Newbie 17 - Breaking Bad Mafia! Game over! Who won?

[#HBC | Kary]

I guess I just want to know wheter people agree, or whether I'm way off-base and in fact Ranmaru always plays this way.

 

[ranmaru]

@Lemon:

[*]You called me out on the word 'probably' even though it wasn't an important part of what i was saying. I don't think that's me being unsure or trying to cover up or squat.

Tell me why you think it wasn't you covering up for your actions.

[*]You asked me for an opinion on Zen, and I told you that I liked him, I thought he was playing well, and as far as I can tell you took this as me giving him a clear town read, even though I pretty much said I would reserve judgment.

Underlined, this seemed like a town read with the reasoning you gave. You even excused him for voting me without a reason with wifom. "Oh he either did it to reaction test you or has a reason, it's fine either way." You weren't trying to figure Zen out, which is suspicious and upon your scumflip Zen would be on my bingo book. I never asked you if you thought he was playing well. I asked for an opinion, and when someone asks for opinions it is usually a read.

Bolded, quote where you said this.

[*]You think it's suspicious that I only asked you to join the Shotty waggon, and that I didn't explain why I said I was testing you by asking you to join it. I don't really understand why singling you out and asking you to do something really minor just to see whether you'd do it is suspicious. Aren't we trying to get reactions from one another at this stage in the game?

Yes, of course. But you didn't give a reason and you were trying to appeal to Vitamin to join on my wagon when you yourself didn't have a reason. Yes you take a very long time to post so when you said that it was a test you should have explained what conclusion you came to but you didn't really have one. It was fake.

[*]I didn't ask Zen/VitaminC or anyone else to join the Shottymaster waggon because I'm not really that interested in having a waggon at this point. Hence why I used the 'waggon' as a means of judging your responses. I thought that this was pretty obvious.

Why didn't you say this before?

No of course not, and I find it suspicious you are trying to dodge responsibility of 'having a wagon' by saying that it was obvious. If it was obvious I wouldn't have had to ask you about it.

[*]And if you must know, your post #61 was what prompted me to ask you about the Shotty waggon, because I wasn't getting anything useful from your waffly and confusing posts. I thought maybe than following your advice and.... I don't know, it's not even clear- I would instead ask you a simple question.

Why exactly did you feel my #61 prompted you to ask me about the shotty wagon?

Bold, I said you should ask people about what you suspected, this is true. But you never stated you had suspected me for anything in that. So I don't see where you are coming from. You just asked me to join the Shotty wagon, so I did. You didn't say anything about it at all.

Underlined, if you felt my statements were waffly or confusing, why didn't you just ask me about them? I feel you are sheeping Axel's case because you never said this at first. Still very scummy. If you were townie you would try to understand what I'm trying to say, not just damn me because I didn't get something out the right way.

[*]You're asking way too many questions- whenever you reply to someone you ask them six things when you could ask them one and maybe get a clear answer.

That's just my playstyle. Deal with it. This doesn't determine alignment. My questions help me develop reads and it forces people to back up their stances.

[*]All you seem to do is call other people out on things, I don't think i've seen you just sit back and maybe take a few questions; an over-active town isn't a good thing either.

Yeah, I'm scumhunting. That's what people do around here. I don't sit around on my thumbs. An active town is a good thing. Does this mean you think a lurker town is better? If so, give reasons as to why.

[*]You've got a couple of votes on you, perhaps because you're all over the place, but I don't think you've come out with any real defence, any explanation of your actions- you just want people to explain why they voted for you.

I don't understand your thought process here. How can I defend myself if people don't explain themselves at first? This seems like you are tacking on a point to make me seem scummy.

Underlined, I need to do this to be able to defend myself. Without a reason, then I can't defend myself because they are pushing for no reason. Just cuz.

[*]If you're going to call me scum, not just vote me, for heaven's sake at least make a halfway decent case. I would love to say that you're putting pressure on me but it feels like you're wasting my time.

I have given reasons. That is enough and cases come later near lynch time. I feel you are omgusing me and trying to find a way to discredit me.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Yes he called omgus i win yes

 

[ranmaru]

@JD:

It means exactly what I said. You were double backing on your read of Kary for doing exactly the same thing as you always do. What kind of standard is that?

