Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[BZL8]

I disagree. There's a lot of redundant chaff that needs to be cut. We dont need 7 Marths, or Young Link when Toon Link exists.

Roster cuts happen all the time in other fighting games so I really couldn't care less about Smash fans being so entitled they can't even handle one echo being cut. Not to mention the game hasnt had a significant gameplay evolution in almost 20 years and it's starting to show its age. It needs to be fresh again. The magic has vanished from character reveals because the gameplay of Ultimate is just so utterly mediocre and samey that it almost doesn't matter who they add.

Smash Ultimate followed a quantity over quality approach and I'd rather they did the inverse for the next game. They can boast about their big roster all they want. Big roster does not mean good roster.

You don't see traditional fighting game series like Street Fighter, Tekken, KOF, etc. change their gameplay fundamentals. That same design philosophy carries over into Smash.

Like it or not, the fundamentals that make Smash what it is are most certainly not going to change for the same reasons why traditional fighting games don't change the fundamentals that make up their gameplay. Sure stuff, mechanics, etc. can vary across installments, but the fundamentals almost always remain intact. This isn't just limited to Smash; just about every fighting game series always retains their fundamentals across installments.

 

[Momotsuki]

I disagree. There's a lot of redundant chaff that needs to be cut. We dont need 7 Marths, or Young Link when Toon Link exists.
Smash Ultimate followed a quantity over quality approach and I'd rather they did the inverse for the next game. They can boast about their big roster all they want. Big roster does not mean good roster.

I don't think you've played the same game as everyone else. You sure you're not getting mixed up, pal?

 

[PsychoJosh]

This has been done to death so many times, but I’m pretty sure , , are no where similar to Marth.

Damn, u people try so hard to devalue Fire Emblem as if it didn’t become one of Nintendo’s recent bigger franchises.

Ah yes, the FE defense force is coming out in spades.

Look, guys, I don't care about your garbage taste in video games, you're free to like that awful franchise all you want. That isn't the point of my post. I'm talking about how Smash hasn't evolved for almost 20 years.

You don't see traditional fighting game series like Street Fighter, Tekken, KOF, etc. change their gameplay fundamentals. That same design philosophy carries over into Smash.

Like it or not, the fundamentals that make Smash what it is are most certainly not going to change for the same reasons why traditional fighting games don't change the fundamentals that make up their gameplay. Sure stuff, mechanics, etc. can vary across installments, but the fundamentals almost always remain intact.

I'm not talking about changing its fundamentals, I'm talking about evolving it.

See, Street Fighter 5 Guile does not play like Street Fighter 4 or Street Fighter 2 Guile. This is because of the addition of new mechanics like V-Trigger and V-Skill. The fundamentals of Smash are there and they're fine, but they haven't put any effort into improving it and it's starting to show.

Answer me this, why is it that all the new DLC characters from Smash 4 onwards get brand new mechanics that are exclusive to them, yet Kirby is still using his completely obsolete N64 moveset? Why is Ganondorf still mostly a Falcon clone? Why don't any of the N64/Melee vets have anything new to let them compete against these wildly new characters that are actually adding new things? This mentality of "we can't change anything because we might alienate the existing fanbase who likes it that way" is absolute crap, and it's holding Smash back. Smash has lots of flaws and mistakes, and instead of fixing them, they're just sweeping them into a corner and it's piling up and starting to stink up the room. It doesn't benefit the game in any way to pretend those flaws don't exist.

 

[Flyboy]

like I get it because I'm a big fighting game fan but also it's really not as big a deal as you think it is

also like melee and ultimate for example play completely differently from each other when you really get down to it outside of the surface level stuff

 

[KatKit]

Oddly relevant Estelle quote #46:

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I disagree. There's a lot of redundant chaff that needs to be cut. We dont need 7 Marths, or Young Link when Toon Link exists.

Roster cuts happen all the time in other fighting games so I really couldn't care less about Smash fans being so entitled they can't even handle one echo being cut. Not to mention the game hasnt had a significant gameplay evolution in almost 20 years and it's starting to show its age. It needs to be fresh again. The magic has vanished from character reveals because the gameplay of Ultimate is just so utterly mediocre and samey that it almost doesn't matter who they add.

