Q&A New to Yoshi? (or not) Ask your questions here!

[Limbose]

How do you guys usually deal with shield pressure? I can never seem to quickly Nair out of shield because I can never tell when I'm in shieldstun.

There was a shield flicker indication for this in Melee, but here, you just kinda gotta watch the lag I guess. Get a feel for how hard each move hits.

People seem to always shieldgrab me because I approach a lot with aerials. Basically if i'm above them, they just shield and wait. What's a good way to counter this behavior?

Easy answer: Don't approach. Harder and riskier answer: Fair their shield really close to the ground and then pressure properly from there. Jabs on shield are safe for the jabs, but after jab 2 you get hit by quick stuff. You can down-b on shield, even run away and pivot grab if they don't have super fast stuff or a long grab. Mix it up. Fair is very safe on shield when done at a proper height and l-canceled, so you've got options to prevent yourself from being hit immediately, at least.

Also, something I wanted to confirm about Yoshi's Nair in general, it seems to do a lot more damage or at least knockback if you hit them within the first few frames of it, rather than it's standing frames. Is this actually true?

...You mean a flub hit? It should happen all the time, it lasts pretty long. The start of nair is a kill move, the flub can gimp or just act as a wall for a little bit. It should be pretty obvious there's a difference of you've spent some time using Yoshi.

 

[Zylix]

Easy answer: Don't approach. Harder and riskier answer: Fair their shield really close to the ground and then pressure properly from there. Jabs on shield are safe for the jabs, but after jab 2 you get hit by quick stuff. You can down-b on shield, even run away and pivot grab if they don't have super fast stuff or a long grab. Mix it up. Fair is very safe on shield when done at a proper height and l-canceled, so you've got options to prevent yourself from being hit immediately, at least.


...You mean a flub hit? It should happen all the time, it lasts pretty long. The start of nair is a kill move, the flub can gimp or just act as a wall for a little bit. It should be pretty obvious there's a difference of you've spent some time using Yoshi.

Thanks for the answer! Yeah the flub hit thing is pretty obvious, but I couldn't find anything about it and wanted to make sure it wasn't just in my head.

So speaking of not approaching, Yoshi does pretty good at punishing most approaches, especially against melee characters like Captain Falcon, but something that I just can't figure out how to deal with is ranged and fast movement playstyles, such as SHFFL'ing Ivysaur, or Lucas/Ness who have movement options to poke safely and dodge just about anything.

Of course, against lower level players it's not a problem, but I can't seem to keep up with higher level players that have those playstyles.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated :D

 

[Limbose]

So speaking of not approaching, Yoshi does pretty good at punishing most approaches, especially against melee characters like Captain Falcon, but something that I just can't figure out how to deal with is ranged and fast movement playstyles, such as SHFFL'ing Ivysaur, or Lucas/Ness who have movement options to poke safely and dodge just about anything.

I'm not sure if it's the best option, but something I find incredibly useful in those kinds of matchups are eggs. Throw some eggs and disrupt their movement and spammy stuff. Run under the eggs to threaten their space and wait for them to panic and make a mistake. Or, if you see the chance and they shield the egg, grab them. You kind of have to play dodgeball, hit (or at least threaten) with your projectiles while avoiding theirs and wait for a safe time to get in their face or something else effective.

 

[Space Mercutio]

So why DJC Nair out of shield instead of single SH Nair? Does it have anything to do with Yoshi's DJ armor?

Also, when is a good time to use eggs? Can I use them as a combo extender?

What's a parry?

Finally, what's Egg Roll used for? For the most part, I use it to get back to stage, but that seems to leave me open for a punish if I don't pop out fast enough. I read something about egg roll techchases somewhere, but it was just a passing mention of it.

 

[Mumbo]

So why DJC Nair out of shield instead of single SH Nair? Does it have anything to do with Yoshi's DJ armor?

Also, when is a good time to use eggs? Can I use them as a combo extender?

What's a parry?

Finally, what's Egg Roll used for? For the most part, I use it to get back to stage, but that seems to leave me open for a punish if I don't pop out fast enough. I read something about egg roll techchases somewhere, but it was just a passing mention of it.

