Fantasy songs because the guy who made them is a big ass.

There's got to be more to it then that...
1) Uematsu has never seemed to be tyrannical about his music, and the weird stipulations seen with Sugiyama's work don't tend to follow him around.
2) If Uematsu has such control over his music, I don't imagine SE has allowed this trend to continue with composers that have less tenure, so songs from the newer games that aren't all handled by Uematsu should be possibilities.

I just want Soken's stuff...
Or Soken as a guest composer... Please?

 

[Momotsuki]

"Blizzard did the thing with Overwatch 2 and now we're doing the thing too. Smash 6 is just Ultimate + a new single player campaign and both versions will continue to be updated accordingly."

Would legit not even be mad at all.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

So here's an idea that I'm pretty sure has never been brought up before (/s)
Overhaul/reform the Fire Emblem roster by folding the various Marth clones into Marth alts a la Bowser Jr. or Hero, and add some additional sword Lords into Marth like Leif and Eirika. The remaining unique Smash Emblem characters can either stay or be replaced with similar characters that fill the same archetype, Like, I dunno, give Corrin's moveset to Tiki.

The main issue with FE is the same thing as Zelda; an overabundance of clones from a series that offers infinite moveset potential. You don't even need to change the amount of reps it currently has, just reform it with enough unique fighters to prove why it warrants so many characters.

 

[TheTuninator]

Marth also having a weapon-change mechanic would be very interesting to see, having him switch from the Falchion to an Iron Sword or something like that to have both the tipper and non-tipper life would be an interesting mechanic if they had to cut the likes of Lucina.

Or make him have the actual Fire Emblem (AKA the shield) the game is named after.

View attachment 246690

For someone who reps a strategy game, there isn't much strategy in most of their characters. Hell, everyone sans Robin is pretty unga bunga in strategy.

To be fair, Ike being unga bunga is pretty on point. They should give Ragnell ranged attacks though, the cowards.

 

[Momotsuki]

As a Chrom main I can confirm there is no strategy whatsoever. You zoom around the stage doing aerials more often than you run and occasionally try going off stage and then SD.

 

[Will]

So here's an idea that I'm pretty sure has never been brought up before (/s)
Overhaul/reform the Fire Emblem roster by folding the various Marth clones into Marth alts a la Bowser Jr. or Hero, and add some additional sword Lords into Marth like Leif and Eirika. The remaining unique Smash Emblem characters can either stay or be replaced with similar characters that fill the same archetype, Like, I dunno, give Corrin's moveset to Tiki.

The main issue with FE is the same thing as Zelda; an overabundance of clones from a series that offers infinite moveset potential. You don't even need to change the amount of reps it currently has, just reform it with enough unique fighters to prove why it warrants so many characters.

I doubt it. Echo Fighters existing make corners a lot more appealing to cut now than ever before. Why put effort when you can just make them a clone?

I mean, being playable is better than anything, but is it truly the fate Dark Samus deserves?

 

[PLATINUM7]

Snake coming back wasn't the most surprising feature?

It's not hard to get Cloud back, what's hard is trying to bargain for Final Fantasy songs because the guy who made them is a big ass.

Uematsu doesn't even appear to have any ownership of the FF music.

 

[Momotsuki]

I doubt it. Echo Fighters existing make corners a lot more appealing to cut now than ever before. Why put effort when you can just make them a clone?

I mean, being playable is better than anything, but is it truly the fate Dark Samus deserves?

Honestly I feel like that was the only shot Dark Samus had. It deserves better but if not an echo, it probably would've been an AT again.

 

[epicmartin7]

I've said it before, but Robin still stands out to me as one of the best first party newcomers of Smash 4 exactly because it felt like more elements from the series were being represented - along with his more tactical gameplay compared to the other FE characters. I genuinely wish that future FE characters follow a similar creative vein, if anything. I know seeing something like Divine Pulse getting restricted to a down B counter would kinda piss me off, as selfish as that sounds.

For example... I like Hero how he is, but it's kinda mind-boggling that we had to wait for a more "old school" RPG rep to get in before we got a Crit mechanic when that could have been done for a FE character, for example.

Now, all that aside...



Interesting! So this would theoretically bring us closer to confirming that all placeholder slots would indeed be filled! Boy, I really shouldn't get my hopes up, but you're making it difficult...

I don't think it's a guarantee they'll be filled personally. Think of this as an analysis of a machine and how it's mechanisms work. Then, use that to work your way back to maybe figure out why a developer did something. Well, the timeframe, if this limit was intentional, would've probably been just before the 1.0 release. Whose timeframe is back in late 2018. Over a year ago.