Him doing the same thing I do doesn't make him town. As a newb scum in my first game, I did the same thing. "Hey guys let's find those scum!" "Let's get the ball rolling!" It seems very in line with a newb scum play. I feel this point is bad, JD. And it's nasty bro.

No, you were AtE'ing in that post.

No, that's not AtE. Go read the newbie guide, try to understand it a little better and come back to me. Basically, AtE is when someone is like "Oh but i'm sad that this is happening" or just lots of "I HATE YOU YOU ARE SO STUPID GAH". The latter I hate dealing with. But I never AtE, because it would cloud my judgement. I use terms like Broski and "**** MANG" because they are funny.

You could have simply said so normally, but instead you chose to filter in buddying and AtE

. Even without these exclamatory remarks added in, your paragraph overall looks like flailing. Zen is voting you for double backing and fence sitting, so to answer him, you double backed on why you were double backing? Great.

That was not buddying nor was it AtE. Dude you are just saying this so you can belong to my wagon. Underlined, that was not flailing.

You try to simplify Zen's read on me just by saying I double backed, but I was explaining that I didn't have a solid read on them. There is more to me than that. It's natural not to have a solid read at that stage, and this is scummy from you because you aren't trying to look at me thoroughly. Course you are still new but it's readily apparent you are doing this to join your buddy Vitamin.

 

[VitaminC]

If you were townie you would try to understand what I'm trying to say, not just damn me because I didn't get something out the right way.

Where have I seen you do this before?

I'm not going to pretend I'm stupid or anything, but really, you're on my case because I didn't do something right.

Oh, right! Hahaha, you did it to me.

 

[ranmaru]

Yes he called omgus i win yes

This is a very suspicious reaction. Are you saying you posted those points to WIN the argument, instead of finding scum?

 

[ranmaru]

Where have I seen you do this before?



Oh, right! Hahaha, you did it to me.

What do you mean? He said that he reaction tested me because I was confusing and waffly, yet he hasn't ever asked me about my statements/actions.

Your reasoning was clear, and I have asked you about your reasoning multiple times, especially when you said I misunderstood you. I don't see how this means I wasn't trying to understand you.

 

[ranmaru]

Alright, I'm off for now guys.

 

[VitaminC]

No, that's not AtE. Go read the newbie guide, try to understand it a little better and come back to me. Basically, AtE is when someone is like "Oh but i'm sad that this is happening" or just lots of "I HATE YOU YOU ARE SO STUPID GAH". The latter I hate dealing with. But I never AtE, because it would cloud my judgement. I use terms like Broski and "**** MANG" because they are funny.



That was not buddying nor was it AtE. Dude you are just saying this so you can belong to my wagon. Underlined, that was not flailing.

You try to simplify Zen's read on me just by saying I double backed, but I was explaining that I didn't have a solid read on them. There is more to me than that. It's natural not to have a solid read at that stage, and this is scummy from you because you aren't trying to look at me thoroughly. Course you are still new but it's readily apparent you are doing this to join your buddy Vitamin.

Hmm. Appeal to Emotion.... Nah, humor's totally not AtE.
You're oversimplifying a decently complex topic, and then claiming you know plenty about it and he doesn't. You don't even seem to understand it in the first place. An appeal to emotions is a tool used in argument to persuade the audience of your viewpoint through manipulating their emotions - making them sympathize with you. Making people laugh will naturally turn them on to you. Thus, appeal to emotion.

Also, your recent arguments have consisted of you trying to solidify people as scum by grouping them with other people you also are trying to push as scum. This isn't remotely effective. You've given no evidence as to why JDietz is scum, yet you try to run him over with you "logic" and claiming that he isn't "looking at you and your intent." Your intent is bull. You're trying to make other people look scummy when there's minuscule or even a lack of evidence available for you to do so.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

This is a very suspicious reaction. Are you saying you posted those points to WIN the argument, instead of finding scum?

Who's to say I can't both win the argument and find some scum? Is that somehow obvious? I'll get to all your pointless questions in a minute. I just... don't see how your play helps town - at all.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

* 'your play' as in the way you are playing so far, not a specific 'play' that you have made.

 

[Shottymaster]

Well, I finally get a chance to get on and oh, what's this? I have several votes. Hmm.