1. SH vs DJC nair OoS: both are useful in different situations. DJC nair allows you to turn around nair OoS and gives you a free-er range of movement. Since it is a djc, if you hit it, you also have more potential followup. It also gives you armor frames. Done perfect, a djc nair oos has armor frame 7 and hitboxes starting from frame 10. SH nair has no armor but hitboxes starting frame 9. When you SH nair, you typically want to SH backwards or onto a platform to get away. SH nair is better as a safe "get off me" tool for close calculated pressure where djc nair is used to either hard punish a mistake on shield or to abuse the armor and turn the situation around. I've also seen people like odds doing djc nair backwards, no turn around, but that's pretty difficult and may require a specific control scheme. It's a little bt safer than djc nair but doesnt give you as many openings.

2: eggs: typically I throw eggs at people trying to come down, particularly after sh uair > rising uair. You should also use eggs as supplementary edgegaurds against certain characters. I like to use them most against chars with immobile startup times on their recoveries (lucas, ness, spacies, etc...) and characters with stalls that spend a long time recovering (link, tink, samus, etc...). Eggs also have applications in neutral and covering options, but you should talk to @ TomBoComBo or @ pugwishbone17 about that.

3. Parrying: parrying is a technique in melee where yoshi could absorb a hitbox with his invincible preshielding animation and jump out to punish. It doesn't work in pm so you don't have to worry about it, but if you are interested, watch amsa in melee. A lot of moves that look like they'd hit just don't. That's usually a parry.

4. Eggroll: eggroll is esentially on useful as a recovery in 3.6, if even that. I'ts gotten nerfed a lot. It was useful for movement techchases combos approaches etc in previous versions but now it just kinda sucks. Remember you should only use it a maximum of one time in the air. Anything past that and you are actually hurting your recovery.

 

[TomBoComBo]

So why DJC Nair out of shield instead of single SH Nair? Does it have anything to do with Yoshi's DJ armor?

Also, when is a good time to use eggs? Can I use them as a combo extender?

I generally like to SF Nair OoS for changing my spacing. You can waveland out of it and at least for my style, lets you dictate where and when neutral will start again.

eggs, as @ Mumbo said, are good for harassing people's recoveries, dependent on MU of course, and are wonderful combo extenders/breakers/starters.
Every time I get an opponent off stage, I immediately throw an egg so it either kisses the ledge on the way past it or lands on the ledge. then I'll throw eggs to harass the opponent, but I almost never aim directly for them unless they're a fast faller or they have an iffy recovery when hit with an egg. Ususally I try to aim in front of them, not really to hit them, but to force them to take an extra second to think about how they want to recover. To 99% of players, eggs are to be avoided because they tack on percent, so they will avoid them at even a sub-conscience level, use that to space them out and limit their options. If they're at low percents, the egg to the ledge is good because it either forces them to guess where the egg is going to land and what option they can take. If it hits them and you're in position, it can serve them up for a downB. If the opponent is camping the ledge, eggs can make them more nervous than you being there trying to Fair them from ledge. If the opponent stays too long on the ledge, they almost always will be hit by the egg. When they go to drop DJ to get back to ledge, if they've stayed too long, they have no invincibility. Egg serves them up for downB or a Dsmash for kill.
On stage, eggs are a valuable tool to start and extend combos. If you're having trouble in neutral, toss an egg while retreating or approaching (on stage you always want to throw eggs while in the air so you're still mobile).
For approaching: Same as off stage, you almost never want to aim right at them, because they can just get out of the way or run at you. The first time, aim the egg so it lands just in front of them, maximum half their roll distance in front of them. If the opponent reacts with shield, you get pressure or a grab. If they react by rolling away, you can follow or you can toss another egg at them with the same kind of trajectory (land in front). Remember how they react to eggs and keep that in mind when you want to create pressure or approach with them. If they react with shield every time, it's safe to aim right at them and get a free grab or force a roll. If they react with movement, aim the egg to where they usually go, be it jumping dashing dancing whatever.
Adding into the idea of using eggs to approach and win neutral, the arc of the egg is important as well. If your opponent has trouble reading eggs or doesn't know how to react to them, throwing high arcing eggs, even randomly, can give you a mental edge. If you throw them high, you can get closer to your opponent to zoom the camera in so they can't see the egg or where it'll fall. This leads into another interesting idea with eggs. Throwing a high arc to the middle of the stage can seem meaningless, but what if you lose neutral there? what if you get grabbed right were it will land? The opponent gets egged, and all of a sudden, you have momentum and spacing for a dtilt or a grab. Against aggressive opponents, you can dictate where you're "vulnerable" and capitalize on the high arc egg that you tossed before hand. This is more of a trick than a reliable way to always win neutral, but it is a mixup and it is a way to hamper your opponent's momentum.
Last point I want to hit on is the idea of extending your combos with eggs. In this, the eggs are used in the same way as in neutral, it's up to you to capitalize on how the opponent reacts. Personally, when I knock an opponent any distance away that I can't immediately follow up, I toss an egg after them to cover a panic jump or a landing or a DIaway. Yoshi has every kind of arc you need to cover every character's fall speed and horizontal movement (not counting jiggs or floats). You can sometime place an egg so if they jump of continue DIing away, they'll get hit. My friends used to call them magnetic eggs because they appeared to follow you as you fell. Anyways, eggs are wonderful in the event that the opponent will land on a platform or land on stage in tumble. If you hit them, they are put into stun long enough for you (who should already be after them anyways) to get to them and get a free hit. If they tech in place to avoid the hit, you can get shield pressure or restart neutral, If they roll either way to avoid the egg, you get a free punish on them if you read the roll.