This means that information I just stated might not even be relevant anymore. Maybe the team's perspective changed? There's a lot of variables involved that make it difficult to pinpoint.

So, in reality, who knows. It may be easy to infer the creator by the machine, but you'll never truly understand a creator's mind.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly it's the latter that's really gonna matter. The main reason I think Ultimate is gonna be Smash's peak whether Sakurai/Namco/Nintendo likes it or not is that in making so, so many agreements with third parties that may flip at a moments notice means bringing the whole gang back again becomes several orders of magnitude less likely to be possible. All it takes is one company deciding they're too good for Smash (I don't get it either) and EVERYONE IS HERE falls apart.

At least with given the content (except FF) a lot of franchises have in the game, there's an incentive for Nintendo to try and keep everyone.

So here's an idea that I'm pretty sure has never been brought up before (/s)
Overhaul/reform the Fire Emblem roster by folding the various Marth clones into Marth alts a la Bowser Jr. or Hero, and add some additional sword Lords into Marth like Leif and Eirika. The remaining unique Smash Emblem characters can either stay or be replaced with similar characters that fill the same archetype, Like, I dunno, give Corrin's moveset to Tiki.

The main issue with FE is the same thing as Zelda; an overabundance of clones from a series that offers infinite moveset potential. You don't even need to change the amount of reps it currently has, just reform it with enough unique fighters to prove why it warrants so many characters.

I think that as long as they overhaul one of the characters related to Marth that would solve a lot of the issues. I liked the idea from a few posts of giving Marth a shield.

 

[Will]

To be fair, Ike being unga bunga is pretty on point. They should give Ragnell ranged attacks though, the cowards.

Ragnell's sword waves are pretty quick though, it's just a faster version of Cloud's Blade Beam but with a longer body and shorter height. Man, Ike's just ripping a lot of things off Cloud, huh? Remember when Cloud did Omnislash on Ike specifically in his reveal trailer because Ike stole that move via Great Aether?

Me too.

 

[SNEKeater]

Finally, my stance on Fire Emblem. Keep in mind I'm a hardcore fan, played every game in the series except for SoV and Three Houses. I think the representation is a mess. Sakurai has done a terrible job in representing it and showing the variety of characters it has, and the number of characters, while it might be representative of a storied franchise that's also a rising star, is still overbloated and handled the franchise's growing pains in the worst way possible.

Simply put, we don't need a Fates representative, and as important and amazing as Awakening was, we don't need three reps from it either. What we do need is to feature the most popular games, in ways that feel unique. While some characters (Lyn, Byleth) are very easy, we also need Sakurai to put on his thinking cap and find ways to make these characters unique. I get that maybe there's so many things you can do with a sword, but there's no reason besides an unwillingness to be creative for Roy and Chrom to be Marth clones - there are many ways to wield a blade and we've seen them fight in their games in ways that are very unlike the Marth style.

Now, granted, many of these problems are just symptoms of everyone having to return, so hopefully a new game would make things better. As is, sadly I can't begrudge anyone for loathing the possibility of more FE as DLC. And while I think the hatred for "anime swordfighters" is unfounded, it stems from this and it can be easily fixed. As a Fire Emblem fan, I want nothing less than for people to hate the franchise, but I don't blame them, I blame the poor decisions that made them hate it.

Yeah, I kind of agree with you. I'm also a Fire Emblem fan (I still have to play Genealogy, Thracia and the second Marth game) and I think that the representation of the franchise in Smash could be a lot better. It's bad? I don't think so, but it's certainly not the best they could achieve.
From the point of view of a Fire Emblem player I don't think that characters like Roy and Corrin are that popular among FE community, not at least in comparison with the other we already have in Smash. This could be my perception, though.

In any case as you said I think that Roy, Lucina or Chrom could be a lot more unique. Sure, they all have their differences and some different moves, but you know what I mean. This is a 'problem' that comes with "everyone is here!" and all that, I guess. Then there's Awakening, a game that obviously deserved at least one playable character. While I liked Chrom and Lucina more than Robin in their original game, I don't know, maybe 3 characters from the same game feels a bit strange, even if it's the one that saved the franchise. Echoes are cool and a nice way to add fan favorites without much problems, tho.

I know it's easy to speak about these things when you're not the actual director or developer behind it, but I don't know. I feel that Fire Emblem representation could be better if they would have added more fan favorites like Hector, Lyn, Micaiah or Ephraim. At the same time these characters would be unique and different compared to the other FE characters we have in Smash because they wouldn't work as echoes of Marth or Ike.

 

[Will]

I liked the idea from a few posts of giving Marth a shield.

That was me.

