Newbie 13: Organization XIII Mafia ~Town Wins!~

[th3kuzinator]

Sorry that took awhile to type, I had to go back and summarize everything I had from awhile back. I skimmed over the recent content. I don't think PRs outing are a good idea as I believe that the cop has an inno based on him not outing today. If we are going to request that the PRs out then I would prefer if we get a consensus on it first and unfortunately Sangfroid is V/LA until Monday. I do think there is merit in doing it, however I have mixed feelings as cop could be sacked if the other PR claim is a nurse|deputy. On the other hand, it would help us to prioritize the mislynch today as it gives us breathing room for subsequent days.

Think about if we pressure someone to lynch and they claim a PR. We literally don't know what to do at all until we have every other PR claim to figure out the pool. So, essentially, we'll have to mass claim anyway if someone claims a PR. Why wait until then after we have to waste time finding our lynch when we can just do it now and narrow down the pool from that.

If its gotta be done, better to do it sooner rather than later. Finding out possible results is just a bonus.

 

[th3kuzinator]

... Perhaps, Kuz But you have to remember the fact that I still see you as scum, so I'm taking your suggestions with a grain or three of salt.

On another note, here are my top scumpicks, in order:

Kuz
SW
Seikend.

Just because you think I'm scum doesn't have to affect the plan I'm proposing. Find the scummy intent behind my plan and weigh it against towny one. Regardless of what you think of me specifically, if it makes sense setup wise it should be done.

If you don't agree that there's more advantage to it than disadvantage, then tell me why and argue it based on actual mechanics, not by who is proposing it.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Seikend. When you have time can you actually read and respond to my #1011 instead of skimming to the end and answering the last question.

At the end of D1 you decided to go with a Panta lynch when initially you said the vote was a "stretch" in #789. I'm curious as to why you lynched Panta as the day ended without your providing reasons aside from you avoiding a forced NL situation.

 

[th3kuzinator]

And as for the question why scum killed Garg, he was largely inactive and his posts contained lots of fluff. A safe kill by any standards.

That + the fact that his confidence might have made it look like he had a PR, which is what scum were ultimately after I'm sure.

 

[Gova]

1.) Acrostic ()
2.) SangfroidWarrior ()
4.) Seikend (1) Acrostic
6.) Budget Player Cadet_ (1) Kuz
7.) Werekill ()
8.) Zen ()
9.) th3kuzinator (1) Werekill
Not voting - SW, Seikend, BPC, Zen,

With 7 playing, it takes 4 to lynch!

Deadline is August 3rd at 11:59 PM EST (GMT-5).

 

[th3kuzinator]

@Acrostic: What is your read on BPC?

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

@Acrostic: What is your read on BPC?

I really liked his last post, but he's still null until I see responses. I haven't reviewed your analysis of him yet. I'm still looking over your Werewolf post at the moment. Regarding lynches, I'm still not sure of the best lynch for today. A large part of my reads on Seikend will be how he plays today as there is not much to go off on from D1. I will consider a Zεη|BPC lynch if I notice scum slips in their play, however they seem like easy push targets for scum given the fact that they don't post a lot and aren't here to defend themselves.

 

[Seikend]

Seikend. When you have time can you actually read and respond to my #1011 instead of skimming to the end and answering the last question.

I ignored it because it was dumb and reading out of context.

I did not say a panta vote was a "stretch".

"I would favour a WK lynch toDay. At a stretch I'd take Panta and Acrostic over a No Lynch. Everyone else is good for toDay."

A Panta LYNCH was a stretch. It's quite clear that the above means that WK is my top scumpick, and Panta and yourself are lesser scumpicks.

In my #789 I also explained my suspicions of Panta. Initially I said he was a top suspect but on my re-read that lessened to a lesser scum pick.

"Eh, Panta doesn't look as bad as I thought. His case on BPC was ugly but nothing else is particularly noteable. Howeverrr, nothing is notably good either. Pretty much a non-presence. Earned my suspicions, but not a priority."