All of it plays into itself and followups are only limited on your reaction time and your imagination. If there're any points I missed, @ pugwishbone17 please fill in the blanks.

 

[Getsafe]

How do you guys usually deal with shield pressure? I can never seem to quickly Nair out of shield because I can never tell when I'm in shieldstun.

People seem to always shieldgrab me because I approach a lot with aerials. Basically if i'm above them, they just shield and wait. What's a good way to counter this behavior?

Also, something I wanted to confirm about Yoshi's Nair in general, it seems to do a lot more damage or at least knockback if you hit them within the first few frames of it, rather than it's standing frames. Is this actually true?

Nair OoS is the easiest and fastest to pull off, with good payoff. Double Jump Land Down Smash OoS is a few frames slower and harder to pull off but with huge payoff. Double Jump Land Down B OoS is really hard to pull off, but faster than downsmash and better or worse payoff depending on opposing character, %, and Stage.

But Nair is usually a good bet until you get all that down, plus mixing in rolls and spot dodge. Grab is terrible OoS but use it if they're dumb and dash attack your shield.

The only aerials you should be engaging shields with are Fair and Bair (and Dair but only if you cross up) Fair and Bair into most of your moveset is safe on shield, so mix up your moves and timings a lot.
Ie: if you go For Fair jab1 jab2 and they keep shield grabbing you after Jab 2, try throwing in Fair jab1 down B, or Fair jab 1 dsmash, or Wavedash back+grab or whatever. Practice your options a lot and stay unpredictable.

Also, as long as you aren't RIGHT next to them, Dsmash is _relatively_ safe on shield. It will push most characters out of grab range, but I'm sure wavedash OoS and certain aerials can still punish you so be careful

And Nair is a sex kick so yes that's true, it's power decays the longer it's out

 

[Sape]

Hi, not sure if there is a list of yoshi tech somwhere but I recently saw some awesome stuff from eyeheartlovetap.

http://www.twitch.tv/thesmashingillini/v/13596817?3h43min

Especially at 3:43:13 he does a djc fair where he reverses his momentum (right->left) but Yoshi still looks to the old direction (right).
Can anyone tell me how to do this?

Edit: Ok I got a few times if I do the claw and instantly c-stick right after jumping. I cant really do it when I hold the controller normally, is there another way to do it?

 

[Limbose]

Hi, not sure if there is a list of yoshi tech somwhere but I recently saw some awesome stuff from eyeheartlovetap.

http://www.twitch.tv/thesmashingillini/v/13596817?3h43min

Especially at 3:43:13 he does a djc fair where he reverses his momentum (right->left) but Yoshi still looks to the old direction (right).
Can anyone tell me how to do this?

Edit: Ok I got a few times if I do the claw and instantly c-stick right after jumping. I cant really do it when I hold the controller normally, is there another way to do it?

Trigger jump. I personally use Z to jump. Allows you to jump and attack with different parts of your hand, overall gives you more control over what you're doing.

 

[Zylix]

Hi, not sure if there is a list of yoshi tech somwhere but I recently saw some awesome stuff from eyeheartlovetap.

http://www.twitch.tv/thesmashingillini/v/13596817?3h43min

Especially at 3:43:13 he does a djc fair where he reverses his momentum (right->left) but Yoshi still looks to the old direction (right).
Can anyone tell me how to do this?

Edit: Ok I got a few times if I do the claw and instantly c-stick right after jumping. I cant really do it when I hold the controller normally, is there another way to do it?

When you use double jump in the direction you're not facing, there is a small window (5 or 7 frames I think) where you can cancel the double jump with any aerial and stay facing the same direction, with the new momentum change still active. If you delay the DJC just a bit, you'll be turned around for your aerial.