Smash Ultimate followed a quantity over quality approach and I'd rather they did the inverse for the next game. They can boast about their big roster all they want. Big roster does not mean good roster.

Big roster means big sales. That's been proven time and time again. Redundancy to hell because each character has love and care put in to each individual one and that's saying a lot for a game with such a large roster.

You used SFV as an example as if it's supposed to be a good one when in fact it's only a good example of what NOT to do with your fighting game. It's one of the most controversial and worst received Street Fighter games ever made.

 

[PhantomShab]

Wow even metaphorical rooms arent safe from Smash stinking them up.

 

[Kronch]

Smash Ultimate has been perfect for giving us both quantity and quality. It's probably one of the few games to do this well. If you want to complain about quantity over quality, play some of the old Dragon Ball fighting games! Or, if you want to complain about quality over quantity, play Dragon Ball FighterZ (without DLC) or RoA (pre-workshop).

 

[MooMew64]

Imagine thinking someone could play Smash 64 and then Ultimate and think they're anything alike.

Imagine calling people who disagree with you and who are only trying to share factual information with you a defense force.

Anyways, uh, Fire Emblem bad, my favorite game good. Am I a Smash Bros. fan yet?

 

[Momotsuki]

Anyways, uh, Fire Emblem bad, my favorite game good. Am I a Smash Bros. fan yet?

Almost! Just make sure GameFAQs is where you pop off with these insightful hot takes.

 

[Kronch]

Oh, on the subject of Smash 64... My goodness is that game fun. Every character is ridiculous. I played it with a friend who plays it competitively, and he absolutely cheesed me with Luigi, the worst character in the game.

He's literally the worst in every objective sense, but he still has a combo that will kill from 0% EASILY. Hilarious stuff.

 

[PsychoJosh]

like I get it because I'm a big fighting game fan but also it's really not as big a deal as you think it is

also like melee and ultimate for example play completely differently from each other when you really get down to it outside of the surface level stuff

Again, I disagree.

Look at it this way, if they were different enough, people would still be playing Brawl and 4. They wouldn't have almost completely abandoned those games. New entries in the Smash series constantly obsolete the old ones. This is because they don't have itinerant designs where each game in the series is wholly unique, but rather just builds on the previous one. No one has any reason to go back to 4 now that Ultimate exists. Compare this to SF where people are constantly playing all the previous games in the series. This is because new entries in the SF series don't "obsolete" the old ones, they do their own thing each time.

Yes, people still play Melee and 64, but that's because those games have just enough to differentiate themselves. The others don't.

Big roster means big sales. That's been proven time and time again. Redundancy to hell because each character has love and care put in to each individual one and that's saying a lot for a game with such a large roster.

You used SFV as an example as if it's supposed to be a good one when in fact it's only a good example of what NOT to do with your fighting game. It's one of the most controversial and worst received Street Fighter games ever made.

No, I'm using the entire SF series as an example, not simply 5. You missed the point. Also 5 actually did fix most of its flaws and it's doing just fine now,

"Love and care put into each one" lol. Saying the bare minimum amount of effort shows love and care. If there was real love and care there wouldn't be any redundancy.

 

[BZL8]

Ah yes, the FE defense force is coming out in spades.

I'm not talking about changing its fundamentals, I'm talking about evolving it.

See, Street Fighter 5 Guile does not play like Street Fighter 4 or Street Fighter 2 Guile. This is because of the addition of new mechanics like V-Trigger and V-Skill. The fundamentals of Smash are there and they're fine, but they haven't put any effort into improving it and it's starting to show.

Answer me this, why is it that all the new DLC characters from Smash 4 onwards get brand new mechanics that are exclusive to them, yet Kirby is still using his completely obsolete N64 moveset? Why is Ganondorf still mostly a Falcon clone? Why don't any of the N64/Melee vets have anything new to let them compete against these wildly new characters that are actually adding new things? This mentality of "we can't change anything because we might alienate the existing fanbase who likes it that way" is absolute crap, and it's holding Smash back. Smash has lots of flaws and mistakes, and instead of fixing them, they're just sweeping them into a corner and it's piling up and starting to stink up the room. It doesn't benefit the game in any way to pretend those flaws don't exist.