Werekill was at L-2. Me voting WK would have put him at L-1, but I had no idea if Kuz would want to hammer WK. I remember him saying that he was considering WK as town. Therefore I didn't think a WK lynch would happen. We were in a situation where a No Lynch was a real possibility. Therefore I went with the next most viable lynch in my scumpool, which was Panta.


You're being a silly Acrostic. What else leads you to believe I'm scum?

 

[th3kuzinator]

I really liked his last post, but he's still null until I see responses. I haven't reviewed your analysis of him yet. I'm still looking over your Werewolf post at the moment. Regarding lynches, I'm still not sure of the best lynch for today. A large part of my reads on Seikend will be how he plays today as there is not much to go off on from D1. I will consider a Zεη|BPC lynch if I notice scum slips in their play, however they seem like easy push targets for scum given the fact that they don't post a lot and aren't here to defend themselves.

Or that they are the scummiest players with the information we have presented to us.

I already explained why I have the town reads I do on every other player/slot. BPC has been enormously scummy and I don't see what about his last post you really liked. He basically talked about Night Kill WIFOM. I haven't seen any content based on actual in-thread evidence from him in forever.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

I ignored it because it was dumb and reading out of context.

If you feel that something is out of context, then you should care about how that post has been misconstrued as it could be scum trying to push a lynch on you. It's not optimal town play to be apathetic when we have one mislynch available and we want to lynch scum.

I did not say a panta vote was a "stretch". "I would favour a WK lynch toDay. At a stretch I'd take Panta and Acrostic over a No Lynch. Everyone else is good for toDay." A Panta LYNCH was a stretch. It's quite clear that the above means that WK is my top scumpick, and Panta and yourself are lesser scumpicks.

Are "lesser scumpicks" the equivalent of "null?" I felt that there was a lack of commitment in the reads your provided. To some extent I can understand if it's because you just replaced in, however you should have at least pressed some questions on Werekill|Panta|me before pushing on with a lynch. Were you so sure of your scum picks that didn't warrant questions?

In my #789 I also explained my suspicions of Panta. Initially I said he was a top suspect but on my re-read that lessened to a lesser scum pick. "Eh, Panta doesn't look as bad as I thought. His case on BPC was ugly but nothing else is particularly noteable. Howeverrr, nothing is notably good either. Pretty much a non-presence. Earned my suspicions, but not a priority." Werekill was at L-2. Me voting WK would have put him at L-1, but I had no idea if Kuz would want to hammer WK. I remember him saying that he was considering WK as town. Therefore I didn't think a WK lynch would happen. We were in a situation where a No Lynch was a real possibility. Therefore I went with the next most viable lynch in my scumpool, which was Panta. You're being a silly Acrostic. What else leads you to believe I'm scum?

Bleck. Fine. I completely missed your comment on BPC which was a mistake on my part. Out of curiosity, would you accept a lynch on the basis of [3] in my #1033 as you are not a PR and could produce leads for town D3?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Gonna have to wait on responses from me, guys, until like... Wednesday? Considering replacing out because I'm so ****ing swamped right now. Currently at Brawl in Berlin 2 (70+ people, germany counts it as an international) and after I get back I have to pack for my trip to the states and then leave for the states. The very soonest I can respond on anything is wednesday night, more realistically thursday. If this is a problem, I can replace out.

 

[Seikend]

If you feel that something is out of context, then you should care about how that post has been misconstrued as it could be scum trying to push a lynch on you. It's not optimal town play to be apathetic when we have one mislynch available and we want to lynch scum.

I think I've clearly stated that I think of you as opportunistic and leaning scum. However, you have been responsive. We don't need answers from you now, we need answers from BPC and Zen.

Are "lesser scumpicks" the equivalent of "null?" I felt that there was a lack of commitment in the reads your provided. To some extent I can understand if it's because you just replaced in, however you should have at least pressed some questions on Werekill|Panta|me before pushing on with a lynch. Were you so sure of your scum picks that didn't warrant questions?

I didn't ask questions at that point because there was nothing to ask. I had replaced in. All the content was already there, and most things scummy had already been questioned before I even had an opportunity to.

Bleck. Fine. I completely missed your comment on BPC which was a mistake on my part. Out of curiosity, would you accept a lynch on the basis of [3] in my #1033 as you are not a PR and could produce leads for town D3?