Since the window is fairly small, you just kinda have to play around with it until you train your fingers to do either way on command. It might seem uncontrollable at first, but you'll get the hang of it.

My favorite use for this is to jump away from the opponent, facing away from them in the air, then DJC back towards them, using your Bair quick enough that you do sudden approaching Bairs (still facing away from them but now moving towards them).

Personally, I've found it best to claw the controller, with my index finger on Y and my thumb on C-stick. This way I have the most options/control with my aerial movement and attacks, which is vital for Yoshi.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I'm a fan of RAR wavedash turnaround DJC Nair

 

[Getsafe]

Yeah trigger jump is the way to go. I map my R to a jump because I do all my shielding, L canceling and wave dashing with L.

It's extremely convenient.
I originally started doing it for hover stuff with mewtwo but it works really well for any DJC character (Ness rising Dair edgeguard sooooo easy)

 

[Damp]

Nah just use default controls.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I turn tap jump off and that's it

 

[Feral Cadence]

I've been playing with X changed to taunt/footstool for a long time now, and still have yet to incorporate it into my play.

 

[theOVEN]

I sometimes think about doing anything except default controls, but then I realize I can't do maybe half of the AT I want right now with default anyway and go to work on my inputs

 

[ComeT____]

Thanks for the answer! Yeah the flub hit thing is pretty obvious, but I couldn't find anything about it and wanted to make sure it wasn't just in my head.

So speaking of not approaching, Yoshi does pretty good at punishing most approaches, especially against melee characters like Captain Falcon, but something that I just can't figure out how to deal with is ranged and fast movement playstyles, such as SHFFL'ing Ivysaur, or Lucas/Ness who have movement options to poke safely and dodge just about anything.

Of course, against lower level players it's not a problem, but I can't seem to keep up with higher level players that have those playstyles.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated :D

Agreed

 

[Getsafe]

I turn tap jump off and that's it

Why?
I know you're a good player so don't take this the wrong way, but Utilt with tap jump on is really really easy, and the benefits to keeping it on far outweigh not having to worry about an accidental jump (which again, is easy in the first place)

 

[ComeT____]

Yeah I keep it on just to be safe

 

[TomBoComBo]

basically what ComeT__ said except keeping it off, to be 100% safe to not do jump by accident. It's mostly for aerial stuff when wanting to Uair and not wanting to jump by accident (I don't always use Cstick). It's so I make less movement mistakes. Preference really. If I want a DJC I can hit the jump button fast enough to do the same with OoS Dsmash etc.

 

[ComeT____]

Nah just use default controls.

I agree

 

[pugwishbone17]

I used no tap jump until I started playing Melee seriously, and have since changed PM to match that. not screwing up DJC up airs is easy once you get used to. Also tap jump is actually superior to not having it because of how it will buffer a double jump during yoshi's jump squat making DJL in place/oos way more consistent than just mapping jump to some other button like I used to have it. Other than default controls, I have footstool on X because grounded fair to footstool tech chase is the easiest thing ever.

 

[Damp]

I gotta try that grounded fair to footstool stuff. Sounds neat. I usually just go for a second fair if I want to build damage, or a rising bair into nair.

 

[Sodo]

I've been getting in to Project M, and I'm wondering why Yoshi is considered one of the worst in the game. I see it posted everywhere, but I never get any explanation. Is it because he can't parry in Project M?

 

[Getsafe]

I've been getting in to Project M, and I'm wondering why Yoshi is considered one of the worst in the game. I see it posted everywhere, but I never get any explanation. Is it because he can't parry in Project M?

Idk where you read that but it's really wrong lol. Yoshi is mad good in PM, even with the huge nerfs he got in 3.6

He's just very under-represented

 

[Damp]

Idk where you read that but it's really wrong lol. Yoshi is mad good in PM, even with the huge nerfs he got in 3.6

He's just very under-represented

What you just said is straight up wrong. Yoshi is very bad right now. A lot of his moves have strange hitbox/hurtbox interactions. His best option in neutral is to djc an aerial, which means if he gets hit he's dead. His side-b is worse than melee. And there are numerous bugs with his shield. Yoshi is really awful right now.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I need to put out more VODs lol Yoshi is solid mid tier

 

[Limbose]

His best option in neutral is to djc an aerial

Lol wat

 

[Damp]

Lol wat

literally his only approach option other than a grab, which gets shut down by throwing out aerials.