SFV Guile being different from his past iterations has to with what you said, the addition of mechanics, not because the fundamentals were changed. Mechanics can dictate how characters play, but they don't change the fundamentals of what makes a fighting game what it is.

is still a jack of all stats Shoto in his series regardless of what changes between installments. Yes, he can be stronger in some installments and weaker in others thanks to gameplay changes, but Ryu is still the intended Jack Of All Stats Shoto of his series. Do you think SF fans would like if Chun-Li, Guile, Akuma, or other Street Fighter had their movesets or archetypes completely changed? That same question is most certainly connected to why Smash fighters still have their movesets and archetypes consistent across installments.

If your issue with Smash happens to be with movesets and archetypes, one does not need to overhaul the fundamentals of the entire series to change how a character plays or animates. That is akin to demolishing an entire house just to repaint a room.

 

[Troykv]

Answer me this, why is it that all the new DLC characters from Smash 4 onwards get brand new mechanics that are exclusive to them, yet Kirby is still using his completely obsolete N64 moveset? Why is Ganondorf still mostly a Falcon clone? Why don't any of the N64/Melee vets have anything new to let them compete against these wildly new characters that are actually adding new things? This mentality of "we can't change anything because we might alienate the existing fanbase who likes it that way" is absolute crap, and it's holding Smash back. Smash has lots of flaws and mistakes, and instead of fixing them, they're just sweeping them into a corner and it's piling up and starting to stink up the room. It doesn't benefit the game in any way to pretend those flaws don't exist.

Actually it would be his completele obsolete MELEE Moveset, Kirby actually had several important changes in the transition from N64 to Melee, many of them ended up badly of course, and the character is still trying to recover since those days.

He also received some move changes in Brawl and Ultimate, but the moveset is otherwise the same even if the properties have changed because of the physics and stuff.

 

[UberPyro64]

I'm pretty sure they did the exact same thing you said, with Xenoblade Chronicles 2 last year.

Now you could say that XC 2 didn't deserve to get nominated for best RPG, or best Soundtrack; but I'd disagree.

Ni No Kuni 2 was the most disappointing game I played in a long, long time and even it got nominated for best RPG.

For the record:
- XC 2 released on December 1 2017. The game awards were held a few days later; so it wasn't eligible for the 2017 awards.
- It wasn't in Game Awards 2018. I don't think they ever gave an explanation, but if they did it was probably "XC 2 came out in 2017 so it is not eligible for 2018".

XC2 isn't a critical darling game. It wasn't all that beloved by games media.

 

[Momotsuki]

Again, I disagree.
"Love and care put into each one" lol. Saying the bare minimum amount of effort shows love and care. If there was real love and care there wouldn't be any redundancy.

I thought cLoNeS bAd stopped when they finally got their official classifications as echoes. Sure, there's semis, but they're semis and not echoes for a reason. Echoes are such because they're *almost* just skins. Semis are different enough that you may want to play one over the other.

 

[MooMew64]

Almost! Just make sure GameFAQs is where you pop off with these insightful hot takes.

Gotta be an EPIC gamer with HOT takes. Like this:

*Ahem* Animu sword man is stinky poo poo. Where's Geno, Sakurai?

 

[Animegamingnerd]

If Fire Emblem is so bad, then why is Three Houses the most acclaim Nintendo published game of the year?

 

[Droodle]

Since we've been talking about Bamco recently, let's shake things up. I've heard that Sakurai played a lot of BlazBlue back in the day, and in my opinion an Arc System Works character isn't all that unlikely.

So I guess between the two premiere Arc System Works characters, who would you rather see:
- Sol Badguy (Guilty Gear is Arc System Works most well known franchise, other than DBFZ)
- Ragna the Bloodedge (Sakurai has played Blazblue, but I don't know about Guilty Gear)

But, again, this is all based upon what I've heard, I have a hard time finding the source that said Sakurai played BlazBlue. Both characters would be pretty unique as they would have the typical fighting game inputs, just with a disjointed weapon now.

EDIT: This is for speculation for all DLC in the future, not just fighter 5.