@Kary: What made you originally vote for me, was it just the fact that it was RVS, is it my pink name, what was it?

@Ori: What made you jump on and make a second vote against me? Were you just randomly choosing like Kary may or may not have or were you voting for me due to the fact that I already had a vote? And I am slightly suspicious that you haven't put in any input at all into the discussion following the three votes against me. It could be a simple excuse like mine (classes) but your lack of voice in a discussion partly set into motion by your vote seems a bit fishy.

I'll be here for a little bit before I'm off again so ask away.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Goddamn, you guys post so much. BRB, reading everything.

 

[VitaminC]

Shotty, have you read the thread? If so, what are your thoughts on scum, town, players, et cetera?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

@Shottymaster:
It was random, based on the time that day one started at. Also you said you were a newbie so I thought it wouldn't hurt for you to have a few votes and see how you defend yourself, let people find out how you play generally.
Ori_bro also voted for you after I did, no idea why, didn't ask- assumed it was random.
I DID ask Ranmaru to vote for you, though. I was basically just seeing whether he could follow simple instructions; at that stage in the game i considered all votes worthless anyways.

 

[o-Serin-o]

This has been the biggest boom of D1 that I've ever played. *sigh*

I'll quote and respond to things when I'm finished.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Okay, from the looks of everything that I've read thus far, it seems as though VitaminC is receiving the finger for:

Iffy statements
Poor reasoning on his views
???


And I guess people were just hoping on the bandwagon because of it? Am I somewhere in the ballpark here?

 

[o-Serin-o]

I asked about Serin and Sotty because I have a read on them, but slight. I was just bouncing ideas. I was thinking about the setup, and felt Serin might have been fire/ice because of his filler statement regarding you. I was thinking of what they might try to do.

And what did your slight reads tell you?

 

[VitaminC]

Could you point out examples of this? I wasn't aware there was a wagon on me.

Serin, who are your top four scum picks after reading the thread?

 

[Shottymaster]

The fact that he jumped on the bandwagon so quickly seems a little scummy, especially when he jumps on the bandwagon to lynch someone with no real legitimate reason right after saying that he likes to root out mafia scum.

 

[VitaminC]

Or maybe let's go with two, there aren't a lot of active people yet.

 

[VitaminC]

The fact that he jumped on the bandwagon so quickly seems a little scummy, especially when he jumps on the bandwagon to lynch someone with no real legitimate reason right after saying that he likes to root out mafia scum.

Who is the he you're referring to?

 

[Shottymaster]

Referring to Ranmaru.

"It depends on the situation. I personally don't enjoy being mafia nor can I really do it right because I'll be guilty of it. I find being town is easier for me because I can do whatever I like without regards to scumbuddies etc. Like Axel, I like hunting scum. Some can play Mafia better than town because they might be harder to read or can adapt well to their situation."

After this it seems a little sketchy that he would jump on the first opportunity to lynch someone, "to get the ball rolling", or reworded, "lynching someone just for the sake of lynching someone".

 

[Axel]

Al eate:

I'd like to start out by asking how much experience each of you have in mafia. Is this your first mafia game? If not, how many games have you played before, where, and what were your alignments in those games?

 

[o-Serin-o]

Truth be told, I can't really point fingers at the moment. The game is going, but everyone seems a little too quick to point fingers without really letting everyone get a chance to throw in their input seriously.

I'll give my opinions on what goes on from here on and on certain things from the last few pages.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

@Ran, everyone interested in my very long answer to Ran (#162):

my responses in pale turquoise

Re: Ran's post #90, my reply #147, and so on,
Ran's case against me.

Spoiler

@Lemon:
Tell me why you think it wasn't you covering up for your actions.

Because I know it was me trying to seem polite.
Either make a case for why it might be me covering up, or admit that it's nothing and stop wasting my time.


Underlined, this seemed like a town read with the reasoning you gave.

Saying that you like the way someone is playing does not mean you think they are town. If anything it just says you like their playstyle.

You even excused him for voting me without a reason with wifom. "Oh he either did it to reaction test you or has a reason, it's fine either way."

This isn't WIFOM, because neither of the things I suggest Zen might be doing are bad! In addition, I've not said Zen could only be doing one of two things, which is surely required for WIFOM. And I'm not really excusing him or defending him, I'm just giving an opinion.