No. As you said, we have one mislynch available. And at this point in the game PRs are not that useful; Strong players in late game are what we need.

I skimmed but iirc you only had potential leads if I flipped scum. What would you do when I flip town?

Why on earth would we go into MYLO lynching a VT for "leads", when instead we could just try and lynch scum toDay?

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Gonna have to wait on responses from me, guys, until like... Wednesday? Considering replacing out because I'm so ****ing swamped right now. Currently at Brawl in Berlin 2 (70+ people, germany counts it as an international) and after I get back I have to pack for my trip to the states and then leave for the states. The very soonest I can respond on anything is wednesday night, more realistically thursday. If this is a problem, I can replace out.

I think replacing out would be best. Wednesday night is the deadline for the lynch so when you come back you're going to deal with a rebuttal, read pages of posts, and then place a rushed vote. If you replace out you will be able to enjoy your Brawl in Berlin and coming to the States. From your description it seems like Wednesday falls shortly after the Brawl in Berlin and before the trip to the States. If this is going to be vacancy to deadline to vacancy then I think replacing out would be in your best interest and also ours. Please request replacement asap if this is the case.

@mod: Requesting prod on Zεη for 48 hour violation between posts #908 and #1029

 

[th3kuzinator]

No. As you said, we have one mislynch available. And at this point in the game PRs are not that useful; Strong players in late game are what we need.

I skimmed but iirc you only had potential leads if I flipped scum. What would you do when I flip town?

Why on earth would we go into MYLO lynching a VT for "leads", when instead we could just try and lynch scum toDay?

Agreed. Your question to Seikend was a pretty bad one because you're trying to clear two people off his scum flip while not letting onto what reads you gain off his town flip. TownSeik knows he's flipping town and ScumSeik will pretend he's flipping town so he will refuse your offer regardless of his alignment, which is the right call ofc.

He's also right that we only have one more ML, and a Seikend lynch based on the criteria that you would get two town reads on the off chance he flips scum is not something I want to see happen either.

But you know what would greatly improve our chances of lynching correctly toDay? Mass-claiming.

And yes @ budget replacing out if it's that close to deadline.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

I also want a replacement for Zεη.

 

[th3kuzinator]

So when we don't have a clear on the roster, the order of mass claiming is usually decided through labeling the order of your picks with numbers. 1 means you want them to claim first, while 4 means you want them claiming last (you do not include yourself on your own list and 2 people have already claimed). At the end we tally up the points for each player, and the person with the least amount goes first and vice a versa.

Here's mine.

Acrostic - 3
SangfroidWarrior - 4
Budget Player Cadet_ - 1
Zen (IC) - 2

 

[th3kuzinator]

Well I guess it's 1 through 5 for Werekill and Seikend. Same thing, though.

 

[Xivii]

Acrostic you post too much. Be quiet. You're the one making it difficult to read up with all your unecessary posts. I recently lost computer access at my home so most of the time I'm on Wiinet. I will be able to post sometime today though.

Everytime I have been posting, I have been very clear with my stances so I don't know why you guys are acting like I haven't given that.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

I think I've clearly stated that I think of you as opportunistic and leaning scum. However, you have been responsive. We don't need answers from you now, we need answers from BPC and Zen.

I disagree. If I were opportunistic then I could have pushed on SangfroidWarrior after she lied or went for Werekill when pressure was on him D1. I refused both these alternatives as I had a town read on both of them after questioning them about why they lied and did a reading on Werekill finding out that I liked her early day play and saw it as aggressively town. I think that on the surface, Zεη would be considered more opportunistic than me given his switch voting behavior without offering any rationale for his behavior.

If you're referring to your own lynch as being opportunistic then you're being egocentric as the decision for me was anything but that as I favored a policy lynch on a null tell which was you over either of my town reads. BPC is going to be replaced and Zεη has been a minimalist. Waiting for answers from either of these two is not going to be productive which means that you should be questioning your next scum suspect outside of these two which should be Werekill|me.