 

[Getsafe]

You're playing the neutral totally wrong then lol. Sounds like it's just the choices you make that are bad, not the character

 

[Scatz]

His neutral is okay, but the changes have polarized the balance his options could've been. Previous builds had his options heavily towards grabbing, so it wasn't correct either.

 

[Sodo]

What is the optimal playstyle with Yoshi in PM? Egg camping to bait and punish? I like the way Yoshi handles in PM but I never played him in Melee or Brawl so I'm totally lost. At least with Fox, Falco, Marth, etc. I have some knowledge on what to do.

 

[Scatz]

Depends on where you decide to take him, but he's a tech heavy character in general. His best movement comes from platform wavelanding and how fast his fastfall moves. He uses armor to trade for an opportunity to get in or goes for a grab to get guaranteed followups. There's definitely videos around, it's easier for you to watch and then create a foundation than to explain how to play him from scratch.

 

[Getsafe]

Yeah basically you really shouldn't be approaching much.

Stay slippery with your movement, egg the **** out of campers/for edge guards and juggles, punish everything.

Down smash is OP.
Grounded DownB is OP.

Learn Double Jump Land for Out of Shield and platform shenanigans.

There's more but I'm not the person to write a guide. Watch sets of Tombo, Hamyojo, and Burntsocks

 

[Sodo]

Depends on where you decide to take him, but he's a tech heavy character in general. His best movement comes from platform wavelanding and how fast his fastfall moves. He uses armor to trade for an opportunity to get in or goes for a grab to get guaranteed followups. There's definitely videos around, it's easier for you to watch and then create a foundation than to explain how to play him from scratch.

Yeah basically you really shouldn't be approaching much.

Stay slippery with your movement, egg the **** out of campers/for edge guards and juggles, punish everything.

Down smash is OP.
Grounded DownB is OP.

Learn Double Jump Land for Out of Shield and platform shenanigans.

There's more but I'm not the person to write a guide. Watch sets of Tombo, Hamyojo, and Burntsocks

Thanks for the information guys. Tombo is actually one of the reasons I was checking out Yoshi, very crisp but tricky at the same time.

EDIT: Also, in you guys' opinion, what is the best version of Yoshi throughout PM? I'm asking because PM All Stars came out and the best version of every character (2.1 Lucario, 3.02 Pit, etc.) are all in it, and I want to know if the Yoshi we have (3.02) is the best one.

 

[Getsafe]

EDIT: Also, in you guys' opinion, what is the best version of Yoshi throughout PM? I'm asking because PM All Stars came out and the best version of every character (2.1 Lucario, 3.02 Pit, etc.) are all in it, and I want to know if the Yoshi we have (3.02) is the best one.

It probably is. I didn't touch yoshi until the very end of 3.5 so I wouldn't know, but that's how it sounds to me

 

[TomBoComBo]

3.02 Yoshi was ********. eggroll was broken and everything was safe. same went for most of the cast though, so it's up to interpretation.

and @ S Sodo thank you, I hope to put out more material soon. I like to assume I play Yoshi close to optimally, focusing on mixups, conditioning, reads and heavy punishes. One key element of all mind games in smash is forcing a reactions from your opponent. in high octane moments you can kill momentum by approaching with an empty hop and punishing whatever reaction your opponent makes. Of course there's wayyy more to that, but I don't know if I should go into detail or not. It seems every time I do put out something excessive it gets ignored. What do you guys think?

 

[Sodo]

3.02 Yoshi was ********. eggroll was broken and everything was safe. same went for most of the cast though, so it's up to interpretation.

and @ S Sodo thank you, I hope to put out more material soon. I like to assume I play Yoshi close to optimally, focusing on mixups, conditioning, reads and heavy punishes. One key element of all mind games in smash is forcing a reactions from your opponent. in high octane moments you can kill momentum by approaching with an empty hop and punishing whatever reaction your opponent makes. Of course there's wayyy more to that, but I don't know if I should go into detail or not. It seems every time I do put out something excessive it gets ignored. What do you guys think?

I didn't know you were on Smashboards! But yes, I'll take any info I can get. I'm currently grinding out movement and tech skill in both Melee and PM, so anything you have on PM Yoshi would be worth a read.

 

[TomBoComBo]

If people want me to write a guide, I need to have feedback and I need more than just one person to want me to do it lol.

 

[Getsafe]

I think yoshi is an open enough character that there is no definitive "correct" way to play him in anything more than a generalized sense. We should maybe start a tech thread with some general applications listed and then people can reference that along with the MU thread for a pseudo guide