You weren't trying to figure Zen out, which is suspicious and upon your scumflip Zen would be on my bingo book.

Not trying to figure someone out at all - I'll grant you, that's suspicious. Not trying to figure them out straight away? Not very suspicious. Especially when at the time I was trying to figure you out.

I never asked you if you thought he was playing well. I asked for an opinion, and when someone asks for opinions it is usually a read.

I'm a newbie, I took you literally, I thought we were just talking, not handing in our reads to Dr. Ranmaru. Guilty as charged.

Bolded, quote where you said this ---> (I pretty much said I would reserve judgment. )

"Obviously my view of him may change depending on the reasoning for your vote which he promised." (#82)


Yes, of course. But you didn't give a reason and you were trying to appeal to Vitamin to join on my wagon when you yourself didn't have a reason. Yes you take a very long time to post so when you said that it was a test you should have explained what conclusion you came to but you didn't really have one. It was fake.

What reason are you expecting?
I wasn't trying to appeal to Vitamin, if anything I was asking him what he thought of you, and what he thought of waggons generally, just not in those words.
I do take time over my posts. Maybe you should try it some time.
How can it be 'fake'? I'm trying to get information from you. So maybe I don't share that with everyone straight away, so what? I guess I read you as leaning pro-waggon, leaning towards seeming helpful. I didn't think that warranted posting.


Why didn't you say this before?

"I haven't asked either of them to join me in voting Shottymaster ... I don't plan on asking them at this time ... much as I'd like to surprise Shotty ..."(#82)
This pretty much spells 'not serious about waggon' to me. That and I don't HAVE to tell you how serious I am about waggons, at least not until they become serious or someone actually asks.


No of course not, and I find it suspicious you are trying to dodge responsibility of 'having a wagon' by saying that it was obvious.

I'm not trying to dodge responsibility for 'my waggon', I'll happily take full responsibilty for it. But there was nothing to the waggon, it wasn't going anywhere.

If it was obvious I wouldn't have had to ask you about it.

Or you're dumb.
I checked, I'm allowed to say that you might be dumb.


Why exactly did you feel my #61 prompted you to ask me about the shotty wagon?

"because I wasn't getting anything useful from your waffly and confusing posts"(#147), again.

Bold, I said you should ask people about what you suspected, this is true. But you never stated you had suspected me for anything in that. So I don't see where you are coming from. You just asked me to join the Shotty wagon, so I did. You didn't say anything about it at all.

I didn't, and don't, suspect you for suggesting how I play the game. I just had no idea how your advice was meant to help, nor why you were giving it when I hadn't asked for it. So I ignored it, along with the rest of your post, and asked about Shottymaster.

Underlined, if you felt my statements were waffly or confusing, why didn't you just ask me about them?

There were too many questions to ask, because what you were saying didn't make sense, and I'd just asked you a pretty simple question and you'd waffled. I didn't want to force the subject so I changed it.

I feel you are sheeping Axel's case because you never said this at first.

His case was that you were fence-sitting, and back-pedalling your opinion of me, if I understand him. I don't remember calling you on either of those things, so how can i be sheeping him?

Still very scummy. If you were townie you would try to understand what I'm trying to say, not just damn me because I didn't get something out the right way.

I believe VitaminC already called you on doing this to him (#165)

My case against Ran, again Re: #147

Spoiler

@Lemon:
Who's to say I'm not trying to understand you? Just because I'm not asking you loads of questions right away doesn't mean I'm not town. If I thought something you'd said was important enough, i'd come back to it later, and if you thought it was important, i'd hope you'd bring it up later.

That's just my playstyle. Deal with it. This doesn't determine alignment. My questions help me develop reads and it forces people to back up their stances.

Town don't win just by you getting good reads. If I think your playstyle prevents other players getting reads, then I might suspect you of being scum, especially if you're unwilling to change. And your questions don't do anything if they're not good questions.


Yeah, I'm scumhunting. That's what people do around here. I don't sit around on my thumbs. An active town is a good thing. Does this mean you think a lurker town is better? If so, give reasons as to why.