No. As you said, we have one mislynch available. And at this point in the game PRs are not that useful; Strong players in late game are what we need. I skimmed but iirc you only had potential leads if I flipped scum. What would you do when I flip town? Why on earth would we go into MYLO lynching a VT for "leads", when instead we could just try and lynch scum toDay?

[/Quote]

I feel that strong players wouldn't wait for lurker slots to give feedback or blatantly make evaluation changes without bothering to question targets. I feel that your play is passive and reactionary in comparison to th3kuzinator|Werekill and isn't proactive in the sense that you are waiting for BPC|Zεη when you have a null-scum read on Werekill and you are changing your mind. Usually this the type of situation that would warrant questions to Werekill if he is at a transition point in your read.

Again I don't know if I'm being nitpicky or this is a play style disagreement, but I just feel that you're not building on your reads and I don't know what to make of your armchair-esque style. If you are town then I am inclined to fos BPC|Zεη and will have a better impression of th3kuzinator|SangfroidWarrior. Again if you are targeting scum then I still don't know why you aren't focusing on your null-scum read that is active today. It just seems like there is dissonance between your foses and your actions that is masked by passive playing which I don't really like at the moment.

 

[Xivii]

And what do you know.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

And what do you know.

Request replacement please~

 

[Xivii]

You know, that really pisses me off.

 

[th3kuzinator]

If you are town then I am inclined to fos BPC|Zεη and will have a better impression of th3kuzinator|SangfroidWarrior.

Why ?

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

To be honest I found it suspicious that you continually kept on stalling yesterday to hammer on Seikend and then he was replaced when the votes were on him at L-1. I also find it suspicious that SangfroidWarrior had him as a scum pick along with Werekill, but chose to lynch Panta at the end of the day. Therefore I see a Seikend flip as town or scum beneficial to town.

More or less what I stated in my #1033.

Zεη what do you think of th3kuzinator's #1017 and the idea of mass claiming #1027?

 

[th3kuzinator]

Wait wait wait. You're kidding right?

I already explained why I wasn't even home to be able to hammer Seikend and WTF are you talking about wrt Sang? She was against the Panta lynch from the very beginning and fought that lynch until 11:30PM when she had to vote to avoid a NL. She also had a larger scumread on Werekill iirc and wanted his lynch way more than Seik's because Phoenix wasnt there to defend himself and then votes switched off of him by the time he replaced in.

That also still doesn't explain why you'd gain worse images of Zen and BPC.

 

[th3kuzinator]

You also still havn't given me an updated response as to what you think of mass-claiming. You said you could see the advantages gained by it and I've since explained away all the qualms that you brought up yet you havn't commented on it.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

I already explained why I wasn't even home to be able to hammer Seikend...

I believe the content, but not the motive. If someone is going to be occupied with something then they can choose to perform other tasks sooner or latter. Being occupied with life doesn't explain stalling a hammer, even though you did note your absence repeatedly throughout D1 and #1040 seems somewhat plausible, I have reservations taking full stock into believing that there were no ulterior motives attached to the decision.

... and WTF are you talking about wrt Sang? She was against the Panta lynch from the very beginning and fought that lynch until 11:30PM when she had to vote to avoid a NL. She also had a larger scumread on Werekill iirc and wanted his lynch way more than Seik's because Phoenix wasnt there to defend himself and then votes switched off of him by the time he replaced in.

When I was doing my re-read of Seikend when he joined in #777 deviations in SangfoirdWarrior's behavior seemed more apparent. However when reading with later material she did seem to vacillate, so perhaps I may have been too hasty on that analysis of the lynch.

That also still doesn't explain why you'd gain worse images of Zen and BPC.

PoE. If Seikend flips town and my suspicious were unwarranted along with my town read on Werekill, then that leaves BPC|Zen. Re-posting the earlier part of [3] that I omitted for your convenience:

I have stated this many times however my questions at the end of D1 to BPC led me to the possibility I stated in #997 that a Seikend|BPC scum team are not likely based on the responses I got from #723.