 

[PsychoJosh]

SFV Guile being different from his past iterations has to with what you said, the addition of mechanics, not because the fundamentals were changed. Mechanics can dictate how characters play, but they don't change the fundamentals of what makes a fighting game what it is.

is still a jack of all stats Shoto in his series regardless of what changes between installments. Yes, he can be stronger in some installments and weaker in others thanks to gameplay changes, but Ryu is still the intended Jack Of All Stats Shoto of his series. Do you think SF fans would like if Chun-Li, Guile, Akuma, or other Street Fighter had their movesets completely changed? That same question is most certainly connected to why Smash fighters still have their movesets consistent across installments.

If your issue with Smash happens to be with movesets, one does not need to overhaul the fundamentals of the entire series to change how a character plays or animates. That is akin to demolishing an entire house just to repaint a room.

Okay? You got the point of what I was saying. Where is the argument here?

I've been saying that Smash could use some new universal mechanics. That's not the same as saying "completely change the fundamentals of it". It could use some additions to make the game play differently.

I thought cLoNeS bAd stopped when they finally got their official classifications as echoes.

It's a different word for the exact same crap, what is it about being called "echoes" that makes it any different?

 

[Momotsuki]

It's a different word for the exact same ****, what is it about being called "echoes" that makes it any different?

Well, most people suddenly became content. Most. Clearly not everyone. But you know, something something majority something cannot be helped.

 

[AEMehr]

I dont believe its outside the realm of possibility. I see where you are coming from on the marketing side of things, and timing is usually key. And I guess you have to consider violating contracts between all parties involved. However, operating a business still involves setting up contingency plans as well. Whether or not those games are on sale could just revolve around Terry's release. If that is the case, that sale would have just happened at a later date.
Its possible Nintendo has 2 characters being developed at a time, and if given enough time in advance can alternate the release of them. Or. the second known character in development is just a feint for the first.

Makes sense considering we knew a DQ rep, most likely "Erdick" was a dlc rep, before we got Joker.

I can see where you're coming from with this, but the main problem with the theory that it still operates off of the assumption that both characters are part of the fighters pass.

This hayabusa / doomguy thing doesn't work, they both cant be in the fighters pass. And assuming the character is showing up at the game awards, theres more than just the two companies that need to be in the know. Additionally being the pentiultimate character in the fighters pass could be a big deal for the company affiliated with the character, so I doubt they'll shift it around freely.

 

[PsychoJosh]

Well, most people suddenly became content. Most. Clearly not everyone. But you know, something something majority something cannot be helped.

Don't understand why. It's the same.

 

[MooMew64]

If Fire Emblem is so bad, then why is Three Houses the most acclaim Nintendo published game of the year?

Because Corrin clearly stole K. Rool's slot back in Smash 4. SMH, I can't believe Sakurai put in a magic dragon shapeshifting sword person when we already have so many with the exact same gimmick. I mean, look at 'em all!:



Outrageous.

 

[Momotsuki]

Because Corrin clearly stole K. Rool's slot back in Smash 4. SMH, I can't believe Sakurai put in a magic dragon shapeshifting sword person when we already have so many with the exact same gimmick. I mean, look at 'em all!:



Outrageous.

Plus, if they hadn't been so insistent on putting in Dark Pit, Dr. Mario, and Lucina, we would've definitely gotten Geno, Isaac, Ridley, K. Rool, Banjo, and Master Chief. All in Smash 4!

 

[Schnee117]

If Fire Emblem is so bad, then why is Three Houses the most acclaim Nintendo published game of the year?

Clearly the critics have awful taste and should instead only exist to validate one person's specific tastes and interests.

 

[PsychoJosh]

Clearly the critics have awful taste and should instead only exist to validate one person's specific tastes and interests.

Totally unlike the same people using those same critics to validate their specific tastes and interests.

 

[Momotsuki]

Totally unlike the same people using those same critics to validate their specific tastes and interests.

An incredible argument absolutely not at all akin to "no you".

 

[PsychoJosh]

An incredible argument absolutely not at all akin to "no you".

It's the truth. How is it any different?

"Oh, it's different when we do it because we're agreeing with each other and giving positive brain chemicals."

 

[BZL8]

Okay? You got the point of what I was saying. Where is the argument here?