What I'm saying is that your method of scumhunting doesn't seem like the best. You posting loads probably encourages lurking more than discourages it, because it's harder for people to read the thread. I don't think lurkers are good for town, but I don't think one player having all of the posts, or asking all of the questions, is good for town either, really.


I don't understand your thought process here. How can I defend myself if people don't explain themselves at first? This seems like you are tacking on a point to make me seem scummy. Underlined, I need to do this to be able to defend myself. Without a reason, then I can't defend myself because they are pushing for no reason. Just cuz.

At least one player has made a case against you, and the best I have seen you do is just say 'I didn't' or ask them why they think that. Sometimes when people come asking questions of you you're going to have to give them answers, rather than more questions- otherwise you're not really co-operating and that doesn't help town. I don't think it's tacked on, I think it's fundamental to the way you're playing this game so far.


I have given reasons. That is enough and cases come later near lynch time. I feel you are omgusing me and trying to find a way to discredit me.

Ok, well I haven't seen any good reasons from you, and I don't think you've made them very clearly so forgive me if I'm still asking for them. There's no reason why you can't make a case now, or are you arguing it's just random/gut feeling at this stage? If you think i'm overreacting because you voted for me then you've misread me- if i'm overreacting it's because you are either a) not helping town at all, without knowing it. Or b) scum messing with town because you're scum. I guess I am trying to discredit you, but to be honest you did a pretty good job of that yourself.

TL,DR: I don't think Ran's case against me is worth anyone's time. I don't think he really responds to my case against him, which is broadly that his playstyle hurts town by making it all about him and by asking too many questions of other players. Also if you missed it he called omgus on me, so I win, right?

Bottom line, at the moment, my read on Ran is: dumb or scum.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I put the collapse tags in the wrong place in case it wasn't obvious, the top paragraph of section 2 should be the last one in section 1. Oh well.

 

[Axel]

@Lemon: Yes I'd like to know. Feel free to ask them first.

I'm thinking scum.

@Axel: My reread of this thread has made me morbidly curious. Why did you vote for me and why did you ask Ranmaru if he knew why you voted for me?

Nothing too serious. Your "insert generic good luck message here!" appeared to me as you being concerned with your image. You took notice that it was a generic thing to do and made note of that. If anything it was simply something to vote you for in RVS, like I said nothing serious.

I asked Ranmaru simply to take note of how he would answer. I wanted to see if he would attempt appeal to me by giving a thought out answer or if he would question it as he did.

 

[Alacion]

@Axel

This is the second game I've played here. First game was the previous Newbie game and I was aligned with the town.

I didn't think the game would be so fast... kinda struggling to keep up

 

[#HBC | Kary]

@Zen, JDietz43: do you think Ranmaru really answered the case you made against him? What's your read of him at the moment?

My top two scum picks at the moment: Ranmaru, Me (joking), Zen I guess.

 

[Axel]

@Zen, JDietz43: do you think Ranmaru really answered the case you made against him? What's your read of him at the moment?

My top two scum picks at the moment: Ranmaru, Me (joking), Zen I guess.

Where is your scum read of me coming from? As for Ranmaru I feel his response adequately answered mine and the speed at which he answered it was good as well.

 

[Axel]

That's with regards to that post specifically however. It was a decent response. Ran's play, however, I still do not like. He seems to be making accusations at anything he can.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

@Zen:
My read of you is mostly based on your making a case against Ranmaru, apparently through some moment of insight (voting first then posting reasons), but then not following it up very much.
I guess if you were satisfied with his answer then that's understandable. I wasn't really happy with Ran's response to you, I thought he didn't really try hard enough, but I guess maybe you've got what you wanted from that interaction already.
I guess the other leaning scum I guess is your quite general question ('have you played mafia before etc.')., especially when you repeated it to Aleate- I'm not sure where you're going with it, or to what extent it helps you get reads.
Anyway, to me you don't really read one way or the other yet. But if I had to pick a second scum today it'd be you over a lurker.

Does Ran typically play like this? He more or less told me he does.

 

[Shottymaster]

@Zen - That's what makes me suspect Ran to be scum. His accusations don't seem to be backed up with a whole lot of solid evidence.

 

[Axel]

Yes Ran typically plays like this. He tends to spam the thread with too many questions that lead to no where. The only thing that is off to me are his accusations. They are a bit too certain this early in the game and he seems to be OMGUSing quite a bit.