BPC was pretty adamant about the Seikend slot. Therefore it wouldn't surprise me if this was a scum push on an inactive slot considering your reads on BPC from D1. I will concede and admit that my reads are better off with a Seikend scum flip than a Seikend town flip... and that I may have been a little biased as a lot of my work has been on looking at Seikend as scum and the connections this flip would have on other players. Also I found your #1017 to be wifom and hope that this is not the major reason behind your town read on him.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Your main reasoning for wanting Seikend dead is that it gives you connections. Your main reasoning, barring connections, that Seikend is scummy is his stance on wanting Werekill dead but then going with the Panta lynch. First of all I understand the reasoning behind his decision but secondly, I don't see how you could give a pass to BPC who did the exact same thing to a much worse degree yet find it condemning when Seikend does it.

Your reasoning for why we're connected is also bull. Sorry I didn't care enough about mafia when I had 20 kids over and I was drunk passed all recognition. You should be grateful I had enough foresight to even remember to come back and place a vote on a lynch that I thought was feasible instead of ignoring the thread entirely. Before that when I was giving people time to have some discussion, I was literally not at home. I don't see how why that shouldn't have stopped me and if you're still trying to pull that connection, you're knee jerking it hard.

@PoE, so basically the only reason you find us to be scummy is due to our relationship with a person you think is scum who hasn't even flipped yet. How does his town flip clear us? It doesn't. It just pollutes your connection based case. Sang or I could easily be scum but not with Seik and you'd be clearing us for absolutely no reason. Open your eyes. Lynching Seik for connections is absolute trash. I've already explained why the connections you're drawing between Seik/me Seik/sang don't make any sense and I've explained above that we're right back to square 1 upon a townSeik flip.

I don't want to see anymore on this argument of ScumSeik if its purely for connection purposes because its just a terrible idea. If you're lynching Seik, lynch him based on his actual play and then look at connections after his flip. Don't lynch him for those connections.

1017 is not the major reason for my town read and I explained in multiple posts that I think he's town from both player's content.

Please respond to my 1066

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

You also still havn't given me an updated response as to what you think of mass-claiming. You said you could see the advantages gained by it and I've since explained away all the qualms that you brought up yet you havn't commented on it.

I had to think about it before coming to a decision and I think that this is a good move for today. If scum chooses not to gamble on a PR claim then there will be another clear and if one mafia does decide to cc a PR then that narrows things down considerably to the point of having a guaranteed mafia lynch.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Unvote: Seikend

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

th3kuzinator - 3
SangfroidWarrior - 4
Budget Player Cadet_ - 1
Zen (IC) - 2

 

[th3kuzinator]

I'd like lists from Seik, Sang and Werekill when they get here.

BPC is probably going to get replaced and we should get on that ASAP so he's here to claim.

I want Zen's general musings from toDay.

 

[Seikend]

Acrostic - 3
SangfroidWarrior - 5
Budget Player Cadet_ - 1
Zen (IC) - 2
Kuz - 4

 

[Lore]

Well, I say that we force BPC to claim first and see what happens.

I'm still against a mass claim, but put BPC at the top of my list for first.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Well say we do decide to mass claim for whatever reason, we want to have as much time as possible to do so.

Just give us a list so if the time comes we can just do it straight away. If we don't end up doing it, then its just a list.

 

[Xivii]

Initiating read through.

 

[th3kuzinator]

We should be doing things way in advance please.

I want lists, stop lurking.

 

[Xivii]

Still cool with Gargaglione as town. Sure, he was being pri silly to begin with but when he did say relevant things, they were good.

Can you show me the posts you felt were good and why they were good?

 

[Xivii]

I don't like how Zen keeps flip-flopping around like crazy. It feels like he's trying to please everyone by looking like he's doing a ton of scumhunting. Or at least, that's what my gut's telling me.

Show me how my flip flopping in anyway looked like it was to please anyone.

Also you basically said you'd lynch anyone in this post.

 

[Xivii]

I'm not hopping on a Werekill wagon for today. I am also not going to lynch SangfroidWarrior. Both come across as town to me for today. I skimmed through the recent comments and will give responses. However there is little to no impetus for me to lynch either one of my town reads for today. With Seikend replacing in, I will consider a BPC lynch.

This was absolutely horrible. Scrambling for a last minute lynch. Werekill should have been lynched.