I've been saying that Smash could use some new universal mechanics. That's not the same as saying completely change the fundamentals of it.



It's a different word for the exact same ****, what is it about being called "echoes" that makes it any different?

If that was what you were trying to make, I did not get that impression. Just before, you argued for an evolution in the fundamentals (which is essentially a change in fundamentals) and asked me why veteran fighters still played the same when compared to newcomers, calling Kirby's moveset obsolete and calling Ganon a Falcon clone, for example. That suggested you wanted to actually see fundamentals and archetypes of Smash completely overhauled.

 

[MooMew64]

Totally unlike the same people using those same critics to validate their specific tastes and interests.

Opinions are really neato. People can have them and respectfully disagree about them without trash talking the things they like or them themselves.

You not liking Fire Emblem does not objectively make it bad.

 

[Momotsuki]

All that's missing are claims of "Sakurai bias" and this thread will have officially become GameFAQs.

 

[PsychoJosh]

If that was what you were trying to make, I did not get that impression. Just before, you argued for an evolution in the fundamentals (which is essentially a change in fundamentals) and asked me why veteran fighters still played the same when compared to newcomers, calling Kirby's moveset obsolete and calling Ganon a Falcon clone, for example. That suggested you wanted to actually see fundamentals and archetypes of Smash completely overhauled.

I think where we got confused is in the subjective meaning of these words. Evolution/iteration is not the same as changing the game completely. 64 to Melee was a significant evolution to Smash, then it's just stagnated ever since.

Opinions are really neato. People can have them and respectfully disagree about them without trash talking the things they like or them themselves.

You not liking Fire Emblem does not objectively make it bad.

Did I say it was objectively bad? I said "I don't care about your garbage taste and you're free to like those awful games", but those were entirely subjective opinions. Objective would be me saying it was buggy, janky, badly coded and poorly written, which I never did say. Me calling the game 'awful' isn't a valid objective complaint.

 

[SNEKeater]

Look, guys, I don't care about your garbage taste in video games, you're free to like that awful franchise all you want. That isn't the point of my post. I'm talking about how Smash hasn't evolved for almost 20 years.

Even if you're exposing interesting opinions about your point of view about Ultimate with unfortunate comments like this one you're doing nothing but hurting your own argument. People won't take you seriously.

 

[Momotsuki]

Did I say it was objectively bad? I said "I don't care about your garbage taste and you're free to like those awful games", but those were entirely subjective opinions. "Objective" would be me saying it was buggy, janky, badly coded and poorly written.

Chief, I don't mean to stir anythin' up, but I am pretty sure saying that liking a certain thing means you have garbage taste equates to saying that thing is objectively bad.

 

[MooMew64]

Still can't wrap my head around someone thinking Smash is stagnant.

I mean, to each their own, but it really ain't all that hard IMO to see how each one has its own flavor unless you're willfully not wanting to see it.

 

[Schnee117]

This week's been a great week for armchair game devs huh

 

[Momotsuki]

Still can't wrap my head around someone thinking Smash is stagnant.

I mean, to each their own, but it really ain't all that hard IMO to see how each one has its own flavor unless you're willfully not wanting to see it.

Well you see, Little Timmy, it's really cool and fun to storm on in and say that the thing people are enjoying sucks.

 

[Animegamingnerd]

All that's missing are claims of "Sakurai bias" and this thread will have officially become GameFAQs.

breathes in

SAKURAI HATES MARIO RPG!!! /S

 

[GoodGrief741]

My stance on cuts is that I think there's definitely redundant characters that make the product as a whole weaker, so I'm not cut-adverse. That said, I don't think Smash has reached Pokemon levels where it's useless to keep trying to bring everyone back, particularly given the very short development time Ultimate had. So aside from the third parties that might be difficult to renegotiate (honestly, they're shooting themselves in the foot with that focus), I could see everyone returning again.

My priority as a consumer is always on new content rather than old returning content, so in that aspect Smash has a lot of room to grow.

Bring back Kevin Keene. Make him Nintendo's Sora, and give us an action-adventure or action-RPG spanning across multiple universes.

Ideas like these should legally bind Nintendo to make you their president.