 

[Ori_bro]

I have yet to make any true claims as to who the potential scums are. Like I posted originally, "Woo RVS"

its the initial post of D1, Random Voting Stage. Everyone randomly votes because there is nothing crucial known yet. I will be reading theough the past 2 pages tonight/tomorrow morning. I'm mad tired after my friends birthday so I will make proper responses and possible acusations tomorrow.

 

[JTB]

Great activity everyone!

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!
Deadline 4/22, 11:59 PM EST

Vinyl. [0]
Aleate [0]
Ori_bro [0]
o-Serin-o [0]
GLG [0]
VitaminC [0]
Shottymaster [1] Ori_bro
Jdietz [0]
Kary [1] Ranmaru
Zen [0]
th3kuzinator [0]
Ranmaru [4] VitaminC , Zen, Jdietz, Kary

Not voting: Aleate, o-Serin-o, GLG, Shottymaster, th3kuzinator, Vinyl.

 

[Ori_bro]

Seeing 4 votes on Ran is interesting. Going to delve deeper into his posts.

More to come.

 

[Jdietz43]

@KaryLemon:
Asking a ton of questions is typical of Ran, his overall behavior surrounding those questions however is not.

I'd like to hear why Zen is your secondary scum-pick for voting for your top scum-pick however. Why aren't you happy with the fact his case is against your own pick? If you aren't happy with his explanation, then why is he your pick as well?






@Ran:

@JD:
Him doing the same thing I do doesn't make him town. As a newb scum in my first game, I did the same thing. "Hey guys let's find those scum!" "Let's get the ball rolling!" It seems very in line with a newb scum play. I feel this point is bad, JD. And it's nasty bro.

It doesn't make him scum either. It sounds very hypocritical of you to assault someone for using a facet of your own play.

No, that's not AtE. Go read the newbie guide, try to understand it a little better and come back to me. Basically, AtE is when someone is like "Oh but i'm sad that this is happening" or just lots of "I HATE YOU YOU ARE SO STUPID GAH". The latter I hate dealing with. But I never AtE, because it would cloud my judgement. I use terms like Broski and "**** MANG" because they are funny.

It most definitely is. When you have to reach for exclamations and terms of endearment and it's the only post in the game you have done so in so far, you're looking to spice up your response in Zen's eyes. It also doesn't explain how frantic it was considering there was only his vote on you and actual pressure at the time iirc. I'm a guy who likes pletny of jokes himself, but I know when something is there as an appeal and not a joke for the sake of joking.

You try to simplify Zen's read on me just by saying I double backed, but I was explaining that I didn't have a solid read on them. There is more to me than that. It's natural not to have a solid read at that stage, and this is scummy from you because you aren't trying to look at me thoroughly. Course you are still new but it's readily apparent you are doing this to join your buddy Vitamin.

I'd love to hear the thought process behind coming to the Jdietz+Vitamin conclusion.


I'd also like to hear the explanation behind this quote:

@Zen:
I asked about Serin and Sotty because I have a read on them, but slight. I was just bouncing ideas. I was thinking about the setup, and felt Serin might have been fire/ice because of his filler statement regarding you. I was thinking of what they might try to do.

What is your read on Shotty? Keep in mind that Shotty hadn't actually posted yet at that point beyond a single greeting and RVS. He merely had a ton of RVS votes, one of which was your own. What were you driving at grouping him with Serin?

 

[Jdietz43]

Finished quick re-read and an ISO on VitaminC.

@Ran: I could see how you would argue for Jdietz+Vitamin, but Vitamin's lack of solid case for voting you does not mitigate my own. I'll take votes for scum from an enemy scum faction if it comes down to that. If Vitamin is scum versus. n00b contradicting himself it should become apparent in a day or two.

@Zen, JDietz43: do you think Ranmaru really answered the case you made against him? What's your read of him at the moment?

He answered to it, but he did not absolve himself from it being applied to him. His response on the AtE was weak, and his opinions still scattered and opportunistic. I would feel more comfortable with him gone now rather than have to deal with him again Day 2. (one of the many lessons I learned from SF2)



Now I want to see Kuz and GLG come in this. Kuz when you get here: opinion on Ran.