It's an important piece of equipment in Marth's story to slay Medeus when he gets revived. It's the Hylian Shield to Link's Master Sword as the Fire Emblem is to Falchion. They don't have to add it, but I feel like if they want to change Marth significantly, that's a good start.

 

[Momotsuki]

A small part of me wants to see Gooigi as a Luigi echo just because as a Canadian, seeing a Canadian-made character be a fighter would be pretty neat.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I think one of the biggest things that surprised me about Ult's roster is that Cloud wasn't cut. That was more surprising to me than even Young Link and Pichu coming back. A pleasant surprise, though.

Looking at the content we got for both games, it seems likely that Sakirai planned ahead and made the deal to have Cloud, the stage, and the tracks for two (3 if you count 3DS and Wii U separate) games. Because we got 0 new content from 4 to Ultimate.

 

[Will]

A small part of me wants to see Gooigi as a Luigi echo just because as a Canadian, seeing a Canadian-made character be a fighter would be pretty neat.

If Gooigi gets hit with Water Gun or FLUDD he immediately dies

 

[3BitSaurus]

I don't think it's a guarantee they'll be filled personally. Think of this as an analysis of a machine and how it's mechanisms work. Then, use that to work your way back to maybe figure out why a developer did something. Well, the timeframe, if this limit was intentional, would've probably been just before the 1.0 release. Whose timeframe is back in late 2018. Over a year ago.

This means that information I just stated might not even be relevant anymore. Maybe the team's perspective changed? There's a lot of variables involved that make it difficult to pinpoint.

So, in reality, who knows. It may be easy to infer the creator by the machine, but you'll never truly understand a creator's mind.

Of course. I'm just saying that because I saw a post some time ago detailing how a similar thing was done for Smash 4 DLC and all slots ended up being filled. Granted, it's not a guarantee in any case, because it might as well be placeholder data or leftovers, but if this is the same coding team from Smash 4, one would assume they would use a similar structure, right?

In the end the 91 character limit might mean nothing, but it's certainly interesting to see that there are other things corroborating for more DLC several months after the WoL datamine.

 

[GKMLTTSB]

A small part of me wants to see Gooigi as a Luigi echo just because as a Canadian, seeing a Canadian-made character be a fighter would be pretty neat.

Alexandra Roivas for Team Canada.

 

[PsychoJosh]

Perfect Shields were in Brawl too. Possibly in Melee as well. It's the parry mechanic that's unique to Ultimate.

Yeah so it hasnt really changed much. Overall I just kind of get the sense that Sakurai's trying to do a lot more by adding new mechanics to the Ultimate newcomers but he cant because he has to work within the confines of Smash the way it is.

Now that's just a ****ing lie. I don't even need to quote all the times you called others opinions trash or objectively wrong.

The only lie is what you just posted. But in all honesty I really don't care what you think of me.

 

[Will]

But in all honesty I really don't care.

First mistake is posting that you don't care which shows that you secretly do care.

 

[Night Gale]

A small part of me wants to see Gooigi as a Luigi echo just because as a Canadian, seeing a Canadian-made character be a fighter would be pretty neat.

They should give him a maple syrup color swap.

 

[Momotsuki]

Hmmm... I'm gonna go check the CSS layout file... since I remember something interesting about it. I will be right back!
Hmmm, okay so the CSS can render 91 squares before the game crashes upon trying to load it (I've hit this limit before when I experimented with things) That includes random, by the way, meaning that, to account for people who don't separate Miis and Echo Fighters, that there's room for 90 fighters (92 if you count Pokemon Trainer as three) unless they make some changes to that layout file. That's not a WoL-specific thing, that's specific to any mode that has you select a character. Food for thought!

 

[Will]

Hmmm... I'm gonna go check the CSS layout file... since I remember something interesting about it. I will be right back!
Hmmm, okay so the CSS can render 91 squares before the game crashes upon trying to load it (I've hit this limit before when I experimented with things) That includes random, by the way, meaning that, to account for people who don't separate Miis and Echo Fighters, that there's room for 90 fighters unless they make some changes to that layout file. That's not a WoL-specific thing, that's specific to any mode that has you select a character. Food for thought!

I think that's just the maximum capacity for if they decide to go that far, not that they intend to go that far.

Perhaps it's just futureproofing years ahead of time.

 

[Momotsuki]

I think that's just the maximum capacity for if they decide to go that far, not that they intend to go that far.

Perhaps it's just futureproofing years ahead of time.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I don't intend for this to sound like I'm saying the final roster will be 90 strong.

 

[PsychoJosh]

First mistake is posting that you don't care which shows that you secretly do care.

Alright thanks Jigglypuff